St Augustine struggling in Atlanta, GA

[23cmcnitt23]

I installed St Augustine in my backyard 3 summers ago. The back is partial shade and we are in a drought. I try to make sure it gets about an inch a week of water. The problem is the grass is really starting to thin out and I have large bare spots throughout the lawn. My lawn service recently treated the grass with liquid fertilizer (28-0-0), Iron with micronutrients, and Meridian insecticide.

Just wondering if you have any suggestions to make the grass thicker/hardier and to treat these large bare areas? I was going to lay down manure/compost in these areas because the soil doesn't look too healthy and the roots are exposed.

Any suggestions are appreciated.

[RAlmaroad]

I installed St Augustine in my backyard 3 summers ago. The back is partial shade and we are in a drought. I try to make sure it gets about an inch a week of water. The problem is the grass is really starting to thin out and I have large bare spots throughout the lawn. My lawn service recently treated the grass with liquid fertilizer (28-0-0), Iron with micronutrients, and Meridian insecticide.

Just wondering if you have any suggestions to make the grass thicker/hardier and to treat these large bare areas? I was going to lay down manure/compost in these areas because the soil doesn't look too healthy and the roots are exposed.

Any suggestions are appreciated.

I'm by all means not the pro here. Greendoctor is the amazing and I'm sure he will tell you what the St. Augustine needs when he reads this. BUT I see that a major problems is that you need a lot of Potassium Nitrate. Without it, your root system is starved. Get that lousy company to lay down about 1/2lb of liquid potassium Nitrate per 1000sq. ft. and water it in now, then fire them. St. Augustine is the biggest Nitrogen lover of all grasses. It needs 1/2lb/M about every 5 weeks. That 28-0-0 is only about 1/4lb. Do they apply this every month? If not, you are way way under fertilized!!! The micros will go a long way to help but your're only getting 1/2 of the proper fertilizer for any lawn. That lawn is going to have to be spoon fed every two weeks, if it is going to survive. Roy

[South Florida Lawns]

Trim your trees and water more. Sounds like you aren't getting enough sunlight.

[dave k]

Ditto on the shade, it needs sun, is it floratam? I had that in Fl. when I lived there and on sides of homes where there were shade it was always thin.

[23cmcnitt23]

Thanks for all the response. I thought I would post some pictures to see what you thought. The 1st, 4th, and 5th pictures are in areas that get good sun. Just wondering if you think something else might be going on here besides lack of sun and watering?
Thanks.

PS: The grass is Mercedes St Augustine

[greendoctor]

I actually think the problem looks fungal. Watering grass in enclosed partially shady areas is tricky. How is the drainage? In heat and humidity, as what is typical in the South, st augustine can develop many fungal diseases. Your grass looks way too green. This is coming from a guy that sprays a liqiud on a lawn every month 12 months out of the year here in Hawaii. I do not have a soil or tissue test in front of me, but that looks like what happens when there is too much nitrogen and not enough potassium. When a corporate application company adds micronutrients to a mix it is almost pure iron. That is the other thing that stands out from the pictures. A good way to burn out a lawn is to keep pushing it with iron and nitrogen without feeding it anything else. Especially in shade. I never push grass in the shade with high N. I will be more liberal with K and P if indicated by a soil test. My liquid mixes are high potassium and contain all of the other micronutrients. I usually apply 23-0-23 to centipede and 30-0-23 to the other grasses along with a soluble micronutrient mix. My lawns are not as green as your grass, but they resist stress much better than the average lawn. Your lawn company should be looking for signs of disease. That does not look like chinch bug or grubs. Even if it were, Meridian(Thiametoxam) is best used to prevent grubs like Merit. I would not apply a product like that in the face of an active infestation. Besides, Meridian is a severe groundwater pollutant. It leaches. I would be very impressed with your lawn service if they were targeting Take All and brown patch. I would be more impressed if they were applying a 1-0-1 ratio liquid or after drawing a soil test, formulating according to the test results. But they are not me.

[RAlmaroad]

Just a thought: Do you have children that might have gotten out of that pool and ran into the lawn while wet a number of times? Follow greendoctor's advise and get a soil test. You can do it yourself by calling you local county extension agent for instructions. Roy

[Lawn-Sharks]

Are you getting any pool water splash on you lawn?????

[23cmcnitt23]

No I don't believe it is related to the pool. We almost always walk across our deck to get to/from the pool and I do have one child but she is only 18 months old and stays near us all the time.

I will try to get a soil test done as soon as possible and post my results when I get them.

[23cmcnitt23]

I just got back the results of my soil sample that I send to University of Georgia:

Phosphorus=232 lbs/acre
Potassium=470 lbs/acre
Calcium=3054 lbs/acre
Magnesium=281 lbs/acre
Zinc=33 lbs/acre
pH=5.9

They recommend 3 pounds of 34-0-0 or 2 lbs of 46-0-0 per 1000 square feet in spring, mid-June, Early August, and September.

Does this change anyone's thoughts about what is happening with my lawn?

Also, I was wondering if I could overseed the bare spots with another type of grass that might overtake the St Augustine? I'm not a huge fan of this grass.

[RAlmaroad]

I just got back the results of my soil sample that I send to University of Georgia:

Phosphorus=232 lbs/acre
Potassium=470 lbs/acre
Calcium=3054 lbs/acre
Magnesium=281 lbs/acre
Zinc=33 lbs/acre
pH=5.9

They recommend 3 pounds of 34-0-0 or 2 lbs of 46-0-0 per 1000 square feet in spring, mid-June, Early August, and September.

Does this change anyone's thoughts about what is happening with my lawn?

Also, I was wondering if I could overseed the bare spots with another type of grass that might overtake the St Augustine? I'm not a huge fan of this grass.


That seems like way too much Nitrogen at one time. Did you notice that they have NOT put any potassium in the analysis of fertilizer. St. Augustine needs as much as or perhaps a little more potassium than Nitrogen. The PH needs some lime and is low for St. Augustine.
I really think that your roots are being starved. Without potassium (Third Number on the fertilizer bag) the roots will not develop and grass will not grow. Are you trying to apply fertilizer? If so, is your application granular or liquid? I apply all liquid but you need special equipment for that.

First, Will your grass go dormant? When and IF you have a month or more:Try this and it is only a band-aid and you may have a fungal problem as
Greendoctor said!

Go to Lesco and buy a bag of: http://www.lesco.com/?PageID=27&ItemNumber=009842
This is 50% Sulfur of Potash and is a very fine (Elite) particle. You are lucky that you have St. Augustine because centipede is picky on this. Apply 1lb of product (will be 1/2lb of Potassium) per 1000 sq ft of turf and water it in. I'm going very light to see any results. If so apply again in 1 month.
Second, buy a 50lb bag of hydrated lime and spread it with a garden spreader. It's hard to give you an amount/1000sq ft. Just don't overdo. 50lbs should cover about 10,000sq ft. I'd have to check on that. Ph for St. Augustine should be 6.5-7.0. You will have to re-test

There is no one rule of application of nutrients and minerals that fits all lawns. Most of us apply one what is needed on an individual basis. I maintain 12 months a year. St. Augustine is wonderful grass. Your strain of "Mercedes" is more developed and drought resistant than Palmetto. It is a little finer blade than the Palmetto. Overseeding of what? Bermuda? Zoysia? Don't really like either. Centipede is available in seed but it hates traffic and around that pool--it would die quicker than a shot in the heart. Stick with the St. Augustine. Hope this will help a bit--please keep us informed. It's getting a little late to do a whole lot, but try the potassium--it will not hurt the grass and will help when and if it goes dormant.

[RAlmaroad]

I checked on the lime (Calcium). I was way off. Here's the google suggestion:
Your soil test will tell you the pH of your soil and recommend how much lime to apply. A rule of thumb is that 100 lbs of lime spread over 1,000 square feet will raise your soil pH by 1 point.

You should never apply more than 100 pounds per 1,000 square feet at any one time

Apply that bag over about 2000 to raise the level just a bit. Although St. Augustine will tolerate lower acid levels--the lower PH locks up the fertilizer and prevents the plant from absorbing. Just another thought: St. Augustine like centipede does not like high traffic nor standing water and you could have had a clinch bug problem and the list goes on and on.

[treegal1]

you should re think the lime and use gypsum so that you don't change the Ca Mg ratio, the K is to low!!!!

as far as the N eh, we don't worry about that so much, but 3 lbs per year is all it should take so.............. 46-0-0 if you want, or just build the soil some and top dress with compost, Cobb county solid waste has some compost that is 11% N and is free to all Ga residents, YES FREE!!!! yes you will need 4X more, so instead of 40 lbs get your 160 lbs for free, and build the soil!!!! also try and get it aerated the soil looks all compacted

[23cmcnitt23]

This is all great information thanks. Just a couple of novice questions:

-What do you mean by build the soil?

-When is it too late in the fall to do these things to the lawn? i.e. add lime, compost, K, etc. We don't usually get our first freeze until mid to late November.

[treegal1]

I dont use fert at all !!!!! worm cast, compost, yes an organic LCO. compost now!!!!! it wont matter(pun) with compost what type of temps or weather. the time to aerate is now. if you need to get the Mercedes its N fix just to keep up its addiction the do so, maybe try some 20-0-20 in small doses, the ph is the big thing, but again I do the organic thing and don't see a need to mess with the ph, yes we fix it over time but thats mostly a side effect not the purpose. build the soil with the compost, you will see a real boost in the over all look and feel of the lawn.

http://www.lawnsite.com/showthread.php?t=236652

hey also here is the cobb post link

http://solidwaste.cobbcountyga.gov/compost.htm

[tamadrummer]

While listening to everything that Tree is telling you to do and doing it. It also looks to me like you have a ton of foot traffic on those spots. St. Augustine will not tolerate even moderate foot traffic without showing wear and the heavier it is the worse the turf will look!

Before I got into this business a few years ago, I actually would put own seeding soil on bare spots because it has compost an peat and synthetic forms of N-P-K and on my St. Augustine it worked wonders!! (very expensive but it works)

Good Luck and remember, do what TG and Green Doc advise!

(TG actually even called out the strain of St. Aug in the pic. They know grass!!)

[treegal1]

my life is St Aug, or as we say SAG, even farm 3 types my self and help 2 other farmers grow over 500 acres of the stuff.

TAM you are so correct that the foot traffic is like death on fire with the SAG, put up some garden fence, something small like the plastic fences that wally world sells, small white about 20 inches tall, just to make the kids and dog go around and not over the sod......

[23cmcnitt23]

Another question....it seems like i need to do quite a bit so I was wondering in what order I should do it all. It seems, from what you're saying, I need to aerate, add about 160 lbs of compost/1000 sq ft, add gypsum, and increase the potassium via Lesco.com product. Is this right?

I'm sure some of these things are redundant but being a novice i'm not sure what.

By the way is it easy to do your own aeration on a St Augustine lawn if I was to rent my own from Home Depot or Lowes?

[23cmcnitt23]

While listening to everything that Tree is telling you to do and doing it. It also looks to me like you have a ton of foot traffic on those spots. St. Augustine will not tolerate even moderate foot traffic without showing wear and the heavier it is the worse the turf will look!

Before I got into this business a few years ago, I actually would put own seeding soil on bare spots because it has compost an peat and synthetic forms of N-P-K and on my St. Augustine it worked wonders!! (very expensive but it works)

Good Luck and remember, do what TG and Green Doc advise!

(TG actually even called out the strain of St. Aug in the pic. They know grass!!)

Do you think the free compost from my local composting facility is sufficient or would it be better to invest in the seeding soil? Are you talking about the Scott's Turfbuilder Seeding Soil or is there cheaper brand?

[treegal1]

dont rent a machine!!!! that lawn is so small, go and buy a tined spade from HD poke it in every 4-7 inches and sort of lift it a little, work back wards so that you dont smash the stuff that you have lifted, then add the cobb post. if you really want to monkey around with the K then just save a bucket of wood ash and add 20 lbs to the compost( wet it a little in the compost to stop the dust) then add the compost, or go get the K from lesco, but you are hardly going to need a bag, maybe 1/6 of a bag and then it sits and goes bad!!!! lowes does have some small bags of fert if you want, maybe some miracle grow, that lawns is about 740 sq feet in the pics so you really dont need that much fert..........we have a 3 day old cobb post test IT WILL WORK GREAT!!!!

[tamadrummer]

If you are in for the long haul, go with Treegal on this and I believe that their company offers classes on this in West Palm/Jensen and you could use the money you are going to spend on seeding soil (Yes the scotts stuff) and drive down 95 to their farm and learn how to make your turf as strong as possible and be able to survive this drought you guys are in.

Sorry I cannot be a better help but I am in the cutting side not the fert renovation side.

[treegal1]

we also farm in north Ga and have helped several folks in the ATL, SAG is SAG. long haul, I just like the $avings, and the nice turf.................but if you are in FL on a Thursday night look me up.LOLOL this Friday we have lawn care guys from all over coming for a 3 day class on the organic ways, but NPK fert has a time and place, I guess some times???? if you want out of the bag stuff from HD just get 6 bags of jungle mix or scotts( no white pellets or Styrofoam ) and use that, or the cobb post, then you are recycling to..................we also do a web class on line,,,,,, free!!!

[treegal1]

Now for the verbose details:
This is a game of competition. You want to make things favorable for
the grass and unfavorable for the weeds so the grass will choke out the
weeds. Naturally.
Mow high:
There is a fight for sun. If the grass doesn't shade the weed, the weed
will shade the grass. Sun is food. Food is strength and life. Shade is
weakness, disease and death. Grass will shade the weeds only if it is
tall enough. The shade of tall, dense grass turf will prevent essential
light from reaching most weeds and, will aid in the destruction of new
baby weed seedlings (such as the notorious dandelion).
MYTH: "If I mow short, it will be longer until I have to mow again."
False! Wrong! (SLAP! SLAP! SLAP!) Your grass needs grass blades
to do photosynthesis (convert sunshine into sugar) to feed the roots.
When you whack the blades off, the grass has to RACE to make more
blades to make sugar. It then grows amazingly fast. This fast growth
uses up a lot of the grass's stored sugar, and weakens the plant. It is
now vulnerable to disease and pests! Tall grass is healthier and can
use the extra sugar to make rhizomes (more grass plants) thus
thickening the turf. Have you ever noticed that short grass in the
summer is always riddled with dead brown patches?
If you have a serious weed infestation, consider mowing twice as
frequently as you normally do. The sensitive growing point for grass
is near the soil. The sensitive growing point for most weeds is near
the top of the plant. So when you mow, it's as if you are giving your
grass a haircut and cutting the heads off of the weeds.
Finally, when mowing, be sure to leave the clippings on the lawn. It
adds organic matter and nutrients back into the soil. If you don't leave
the clippings, your soil will begin to look more like "dirt" than soil.
Soon it will be a form of cement that nothing will grow in and you

[treegal1]

Be sure to have your pH tested professionally. The kits that you can
buy in the store will often give you the wrong information. I once
spent $18 on a pH meter that told me that my lawn pH was 6.0 when
it was really 7.8. So I should have added gardeners sulfur, but instead
I added lime! Damn near killed my whole lawn!
Call your local extension office. My local extension office will test
pH for free. I've heard of some that charge ten bucks.
If you're going to buy a pH tester, be prepared to spend at least $75
for the tester and the calibration solutions. I recently bought the
Oakton pHTestr 2 ($59.50) plus 4.0 and 7.0 solutions ($12.60) from
Forestry Suppliers (800-647-5368) (s/h about $5). I think most folks
will wanna keep their $75 and just pack some soil samples to the local
extension office.
I wrote more on pH here
A little side note: a dusting of lime on the soil surface has been
shown, in most cases, to nearly double earthworm reproduction.
Soil depth:
My soil was only half an inch deep. Even weeds had a tough time
growing. Below my half inch of soil was never ending sand. It bore
no resemblance to soil. I added four inches of topsoil. This was done
with two dumptruck loads at $100 a pop. It covered all of the weeds
with enough soil that they could not work through - I could start from
scratch with my grass sod of choice!
18 inches or more soil would be optimal. I have a friend that has soil
this deep. While everyone else waters a dozen times or more over the
summer, she waters just once or twice. She uses no fertilizer or
pesticides. She has thick, dark green, weed-free grass which requires
frequent mowing. Her lawn is about as "no-brainer" as you could get.
This is a good time to talk about soil quality too. There is a big

[treegal1]

difference between dirt and soil. Soil is rich in microbial life and has a
lot of organic matter in it. Dirt comes in many forms and it's a
challenge to get anything to grow in it. If you are getting "topsoil"
delivered to your house, be prepared for it to bear more resemblance
to "dirt". You may want to have compost also delivered to your house
so that you can mix the two and have the beginnings for "soil". One
part compost to two parts dirt is a good mix.
Weeds:
The above lawn care advice will eliminate 95% to 99% of your weed
problem. But there are some weeds that are almost impossible to get
rid of, no matter what. Some of these are even resistant to the
chemical army. The two to be careful of in my area are weedelia and
black medic. These two have HUGE root systems that might go as
wide as thirty feet into the soil. They spread with rhizomes, just like
your grass. The above techniques will discourage them enough to go
to your neigbor's instead. They don't like tall grass or mowing. They
might try to pop up on fences or other lawn borders. Fifty
outcroppings could all be part of the same plant, so you really have to
get as much of them as you can. The key is to remove the green plant
that provides it with sugar. It needs sun and sugar to support that
massive root system. Repeated digging will weaken it to the point that
bugs and bacteria can take over.
I once moved to a house that was infested with both bindweed and
thistle. Imagine my yard as a big rectangle. I started pulling weeds on
the left and stopped about ten percent of the way across. A few days
later, I started at the left again and picked out anything that cropped
up in the last few days and then made a little progress into the rest of
the rectangle. Each brief weeding trip gets me another 5% of new
territory. The important thing is to always weed the area you already
weeded first. If I didn't do it this way, then the weed would recover in
the first section while I was attacking another section.
DANDELIONS are a sign of alkaline soil. Refer to the pH stuff

[treegal1]

above. The above methods will prevent dandelions from propogating.
Since dandelions live about five years, the mature dandelions will
struggle with the tall, thick turf and die off in two to three years. I
now think that a few dandelions poking up once in a while are kinda
nice and I leave them alone.
BLACK MEDIC is a sign of low nitrogen soil. Refer to fertilizing
above. The above methods will keep black medic in check. You will
occasionally see a little once in a while, but it is kinda pretty when it
isn't taking over your lawn. This stuff is sometimes called "yellow
clover". When it's taking over, it will choke out grass and make flat
mats about a foot in diameter. I found a little in my current lawn and it
was a single tiny strand with little yellow flowers.
CLOVER is a sign of low nitrogen soil. Refer to fertilizing above.
White and pink clover is often desired in a lawn. It contributes
nitrogen to the soil and doesn't compete strongly with the grass.
Yellow clover is actually "black medic" (see above).
KNAPWEED tries to poison plants around it with niacin. A little
water washes the niacin away and the plants around it can have a
fighting chance. Especially if mowing is involved. Mow a little more
frequently in late June and early July to wipe out knapweed.
Lawn Enhancements:
Now that you aren't dumping toxic gick on your lawn, you can
enhance it with some other growth.
CROCUSES: These flowers pop up in the spring while the grass is
still dormant. They're done blooming long before the first mow. These
are bulbs that are planted in the fall. Go ahead and plant a few dozen
right in the middle of your lawn.
ROMAN CHAMOMILE: They look like little daisies. When you
mow, it smells like green apples. You can find some seed at Burpee
Seeds .

[treegal1]

YARROW: This herb makes your grass extra spongy. It feels really
cool to walk on with bare feet.
Lawn Care Summary:
With these methods you will mow less, water less, never buy
pesticides and have the best looking lawn on your block.
Before my master gardener training I thought that herbicide use had a
time and place. The training covered not only the time and place, but
also covered the details of toxicity. 2-4D is considered one of the
safest herbicides. A quantity of 2-4D that would be about the same as
a roll of life savers rubbed on the skin of four kindergarten children
would kill two of them. This is not getting it in their mouth, but just
rubbed on their skin. My reading on this subject has exposed far too
many nightmares than I care to share here.
My closing opinion is that I can see no time and no place to ever use
herbicides. Especially not for anything as frivolous as lawn care. I
would rather have weeds.
Frequently Asked Questions:
What variety of grass should I plant?
EMPIRE SOD makes deeeeeep roots and is one of the most
drought tolerant species. Combining this species of grass with
the infrequent watering makes it one of the best species for
fighting weeds. It also means you can have a lovely lawn using
less water.
EMPIRE SOD is one of the most durable grasses. It stands up
well to the abuse of football games and pets. It will also stand
proud at three inches, four inches and five inches!
What's an extension office?

[treegal1]

Nearly every county in the United States has a county extension
office. The word "extension" means that the office is an
extension of the the state agricultural school. This office is
staffed by people who are paid to answer questions about plant
life in the county (including lawns). If people don't call, they
could lose their jobs! Call! Ask lots of questions! Visit! Take
weed samples to them for identification! Bugs too!
Sometimes the phones are manned by volunteers. Folks that
love gardening and horticulture so much, that they are itching to
talk to people like you about it. Many of these folks have
completed the master gardener training offered by the extension
office.
If nothing else, a visit to the office can be worthwhile because
they have loads of brochures about issues in your area.
To find them, open your phone book to "the blue pages"
(government listings) under "County Government" and look for
"Extension Office", "Extension Agent" or "County Extension".
I think I have grubs. What do I do?
Grubs are the larvae of certain species of beetles. Grubs think
grass roots are yummy. If you dig up dead patches of grass you
just might see a bunch of grubs munching away.
This is where birds are your friends. Birds think grubs are
yummy.
I have never had to personally deal with grubs. And I have yet
to encounter an organic grower that has had to deal with them.
But I have had many people write to me and ask how to deal
with grubs organically. Nearly all of them have mentioned "Last
year I sprayed toxic goo to get rid of the grubs and now they're
back". While I did not see what happened, my guess is that birds
and other natural grub control ate the dead grubs and died. No

[treegal1]

more natural grub control.
So the trick is to kill the grubs, but don't harm anything that eats
grubs. The answer is to bring in more grub predators.
Having done a little reading on this topic, "Milky Spore"
(Bacillus popilliae) and/or predatory nematodes appear to be the
organic control. "Milky Spore" is a naturally occurring bacteria
that makes the grubs puke their guts out, but it doesn't seem to
bother anything else. So if a bird eats a dead grub, the bird will
be fat and happy. Predatory nematodes (also called "beneficial
nematodes") are like micro worms that crawl through the soil
and eat a variety of different organisms, including grubs.
My soil is more like dirt. How do I improve it?
If you have an inch of "dirt" and everything under that is big
rocks or rock-hard clay, improving your "dirt" isn't going to
make much difference. You are probably going to need to
import some top soil.
If you have the bucks, you can have a foot and a half of topsoil
dropped on your existing lawn and then plant new grass seed
and start over. Soil on top of dirt ain't bad.
If you have patience and think that your dirt can be renovated
into soil, you can:
fertilize and mow high. The fertilizer helps to make more
grass. If you have any worms in your dirt/soil, they will
take blades of cut grass down lower, munch on it, and
leave organic matter down low. The fertilizer helps to
make more grass.
Add an inch of compost every spring and fall. It ain't
cheap and it makes your lawn look like crap for a week
or so, but again, the worms will work it in.

[treegal1]

I have this weird idea that I have tried several times
Take a post hole digger and dig a hole about two feet
deep. Re-fill the hole with 50% compost and 50% of
what you took out of the hole. Stir a little grass seed
into the top quarter inch of soil.
I think that by doing this, you will create a wonderful
home for worms and a great place for deeeeeep grass
roots. Over time, the roots and the worms will
convert the neighboring dirt into soil.
If anybody tries this, I hope you'll write me and tell
me how it turned out.
How do I get rid of mushrooms?
People that are trying to grow mushrooms will provide the
mushrooms with rotting sawdust or rotting logs. Generous
moisture and a lack of direct sunlight can help too.
In the horticultural world "rot" almost always mean
"composting". To properly compost, you need a certain mixture
of carbon heavy organic matter (wood, dried leaves, straw, etc.)
and nitrogen heavy organic matter (manure, grass clippings,
table scraps, weeds, etc.). If you get just the right mix, you get
hot composting happening. Too much nitrogen and it gets a
little stinky. Too much carbon and the composting takes a very
long time.
To get rid of mushrooms, you just need to get your lawn to
outcompete them. Grass loves a nitrogen rich soil. Mushrooms
love a carbon rich soil. Lawn fertilizer has heaps of nitrogen and
hardly and carbon. Time to fertilize! Twenty bucks and ten
minutes of time will do wonders for your lawn.
Here's something that can be a kick: take a close look at your

[23cmcnitt23]

This is my last question, for now :), and it's very basic....how do you apply the compost to the lawn to make sure I'm applying it evenly/equally?

You have been a tremendous help and I really appreciate the information. I can't believe I have been paying $40 every few months from my so called "expert" lawn care guys and they never have suggested any of this. The guy told me that I should just buy some new sod next year and patch the dead spots.

[treegal1]

mushrooms. If there are a bunch of them, are they growing in a
circle? If so, this is called "fairy ring". The ring will grow larger
and larger as the spores from the current mushrooms land just
outside of the ring.
How do I deal with burn spots in my lawn from my dog?
Dog poop and dog pee are both high in nitrogen. But if you give
your lawn too much nitrogen, you'll kill it. Not the whole lawn.
Just the spot with too much nitrogen. Usually there will be a
load of dog poop and the grass under it will be dead. And the
grass immediately around it will be greener, taller, thicker and
healthier than all the rest of the lawn. So the stuff immediately
under the crap is "too much" and the stuff surrounding the crap
is "optimal". Same thing for pee only there won't be a pile of
poop in the middle.
Solution 1
This solution is reserved for the Zen Masters of the school
of the cheap and lazy.
Do nothing.
For dog pee, the grass is tall enough that it hides the dead
spot. Rain and irrigation will eventually rinse enough
nitrogen out that they grass will grow back into that spot.
I leave the poop to the worms and the microbials in the
soil. Birds will also work it over a bit (looking for the
worms and other bugs attracted by it). How quickly the
poop disappears on its own shows how healthy your lawn
is. Just be careful not to step on the fresh stuff.
An added benefit is that you can remain on great terms
with your neighbors.
If your spousal unit says "go clean up that dog crap in the

[treegal1]

yard!" You can now say "I looked it up on the internet and
it said the best solution was to leave it!"
Solution 2
Sprinkle a little sawdust on the spot and give the spot a
little attention from your hose. The sawdust will hide the
poop and it will counter the excess nitrogen. Combining
with the nitrogen, it will, in time, turn into compost -
enriching the soil. The sawdust will also reduce any odor
by about 95%. The water will wet the sawdust and dilute
the nitrogen source a bit, thus helping the beginning of the
composting process.
Solution 3
Remove the poop, dig an inch into the soil and mix
sawdust into the soil. This is the same as solution 2, but
the sawdust will be more effective this way.
Anal Retentive Solution
Remove the poop and an inch of affected soil. Replace
with compost and some sod
A lot of people do this. I think it's pretty dumb.
I think that removing the dog poop and watering the area
is more effective than this. The water will dilute the excess
nitrogen in the soil. The surrounding grass will spread into
the area using grass rhizomes. There is no need for seed.
If you put seed here, you will be saddling yourself with the
responsibility of watering it every day for two weeks.
Reading the rest of this essay will tell you that that's a
great way to get weeds. Plus, it's work!
Now let's look at the compost: compost is wonderful,
magical stuff. But in this case, you've just added nitrogen

[treegal1]

to an excess nitrogen problem. Further, seeds don't
germinate well in a high nitrogen medium like compost.
The germinate better in something like pH adjusted peat
moss. Or plain topsoil. The plants like nitrogen after
they've gotten past the seedling stage.
Some people have written to me asking about what to do
about their dogs pee "burning" their lawn. They explain that
female dogs have ultra acidic pee and it kills whatever it
touches. I think the treatement is still going to be the same.
Leave it and let the tall grass hide it. If it still bothers you, use
a little sawdust and/or water.
My grass is all thin and dead-ish, what is your advice on
overseeding and new sod ?
Don't.
I mean it. Put overseeding out of your mind. Your "dirt" has
such terrible issues that adult grass is struggling to survive and
now you want to put babies there?
I am, right now, trying really hard to think of one case where
overseeding will do any good .... nope - can't think of a single
case. Seeding bare patches that are are at least a foot or two
wide makes sense - but that's not "overseeding" (tossing seed
onto an existing patch of grass).
Improve your soil and your existing grass will thrive. Then there
is no need for re sodding
GOOD LUCK , GOD BLESS YOU AND HAVE FUN!

[treegal1]

one free class.LOLOL

use a shopvel and a rake or broom to do the compost!!!!

[RAlmaroad]

This is all great information thanks. Just a couple of novice questions:

-What do you mean by build the soil?

-When is it too late in the fall to do these things to the lawn? i.e. add lime, compost, K, etc. We don't usually get our first freeze until mid to late November.


Sort out your options!!! Hopefully, Lesco will help you on the amount of admendments to correct your PH. You should start by correcting the PH with gypsum--it will take some time for it to counter the acid. You can add the overdressing anytime. Actually, I do that in December and January when the grass is dormant. Next you will need to build up the Potassium (K) and re-soil test in February after these thing get incorporated into the soil.

Make a record of what you are doing.
Roy

[treegal1]

Sort out your options!!! Hopefully, Lesco will help you on the amount of admendments to correct your PH. You should start by correcting the PH with gypsum--it will take some time for it to counter the acid. You can add the overdressing anytime. Actually, I do that in December and January when the grass is dormant. Next you will need to build up the Potassium (K) and re-soil test in February after these thing get incorporated into the soil.

Make a record of what you are doing.
Roypst, Roy its SAG it does not get any over seed, it grows with runners. top dress is with compost and can be done almost any time.

[RAlmaroad]

pst, Roy its SAG it does not get any over seed, it grows with runners. top dress is with compost and can be done almost any time.

Treegal1:
Where in my post did you see me mention "over seed"? And didn't you see my reference to compost topdressing almost any time. I thought I was educated enough to use the English language correctly. Maybe it's too early or the sun may be in your eyes.

[treegal1]

Treegal1:
Where in my post did you see me mention "over seed"? And didn't you see my reference to compost topdressing almost any time. I thought I was educated enough to use the English language correctly. Maybe it's too early or the sun may be in your eyes.sorry lack of java in the am and 2 monitors....opps

[23cmcnitt23]

Ok, so several months later and things are unchanged. Except I fired my lawn care company. They seemed to be making things worse. The SAG is now mostly dormant in Atlanta, GA but I do see a a little green starting to show. Just wondering what I should apply at this time of the year with the goal of improving my lawn this spring/summer. Please see the 1st page of this post to see how bad it looked last year.

As a reminder, here were my Soil Test results:
P=232 lbs/acre
K=470 lbs/acre
Ca=3054 lbs/acre
Mg=281 lbs/acre
Zn=33 lbs/acre
pH=5.9

Thanks in advance

[paul wheaton]

Now for the verbose details:
This is a game of competition. You want to make things favorable for
the grass and unfavorable for the weeds so the grass will choke out the
weeds. Naturally.
Mow high:
There is a fight for sun. If the grass doesn't shade the weed, the weed
will shade the grass. Sun is food. Food is strength and life. Shade is
weakness, disease and death. Grass will shade the weeds only if it is
tall enough. The shade of tall, dense grass turf will prevent essential
light from reaching most weeds and, will aid in the destruction of new
baby weed seedlings (such as the notorious dandelion).
MYTH: "If I mow short, it will be longer until I have to mow again."
False! Wrong! (SLAP! SLAP! SLAP!) Your grass needs grass blades
to do photosynthesis (convert sunshine into sugar) to feed the roots.
When you whack the blades off, the grass has to RACE to make more
blades to make sugar. It then grows amazingly fast. This fast growth
uses up a lot of the grass's stored sugar, and weakens the plant. It is
now vulnerable to disease and pests! Tall grass is healthier and can
use the extra sugar to make rhizomes (more grass plants) thus
thickening the turf. Have you ever noticed that short grass in the
summer is always riddled with dead brown patches?
If you have a serious weed infestation, consider mowing twice as
frequently as you normally do. The sensitive growing point for grass
is near the soil. The sensitive growing point for most weeds is near
the top of the plant. So when you mow, it's as if you are giving your
grass a haircut and cutting the heads off of the weeds.
Finally, when mowing, be sure to leave the clippings on the lawn. It
adds organic matter and nutrients back into the soil. If you don't leave
the clippings, your soil will begin to look more like "dirt" than soil.
Soon it will be a form of cement that nothing will grow in and you

So true!

I couldn't have said it better myself!

Wait!

I did say it myself!

See www.richsoil.com/lawn-care.jsp

I said it .... exactly!

Wow, I've heard of great minds think alike, but this is downright goofy!

(cough)(cough)

Well ..... this is awkward ...

So .... howzabout we mend this and do the right thing?

A lovely quote about how you like my article soooooooooo much and a big, fat, juicy link to the article. And then delete the innards of my article from here.

In the future, please remember that quoting a sentence or two of an article is fine, but copying the whole article requires permission and some form of payment.

Of course, you can make links to my other articles too. That would be nice.

[Greg78]

........................

[bigslick7878]

Too funny.

Paul,everything you said in that quoted part especially I try to DRILL into my customers head.They all want to mow it "short and tight" and some of them are pretty hard headed.

I have saved that page,emailed it to all of them WITH a link and given credit where credit is due.

Keep up the good work.

[paul wheaton]

It is just freaky how people want it so short. But it isn't just their fault - most mowers are not designed to mow high enough.

Crazy.

[HLM86]

Does it not get too cold in Atlanta for St. Augustine?

[23cmcnitt23]

From my experience it does not grow in Atlanta. I have gotten rid of the grass and started over with tall Fescue. It is doing a lot better than the St Augustine ever did.

[paul wheaton]

Well, it seems that the person that copied my copyrighted material isn't gonna take it out.

Moderator? Could you please delete those posts that are a copy of my article?

[WannaBeOrganic]

Well, it seems that the person that copied my copyrighted material isn't gonna take it out.

Moderator? Could you please delete those posts that are a copy of my article?

Paul,

Your site is one of the first I read when I was looking for information on organic lawn care (http://www.richsoil.com/lawn-care.jsp). Very good stuff. No wonder it's so frequently err... quoted (http://www.sacomaine.org/departments/publicworks/tt060807.shtml)

[paul wheaton]

Another one!

Thanks for the tip!

Chasing down folks that are copying my stuff is really frustrating. And usually when I ask, they get really mad at me. They think my stuff is great when they claim it as something they wrote, but as soon as I ask them to give me credit then I'm the bad guy.

[paul wheaton]

And ... well ... if there is no moderation here, then I guess that making links willy nilly is fine ...

First, I manage some permaculture forums (http://www.permies.com/permaculture-forums). One of the biggest forums is about lawn care. The approach is a bit different. Doing as little as possible. Water once or twice a year. Mow four to six times per year. Avoid fertilizing. And still have the best looking lawn on the block.

Heat your home with five to ten times less wood. This is through the power of a rocket mass heater (http://www.richsoil.com/rocket-stove-mass-heater.jsp). Materials can be as cheap as $20, and it can be built in a weekend.

A lot of people give up on using cast iron cookware too easily. Imagine never buying a skillet again - you just need to know a couple of simple things about using cast iron (http://www.richsoil.com/cast-iron.jsp).

Fleas are nothing more than a nuisance. But the folks that make money on flea control stuff can scare you into parting with hundreds of dollars and poisoning you! A few bits of knowledge about flea control (http://www.richsoil.com/flea-control.jsp) will get the job done with zero poison.

Ever heard of the Java (http://www.javaranch.com) programming language. I have a big site about that too. And Java Forums (http://www.coderanch.com/forums).

I have lots more stuff, but that's a good start.

[WannaBeOrganic]

Wow. I didn't realize coderanch was your site too. I visit that frequently as well. One of the first things I noticed about your richsoil site was that it was in JSP.

[paul wheaton]

Yeah, I get around! :)

And every coupla years I take a day or two to track down the plagiarists.