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Weed Busters
07-31-2008, 07:19 PM
Just wondering what you guys are getting in your area per 1000 sq. ft. for your 5 to 8 application lawn treatment programs. I have been in the ag and aquatic spraying business for over 20 years and am getting into the lawns now with a partner. We don't want to be too much off the mark on the pricing, realizing that fertilizer may double again by next spring.

Thanks,
Jeff

ICT Bill
07-31-2008, 08:19 PM
Ferts will double from the same last year, some are trying to get set prices right now
good luck, look for an alternative, less inputs

rcreech
07-31-2008, 08:46 PM
If you want my honest opinion...I think you have picked the worst time to get into this business!

I was just talking to a fella a couple days ago, and my exact words to him was....."If I wasn't already in this business, there is no way I would get in it now!".

I say this because, not only inputs the highest they have ever been...but I don't think we have seen the highest yet!

With that said, margins are going to slide a little....and if you are not established how can you compete?

My prices will be much higher next year, but I have proven myself. Would a new customer pay a PREMIUM to a guy that is just getting in the business and has never applied?

Those are just the things that go through my head! Maybe I am washed up!

If you already are in a business such as mowing and are just adding chem a fert you are probably ok...but I just started my Lawn Health business from the ground up...and I don't think I could make it if I was starting right now!

heritage
07-31-2008, 08:59 PM
If you want my honest opinion...I think you have picked the worst time to get into this business!

I was just talking to a fella a couple days ago, and my exact words to him was....."If I wasn't already in this business, there is no way I would get in it now!".

I say this because, not only inputs the highest they have ever been...but I don't think we have seen the highest yet!

With that said, margins are going to slide a little....and if you are not established how can you compete?

My prices will be much higher next year, but I have proven myself. Would a new customer pay a PREMIUM to a guy that is just getting in the business and has never applied?

Those are just the things that go through my head! Maybe I am washed up!

If you already are in a business such as mowing and are just adding chem a fert you are probably ok...but I just started my Lawn Health business from the ground up...and I don't think I could make it if I was starting right now!

Agree!

Pete

Weed Busters
07-31-2008, 09:42 PM
Guys, I am not getting into this as a business. My buddy has had a lawn care business for years, but has no pesticide license. I am licensed in 7 catagories and have a successful ag, commercial and aquatic spray business but thought I could add a little to his business and add some to my business as well. This would probably be a few customers, mainly his current lawn accounts. We are in a rural area and don't have truegree to compare with, we really don't have anyone around here to compare with. Just want to give his customers a fair price.

Thanks

Whitey4
07-31-2008, 09:48 PM
Guys, I am not getting into this as a business. My buddy has had a lawn care business for years, but has no pesticide license. I am licensed in 7 catagories and have a successful ag, commercial and aquatic spray business but thought I could add a little to his business and add some to my business as well. This would probably be a few customers, mainly his current lawn accounts. We are in a rural area and don't have truegree to compare with, we really don't have anyone around here to compare with. Just want to give his customers a fair price.

Thanks

Prices vary WIDELY based on location and property sizes. Your friend in the lawn care business is leaving the most profiable piece of that pie on the table for someone else. Bad timing, perhaps, but not in the scenario you described.

rcreech
07-31-2008, 09:50 PM
Guys, I am not getting into this as a business. My buddy has had a lawn care business for years, but has no pesticide license. I am licensed in 7 catagories and have a successful ag, commercial and aquatic spray business but thought I could add a little to his business and add some to my business as well. This would probably be a few customers, mainly his current lawn accounts. We are in a rural area and don't have truegree to compare with, we really don't have anyone around here to compare with. Just want to give his customers a fair price.

Thanks

It will be a little tougher with the fert prices...but you will definitly have an upper hand if your buddy is already on a lot of lawns!

It should really be a pretty easy sale!

I am from the ag side also (farm and still sell seed, chem and fert on the side).

You will have a great advantage in turf since you already have a great background and understanding of the products/chemistry portion of the business!

The application is very important...but knowing what you are applying and why is even more important!

Good Luck!

whoopassonthebluegrass
07-31-2008, 10:23 PM
Best thing you could do is figure YOUR costs, shop YOUR local competitors, and then base it on that information...

FERT-TEK
08-01-2008, 05:59 PM
I am a solo operator in the Midwest using mostly Lebanon Pro-Scape fertilizers with MESA technology and Bayer specialty products. I would consider my program a "premium" one with five applications applying a total of four pounds of MESA nitrogen and one preventative grub control application per year. Everything else is pay as you go.

Enough of that, I currently charge $45.00 per 1000 sf. for the five step program which includes the above products and weed control with each application if needed. I do not know what next year will be, as this years prices are still going up. Unfortunately or fortunately all my customers are under contract which sets their prices for the season. May loose some next year due to increases.

rcreech
08-01-2008, 06:41 PM
[QUOTE=FERT-TEK;2446309]

Enough of that, I currently charge $45.00 per 1000 sf. for the five step program which includes the above products and weed control with each application if needed.
QUOTE]

So let me get this right....you would charge $450 for a 10K lawn?

Am I hearing your correctly?

Whitey4
08-01-2008, 07:37 PM
I am a solo operator in the Midwest using mostly Lebanon Pro-Scape fertilizers with MESA technology and Bayer specialty products. I would consider my program a "premium" one with five applications applying a total of four pounds of MESA nitrogen and one preventative grub control application per year. Everything else is pay as you go.

Enough of that, I currently charge $45.00 per 1000 sf. for the five step program which includes the above products and weed control with each application if needed. I do not know what next year will be, as this years prices are still going up. Unfortunately or fortunately all my customers are under contract which sets their prices for the season. May loose some next year due to increases.

I charge $30 to $45 PER APP here.... and the lawns run 2 to 4k. The only combo app I do is a pre-M. BL weed control is yet another app, as is spot spraying with Roundup Pro. Any insect contol is another app. Here, your program would bill at about 135 per year for a 3k lawn.... while my program would run $245 at the low end for 5 fert apps, one with Pre-M, and 3 weed control apps. I generally get more than that, even for a 3k lawn... more like $300. I'm cheaper than TG.... by a lot, and I'm also a Lebanon Mesa user.

I guess your pricing is based on large properties?

LIBERTYLANDSCAPING
08-01-2008, 07:49 PM
Rodney, I think he means $45/k per season........

Whitey4
08-01-2008, 07:56 PM
Rodney, I think he means $45/k per season........

Yeah, but isn't that still low even for the midwest? I guess it's all about property size.... for a 20k lawn, I would think that's about right... for an average subdivision type property, way low.

rcreech
08-01-2008, 07:57 PM
[QUOTE=Whitey4;2446445]I charge $30 to $45 PER APP here.... and the lawns run 2 to 4k. The only combo app I do is a pre-M. BL weed control is yet another app, as is spot spraying with Roundup Pro. Any insect contol is another app. Here, your program would bill at about 135 per year for a 3k lawn.... while my program would run $245 at the low end for 5 fert apps, one with Pre-M, and 3 weed control apps. I generally get more than that, even for a 3k lawn... more like $300. I'm cheaper than TG.... by a lot, and I'm also a Lebanon Mesa user.

Should have read ahead!

Yea....$35-40 per app makes sense...but not $35-40/K.

Whitey4
08-01-2008, 08:13 PM
He said per 1000 sq ft not per app.

I am actaully higher then TG and the others around!

You guys make more on a 4K lawn then I make on an acre! How does your customers go for that?

What would you guys charge on a 10K or 20K lawn or an acre?

Just curious to see where your prices break.

I have always thought it was neat to see the different pricing on here. You guys wouldn't charge that around here.

I also do a group of 3 houses, mowing, edging and pruning for $18 each house a week... they hired me together... so... I make it up on the apps. I DID low ball the maintenance, no doubt, but the going rate here is 20 to 28 bucks for a corner 5k property. It's marketing.... show em the low price for mowing, which is what they tend to scrutinize, and bang 'em hard for apps!

Those 3 houses pay me $120 a month for 10 months on my "payment plan". Only $72 of that goes towards mowing and blowing and that is only during the mowing season.... not March, not most of April and not Nov-Dec.... the rest is apps and spring and fall cleanups. Doesn't matter what service costs how much, it's the billings vs. material and time.

Also, remember, this is LI, NY.... so many controls are RUP or prohibited, getting a nice "Scotts TV commercial lawn" isn't so easy to do. Anyone can mow and blow.... and just about anyone does, for low ball prices. THAT is why my mowing prices are so low.... to be at market rates. I make it up with apps and plantings, mulching, etc....

One fungicide treatment? 3k with anderson's Phrophesy? $40. Chinch bugs? ProSect, $40. It's just the way THIS market works.... but in order to get those high profit margin apps, one has to mow in the sun almost for free.

group501
08-01-2008, 08:46 PM
Our min fert price is in the low $40.00 range for a 3k lawn. Prices go up between $5-7 per k per app. No grub or lime included in base program.

FERT-TEK
08-01-2008, 09:29 PM
[QUOTE=FERT-TEK;2446309]

Enough of that, I currently charge $45.00 per 1000 sf. for the five step program which includes the above products and weed control with each application if needed.
QUOTE]

So let me get this right....you would charge $450 for a 10K lawn?

Am I hearing your correctly?

First Rcreech let me say that you are one of the guys here that I respect and can count on for reliable straight forward answers. And I am not passing judgment on you or anyone with what I will type below

To quote Jim McMahn of the Tonight Show "You are correct sir".


To be successful I/we must know all of our costs! My program has proven results and provides the customer service those customers expect. Phone calls from me about problem areas, quality improvement surveys, uniforms clean truck and equipment personalized leave behind forms etc. I know all of my costs and overhead and that is my price for that service. First year customers also receive a soil test so there are no surprises for me.
In short Premium products and service cost a premium price. Hypothetically, I would rather loose one iffy customer looking for a deal and a perfect lawn so I can retain one that irrigates and mows properly and is willing to take optional services I offer. To help grow my business, I will offer discounts for signed contracts for neighbor referrals etc. Gets the customer working for me by looking for referrals to earn a discount.

Low balling will kill any industry including ours. And, low balling is exactly why I got out of the mowing end of the business in my area (Chicago Suburbs). This was mostly due to transient workers working for next to nothing and who disappear when things go wrong. Fortunately, the fertilization end of the business requires us to communicate with the customer and educate ourselves to some degree.

FERT-TEK
08-01-2008, 09:33 PM
I charge $30 to $45 PER APP here.... and the lawns run 2 to 4k. The only combo app I do is a pre-M. BL weed control is yet another app, as is spot spraying with Roundup Pro. Any insect contol is another app. Here, your program would bill at about 135 per year for a 3k lawn.... while my program would run $245 at the low end for 5 fert apps, one with Pre-M, and 3 weed control apps. I generally get more than that, even for a 3k lawn... more like $300. I'm cheaper than TG.... by a lot, and I'm also a Lebanon Mesa user.

I guess your pricing is based on large properties?

5 to 10 K properties my largest is 2.5 acre.

Whitey4
08-01-2008, 09:53 PM
Our min fert price is in the low $40.00 range for a 3k lawn. Prices go up between $5-7 per k per app. No grub or lime included in base program.

Thanks again for the regional pricing cross check. My summer app of fert is $30... it's a light N app, slow release. That is my cheapest app.... most run 36 to 45 bucks. As for lime, I test pH with a good accurate meter, and even ask the customer to watch. Lime apps are not in my basic program either. No grub control in my program either, unless I find a problem.

I'm starting to think a preventative fungus control should be added, because it's been so bad this year. Maybe it's just this year, but EVERY single one of my customers have fungus problems, myself included, as I'm about to apply it for a 3rd time this weekend. Dollar spot, and either brown or summer patch.... but I use controls labeled for both along with dollar spot. I find it difficult to make the ID differentiation between brown and summer patch. Others have talked about red thread, but after some spring treatments, haven't seen much of tthat here myself.

rcreech
08-01-2008, 09:56 PM
5 to 10 K properties my largest is 2.5 acre.

Thanks for your kind comments FERT TEK!

I agree that one must know their costs to make a profit...buy why do you have to charge so much? How do your prices compare to others in the area?

Why are your costs so high that you have to charge $40/k?

Is TG and your other competitors charging like that? If not, how do you differentiate yourself to be worth 5-10X more on each app?

Don't get me wrong....I am happy for you...but I just can't see how people can pay that much!

I definitly know my market area...and I am higher then most! I know what kind of money I make, so I couldn't imagine charging $40/k.

Maybe my costs are much lower or something but I make darn good money with my prices and they are just a fraction of yours.

Just curious to where your price/k goes to on larger lawns. Are you charging $40/k on an acre lawn? That is great that you can convince your customers that you are worth that!

I am surprised that people in ILL (center of farm country) pays that much for lawncare. I can see people in NY or the coast paying that much because they (the customer) knows very little about about product costs.

No matter what ones costs are...they have to know their market area. If ones costs are too high and therefore their prices have to be too high, one could possibly price themselves out of business if they don't watch.

Sorry for all the questions...but you just have me so curious to how you can charge so much?

Teach me so I can! :laugh:

cpel2004
08-01-2008, 10:04 PM
Teach all of us so we can be just like you.

FERT-TEK
08-01-2008, 10:12 PM
Rodney, I think he means $45/k per season........

"you are correct sir"

rcreech
08-01-2008, 10:16 PM
"you are correct sir"

I am confused now....

Do you charge a TOTAL of $45/K for the SEASON, or do you charge $45/K every time you treat the lawn?

I think I may have been reading it wrong or something?

Whitey4
08-01-2008, 10:19 PM
I am confused now....

Do you charge a TOTAL of $45/K for the SEASON, or do you charge $45/K every time you treat the lawn?

I think I may have been reading it wrong or something?

Rodney, you sure you went to college? :laugh: Yes, it's $45 per k per season! That, my friend, HERE, for a five step with weed control as needed is just about zero net profit!

rcreech
08-01-2008, 10:29 PM
Rodney, you sure you went to college? :laugh: Yes, it's $45 per k per season! That, my friend, HERE, for a five step with weed control as needed is just about zero net profit!

You guys inputs are much higher! You would die if you knew how low my product costs/k were.

I think we are all getting confused here...or atleast I am!

This is what I was asking a few posts back:


$45 x 10K = $450
$450x 5 apps/year = $2250 for a 10K lawn/season

If charging $45/k for the season then that is atleast reasonable. Still very, very high for here!

I guess I have never looked at it this way before (cost/k for the whole year). I look at my cost/K/app!

Tons of ways to look at it...one just has to be clear as it can be very confusing. I think a couple others were looking at it like I was.

Whitey4
08-01-2008, 10:48 PM
You guys inputs are much higher! You would die if you knew how low my product costs/k were.

I think we are all getting confused here...or atleast I am!

This is what I was asking a few posts back:


$45 x 10K = $450
$450x 5 apps/year = $2250 for a 10K lawn/season

If charging $45/k for the season then that is atleast reasonable. Still very, very high for here!

I guess I have never looked at it this way before (cost/k for the whole year). I look at my cost/K/app!

Tons of ways to look at it...one just has to be clear as it can be very confusing. I think a couple others were looking at it like I was.

Rodney.... he charges $45 per k for ALL 5 apps annually, including weed control! For the year! So, for 5 apps, including perhaps extra weed controls, he's getting $450 per YEAR for a 10k property.

$45 per k
10k = $450... for the entire season, not per app! I get $300 a year for a 3k property!

rcreech
08-01-2008, 10:58 PM
Rodney.... he charges $45 per k for ALL 5 apps annually, including weed control! For the year! So, for 5 apps, including perhaps extra weed controls, he's getting $450 per YEAR for a 10k property.

$45 per k
10k = $450... for the entire season, not per app! I get $300 a year for a 3k property!

Ok....that makes sense.

My bad!

If you read back, I think you will see what I was trying to ask. I was looking at it a totally different way.

Fert Tek would have been retiring very early with what I was thinking! :dizzy: That is why I was asking so many questions!

When I hear someone say they are charging so much/K...I take it as that is the cost each app. Again, I have never heard anyone say what they charge/K for the year. Just screwed me up a little.

Again, that is still much higher then I am, but as always stated we can't really compare prices on here due to so many variables.

Thanks,
RC

Whitey4
08-01-2008, 11:18 PM
Ok....that makes sense.

My bad!

If you read back, I think you will see what I was trying to ask. I was looking at it a totally different way.

Fert Tek would have been retiring very early with what I was thinking! :dizzy: That is why I was asking so many questions!

When I hear someone say they are charging so much/K...I take it as that is the cost each app. Again, I have never heard anyone say what they charge/K for the year. Just screwed me up a little.

Again, that is still much higher then I am, but as always stated we can't really compare prices on here due to so many variables.

Thanks,
RC



So you dont make $450 on a 10k lawn with five apps including all weed controls? No wonder you guys get in an uproar with fert prices! Think about it... I get $300 for a 3k, you get less than $450 on a 10k. Increases in fert prices just don't hit me as hard as it does you guys with the big properties. I can absorb a 20% material price increase a whole lot less painfully than you guys with the large lawns.

rcreech
08-02-2008, 07:17 AM
So you dont make $450 on a 10k lawn with five apps including all weed controls? No wonder you guys get in an uproar with fert prices! Think about it... I get $300 for a 3k, you get less than $450 on a 10k. Increases in fert prices just don't hit me as hard as it does you guys with the big properties. I can absorb a 20% material price increase a whole lot less painfully than you guys with the large lawns.

Do I need to type slower you can understand! :laugh: Read my posts again SLOWER!

I misunderstood what he was saying. Again, I thought he was charging that $45/K for each 1000 sq ft!

That was the way I originally read it!

Yes, there is NO WAY that I could charge $60/3K and make $450/year!

3K only meets my minimum and so I would be right around $36-40, but I only have about 8-10 lawns under 10K.

But no, I don't charge that much anyway and I can't for a couple reason.

1) I only four apps.
2) I can't charge as much /k as you guys due to my market.

We have been though this before on here Whitey...if I have to remind you!

Remember.....if I charged my prices up where you live I would GO BROKE, and if you came down here and charged your prices you wouldn't have ONE customer.

Most of this is due to market area, different input costs, and costs of living etc.

With the lawns I treat, the area between the sidewalk and streets are larger then most of your lawns! That makes a big difference!

On a 10K lawn I can only charge about $52 (or $5.20/k).

Keep in mind I also treat between 10-12 acres/day! With that said, I can't charge as much/K, but I still net very good $$$ as the volume and work and effecienies (ride on equipment) keep me VERY profitable.

But you have to keep in mind that my material cost and overhead is very low compared a lot of guys due to the volume handle. From what I have read and picked up on here....where you guys are buying your fert for $20-25/bag, I am buying truckloads and most of the fert I have in my barn I got for between $11.85 and $14.00 over the last 9 months.

I can promise you that lowballing isn't in my vocabulary, but yes I do charge much less then you and have to so I can survive!

FERT-TEK
08-02-2008, 07:35 AM
I am confused now....

Do you charge a TOTAL of $45/K for the SEASON, or do you charge $45/K every time you treat the lawn?

I think I may have been reading it wrong or something?

I charge 45.00 per 1000 sf. for the seasons package. I was wondering why you reacted the way you did. That pricing structure might be higher than some but in line with most of our industry in my area. I do not differentiate pricing for small or large lots. The only time my pricing goes up significantly is if the customer lives outside of my route. I am always trying to tighten that up.

FERT-TEK
08-02-2008, 07:45 AM
I am going to redo my contract for next year and offer preventative / curative fungus treatments. This will be an extra with an explanation of lawn fungus's affect lawns. You would be suprised how many people dont know fungus damage in their lawn when it is occurring. Ironically, they often confuse it with drought or grub damage and water.

FERT-TEK
08-02-2008, 07:57 AM
You guys inputs are much higher! You would die if you knew how low my product costs/k were.

I think we are all getting confused here...or atleast I am!

This is what I was asking a few posts back:


$45 x 10K = $450
$450x 5 apps/year = $2250 for a 10K lawn/season

If charging $45/k for the season then that is atleast reasonable. Still very, very high for here!

I guess I have never looked at it this way before (cost/k for the whole year). I look at my cost/K/app!

Tons of ways to look at it...one just has to be clear as it can be very confusing. I think a couple others were looking at it like I was.

$450 for the season, I think we are all on the same page now.

The reason I calculate that way is because my contract states what the season will cost the customer in full. My contract further states that before the first application goes down each season I require 1/2 of the total due for the season. This is due by March 15th and forces the customer to pay for their supplies and protects me from deadbeats somewhat.
The nice thing about this payment structure is that I have a good chunk of money coming in at the end of the season for tax time and new equipment if needed.

FERT-TEK
08-02-2008, 08:06 AM
Thanks for your kind comments FERT TEK!

I agree that one must know their costs to make a profit...buy why do you have to charge so much? How do your prices compare to others in the area?

Why are your costs so high that you have to charge $40/k?

Is TG and your other competitors charging like that? If not, how do you differentiate yourself to be worth 5-10X more on each app?

Don't get me wrong....I am happy for you...but I just can't see how people can pay that much!

I definitly know my market area...and I am higher then most! I know what kind of money I make, so I couldn't imagine charging $40/k.

Maybe my costs are much lower or something but I make darn good money with my prices and they are just a fraction of yours.

Just curious to where your price/k goes to on larger lawns. Are you charging $40/k on an acre lawn? That is great that you can convince your customers that you are worth that!

I am surprised that people in ILL (center of farm country) pays that much for lawncare. I can see people in NY or the coast paying that much because they (the customer) knows very little about about product costs.

No matter what ones costs are...they have to know their market area. If ones costs are too high and therefore their prices have to be too high, one could possibly price themselves out of business if they don't watch.

Sorry for all the questions...but you just have me so curious to how you can charge so much?

Teach me so I can! :laugh:

No problem, and I thought it was a misunderstanding, I should have been clearer in my explanation. My pricing for next year will go up accordingly, to maintain my margins. FYI, I am right in the ballpark with TGCL and sell myself on the customer service.

cod8825
08-02-2008, 09:45 AM
I am going to get my pricing for what my apps are going to be next year at the end of the season. Unfortunately I do not have the funds to buy next season's supplies now then I will make a determination about my pricing for next year.

MNmasterEXTERMINATOR
08-02-2008, 11:26 AM
Don'y any of you foresee the fert prices dropping? The increase in fert pricing right now is because of plants shutting down in china to decrease polution for the olympics. Energy prices should be dropping quite a bit this quarter and next also.

LushGreenLawn
08-02-2008, 11:56 AM
Don'y any of you foresee the fert prices dropping? The increase in fert pricing right now is because of plants shutting down in china to decrease polution for the olympics. Energy prices should be dropping quite a bit this quarter and next also.

Thats pretty interesting. What is your source on this information?

rcreech
08-02-2008, 02:20 PM
Don'y any of you foresee the fert prices dropping? The increase in fert pricing right now is because of plants shutting down in china to decrease polution for the olympics. Energy prices should be dropping quite a bit this quarter and next also.

I can promise you that the fert prices have nothing to do with the Olympics in China!

The fert prices are being strickly driven by supply and demand due to China and India...and the demand is only going to increase.

Right now I can get 0-0-60 for $817/ton but come Oct we are going to be looking at over $1000/ton.

I have heard however that is why the Gly prices are going up...but I think they too will stay up and even increase.

I also sell wholesale chemicals on the side and we have another large increase coming Aug 15th.

rcreech
08-02-2008, 02:22 PM
No problem, and I thought it was a misunderstanding, I should have been clearer in my explanation. My pricing for next year will go up accordingly, to maintain my margins. FYI, I am right in the ballpark with TGCL and sell myself on the customer service.

Sorry about that!

That makes total sense!

Now you see why I was asking all the questions!

I thought....how in the heck is this guy charging $45/K and people are paying for it! :laugh:

Anyway...I think I am on the same page now.....

Weed Busters
08-02-2008, 02:33 PM
I can promise you that the fert prices have nothing to do with the Olympics in China!

The fert prices are being strickly driven by supply and demand due to China and India...and the demand is only going to increase.

Right now I can get 0-0-60 for $817/ton but come Oct we are going to be looking at over $1000/ton.

I have heard however that is why the Gly prices are going up...but I think they too will stay up and even increase.

I also sell wholesale chemicals on the side and we have another large increase coming Aug 15th.


Gly has gone up because our dear friends at Monsanto purchased the 2 factories in China that were making generic gly, and then promptly shut them both down, creating their own shortage and thus driving the price up. Gly will come back down when the Chinese open another plant, nothing to do with the Olympics. This came to me from a rep, as I work in the Dept of Ag.

LIBERTYLANDSCAPING
08-02-2008, 02:33 PM
The Olympics HAVE caused some Chinese companies to scale back production-in many areas, not just fert. production. One reason is, the Olympics is a big PR event for them, and they have been trying to scale back the pollution to get the smog down, as that would be very embarrassing for them. That being said, I don't see any big drop coming anytime soon:cry: http://www.asianews.it/index.php?l=en&art=12830&size=A

The Chinese peoples diet's, as well as many others around the world are changing. They are now eating more grains & grain fed animals & growing more crops that require fertilizer. That coupled w/ the ethanol debacle is causing more acres to be put to corn & beans, which require more fert. as well. We also have lost over half of our urea manufacturing facilities in the US in the last 10 years. And the icing on the cake....Natural gas & crude prices continuing to be high. Not trying to be pessimistic, just looking at the facts:cry:

MNmasterEXTERMINATOR
08-02-2008, 02:56 PM
I know a guy that does a ton of import from china and visits China multiple times a year and married a chinese woman. He told me flat out that they shut down phosphorous plants and nitrogen plants to show the world it isn't polluted (which it is) for the olympics. That has cut supply next to nothing since they produce the majority of these chemicals. I dont remember who replied to my first post saying the olympics have nothing to do with it, but it is becasue of supply/demand, well buddy, the olympics shutting down plants has a direct impact on the supply factor, so you contradicited yourself. Agreed, China, India, etc. are using more of their ferts for at home use becasue they are sick of eating rice patties and want burgers now, so they have to feed cattle fert/grain. I think fert prices will come down after the olympics once china gets hungry for more money and they resume not caring about the environment. The world balances itself out after imbalances. If the world wants more of anything, businesses see that and start producing more of the product, driving costs towards equilibrium. People just get bent out of shape for a while thinking the world will end. I have talked to people earlier this year telling me gas will get to $8.00/ gallon. I knew it wouldn't happen. Everything balances out. As for Gly, isn't monsanto already working on a replacement for gly products that works the same, but contains a cheaper alternative?

MNmasterEXTERMINATOR
08-02-2008, 02:58 PM
Also, my fert prices have gone up 1.03 %. That is next too nothing. I buy from a coop.

Whitey4
08-02-2008, 03:22 PM
Do I need to type slower you can understand! :laugh: Read my posts again SLOWER!

I misunderstood what he was saying. Again, I thought he was charging that $45/K for each 1000 sq ft!

That was the way I originally read it!

Yes, there is NO WAY that I could charge $60/3K and make $450/year!

3K only meets my minimum and so I would be right around $36-40, but I only have about 8-10 lawns under 10K.

But no, I don't charge that much anyway and I can't for a couple reason.

1) I only four apps.
2) I can't charge as much /k as you guys due to my market.

We have been though this before on here Whitey...if I have to remind you!

Remember.....if I charged my prices up where you live I would GO BROKE, and if you came down here and charged your prices you wouldn't have ONE customer.

Most of this is due to market area, different input costs, and costs of living etc.

With the lawns I treat, the area between the sidewalk and streets are larger then most of your lawns! That makes a big difference!

On a 10K lawn I can only charge about $52 (or $5.20/k).

Keep in mind I also treat between 10-12 acres/day! With that said, I can't charge as much/K, but I still net very good $$$ as the volume and work and effecienies (ride on equipment) keep me VERY profitable.

But you have to keep in mind that my material cost and overhead is very low compared a lot of guys due to the volume handle. From what I have read and picked up on here....where you guys are buying your fert for $20-25/bag, I am buying truckloads and most of the fert I have in my barn I got for between $11.85 and $14.00 over the last 9 months.

I can promise you that lowballing isn't in my vocabulary, but yes I do charge much less then you and have to so I can survive!

Rodney, not too much of an over reaction! I did not insuate you were low balling at all... I was just summarizing the differences in our markets and pricing structures.... and mentioning how fert prices hurt guys like you more than it does a small volume user like myself. It wasn't that I needed any reminding... I remain aware of the market differences we have.

Fert-Tec's way of pricing was just another way to compare these differences. He gets $45 per k per year with his program, which is similar to mine, but I average about $100 per k per year, and I'm almost a lowballer here at that price.

You guys need big machines, Perma Greens and all that... I use backpacks and broadcast spreaders. This is a big reason why I don't chase large properties or commercials. I don't have the equipment for it. It's an entirely different world, and I remain aware of that fact.

But I was surprised it took you so long to understand his pricing structure. I thought it was make very clear in his first post.... I don't price like that either, I do it per application, but I thought it was simple enuff! Didn't mean to ruffle yer feathers!:)

rcreech
08-02-2008, 04:55 PM
I know a guy that does a ton of import from china and visits China multiple times a year and married a chinese woman. He told me flat out that they shut down phosphorous plants and nitrogen plants to show the world it isn't polluted (which it is) for the olympics. That has cut supply next to nothing since they produce the majority of these chemicals. I dont remember who replied to my first post saying the olympics have nothing to do with it, but it is becasue of supply/demand, well buddy, the olympics shutting down plants has a direct impact on the supply factor, so you contradicited yourself. Agreed, China, India, etc. are using more of their ferts for at home use becasue they are sick of eating rice patties and want burgers now, so they have to feed cattle fert/grain. I think fert prices will come down after the olympics once china gets hungry for more money and they resume not caring about the environment. The world balances itself out after imbalances. If the world wants more of anything, businesses see that and start producing more of the product, driving costs towards equilibrium. People just get bent out of shape for a while thinking the world will end. I have talked to people earlier this year telling me gas will get to $8.00/ gallon. I knew it wouldn't happen. Everything balances out. As for Gly, isn't monsanto already working on a replacement for gly products that works the same, but contains a cheaper alternative?


We are shipping the P over there! I don't think there is any such thing as a "phosphrus plant" as it is mined from the ground and not manufactured.

rcreech
08-02-2008, 04:57 PM
Rodney, not too much of an over reaction! I did not insuate you were low balling at all... I was just summarizing the differences in our markets and pricing structures.... and mentioning how fert prices hurt guys like you more than it does a small volume user like myself. It wasn't that I needed any reminding... I remain aware of the market differences we have.

Fert-Tec's way of pricing was just another way to compare these differences. He gets $45 per k per year with his program, which is similar to mine, but I average about $100 per k per year, and I'm almost a lowballer here at that price.

You guys need big machines, Perma Greens and all that... I use backpacks and broadcast spreaders. This is a big reason why I don't chase large properties or commercials. I don't have the equipment for it. It's an entirely different world, and I remain aware of that fact.

But I was surprised it took you so long to understand his pricing structure. I thought it was make very clear in his first post.... I don't price like that either, I do it per application, but I thought it was simple enuff! Didn't mean to ruffle yer feathers!:)

No big deal!

I was confused and that is why I was asking questions!

Sometimes I am a little slow! :laugh:

rcreech
08-02-2008, 04:59 PM
The Olympics HAVE caused some Chinese companies to scale back production-in many areas, not just fert. production. One reason is, the Olympics is a big PR event for them, and they have been trying to scale back the pollution to get the smog down, as that would be very embarrassing for them. That being said, I don't see any big drop coming anytime soon:cry: http://www.asianews.it/index.php?l=en&art=12830&size=A

The Chinese peoples diet's, as well as many others around the world are changing. They are now eating more grains & grain fed animals & growing more crops that require fertilizer. That coupled w/ the ethanol debacle is causing more acres to be put to corn & beans, which require more fert. as well. We also have lost over half of our urea manufacturing facilities in the US in the last 10 years. And the icing on the cake....Natural gas & crude prices continuing to be high. Not trying to be pessimistic, just looking at the facts:cry:

That is a very good and clear explanation! :clapping:

LushGreenLawn
08-02-2008, 05:00 PM
[QUOTE=rcreech;2447684]We are shipping the P over there! I don't think there is any such thing as a "phosphrus plant" as it is mined from the ground and not manufactured.[/QUOTE

Sounds like his "source" is a nutjob!

MNmasterEXTERMINATOR
08-02-2008, 05:52 PM
They have to process the raw materials. Just as we have taconite plants, etc. They have to have a plant of some sort to process and distribute whatever they are mining. You think they take rock from the ground, put it in a bag and its fert! Do your research, please, pretty please before you start arguing over stupid stuff. That is correct, we do ship phosphorous over there, also we get it from them. That is how the world markets work. Wow you learned something. The top three producers of phosphorous are US, India , and ???China, so if there is a bump in production, supply drops. Hence, price up, supply down. I was never saying the whole reason is the olympics, but a cause.

rcreech
08-02-2008, 10:10 PM
They have to process the raw materials. Just as we have taconite plants, etc. They have to have a plant of some sort to process and distribute whatever they are mining. You think they take rock from the ground, put it in a bag and its fert! Do your research, please, pretty please before you start arguing over stupid stuff. That is correct, we do ship phosphorous over there, also we get it from them. That is how the world markets work. Wow you learned something. The top three producers of phosphorous are US, India , and ???China, so if there is a bump in production, supply drops. Hence, price up, supply down. I was never saying the whole reason is the olympics, but a cause.


I don't know much about the way P is processed and don't really care! I know there is some kinda acid used bla, bla, bla, but I wasn't intersted in listening that day in class (could have been my a.d.d. kicking in :laugh:)

Anywho, as stated earlier, the MAIN reason for the incline in P and K is due to the increase in demand for protein from India and China. We used to have ample supply here in the US and it was ALWAYS a cheap commodity! Now we, here is the US have a very limited supply because it is all going on barges!

Over the last three years P and K have shot through the roof and we havn't seen anything yet. K is expected to increase another 20% and P is supposed to go up but not at the same pace.

MNmasterEXTERMINATOR
08-02-2008, 10:33 PM
Exactly, China has shut down N & P plants for the olympics. They are the #1 importer of the product now because they are not producing as much. Hopefully after the olympics, they will be able to spray their fields with thier own fert, and stop buying everyone else's and maybe a price break will ensue, hopefully. Maybe not though.

PHS
08-03-2008, 08:01 AM
The world balances itself out after imbalances. If the world wants more of anything, businesses see that and start producing more of the product, driving costs towards equilibrium. People just get bent out of shape for a while thinking the world will end.

I agree with that. Prices of products won't continue to skyrocket forever (assuming the dollar stays more or less stable). Just because products are being sold on a global market doesn't mean that every other country except for the US has an unlimited ability to pay and we're the only ones forced to cut back.

China may have a hankering for hamburgers but there's a limit to what they can pay for a Big Mac just like there is for us. India may want to be driving more cars but if gas reached $8/g like everyone was predicting a month ago, there isn't going to be a line around the corner of people buying cars. Indians have a budget just like we do.