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PHS
07-29-2008, 01:39 PM
This question was posed to me yesterday and when I started thinking about it I didn't exactly have a clear answer. Is it ok for professionals to apply "homeowner" materials like you can buy at Home Depot? Unless it's an RUP or there's something specific on the label forbidding it, homeowners can pretty much buy whatever we use if they wanted to. After looking at some labels of products online they don't say anything about not being used by professionals. I've never seen a list anywhere of products that can't be used by professionals. Is there a technicality that I'm missing? The only difference I could see in the labels is the WPS requirements but that wouldn't apply to me anyway.

bugpage
07-29-2008, 01:47 PM
Usually consumer labeled insecticides are just lower percentage of active ingredient and more expensive, kind of like herbicides. Licensed applicators usually have the ability to purchase higher percentage active ingredient products, but many times they are the same or similar ingredient.

Whitey4
07-29-2008, 03:49 PM
It's "OK", but not so "OK". Here in NY, we have to have a contract before applying any pesticides, and portions of each control material's label must be attached to that contract for the customer's signature.

If I am using a readilly available retail product, the customer might think "Hey, I could do this myself and save some money." So, for that fact alone, I avoid using any retail products, although I got some Ortho 3 way very cheaply this year and used that, but spiked it with Quicksilver. At least that way I sort of covered my bases by using a "professional" product in the tank mix.

Scotts has some decent "pro products" available wholesale, but for the same reason, I avoid using any Scotts' stuff. I use mostly Bayer, Anderson's and Lebanon products. Stuff like Sedge Hammer is retail, but not easy to find. Few people even know that nut sedge is treatable, and even a lot of LCO's don't seem to know about it, or at least they aren't selling it as an extra app. I made some sales this year just by dropping a "nut sedge" sales flyer off at properties that had bad nut sedge problems. Why their LCO wasn't selling or treating for it mystifies me.

But, back on topic, ther is no law in NY that says I can't use retail controls.

bugpage
07-29-2008, 04:07 PM
NY is a different animal anyway. There are many insecticides that are not available for sale in NY.

I guess the simple fact that consumer products need no licensing leaves the door open that anyone can purchase and use them. It only makes sense.

We mainly offer MGK Co products. They have a good line.

Marcos
07-29-2008, 04:54 PM
Usually consumer labeled insecticides are just lower percentage of active ingredient and more expensive, kind of like herbicides. Licensed applicators usually have the ability to purchase higher percentage active ingredient products, but many times they are the same or similar ingredient.

This is true...

But on the opposite side of the spectrum, homeowners, legally, have every right in the world to go into places like JDL / Lesco, and buy anything that's on the shelf, so long that it's not a RUP in that given state, or something that needs prequalification user-training from the seller to buy it, such as termiticides like Termidor.

Homeowners can buy 41% Roundup Pro, Momentum products, Q4, Sedgehammer, Merit & Mach II, Talstar, or whatever, so long as they're not RUP.

State pesticide licenses are enforced by pesticide agents at the point of application, not at the point of vendor's sale. That's why non-RUP can be bought easily on the internet, etc.
RUP sale of pesticides are recorded at the point of sale, for later reporting to the specific state it's sold in.

Anyone can apply for a RUP license. Even a homeowner, that has a peach orchard, for example. You don't have to be running a business.

Of course, the vendor like JDL / Lesco who normally caters to businesses, reserves the right to charge extremely high 'retail' tiers of pricing to homeowners. But in the real world, this isn't always done the way upper mgmt likes to see it, mainly because 'higher volume' residential customers, with huge properties and their own tractors & booms etc, will balk at the exorbitant prices given to them at the counter, and quite often seek out other competitors who will gladly work with them.

bugpage
07-29-2008, 05:01 PM
Yes, my comparison was more on the lines that consumers usually dont know where to look other than Lowes and Home Depot or want to spend the time to look, which gives licensed applicators more of a selection of higher percentage active ingredient products. I think it is fair to say that the licensed applicator would mostly shop a Lesco over a Lowes or Home Depot, just from a price point.

Marcos
07-29-2008, 05:30 PM
Yes, my comparison was more on the lines that consumers usually dont know where to look other than Lowes and Home Depot or want to spend the time to look, which gives licensed applicators more of a selection of higher percentage active ingredient products. I think it is fair to say that the licensed applicator would mostly shop a Lesco over a Lowes or Home Depot, just from a price point.

I don't know about you, but I constantly get bombarded with inquiries by people, mainly neighbors and friends of my customers, wanting to know where I buy my materials... wholesale.

There are tons of younger do-it-yourselfers around here that are smart enough to know that Lowe's and HD are ripping them off on price.

And you can usually see a lineup of retail people at any wholesale supplier on a Friday afternoon and Saturday...if they 'allow' retail sales.
And, of course everybody here knows, the possibility of 'allowing' retail sales at a given wholesale vendor, quite often, is simply all about knowing... or talking to the right person, in the right way.
Homeowners can play politics, too.

teeca
07-29-2008, 05:35 PM
ok to use, just make sure you have the proper lable (which is on the container anyway) and the MSDS info (the selling store should have it, but since the homeowner could careless about it, the store might have trouble finding it)

Whitey4
07-29-2008, 05:39 PM
I don't know about you, but I constantly get bombarded with inquiries by people, mainly neighbors and friends of my customers, wanting to know where I buy my materials... wholesale.

There are tons of younger do-it-yourselfers around here that are smart enough to know that Lowe's and HD are ripping them off on price.

And you can usually see a lineup of retail people at any wholesale supplier on a Friday afternoon and Saturday...if they 'allow' retail sales.
And, of course everybody here knows, the possibility of 'allowing' retail sales at a given wholesale vendor, quite often, is simply all about knowing... or talking to the right person, in the right way.
Homeowners can play politics, too.


Marcos, dude, you drinking today? First you say using ornamental grasses in plantings is a scam, now you say that HD and Lowes are ripping people off on price?

HD and Lowes operate on very small markups, and make it up in volume. That is why they don't carry the slower moving products, they need stock turnover and volume. The smaller independent nurseries and garden centers don't carry the high volume stuff... or don't sell much of it because they get grossly undercut on price by the nationals. They instead carry the more specialized products, things they can get a 30% markup on. Messenger, Sedge Hammer, etc, etc. Not enough volume for the nationals with those products with such low margins.

If retail products at HD and Lowes are priced too high, it's the manufacturer making all the money.

bugpage
07-29-2008, 05:45 PM
In most major metro areas there are only 1 or 2 large wholesalers. If the saving is there some consumers will drive the distance. With gas prices less are interested in making an extra trip.

Of course the consumers that do make the trip are those that have larger yards or acreages. The average 1/2 acres yard owner seems to be satisfied with a home depot product. Thats what we see anyway.

The topic was can a professional apply a homeowner pesticide. My answer is why would you want to? Funny, professional is looking at consumer products and the consumer is looking at professional products.

bug-guy
07-29-2008, 06:29 PM
the problem with home owner products from a pro's point of view are:
- package is smaller
- the active MIGHT be lighter
- cost per once/pound usually is higher

this is the same for home owners shopping at a vendor like JDL ... do the really want to buy 2.5 gals of a product...

i know when a H.O. comes in and see's the retail price i quote him, he winces... kinda puts value to what a pro charges for a service

Marcos
07-29-2008, 06:43 PM
Marcos, dude, you drinking today? First you say using ornamental grasses in plantings is a scam, now you say that HD and Lowes are ripping people off on price?

HD and Lowes operate on very small markups, and make it up in volume. That is why they don't carry the slower moving products, they need stock turnover and volume. The smaller independent nurseries and garden centers don't carry the high volume stuff... or don't sell much of it because they get grossly undercut on price by the nationals. They instead carry the more specialized products, things they can get a 30% markup on. Messenger, Sedge Hammer, etc, etc. Not enough volume for the nationals with those products with such low margins.

If retail products at HD and Lowes are priced too high, it's the manufacturer making all the money.

No, Whitey! :waving:
(Go read my last entry on the landscape plantings.)

What I'm saying about Lowes and HD is that there are increasing amounts of retail people who are realizing that they can find their fertilizer, seed and pesticides at wholesale vendors, at prices that often blow the box stores away....if they negotiate and play the game the way we do.

You see retail people coming onto lawnsite all the time looking for alternatives for HD and Lowes, for the reasons of product variety and cost, mainly.

However, I certainly wouldn't want any of my wholesale suppliers to give the typical Joe or Jane Bloe my pricing on a 50# bag of fertilizer.
But I know for certain, after witnessing years and years of face-to-face wholesale vendor transactions to retail customers, that there's often TONS more 'wiggle room' that they'll end up giving to the retail customer who's buying in any kind of volume at all.

I'm not talking about "smaller independent nurseries and garden centers", either. I'm talking about larger homeowners, over the years, following the lawn care and landscaping trucks into places like JD/Lesco, Shemin, etc and getting wholesale pricing when they buy enough $$ volume.
It's not like the personnel there can't manipulate their systems to make any sale happen, if they really want to.

And in these tough times...more do-it-yourself folks are becoming quite savvy with the $$ in their pockets!

For example...A landowner with a larger property, with a spray boom, who represents 'new money' and didn't get that money by mistake, figures out that a 8oz, $100 wholesale bottle of selective broadleaf herbicide has to be that price for a reason, so he learns to figure out just how far that bottle will go, and do cost / 1000, or cost / acre comparisons just like the pros.
Then he just has to justify if that bottle will be cost-efficient for his situation, or if the bulk of it will just sit on his garage shelf.

If he's comparing it to what he recognizes as a 'watered-down AI' that's sold at HD for example, it's usually a no-brainer, cost-wise.

Marcos
07-29-2008, 07:05 PM
The topic was can a professional apply a homeowner pesticide. My answer is why would you want to? Funny, professional is looking at consumer products and the consumer is looking at professional products.

Sometimes the box stores will have some type of crazy mark-down, just to move old product out the doors.

Last fall I picked up a skid of Sta-Green 29-2-5 at a local Lowes for a STEAL of a price. There was absolutely nothing wrong with it.
But because I do next to no non-organic dry fert apps anymore, it'll probably take me two full years to use it all up. :laugh:

Whitey4
07-29-2008, 07:34 PM
The pre-mixed ready to spray stuff may have limitations, but the nationals sell plenty of concentrate too. The whole AI dilution thing isn't an issue. It comes down to which controls work best. As long as the wholesalers don't advertise, it's pretty much status quo. Most consumers have no clue about Lesco, for example. They see it as an off brand that shows up at HD.... on occassion.

bugpage, I don't follow... why do you seem to think that pros are looking for retail products? I certainly don't think they are... at all. I DID use some Ortho 3 way, but as I explained, I got it darn near for free.

This is more an issue of distribution networks and advertising. The Lesco's of the world don't want the ad overhead of going retail to market their products. They will take the volume from the pros instead. The incidental HO who buys from them means nothing.... just like the high volume pro means nothing to the big retail outfits.

Using products from wholesale oriented companies like Andersons isn't much more than a marketing scheme... for me. If it's something they don't see in HD or Lowes, it must be a better proffessional product. Smoke and mirrors, smoke and mirrors. The caveat is that my knowledge base makes me a better applicator than Joe home owner. I know more about what is available, and what is most effective... and that is what it's all about.

Marcos
07-29-2008, 07:49 PM
The pre-mixed ready to spray stuff may have limitations, but the nationals sell plenty of concentrate too. The whole AI dilution thing isn't an issue. It comes down to which controls work best. As long as the wholesalers don't advertise, it's pretty much status quo. Most consumers have no clue about Lesco, for example. They see it as an off brand that shows up at HD.... on occassion.

bugpage, I don't follow... why do you seem to think that pros are looking for retail products? I certainly don't think they are... at all. I DID use some Ortho 3 way, but as I explained, I got it darn near for free.

This is more an issue of distribution networks and advertising. The Lesco's of the world don't want the ad overhead of going retail to market their products. They will take the volume from the pros instead. The incidental HO who buys from them means nothing.... just like the high volume pro means nothing to the big retail outfits.

Using products from wholesale oriented companies like Andersons isn't much more than a marketing scheme... for me. If it's something they don't see in HD or Lowes, it must be a better proffessional product. Smoke and mirrors, smoke and mirrors. The caveat is that my knowledge base makes me a better applicator than Joe home owner. I know more about what is available, and what is most effective... and that is what it's all about.

Things must be somewhat different up East.
I'm seeing a whole different story around here in S. Ohio...
Year after year, there's bunches more retail folks seeking out wholesale places to buy fert, seed & chemicals.

What's particularly the hot thing, locally, is do-it-yourself organic lawn care. And trying to find supplies for that...for ANYONE for that matter, isn't always easy.

It's not that JD / Lesco would ever advertise get retail business; although the Lesco name is certainly very recognizable to anyone who spends any amount of time playing golf, or are involved in sports turf.
And golf course supers/ sports turf folks usually aren't afraid to talk to inquiring parties about where they get their stuff, be it Lesco or wherever.

Whitey4
07-29-2008, 08:30 PM
Things must be somewhat different up East.
I'm seeing a whole different story around here in S. Ohio...
Year after year, there's bunches more retail folks seeking out wholesale places to buy fert, seed & chemicals.

What's particularly the hot thing, locally, is do-it-yourself organic lawn care. And trying to find supplies for that...for ANYONE for that matter, isn't always easy.

It's not that JD / Lesco would ever advertise get retail business; although the Lesco name is certainly very recognizable to anyone who spends any amount of time playing golf, or are involved in sports turf.
And golf course supers/ sports turf folks usually aren't afraid to talk to inquiring parties about where they get their stuff, be it Lesco or wherever.

I think much of it goes back to this basic fact: Turf acreage in the NE, at least near the cities is quite small. 2 to 4k of turf in the middle class areas. Mabe 6k in upper middle class areas. Even the wealthy on the north shore only have 8 to 12k. Buying in who;esale quantities just doesn't work for Joe Homeowner here.

Lesco's brand recognition here is not particularly over the noise level.

PHS
07-29-2008, 11:03 PM
The topic was can a professional apply a homeowner pesticide. My answer is why would you want to? Funny, professional is looking at consumer products and the consumer is looking at professional products.

I'm not looking to use consumer products. Like I mentioned, this came up in a conversation with a friend about the different materials that are available and to who. The only part I pay attention to is what I can buy that an unlicensed person can't. I had never really thought about it the other way around, if there were materials formulated for homeowners that I can't use as a professional.
Other than RUP's we're all just the T&O market, on the label there's no distinction between professional and non-professional. Golf courses have many of their own labels that we can't use, as do sod farms, agriculture, etc. It would be nice fr us if in the T&O market there was some seperation.

There are tons of younger do-it-yourselfers around here that are smart enough to know that Lowe's and HD are ripping them off on price.


I get questions regularly about what I use and where they can get it.

greendoctor
07-30-2008, 03:34 AM
This may be a label violation. As many of the professional products are labeled "For Sale to, Use and Storage by Commercial Applicators and Service Personnel." I have seen many pesticide products labeled " For Household Use Only". The DOA, here in Hawaii considers it a label violation if a commercial applicator is using a product labeled in that fashion. Not to mention, buying from HD instead of from a golf and turf vendor says unlicensed scrub. I have used some homeowner products, but that is on my own lawn and landscape only. I find the pro products often blows OTC stuff away in terms of performance and effect. Some things that I use are simply not OTC like metsulfuron, simazine or Certainty. Can't find that at my local HD.

greendoctor
07-30-2008, 03:44 AM
I get questions regularly about what I use and where they can get it.

I used to get questions like that when I was an employee of a "landscaping" company. My answer always started with a question "Are you DOA certified?, if not you probably cannot buy what I am using and even if you could, do you have use for $100-200 worth of chemicals intended to treat over an acre? The only people who would push the point were ***hole DIYer's who had no idea about correct equipment or calibration. A plastic hand sprayer bought at HD with an adjustable nozzle does not count as proper equipment for application of selective turf herbicides. Although lots of people think they are all that just because they have one of those. Needless to say, very few people ask me that question any more.

Msteele
07-30-2008, 05:32 AM
So I live in IN where I mow grass and do various other landscape maintainence. Can I legally charge someone to spray roundup in their driveway?

bug-guy
07-30-2008, 07:40 AM
green doctor i read an article that when a product states For Sale to, Use and Storage by Commercial Applicators and Service Personnel that there no enforcing this because the epa said if the company wants the the product to be RUP they would have apply for it, this was a way of them try to restrict the use with out proper registration

PHS
07-30-2008, 08:36 AM
"Are you DOA certified?, if not you probably cannot buy what I am using

That's what I say too but in this state the only thing I need a license for is larger quantities of 2,4-d. Everything else is available at the local stores (not HD), Manor, Simazine, Pramitol, etc. Granted the prices a lot higher than what I pay but it's there if you want it.

Bug-guy, Funny you mention that, the same stores I'm talking about will sell things like Termidor that have that on the label to anyone who walks in the door. A while back I bought some Bifen I/T with that restriction and I thought they would ask me for my license but they didn't.

ATVracer
07-30-2008, 10:31 AM
So I live in IN where I mow grass and do various other landscape maintainence. Can I legally charge someone to spray roundup in their driveway?


No you cannot charge them, and you can't even do it as a favor for free. They must do it themselves or hire a licensed applicator. The Indiana regulations are on the OISC website.

greendoctor
07-30-2008, 02:18 PM
That's what I say too but in this state the only thing I need a license for is larger quantities of 2,4-d. Everything else is available at the local stores (not HD), Manor, Simazine, Pramitol, etc. Granted the prices a lot higher than what I pay but it's there if you want it.

Bug-guy, Funny you mention that, the same stores I'm talking about will sell things like Termidor that have that on the label to anyone who walks in the door. A while back I bought some Bifen I/T with that restriction and I thought they would ask me for my license but they didn't.

The DOA in Hawaii also enforces the part of the label concerning commercial applicators. I know a vendor here got busted for selling Ronstar, Talstar, or other chemicals with the Commercial Applicator statement. Also, simazine and atrazine are RUP here. The golf and turf vendors here do not want your business unless they have a current photocopy of your license. I have no problems with that policy.

lilmarvin4064
07-30-2008, 03:32 PM
green doctor i read an article that when a product states For Sale to, Use and Storage by Commercial Applicators and Service Personnel that there no enforcing this because the epa said if the company wants the the product to be RUP they would have apply for it, this was a way of them try to restrict the use with out proper registration

I actually asked this question to our regional pesticide investigator (in VA) and he said the same thing. It is more of a "suggestion" and not legally binding. something about not falling under the "label directions", and as long as it's still labeled for use in/on residential lawns/landscapes. It seems every state is different.

But like greendoctor says, I wish every state was like HI. No more unlicensed, uninsured guys, or homeowners to compete with. A lot more business for me :)

PHS
07-30-2008, 06:19 PM
But like greendoctor says, I wish every state was like HI. No more unlicensed, uninsured guys, or homeowners to compete with. A lot more business for me

I agree. More business aside, I think it would also help ease other regulations because you would have more responsible applicators. Less people like my father-in-law spreading lawn fert at 3x the labeled rate, you know "to really get the grass growing for summer" :hammerhead:

greendoctor
07-31-2008, 05:45 AM
I actually asked this question to our regional pesticide investigator (in VA) and he said the same thing. It is more of a "suggestion" and not legally binding. something about not falling under the "label directions", and as long as it's still labeled for use in/on residential lawns/landscapes. It seems every state is different.

But like greendoctor says, I wish every state was like HI. No more unlicensed, uninsured guys, or homeowners to compete with. A lot more business for me :)

The DOA considers failure to comply with anything and everything on the label a violation. Nothing is a suggestion. The vendor who sell such products to DIYers stands to lose a lot for selling to homeowners. I cannot imagine Lesco surviving very long here unless they maintain on file, copies of their customer's DOA license and never sell products labeled for commercial use to homeowners. Even then, I have a lot of competition here. The market for professional lawn and ornamental care is really tough here thanks to the do-it-all unlicensed yard services that will do a lousy job cheap. Unfortunately the DOA does not have the budget to pull over these clowns in their pickups with the plastic hand sprayer and all of the chemicals, bought at HD stored in a 5 gallon bucket. One, they are applying for hire, two they are using products labeled "For Household Use" and lastly, do I think these guys even attempt to follow a label. That is why I do not have anything to do with middle class clients. They either have these hacks doing their lawn or they are DIYers. I only want to deal with people who can recognize that they are not dealing with someone who goes shopping at the fertilzer aisle at HD, so my fees are not unreasonable considering that fact.

bug-guy
07-31-2008, 07:46 AM
i sent a question e-mail to the epa on the labeling and will share the answer

Harley-D
07-31-2008, 09:36 AM
The DOA considers failure to comply with anything and everything on the label a violation. Nothing is a suggestion. The vendor who sell such products to DIYers stands to lose a lot for selling to homeowners. I cannot imagine Lesco surviving very long here unless they maintain on file, copies of their customer's DOA license and never sell products labeled for commercial use to homeowners. Even then, I have a lot of competition here. The market for professional lawn and ornamental care is really tough here thanks to the do-it-all unlicensed yard services that will do a lousy job cheap. Unfortunately the DOA does not have the budget to pull over these clowns in their pickups with the plastic hand sprayer and all of the chemicals, bought at HD stored in a 5 gallon bucket. One, they are applying for hire, two they are using products labeled "For Household Use" and lastly, do I think these guys even attempt to follow a label. That is why I do not have anything to do with middle class clients. They either have these hacks doing their lawn or they are DIYers. I only want to deal with people who can recognize that they are not dealing with someone who goes shopping at the fertilzer aisle at HD, so my fees are not unreasonable considering that fact.

I know for a fact that the local inspector here isn't concerned with our local lesco selling to homeowners. I was there when he stated that professional use was a suggestion. (recert class) I understand the law should be followed but the bags of lime i buy from old castle say for professional use only on them. Come on. So homeowners can't buy lime. I don't want that app anyway so they can have it. They can't put down enough of it around here. avg ph of 5.7
Point is...some products say for professional use only and some don't. It could be a marketing ploy too, right?
Acclaim doesn't. None of the PBI Gordon products do. Lesco momentum does but i know several homeowners that have a gallon. "For professional use only" should be a regulated statement, not a way for companies to get HO to buy more.

TforTexas
07-31-2008, 10:26 AM
The discussion of whether or not Lesco should sell to unlicensed applicators or homeowners breaks out here pretty regularly. I spent several years as a Lesco sales rep and can tell you from experience that it was not up to us to regulate the industry. Unless a product was restricted by whatever state you happened to be in you could sell product to homeowners (if they wanted to buy that big of a jug) or an unlicensed applicator (we always encouraged every one to go to the DOA and get the license because it was the right thing to do and they wouldn't want to get caught out there by an inspector using a product for hire without one) but unless it was RUP by your state you weren't required to ask to see a license or keep record of that sale.
The user recommendations such as For sale to, and use of by professional applicators only, is a manufacturer recommendation put on by Bayer, BASF, Syngenta or whoever manufactures that chemical. It is put on their product for national/international distribution. The only entity that has the right to regulate sale or use of a product is the individual state.
The flip side of that coin is that professionals can buy products at the retail box stores but still must carry the proper license for their state in order to apply those products for hire as with any pesticide applied commercially.

PHS
07-31-2008, 10:39 AM
I know for a fact that the local inspector here isn't concerned with our local lesco selling to homeowners.

As long as they aren't breaking any laws he shouldn't be concerned with how they run their business. That's kinda why I brought up this question, not because of Lesco but because of the legal gray area between professional and homeowner use of pesticides. Maybe it isn't actually gray but there is a perception that there is a difference. I've heard many people on this board say Lesco doesn't care about the law because they'll sell to non-professionals all day long. I've heard people say X pesticide is banned for homeowners but pro's can still use it or vice-versa. I assumed it was true because of the people I heard it from but most of the time I've found that isn't actually true.

I'm interested to hear the response to Bug's email. I've always been taught, "the label's the law" so I don't like the idea of some parts of the label being "a suggestion" and other parts legally binding. I'm not a label expert but I expect they'll say something to the effect that the initial statement is just a summary of the products uses and isn't legally binding the way the rest of the label is. Although Green's experience is a little troubling.

Unfortunately so much of this stuff is subject to local interpretation. I used to work in an ag area and the inspector wasn't lax on enforcement but he had seen it all and knew that we were trying very hard to always follow the law. If something wasn't right he'd give us a chance to fix it because we were doing a good job. He'd hassle the illegal operators and leave the legimate guys alone. 20 miles away in yuppieville the inspector had total hard on for giving fines. Since he'd only harass the legitimate companies since he knew where to find them and turned a blind eye to all the illegals, it was basically an extortion scheme instead of environmental protection.

Marcos
07-31-2008, 09:30 PM
I know for a fact that the local inspector here isn't concerned with our local lesco selling to homeowners. Point is...some products say for professional use only and some don't. It could be a marketing ploy too, right?
Acclaim doesn't. None of the PBI Gordon products do. Lesco momentum does but i know several homeowners that have a gallon. "For professional use only" should be a regulated statement, not a way for companies to get HO to buy more.

Locals inspectors don't care about this because it's not any of their direct concern.

The label stipulations that you're reading...things such as "For professional use only"...are put there by the manufacturers merely as a recommendation only.

Unless a specific green industry vendor makes a 'no retail sales' policy actually stick, particularly regarding their pesticides, there is nothing legally binding to stop the avg retail buyer from buying anything on the shelf that's not RUP.

And frankly...Lesco-eaten-by-a-Deere has to be making BUCCO profit off of everything they sell retail!

Msteele
08-02-2008, 03:57 AM
No you cannot charge them, and you can't even do it as a favor for free. They must do it themselves or hire a licensed applicator. The Indiana regulations are on the OISC website.

Yea I thought that was the case, thanks for the help. Maybe ill look into becoming a licensed applicator in a few years. Its to bad just a little bit of round-up here and their could make my life a little bit easier.

Whitey4
08-02-2008, 04:30 PM
Yea I thought that was the case, thanks for the help. Maybe ill look into becoming a licensed applicator in a few years. Its to bad just a little bit of round-up here and their could make my life a little bit easier.


Don't wait a few years.... you want profits to double NEXT year? With very little increase in overhead? get certified NOW. You are leaving a LOT of money on the table.

Msteele
08-04-2008, 05:36 AM
Don't wait a few years.... you want profits to double NEXT year? With very little increase in overhead? get certified NOW. You are leaving a LOT of money on the table.

I have thought about it, I have read a little about becoming liscenesed in my state, it dosen't seem to difficult. I learn a lot about turff grass, deaises, and weeds on this forum but I don't think I know enough. Where and how did you guys start out?

TforTexas
08-04-2008, 09:53 AM
Go to your local Dept of Agriculture extension service. They will give you a schedule of thier testing and all the study guide books you need. Take a couple weeks to study up on the books and there you have it.

Ric
08-04-2008, 10:39 AM
Yo

As a Single Parent I tried to teach my children the value of Not WHAT they did but HOW they did it. I couldn't stop them from drinking beer with all the peer pressure, But I could teach them to know their limit. The same thing with Retail products. I use nothing that the homeowner can't buy themselves. But I am paid for what I KNOW and not what I use. Sure I buy hardware store Chemicals once in a great while for special jobs. So what is the big deal about that???

Harley-D
08-04-2008, 11:41 AM
Locals inspectors don't care about this because it's not any of their direct concern.

The label stipulations that you're reading...things such as "For professional use only"...are put there by the manufacturers "merely as a recommendation only."
Unless a specific green industry vendor makes a 'no retail sales' policy actually stick, particularly regarding their pesticides, there is nothing legally binding to stop the avg retail buyer from buying anything on the shelf that's not RUP.

And frankly...Lesco-eaten-by-a-Deere has to be making BUCCO profit off of everything they sell retail!

This is the only specific issue that i've heard really bothered some of us that do this legally. I don't believe that if the label says it is a violation of federal law to use this product in a manner inconsistant with it's label, that it's only reffering to part of that label. Does this mean that other parts of the label are a "suggestion"? No. Ofcourse not. But open to interpretation. Then the question, what's a professional? Those that have their license i would say at the very least. Probably a whole other thread, huh?

BZACK
08-04-2008, 03:05 PM
Yo

As a Single Parent I tried to teach my children the value of Not WHAT they did but HOW they did it. I couldn't stop them from drinking beer with all the peer pressure, But I could teach them to know their limit. The same thing with Retail products. I use nothing that the homeowner can't buy themselves. But I am paid for what I KNOW and not what I use. Sure I buy hardware store Chemicals once in a great while for special jobs. So what is the big deal about that???

:clapping:Nicely stated and so applicable to many professions.:clapping:

nik
08-05-2008, 05:40 PM
Then the question, what's a professional? Those that have their license i would say at the very least. Probably a whole other thread, huh? Pretty much. As mentioned several times, those statements area considered by EPA to not be enforceable, they are closer to an advertising statement. Some states (like Hawaii apparently) do enforce all parts of the label.

The issue of commercial or professional comes up ALL the time at state and federal levels. EPA only requires products which they feel are a problem to people, animals, the environment if mis-used restrict their use to certified/licensed individuals. Even if someone wanted to restrict an ingredient/product, it would do so if EPA decided that ingredient could be an issue.

I fit ain;t on that list, it ain't gonna be federally restricted. Termidor is an example. A fine general/structural use product. The company and many in the structural industry wanted it to be a RUP. The EPA disagreed. The label carries the "For use by professional" label but many states chose not to enforce it.

Something else to consider, your state may have additional rules regarding things such as PPE. Homeowner products typically mention little in the way of PPE. you could find yourself on a spot where you are complying with the label but run afoul of your state's version of OSHA.

Frankly, on a pure cost per zo/lb, I can't see how stuff from a Lowes or HD would even come close to what you'd get at a chem dealer.

greendoctor
08-06-2008, 03:07 AM
The difference between a state or Federal RUP in Hawaii and a general use product, is the amount of detail required in the application record. A general use product with the commercial applicator statement on the front of the label is not to be sold or used by a person not licensed in the pertinent category. I do not have a structural endorsement, so I cannot have Termidor. The only time there is leeway on this hard interpretation is if a product is simply "reccomended for commercial and agricultural use". Avid is labeled like that. When something is labeled for houshold or domestic use, that is interpreted as for use by homeowners on their own property. There are not enough inspectors to pull over the unlicensed yard services. However, I know they get lots of license holders for violating some portion of a label. Also lots of AI are RUP in Hawaii. For a long time there was a virtual ban on 2,4-D in Hawaii. Because it was so restricted, vendors stopped carrying it and it dissapeared as straight ester or amine. Thank you Pioneer HIBRED, Syngenta, Monsanto and all of the other seed corn producers operating in Hawaii. I was told they had a lot to do with cracking the ban on 2,4-D. Now can someone crack the ban on Drive and Dismiss.

bug-guy
08-06-2008, 07:17 AM
you have to remember that if a product say's for use by a pro or commercial app. and is not an RUP and is sold to a homeowner and he uses it he violated the label the sale did not. the problem is he has no license to lose.
baking soda does not have a lawn label on it put states many other uses...???


the same down here with atrazine some read the label as you can only appliy between oct and april.
that applies to use not sale

rcreech
08-06-2008, 07:38 AM
you have to remember that if a product say's for use by a pro or commercial app. and is not an RUP and is sold to a homeowner and he uses it he violated the label the sale did not. the problem is he has no license to lose.
baking soda does not have a lawn label on it put states many other uses...???


the same down here with atrazine some read the label as you can only appliy between oct and april.
that applies to use not sale


I am not sure about most products....but CAN NOT buy Atrazine up here in OH unless you have a license!

They have to have a new copy of your license on file every year, before the will even invoice and load you.

greendoctor
08-07-2008, 07:40 AM
I am not sure about most products....but CAN NOT buy Atrazine up here in OH unless you have a license!

They have to have a new copy of your license on file every year, before the will even invoice and load you.

Atrazine 4L and 90DF are both labeled Federal RUP. That, Nemacur and Dursban are the only Federal RUP I know of on turf. Oh, any Talstar, Scimitar, Deltagard, or Tempo with a golf course or sod farm label is RUP. The EPA considers misapplication to large areas such as golf courses or sod farms an environmental hazard. Don't want Joe Schmoe spraying one of these where it will get into a body of water, then making the fish float.

teeca
08-11-2008, 05:54 PM
here is a link to the trimec lable http://www.pbigordon.com/pdfs/Trimec992-SL.pdf point blank, cant sell to home owner. here is lescos 3-way, same thing http://www.lesco.com/?PageID=27&ItemNumber=069370 . but i've seen lesco selling it anyway. i have found that most of the DIY stores only carry products that have a 'caution' lableing, but dont carry 'ester' based products (for weed control) thought that was weird (not sad about it at all, because i can kill the clover and they cant)