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Runner
08-01-2008, 08:26 PM
I'm hoping you guys may be able to help me out. I have a friend that just called me, and has a question. He has been using a mix of bifenthrin and imidicloprid to do foliar sprays for Japanese Beetle as well as a few other pests. This mix is with .5 oz. per gallon. Now,...he has 4 Birch trees that are wilting in leaf and dropping. I told him that it may be just coincidental, and that this might just be brought on from the culmination of heat stress. I also said that it is possible that it could be some sort of fungus (as conditions have been perfect). He said he has not yet been able to see the leaves yet (this was just a call he got). He is gong to get some clippings and show them to me, so I can get some photos. He also said that out of many other birch trees he has treated, no other trees have done this. I know that this is probably brought on from the causes stated above, but he is pretty upset (worried) and wanted me to ask you guys if anyone has had any experience with this. Thanks ahead, guys...and hopefully you will be able to add some insight. :walking:

LIBERTYLANDSCAPING
08-01-2008, 08:53 PM
I spray that same mix, & have never seen that cause the described symptoms:confused:

I don't know about up there in Flint, but we could really use some rain, especially with these high temps we've had! I've been noticing some leaf wilt & some even falling off of some smaller maples.

ICT Bill
08-01-2008, 08:58 PM
IPM methods are important
It is important to know what the expected results of those chemicals combined are
Has the LCO ever combined those 2 before and what were the results

Jap beetles go away after a couple more weeks, it would be better to be proactive next year and try to ruin their life as a grub than as an active beetle during the year

Pretty futile, but customers call and say GET R DUN I want dead beetles

The smarter route is to explain the life cycle, and how you can help next year.

Grandview
08-01-2008, 09:00 PM
Sounds like some kind of herbicide contamination in the spray. Those are gut wrenching calls when you get them.

LIBERTYLANDSCAPING
08-01-2008, 09:27 PM
Jap beetles go away after a couple more weeks, it would be better to be proactive next year and try to ruin their life as a grub than as an active beetle during the year

.


Jap. beetles fly for MILES! You can't prevent plant damage on your property by treating the larvae state. :dizzy:

PSUTURFGEEK
08-01-2008, 09:51 PM
Also check the temps when it was sprayed, on more than one occassion I have seen damage like this from the phytotoxicity of the insecticide on a hot day.

Rayholio
08-01-2008, 11:01 PM
I have had the same problem.. on blue spruces.. every time it was on a hot day.. but none of the labels warn of phytotoxicity.. so WTF?

rcreech
08-01-2008, 11:51 PM
IPM methods are important
It is important to know what the expected results of those chemicals combined are
Has the LCO ever combined those 2 before and what were the results

Jap beetles go away after a couple more weeks, it would be better to be proactive next year and try to ruin their life as a grub than as an active beetle during the year

Pretty futile, but customers call and say GET R DUN I want dead beetles

The smarter route is to explain the life cycle, and how you can help next year.


Two things:

You are correct that you want to explain the lifestyle to the customer, but that doesn't help anything. I love to tell people how the grub and the beetle are "the same" as this is very important but.....

1) No matter what you do...you will never be able to control all Jap Beetles.
2) If you don't control Jap Beetles in a timely manner, they can defoliate a tree in several hours to days depending on their numbers!

ICT Bill
08-02-2008, 10:53 AM
1) No matter what you do...you will never be able to control all Jap Beetles.
2) If you don't control Jap Beetles in a timely manner, they can defoliate a tree in several hours to days depending on their numbers!

rcreech, you are correct on both

heritage
08-02-2008, 01:09 PM
I'm hoping you guys may be able to help me out. I have a friend that just called me, and has a question. He has been using a mix of bifenthrin and imidicloprid to do foliar sprays for Japanese Beetle as well as a few other pests. This mix is with .5 oz. per gallon. Now,...he has 4 Birch trees that are wilting in leaf and dropping. I told him that it may be just coincidental, and that this might just be brought on from the culmination of heat stress. I also said that it is possible that it could be some sort of fungus (as conditions have been perfect). He said he has not yet been able to see the leaves yet (this was just a call he got). He is gong to get some clippings and show them to me, so I can get some photos. He also said that out of many other birch trees he has treated, no other trees have done this. I know that this is probably brought on from the causes stated above, but he is pretty upset (worried) and wanted me to ask you guys if anyone has had any experience with this. Thanks ahead, guys...and hopefully you will be able to add some insight. :walking:

Hi Runner,

Use .5 oz to 3 GAL of water, insted of 1 Gal. That is 18 oz per 100 Gallon rate. 43 oz per 100 Gal is the High Rate, and .43 oz per Gal would be the high rate into a gallon.......But there is a "Catch".


Most of us Tree/Shrub guys are applying with Big Tanks and Higher Pressures, AND our "Finished Spray Volume" is 300-400 Gallons Per Surface Acre Covered.

When applying with a "Backpack" and the much lower pressures, you will end up using more finished spray per surface acre, trying to get good coverage with larger droplets.

So this could and does cause Phytotoxic issues often on hotter days.

How do you get the correct dose for the Merit tank mix???

I add one 1.6 oz packet of the Merit 75 WSP, to 1.5 gallons of water in a 2.5 gallon container with 1/2 gallon marks on the side, and Merit Lable "Clear Taped" to the container.

I add 1/2 gallon solution (always shake well first) per 100 gal water OR 1 quart per 50 Gallons water, which puts me @ the 1.6 oz packet per 300 Gallon Foliar Rate.

Since you use 1 gallon Finished mixes, you could add one 1.6 oz WSP to 300 oz water, and use 1 oz of that "Stock Solution" (shake well first) to a Gallon of water.

1 Level Teaspoon of the Talstar F would be .16 oz into a gallon of water, which is close enough to the .18 oz per gallon IMO.


This will be "Safe" on those hotter days with the "Backpack" sprayer, and you will still get QUICK KNOCKDOWN results with this mix on the Jap Beetles.

Enjoy,

Pete

greendoctor
08-02-2008, 04:07 PM
Hi Runner,

Use .5 oz to 3 GAL of water, insted of 1 Gal. That is 18 oz per 100 Gallon rate. 43 oz per 100 Gal is the High Rate, and .43 oz per Gal would be the high rate into a gallon.......But there is a "Catch".


Most of us Tree/Shrub guys are applying with Big Tanks and Higher Pressures, AND our "Finished Spray Volume" is 300-400 Gallons Per Surface Acre Covered.

When applying with a "Backpack" and the much lower pressures, you will end up using more finished spray per surface acre, trying to get good coverage with larger droplets.

So this could and does cause Phytotoxic issues often on hotter days.

How do you get the correct dose for the Merit tank mix???

I add one 1.6 oz packet of the Merit 75 WSP, to 1.5 gallons of water in a 2.5 gallon container with 1/2 gallon marks on the side, and Merit Lable "Clear Taped" to the container.

I add 1/2 gallon solution (always shake well first) per 100 gal water OR 1 quart per 50 Gallons water, which puts me @ the 1.6 oz packet per 300 Gallon Foliar Rate.

Since you use 1 gallon Finished mixes, you could add one 1.6 oz WSP to 300 oz water, and use 1 oz of that "Stock Solution" (shake well first) to a Gallon of water.

1 Level Teaspoon of the Talstar F would be .16 oz into a gallon of water, which is close enough to the .18 oz per gallon IMO.


This will be "Safe" on those hotter days with the "Backpack" sprayer, and you will still get QUICK KNOCKDOWN results with this mix on the Jap Beetles.

Enjoy,

Pete

You made some very good points about coverage and concentration of spray solution. I normally use 0.25-0.5 oz Talstar in 7 gallons to cover 1000 sq ft. If I am not mistaken, the maximum rate for 1000 sq ft is 1 oz. I do not know of anything other than a mist blower with a ULV nozzle that can spray trees and shrubs using only 1 or 2 gallons per 1000. I do not have Japanese Beetles, but whitefly and mealybugs are chronic problems here.

tremor
08-02-2008, 05:26 PM
Joe,

.5 oz/gal is a pretty high rate for every day tree sprays but I don't believe this is the problem. Go carefully examine these birches for borers, mites, rooting, soil moisture, etc.

grassguy_
08-02-2008, 05:46 PM
I have had some scorch problems with Talstar before in the heat on jap Maples, but don't think the .5oz/gal rate would be the problem.

heritage
08-02-2008, 07:42 PM
Joe,

.5 oz/gal is a pretty high rate for every day tree sprays but I don't believe this is the problem. Go carefully examine these birches for borers, mites, rooting, soil moisture, etc.

On the Birch it's not uncommon for the OLDEST leaves to yellow and drop in a Drought situation. The tree will do this so less moisture is lost thru leaves, as a water conserving strategy.

Look at the trees newest growth to determine plant health.

Pete

heritage
08-02-2008, 07:47 PM
I have had some scorch problems with Talstar before in the heat on jap Maples, but don't think the .5oz/gal rate would be the problem.

This is a problem with the Jap. Maple's until the leaves have reached their mature size.....Thereafter you are safe with Bifenthrin.

During the leaf expansion (spring) of Jap Maple, Cankerworms are common.......I use Sevin OR Orthene with no injury issues.

By June 10th here in zone 6, I have had no issues with Onyx (bifenthrin) on the Jap Maples.


Pete

teeca
08-02-2008, 08:19 PM
Also check the temps when it was sprayed, on more than one occassion I have seen damage like this from the phytotoxicity of the insecticide on a hot day.

i second that, temps do play a major factor in applications.. i personaly use orthene for the beattles, merit is to expensive for my blood to wast on them. or i use astro (permethrin) for the fast, no residule kill.

PSUTURFGEEK
08-02-2008, 09:42 PM
Totally agree, orthene,acephate,lescofate, all good choices. and as far as merit or even generic Imo your'e right, itreally is kind of a waste of money as a foliar application, I don't know what the final numbers are but after talking to a bayer rep a few weeks back he said that had alot to do with the sales of allectus sc being as low as they are.

Fert33
08-02-2008, 09:58 PM
I'm hoping you guys may be able to help me out. I have a friend that just called me, and has a question. He has been using a mix of bifenthrin and imidicloprid to do foliar sprays for Japanese Beetle as well as a few other pests. This mix is with .5 oz. per gallon. Now,...he has 4 Birch trees that are wilting in leaf and dropping. I told him that it may be just coincidental, and that this might just be brought on from the culmination of heat stress. I also said that it is possible that it could be some sort of fungus (as conditions have been perfect). He said he has not yet been able to see the leaves yet (this was just a call he got). He is gong to get some clippings and show them to me, so I can get some photos. He also said that out of many other birch trees he has treated, no other trees have done this. I know that this is probably brought on from the causes stated above, but he is pretty upset (worried) and wanted me to ask you guys if anyone has had any experience with this. Thanks ahead, guys...and hopefully you will be able to add some insight. :walking:

I would wait to speculate the problem until he looks at the fallen leaves. I know that leaves that have been previously eaten or damaged by beetles or other insects may drop. I have personally seen that be the case after I have sprayed trees that were infested. If there is wilting in conjunction with the leaves dropping, then it may be a situation where it was too hot to spray. It's tough to say without knowing what the trees look like. Good Luck!

heritage
08-02-2008, 10:53 PM
Totally agree, orthene,acephate,lescofate, all good choices. and as far as merit or even generic Imo your'e right, itreally is kind of a waste of money as a foliar application, I don't know what the final numbers are but after talking to a bayer rep a few weeks back he said that had alot to do with the sales of allectus sc being as low as they are.

I would respectfully disagree about the Foliar Merit being a waste of money for Jap Beetles on Ornamentals.

As I see/know it, the acephate only remains in the leaf for 2 weeks. The foliar merit 4-6 weeks.

In my area Jap beetles will feed late june- early aug.

The addition of Merit is .09 cents a gallon finished spray @ the Foliar rate, and is Cheap Insurance for a Clients Happiness and Remaing Trust.

Pete

Fert33
08-02-2008, 11:06 PM
I don't know, that 4-6 week residual has never held true for me. I think It's more like 2-3 weeks. I don't care what the label says. In my case it wasn't cost effective. It wasn't applicator error either. I was able to get complete coverage and still did not have the results that I desired. I guess it depends on the success rate others have had.

teeca
08-03-2008, 10:58 AM
I would respectfully disagree about the Foliar Merit being a waste of money for Jap Beetles on Ornamentals.

As I see/know it, the acephate only remains in the leaf for 2 weeks. The foliar merit 4-6 weeks.

In my area Jap beetles will feed late june- early aug.

The addition of Merit is .09 cents a gallon finished spray @ the Foliar rate, and is Cheap Insurance for a Clients Happiness and Remaing Trust.

Pete

i guess i should have not said wast money, every property is different and so is the area you live in. i have several properties that have a boat load of lindens, and i make 2 apps per season. i have found that if i hit them hard on the first app, the second 30-45days later is not that bad. the worst is having the guy next door with the pharomone trap:dizzy:

phasthound
08-03-2008, 11:28 AM
I wouldn't diagnose anything without seeing it.

When I relied exclusively on the chemical approach, we had great success and made tons of money by applying merit as soil drench in the fall. Get your clients with known history of jab beetle and/or birch leaf miner on this preventative program. Do not use merit for controlling hemlock wholly adelgid, you will most likely end up with a mite problem.

While I will do chem treatment for infestations, I have also been having success by following up with cultural practices & natural products to reduce future insect attacks. This has become another source of income & makes me feel good. :)

heritage
08-03-2008, 04:13 PM
i guess i should have not said wast money, every property is different and so is the area you live in. i have several properties that have a boat load of lindens, and i make 2 apps per season. i have found that if i hit them hard on the first app, the second 30-45days later is not that bad. the worst is having the guy next door with the pharomone trap:dizzy:

Teeca,

Oh yes those sex lure/Floral attractant traps are only good for one thing....Monitoring :) Other than that, just cause more problems, I agree!

Pete

heritage
08-03-2008, 04:24 PM
I wouldn't diagnose anything without seeing it.

When I relied exclusively on the chemical approach, we had great success and made tons of money by applying merit as soil drench in the fall. Get your clients with known history of jab beetle and/or birch leaf miner on this preventative program. Do not use merit for controlling hemlock wholly adelgid, you will most likely end up with a mite problem.

While I will do chem treatment for infestations, I have also been having success by following up with cultural practices & natural products to reduce future insect attacks. This has become another source of income & makes me feel good. :)

Barry,

A Good Plant Health Care Specialist will use ALL the methods you listed above and more :)


We are trying to get the plants comfortable and sustained as much as we can, like their native Forests/Grassland Pastures.

Mono cultures planted because of an "Aesthetic Effect" desired by both client and Architect will need our help strongly Biased with "Chemical Controls"

Kinda like Suburbia in Arizona.........They have their water piped in.....because it is possible.

The approach like mono cultures are not "Sustainable" though, without our help, using "Modern Methods" regardless of what Liberal Treehugger's may think....And it's LEGAL :usflag:

Enjoy,

Pete

phasthound
08-03-2008, 06:21 PM
Hey Pete,

Yup I agree. My definition of plant health care is that it is the foundation of IPM. By promoting horticulturaly sound cultural practices and improving soil organic matter, many problems can be prevented. This does not exclude the use of pesticides when you need to control something fast.

Pesticides are useful when used wisely, but I do not think it is wise to continually apply them year after year after year......for the same problem. I've done it & came to the conclusion that I was killing bugs, but the plants were still unhealthy.

I began to focus more on the whole premise of IPM techniques, as opposed to just monitoring & spot spraying.
The more I looked, the more I found out how important the life in the soils was to providing healthy vigorous plants that will have less pest problems.

Routine pesticide applications IMHO do not provide good long term results. I have found that when I educate my clients regarding the interactions of nature and our well being, many understand and become happy long-term well-paying clients. In our application business, I do not attract clients who demand a perfect, weed free yard for $25-50 per visit, nor do I want them.

In our wholesale business, we provide products that we have tested in the field and are cost effective with good results. If you need to buy pesticides and synthetic fertilizers, you have many to chose from. If you are looking for a different approach that you can blend in with your regular routine, we may be able to help. :)

heritage
08-03-2008, 08:53 PM
Hey Pete,

Yup I agree. My definition of plant health care is that it is the foundation of IPM. By promoting horticulturaly sound cultural practices and improving soil organic matter, many problems can be prevented. This does not exclude the use of pesticides when you need to control something fast.

Pesticides are useful when used wisely, but I do not think it is wise to continually apply them year after year after year......for the same problem. I've done it & came to the conclusion that I was killing bugs, but the plants were still unhealthy.

I began to focus more on the whole premise of IPM techniques, as opposed to just monitoring & spot spraying.
The more I looked, the more I found out how important the life in the soils was to providing healthy vigorous plants that will have less pest problems.

Routine pesticide applications IMHO do not provide good long term results. I have found that when I educate my clients regarding the interactions of nature and our well being, many understand and become happy long-term well-paying clients. In our application business, I do not attract clients who demand a perfect, weed free yard for $25-50 per visit, nor do I want them.

In our wholesale business, we provide products that we have tested in the field and are cost effective with good results. If you need to buy pesticides and synthetic fertilizers, you have many to chose from. If you are looking for a different approach that you can blend in with your regular routine, we may be able to help. :)

Thanks Barry,

I get your mailers all the time, and I am sure you have a good product line.

When I bring on employees, I will market an Organic Plan.......This is in the not too distant future.

Pete

philk17088
08-04-2008, 06:34 PM
Another factor to consider.
Did the actual temperature of the spray mix get hot?
I have scorched trees with the material that was in the hose baking in the sun.It is hot enough to cook leaves.

greendoctor
08-05-2008, 03:46 AM
Good practice is to spray material sitting in a hose for more than a few minutes back into the tank. This is mandatory when using oil, should be done for all products. I do not know of anything that does not separate or settle to the bottom when not under agitation other than Safari. Water left in a hose in the sun gets hot. I would never dream of hosing down plants with hot water.

Runner
08-05-2008, 11:47 PM
Wow...Now THIS is a great point! I've done it in the past, but never thought of mentioning it.

humble1
08-05-2008, 11:58 PM
Jap. beetles fly for MILES! You can't prevent plant damage on your property by treating the larvae state. :dizzy:

second that motion

DUSTYCEDAR
08-06-2008, 12:00 AM
that could be it

Runner
08-06-2008, 12:08 AM
Hey, congrats on the 3000th post, Dusty!
Anyway, i have spoke with John, and he said these trees are doing fine, now. It appears that perhaps it was just some subsequential heat stress. I sure appreciate all the input, and would also like to extend a thank you from John, my friend whom had this situation.

humble1
08-06-2008, 12:21 AM
I'm hoping you guys may be able to help me out. I have a friend that just called me, and has a question. He has been using a mix of bifenthrin and imidicloprid to do foliar sprays for Japanese Beetle as well as a few other pests. This mix is with .5 oz. per gallon. Now,...he has 4 Birch trees that are wilting in leaf and dropping. I told him that it may be just coincidental, and that this might just be brought on from the culmination of heat stress. I also said that it is possible that it could be some sort of fungus (as conditions have been perfect). He said he has not yet been able to see the leaves yet (this was just a call he got). He is gong to get some clippings and show them to me, so I can get some photos. He also said that out of many other birch trees he has treated, no other trees have done this. I know that this is probably brought on from the causes stated above, but he is pretty upset (worried) and wanted me to ask you guys if anyone has had any experience with this. Thanks ahead, guys...and hopefully you will be able to add some insight. :walking:

What was the temp when he sprayed?

Runner
08-06-2008, 12:33 AM
It was actually cool...around the high 60's, and early in the morning. It didn't get that hot that day or the days that followed, either (low to mid 80's).