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View Full Version : Dumb questions (maybe) but I'd like to know


Waterit
07-30-2008, 07:04 PM
The setup:

(2) 7-1/2HP submersibles, each producing about 120GPM @ 70PSI +/-, and tied into same 2-1/2" mainline. Each well has 2" pressure relief valve BEFORE 2" PVB.

33 zones spread across (2) ICC's, each ICC has its own Hunter PSR-B and each controls one well.


The questions:
1) There is no protection from one well pumping against the other except for the PVB's, which I don't think are built to withstand that much flow at that much pressure. I want to install a check valve AFTER each PVB to prevent the back-pressuring between pumps. Good idea/bad idea? If good, what size check? Match mainline size, or go bigger?
2. When either pump first turns on, there is a horrendous hammer effect on the piping, specifically the MA coming out of the PVB and the 1st 90 that turns the pipe vertical. It was suggested to install a pressure tank to absorb some of this hammer. Smart/stupid? If smart, what size tank?

::::moves away from keyboard, looks for fireproof suit::::

Wet_Boots
07-30-2008, 07:37 PM
Too bad you can't have the supply under continuous pressure, with tanks and pressure switches (and maybe even CSVs)

greenmonster304
07-30-2008, 07:41 PM
it seems to me if you had a check valve on each well and they are plumbed into the same main if there was ever a pressure difference between the two wells the one with weaker pressure would not be able to open. But i might be missing some factor.

Waterit
07-30-2008, 07:42 PM
Too bad you can't have the supply under continuous pressure, with tanks and pressure switches (and maybe even CSVs)

Could have it that way, but personally I like a straight pump-start with a well. And with the volume of water (and lack of irrigation knowledge amongst the maintenance staff) I'll probably be leaving it a straight pump-start.

Wet_Boots
07-30-2008, 07:48 PM
But you do cure the startup hammer with a 24/7 pressurized setup.

Mike Leary
07-30-2008, 07:53 PM
[QUOTE=Waterit;2443205 personally I like a straight pump-start with a well. .[/QUOTE]

Ditto, or on demand.

bcg
07-30-2008, 07:58 PM
Or, you could just replace the PVB's with RP's. PVB's aren't rated for back-pressure at all so if you're worried about that, then you definitely do need to do something.

bicmudpuppy
07-30-2008, 08:12 PM
I'm reading ONE main line. Why is the PVB after EACH pump? One PVB with check valves to protect the pumps from each other would be a better setup, but I'm not there looking at it. A single pump start being shared by two controllers is another nightmare, especially if the controllers are a significant distance apart. If your worried about down stream leaks, switching to a MV and putting the pumps on pressure switches would be easier and safer. Stacking the pressure switches for demand would again be safer for all aspects. If hours on the pump is an issue, then you can trade the sequence of primary and secondary either by installing plugs that could be switched, or by trading the switches annually. The worst part of these type of questions is NOT being there. I would bet that some obvious solutions would be there for many of us if we were on site.

Any chance of some pictures?

Mike Leary
07-30-2008, 09:39 PM
[QUOTE=bicmudpuppy;2443252 I would bet that some obvious solutions would be there for many of us if we were on site[/QUOTE]

I love my wife, dog, motor home, pump experts... in that order.

Waterit
07-30-2008, 10:15 PM
I'm reading ONE main line. Why is the PVB after EACH pump? One PVB with check valves to protect the pumps from each other would be a better setup, but I'm not there looking at it. A single pump start being shared by two controllers is another nightmare, especially if the controllers are a significant distance apart. If your worried about down stream leaks, switching to a MV and putting the pumps on pressure switches would be easier and safer. Stacking the pressure switches for demand would again be safer for all aspects. If hours on the pump is an issue, then you can trade the sequence of primary and secondary either by installing plugs that could be switched, or by trading the switches annually. The worst part of these type of questions is NOT being there. I would bet that some obvious solutions would be there for many of us if we were on site.

Any chance of some pictures?

Two pumps, two controllers, two pump-starts, one mainline, although each pump has its own feed into mainline. Don't know where mainline is tied together (we didn't do original install, just controls package).

PVB's are mounted on top of each pump - remember they are submersible pumps.

I may put in MV's, that would solve with back-pressure problem, but REALLY hate the idea of going to pressure switches, especially on 440VAC 3-phase pumps.

Will take pics tomorrow and post.

Mike Leary
07-30-2008, 10:23 PM
Two pumps, two controllers, two pump-starts, one mainline, although each pump has its own feed into mainline. Don't know where mainline is tied together

As long as both pumps/clocks don't come on together, who cares?

Waterit
07-30-2008, 10:28 PM
As long as both pumps/clocks don't come on together, who cares?

That's just it, Mike - they DO run together at times, but there is also a couple of hours that only one pump is running, and back-pressuring the other PVB.

Wait to see the pics - you'll love seeing what they installed to keep the MA's from blowing out of the PVB's...

Mike Leary
07-30-2008, 11:26 PM
Wait to see the pics - you'll love seeing what they installed to keep the MA's from blowing out of the PVB's...

Crummy pics we love.

CAPT Stream Rotar
07-31-2008, 06:20 AM
Crummy pics we love.

In Rainbird we trust...

bicmudpuppy
07-31-2008, 07:48 AM
In Rainbird we trust...

OMG, we still don't have this boy attending the church of irrigation?

Waterit
07-31-2008, 12:26 PM
Promised some pics today, but we've got lightning popping all over and will get 1-2 inches of rain.

Guess I'll catch up on some paperwork and then spend some quality time with my couch.

Waterit
08-01-2008, 07:38 PM
QUOTE=bicmudpuppy;2443252]Any chance of some pictures?[/QUOTE]

And here they are:

Pump #1
Note the classic control-wire wrap-around restraint!:hammerhead:
115989

115990

115991

Waterit
08-01-2008, 07:42 PM
Pump #2
With ultra-cool relief valve discharge piping and wrap-around power supply!
115992

115993

Mike Leary
08-01-2008, 07:56 PM
:::::::Jumps off ferry boat::::::

Dirty Water
08-01-2008, 09:02 PM
I love my wife, dog, motor home, pump experts... in that order.

Bryan has forgot more about irrigation than than I ever knew :)

bicmudpuppy
08-01-2008, 11:06 PM
Bryan has forgot more about irrigation than than I ever knew :)

You have me confused with someone else, but I do know that guy :)

but thx for the thought :)

How ya been? Did you skip my question about PDA phones? or just decide not to venture an opinion.

Dirty Water
08-01-2008, 11:57 PM
How ya been? Did you skip my question about PDA phones? or just decide not to venture an opinion.

Sorry, I meant to reply to that one.

If your son has a HTC, and you don't like it, then I'd avoid the HTC phones. Most of them run Windows Mobile so they are pretty similar.

Have you looked at the blackberry Curve? The Blackberries have a more simplistic interface than the Windows Mobile phones which can be good, however there is less 3rd party support (You won't find a PCAnywhere type program for it).

I used to use a T-Mobile Dash (Which is a HTC Phone) and was pretty happy with it. T-Mobile will be launching their new Android platform running on the HTC Dream this fall, so you might want to wait for that.

Of course, if your with AT&T, I'd have to suggest the new iPhone 3g.

Dirty Water
08-01-2008, 11:58 PM
http://www.lawnsite.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=115993&d=1217634080


Sometimes you just have to scratch your head. The slipfix here is definitly one of those times.

Maybe they thought the lateral movement would be good :)

bicmudpuppy
08-02-2008, 07:59 AM
Sorry, I meant to reply to that one.

If your son has a HTC, and you don't like it, then I'd avoid the HTC phones. Most of them run Windows Mobile so they are pretty similar.

Have you looked at the blackberry Curve? The Blackberries have a more simplistic interface than the Windows Mobile phones which can be good, however there is less 3rd party support (You won't find a PCAnywhere type program for it).

I used to use a T-Mobile Dash (Which is a HTC Phone) and was pretty happy with it. T-Mobile will be launching their new Android platform running on the HTC Dream this fall, so you might want to wait for that.

Of course, if your with AT&T, I'd have to suggest the new iPhone 3g.

I just didn't like the "touch". I want a keyboard. The sales lady told my son that the MotoQ had "issues", but his touch has developed some kind of problem and died yesterday after being in his possession less than 2 weeks. he wanted the next better HTC anyway. He wants to wait till payday (Tuesday) now because customer service said to exchange the bad phone and he gets 30 days to do so in person at a store. I was looking at some of the blackberries, but if they wont run PcAnywhere, then I'm not interested. The idea of being able to access the multi-manual or manual program start from my phone is really appealing. That or a web cam with zoom on a 20' tower on top of the shop. I don't like using the DTMF keys on the FM radios to run water when the course is FULL of paying customers. All I have to do is double clutch or slip a number and somebody gets plastered at around 25 gpm (give or take depending on the nozzle in a particular head)

On the same note with another question...........Will any of the smart phones (assuming I'm smart enough to set it up) dial in direct to the modem on my computer w/o using the internet for access? There is a part of me that fears opening an internet port so my irrigation can be run through that port.