Intelli-System 24v update info.....

[JoeyD]

I thought I would post this up for all to read. This is an update we will be sending to our distributing partners. If any of you want more info on this systm please call me. It is really taking off!!

[NightScenes]

Thanks Joey, good info here.

[Firefly Prof. Lighting]

Very Nice. It is amazing how fast things have been moving over the past 5-7 years in the way of innovation. As always Unique is cutting edge.

[JoeyD]

we strive to be that way!! And to think when we first cracked this egg (24v) a few months ago people here were questioning it and now we are selling it like tis going out of style. You use the system one time and you will not want to go back! And neither will your crew! Once we have the Par lamp it will be over!

[Firefly Prof. Lighting]

I have a couple of large projects in the works that this is going to be perfect for, I can't wait to try it out.

[JoeyD]

keep me posted when your ready for the tech info!!

[JoeyD]

That is a very bold statement. Some might even say fanatical...

It is a bold statement. And if you read the fact sheet I have provided, find one thing that 12v is better at then 24v when it comes to technical. Again Unique is going CRAZY!!!! LOL

Ok Joey, so here is question that I have thought about for a long time.. Please enlighten me. Unique just came out with a 24V system. So why is your company going to the 24 axis and every other major manufacturer is going to the LED axis? LED is where most manufacturers are going. Yes sure they have a ways to go....but.....3 major manufacturers are developing that technology with the help of others. So why is your company going to the opposite extreme? As an 11 year lighting veteran, does your company see something that I don't? I just want to make sure I am in the loop.


Good question Craig.

Just because those guys do something doesn't mean we are. Our goal is to produce long lasting, quality, and user friendly SYSTEMS and not to follow what the other fixture manufacturers do just because. If we followed those guys we would never have been Unique!

It is not that we are against LED and its progression. It is just that there is going to be a bunch of people that are not going to be so easily sold on LED, yet they still would like to install a more efficient system than the current 12v system. It is obvious that a lot of pros see fault with the LED's. Either its an availability, quality, technical, or aesthetic concern that they may have.

Unique has never just followed the crowd. We could care less where the other manufacturers are trying to go. We don't sit in our meetings and discuss what they are doing. We discuss what we are doing and how WE can improve ourselves and this industry. If anything we discuss how can we protect ourselves from those who choose to follow us! I guarantee you it will only be a matter of time before another manufacturer has their own 24v system that they start promoting based upon everything we have figured out for them.

We don't want to put all our eggs in one basket especially on an unproven technology. Sure it is progressing, and I have seen some very impressive things, but reality is that simulated lamp life testing is bad enough with regular lamps yet we choose to believe in the simulated testing numbers of LED's. Why? Because it feels good.

LED technology is changing so fast that all these fixtures these guys are selling today in 5 years could be obsolete and thrown away to make room for the next latest and greatest technology.

So let me ask you guys this...forget about LED for a second. Pretend it doesn't exist. IF you read that 24v fact sheet wouldn't you want to try it out?

12/2 cable is now good for 400watts vs. 192watts, you have an almost 3 volt range to be within to produce the halogen cycle (21.6-24v vs 10.8-12v) which means you can always set your voltages closer to 22v leaving 2 volts of range should a lamp burnout. This will prevent a chain reaction burnout! MUCH BETTER THAN 12v!!

You can use 14/2 or 16/2 for home run wires. You can run a Hub off a hub, or even daisy chain a run!! Your freedom when it comes to wiring is ten fold!

You have half the voltage drop meaning you can pull runs of 400ft if you want all day long.

The system is more efficient, it utilizes a 90/10 rule vs. an 80/20 resulting in more lights per transformer, I mean the positives of 24v just keep coming.

Amps remain the same in a 24v system and in some cases the amp draw is less, especially when you are talking about the amps that a 24v lamp draws vs. a 12v lamp. Amps are the enemy in lighting, not voltage, if the amps are the same or less in a 24v then there is no argument about it being any more dangerous then a 12v system.

The only reason 12v will still be used is because of the availability TODAY and a comfort zone that few contractors want to breach, especially after having success doing things one way. Heck look how long it took before people actually recognized the Hub system, and you will still find people that will argue its usefulness! But as soon as 24v is on every shelf and 14/2 and 16/2 is available in reels on the suppliers floors then why wouldn't you use it?

24v is not about LED, it is Unique Lighting Systems discovering a new system that has strong factual and technical benefits. Some people will argue it with the lamp inventory they have to keep and the lamps cost more and whatever else may come up, but you know what, some people are going to argue us no matter what. It doesn't matter what we do, if you don't like Unique then you will probably hate our idea of using 24v plain and simple.

People that are not afraid to change to something better will do so and will reap the benefits of having quicker more efficient installs. Believe me, when Nate told us to not train anyone on 12v anymore I thought to myself, "this is crazy!". But then I read, then I saw, then I came to realize that 24v is a really cool concept and system. I cant argue it anymore. You can argue the logistics of training your crew or yourself on new rules and you can argue having to inventory another set of lamps. But outside of that there are few arguments. 24v is a progression and should be welcomed with open arms. You don't change anything you do today with 12v, the only thing changing is the numbers. You still use the same fixtures and better yet you have all the freedom you could ever dream of when it comes to wiring. Heck I have even told people that the daisy chain is BACK!

Let me know if you guys have more questions. I don't want to seem confrontational or heavy handed here and that's why I moved my response into our Unique forum. I just want you guys to see something new and better! We are not trying to abandon LED but we feel like we have come across a better way to do things than 12v so why not have 2 new ways to do things, LED and 24v. We feel that options are good to have. We will let you guys decide what way is better for you and we will work on supplying you with those solid reliable system options!

[Chris J]

Joey, I like the idea of the 24v system and I will be promoting it's use in the coming months. But your response has me doing some thinking. Just how much more are these 24v lamps? I ask this from "the customer's" point of view. As far as I can tell, the majority of the benefits are the contractor's. The customer couldn't care less on the size of wire I have to use or the amount of voltage drop my system can handle, nor do they care how many watts I can put on a home-run. What they will ask, however, is "how much are these replacement lamps going to cost me, and are they easy to find?" I understand the savings in wire will offset the initial cost, so I consider it a wash. The only thing left to talk about at that point is the increased amount we need to charge to relamp the system. The customer may pay the same for a 24v system initially, but it will cost more to service it. These 24v lamps have no more lamp life (and in some cases less life) than the 12v counterparts.
The issue will come up, so I'd like to know the correct response.
Thanks,

[TXNSLighting]

Great post Joey. You have really caught my eye on this 24v system. I need to try this thing out. Is there some materials you cand send me on the whole system?

I want to get it figured out so i can start selling it.

We are going to be doing a home and garden show in 6 weeks, and i would like to showcase this. It would really make me stand out!

[JoeyD]

Joey, I like the idea of the 24v system and I will be promoting it's use in the coming months. But your response has me doing some thinking. Just how much more are these 24v lamps? I ask this from "the customer's" point of view. As far as I can tell, the majority of the benefits are the contractor's. The customer couldn't care less on the size of wire I have to use or the amount of voltage drop my system can handle, nor do they care how many watts I can put on a home-run. What they will ask, however, is "how much are these replacement lamps going to cost me, and are they easy to find?" I understand the savings in wire will offset the initial cost, so I consider it a wash. The only thing left to talk about at that point is the increased amount we need to charge to relamp the system. The customer may pay the same for a 24v system initially, but it will cost more to service it. These 24v lamps have no more lamp life (and in some cases less life) than the 12v counterparts.
The issue will come up, so I'd like to know the correct response.
Thanks,


Well Chris, I obviously cant quote a contractors price, that is up to the distributor but I can tell you what list price is. So for example a standard 12v MR16 BAB lists from Unique at $6.31. The same lamp in 24v is $17.50. So there is a substantial price increase on the lamps. No denying that. And remember these are list prices from UNIQUE so it is not to far off to think that you can get better pricing on your lamps from a lamp supplier. These are Ushio lamps I am quoting here.

So there is going to be an increase to the customer when it comes to maintining the system. The lamps are double the cost essentially and therefore they would need to pay 2 times as much for their lamps to be replaced. But do you think the homeowner will really balk at the idea of paying a few extra dollars for replacing good quality long lasting lamps? I know the homeowner doesnt care about VD and TF's and stuff like that but when you explain to them why you use a 24v system this should help ease the pain. Explaining to them that your system uses less wire, more TF, and the system over all is more efficient then a 12v system there has to be some value there in explaining that.

This is going to be one of the obvious hurdles in develping the way we sell this new system. We will need to do a bit more research on this.

Great question Chris!

[JoeyD]

Great post Joey. You have really caught my eye on this 24v system. I need to try this thing out. Is there some materials you cand send me on the whole system?

I want to get it figured out so i can start selling it.

We are going to be doing a home and garden show in 6 weeks, and i would like to showcase this. It would really make me stand out!

What I have right now is posted as an attachment in this thread and in the other 24v thread in the Unique forum. We are currently workign on a 24v slide ruler, cheat sheets for VD, and rules of thumb for wiring in the branch method. Once I have these pieces completed I will getthem out to everyone as quickly as I can.

Thanks for your interest Ryan. I will keep you posted on when we get the 24v conference call togeather.

[NightScenes]

Joey, you have said that the only lamp that is not availible in 24v is the PAR. Is there a 24v 3155 or 3156? How about other wedge base lamps? I know you are saying that there will be no need in changing fixtures but if I need a fixture that uses an 11 watt wedge base lamp and I can't get it in 24v I am limiting the fixtures that I can use and therefore limiting my design to certain fixtures and effects.

Thanks man,

[JoeyD]

I will verify but I think there is 24v SCB and DCB lamps. I guess that when i made that statement I was talking from a Unique Standpoint. In which case we dont use DCB, SCB, and Wedge Base Lamps. I will check it out.

Thanks Paul!

[INTEGRA Works Lighting]

Joey, I hope you will allow me to post this up here....

A couple things that strike me as issues with the 24v system right off the bat.

1: There are several jurisdictions, (and the list is growing) where you simply cannot install a LV outdoor/landscape/garden lighting system that is over 15 Volts. Ontario is one of them, New Jersey (unless you are an EC?), and Washington I am pretty sure.

2: By switching to the 24V system you are by default limiting yourself to fixtures that support 24V lamps. Are there in fact an ample supply of Wedge, G4 Bi Pin, SCB, MR16 (full range of intensities and optics?) lamps on the market today? I would hate to have to give up other manufacturers fixtures simply because there are no 24V lamps available.

I understand the technical advantages to building a 24V lighting system, and have no qualms with innovation and change. But how do we address the two issues above.

Thanks.

[JoeyD]

Joey, I hope you will allow me to post this up here....

A couple things that strike me as issues with the 24v system right off the bat.

1: There are several jurisdictions, (and the list is growing) where you simply cannot install a LV outdoor/landscape/garden lighting system that is over 15 Volts. Ontario is one of them, New Jersey (unless you are an EC?), and Washington I am pretty sure.

2: By switching to the 24V system you are by default limiting yourself to fixtures that support 24V lamps. Are there in fact an ample supply of Wedge, G4 Bi Pin, SCB, MR16 (full range of intensities and optics?) lamps on the market today? I would hate to have to give up other manufacturers fixtures simply because there are no 24V lamps available.

I understand the technical advantages to building a 24V lighting system, and have no qualms with innovation and change. But how do we address the two issues above.

Thanks.


No problem James these are very good questions.


1. You must always check with your local codes and jurisdictions before installing anything. Reality is the NEC states that low voltage is 30v or less and that's what we go by, Article 411 of the NEC. We carry ETL approvals on our 24v products. So we do everything we can as a manufacturer to ensure that the products we sell and promote are safe. It is up to the installer to decide if they are able to install these or any other products in their areas. Although there are some who feel that voltages beyond 15v are dangerous the reality of the situation is they are not. Amperage is what causes heat which is what causes problems. With a 24v system the amperage's remain the same as a 12v system when it comes to transformers and wire. But whats cool about the 24v system is it actually reduces the amperes on the secondary to half of what a 12v system is. So essentially it can also be argued as being a safer system to install then 12v and this is obviously where we prove that it is a more efficient system to install. Of course the big time PRO 1838 people will never admit this (24v system being safer) because they are too focused on voltages and not wanting to admit that 1838 is really an old testing laboratory standard that is eventually going to be obsolete. 300w, 15v regulations cannot prevent meltdowns and fires as we most recently saw with a 2 million dollar home in Minnesota. UL1838 cant fix stupid, and we have been saying it all along that 12v can be just as dangerous as 30v when installed incorrectly.

2. There is a wide variety of 24v lamps available today and the list is growing. Remember 24v systems have been used for years in the interior sector, and that is where we pull most of our lamps from anyway for use in the landscape whether its a 12v or 24v system. There are 24v Bi Pin T-3 lamps, 24v wedge base, 24v MR16, and soon 24v Par36. I did not see if there are 24v SCB and DCB lamps, but as you guys know we only make fixtures that utilize Par36, MR16, MR11, and T-3 lamps so 24v works perfectly in regards to our product line. The only thing you change when going from 12v to 24v is the lamp and transformer voltages. Any fixture you have will work with 24v as long as it is a fixture that accepts the above 24v lamps. The principals of voltage drop remain the same when it comes to testing and compensating voltage drop. Obviously the biggest benefit I see in the 24v system when it comes to lamps is the lumen efficiency and the fact that you have almost a 3v window to be within vs. a 1v window with 12v to produce the halogen cycle. The other huge benefit is VD is cut in half with a 24v system.

These are completely legit questions, and ones that are going to come up. Fact is even though NJ and Ontario have laid out these regulations installers are finding ways around them in both of these areas and continuing to install safe, well engineered systems that go beyond 10 and 15v. We have lots of electrical customers who deal with VERY HIGH amperage and voltage systems that laugh at the fact that people say anything beyond 15v is dangerous.

Please, if you have any more questions let me know!!