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ZX12R
08-05-2008, 11:22 PM
In another thread,I said I would post pics my progress. To refresh your memory,I do not install irrigation systems for hire,I am a landscape contractor,and this is for my house. Right now,I have 5 zones which are for the beds.They are operated by manual ball valves and I am changing it over to electric. I currently do not have irrigation for the lawn,but,I will be doing that also as time permits. Bear with me as I am doing this in my spare time after work.

Below are pics of the manifold. When its all wired up in the valve boxes,I will post more pics.Once again,thank you to all who have shared their imput and knowledge in helping me do this.It is very much appreciated. If you see anything that you would to make it better or more effecient,I am all ears! Be nice.....:rolleyes:

PS: I have a question or two about these valves,but,I will ask when I am ready to turn the system on.

Dirty Water
08-06-2008, 12:05 AM
I think you have a leak.

ZX12R
08-06-2008, 12:08 AM
LOL,its probably going to leak where its triple clamped. I won't let Captain hear the end of it if it does. :)

DanaMac
08-06-2008, 12:27 AM
You don't have continuous drainage to the end or a drain on the end. this will cause water to sit in a couple of fittings and cause freeze damage. Good luck! :)

ZX12R
08-06-2008, 12:44 AM
Could you elaborate on that please? I was going to leave the end capped in case I wanted to add a zone later. I figured I would be safe by blowing the system out in october or so? What should I have in place of that end cap?

DanaMac
08-06-2008, 01:01 AM
Could you elaborate on that please? I was going to leave the end capped in case I wanted to add a zone later. I figured I would be safe by blowing the system out in october or so? What should I have in place of that end cap?

Boiler drain. Spigot. Anything to allow water out.

ZX12R
08-06-2008, 01:22 AM
Oh ok,I will attach a threaded ball valve in place of that cap. Thanks DanaMac!

Kiril
08-06-2008, 01:23 AM
PS: I have a question or two about these valves,but,I will ask when I am ready to turn the system on.

Best valve on the market for the money IMHO. Rock solid performers.

DanaMac
08-06-2008, 09:38 AM
Oh ok,I will attach a threaded ball valve in place of that cap. Thanks DanaMac!

You could still have a problem though. Mainline tees, water flows to the right in the pic, then goes VERTICAL in the ell to the manifold tees. That water before the tees will not defy gravity and push uphill without assistance. You should probably have it blown out in the fall just in case.

Tom Tom
08-06-2008, 10:02 AM
Best valve on the market for the money IMHO. Rock solid performers.

Not in cold climates

Wet_Boots
08-06-2008, 10:05 AM
Are you seeing anything beyond solenoid issues with the Irritrols?

DanaMac
08-06-2008, 10:09 AM
Looks triple clamped at the tee, but not at the male adapter leading into the first ell - only double. But I've seen a lot of double clamped mainlines and no problem.

I kind of like the idea of the swivel fitting after the valve. Much like a union for easy service later on. But it should be easy to remove valve anyway due to the swivel manifold tees. Looks like a little added cost, but not much. And makes guys like me happy when valve needs replacing. But it also gives another possible point to leak.

DanaMac
08-06-2008, 10:11 AM
Are you seeing anything beyond solenoid issues with the Irritrols?

I see diaphragm issues. And cracked bodies once in a while. More often than RB DVs.

Wet_Boots
08-06-2008, 10:13 AM
Weird. I guess the Richdel gods must be watching over me. Hardie screwed up a few things, solenoids included, but my freeze failures were on the white-wire Hardie versions.

Tom Tom
08-06-2008, 10:13 AM
Are you seeing anything beyond solenoid issues with the Irritrols?

No.

But, I've replaced more irritrol solenoids than all others combined.

Supposedly, a controller "watering" cycle after fall shutdown gets the water out of the plunger.

Wet_Boots
08-06-2008, 10:18 AM
I would think the compressed-air winterizing would effectively remove the water from the solenoid, white retainer ring or no. Hardie's problem was that water was getting into a space above the magnetic core, and that water would never drain.

DanaMac
08-06-2008, 10:20 AM
I would think the compressed-air winterizing would effectively remove the water from the solenoid, white retainer ring or no.

I don't know how easy it would really blow out that water within the solenoid. I wonder if the heat from the solenoid with no water going through it, might actually just dry it out

Tom Tom
08-06-2008, 10:24 AM
I don't know how easy it would really blow out that water within the solenoid. I wonder if the heat from the solenoid with no water going through it, might actually just dry it out

Guess we gotta pack some R-19 insulation in valve boxes now.

How did Tom like the senior open?

Wet_Boots
08-06-2008, 10:27 AM
My Hardie failures were all on antisyphon valves, so I'm guessing heat might have helped the water get to where it shouldn't have been. Replacing the Hardie solenoids with Toro's black-wire Irritrol solenoids seemed to cure (knock wood :hammerhead:) the problem. I still think there will eventually be some rusting on them, though.

DanaMac
08-06-2008, 10:38 AM
Guess we gotta pack some R-19 insulation in valve boxes now.

How did Tom like the senior open?

He had a good time. Thanks for asking him to go.

BTW, how dry was the course?

Waterit
08-06-2008, 11:55 AM
My Hardie failures were all on antisyphon valves, so I'm guessing heat might have helped the water get to where it shouldn't have been. Replacing the Hardie solenoids with Toro's black-wire Irritrol solenoids seemed to cure (knock wood :hammerhead:) the problem. I still think there will eventually be some rusting on them, though.

Would removing the sloenoids during the blow-out process solve this? We don't winterize, so I have no experience with the whole process.

Wet_Boots
08-06-2008, 12:40 PM
Hardie's solenoid problem needed a redesign. What's with Toro's version, I don't know, since I don't have issues with it. I also don't have cold Colorado weather to deal with, so my installs aren't subject to sub-freezing temps with any water in the valves.

CAPT Stream Rotar
08-06-2008, 06:54 PM
LOL,its probably going to leak where its triple clamped. I won't let Captain hear the end of it if it does. :)

looks good..are those orbit valves, and dura manifold T's?


brotha....where is the pvc and DV's?

I hope you didn't use tape on the dura stuff and didn't wrench it tight.

Mike Leary
08-06-2008, 07:38 PM
A real manifold with Lasco tees.

CAPT Stream Rotar
08-06-2008, 07:57 PM
I like MR. Leary prefer the Lasco manifold T's....But for me I'll take female T's and rainbird Dv100's.....

we change out WM weekly here.

Mike Leary
08-06-2008, 08:03 PM
we change out WM weekly here.

Notice how optimistic I am that W*M got the solenoid problem solved;
all wire tired. That manifold & valves are taking 90 psi. Downstream to the right.

Tom Tom
08-06-2008, 08:04 PM
A real manifold with Lasco tees.

Those things split/crack in Colorado all the time, either from freezing or overtightening.

Wet_Boots
08-06-2008, 08:12 PM
Those things split/crack in Colorado all the time, either from freezing or overtightening.The male threads on the manifold fittings split?

Mike Leary
08-06-2008, 08:13 PM
Those things split/crack in Colorado all the time, either from freezing or overtightening.

Too much teflon tape, as you can see in the pic, three threads showing is
tight with pipe dope. I don't see how how the cracks happened, unless
someone screwed up with what you said.

CAPT Stream Rotar
08-06-2008, 08:27 PM
ml-how many wraps with what size do you use with those Male T's?

Dirty Water
08-06-2008, 08:39 PM
Here is a real manifold:

http://www.lawnsite.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=60931&d=1153880122

Automation is for suckers!

Wet_Boots
08-06-2008, 08:42 PM
Here is a real manifold:

http://www.lawnsite.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=60931&d=1153880122

Automation is for suckers!

Someday he'll be able to afford three identical valves :p

Mike Leary
08-06-2008, 08:47 PM
ml-how many wraps with what size do you use with those Male T's?

No tape, goop made for pvc is best, period. :hammerhead::hammerhead::hammerhead:

Mike Leary
08-06-2008, 08:51 PM
Here is a real manifold

Nice shoe, are those Champion manuals or (cough) Lawn Life?

CAPT Stream Rotar
08-06-2008, 09:20 PM
No tape, goop made for pvc is best, period. :hammerhead::hammerhead::hammerhead:

you're mad , man..

we use both....what ever works...

Mike Leary
08-06-2008, 09:46 PM
you're mad , man..
we use both....what ever works...

Tape will expand the the threads and cause splitting, d.s. :hammerhead:
Every manifold pic I've posted is with dope, no leaks, ever.

Waterit
08-06-2008, 09:56 PM
As a man once said:

Tape is a thread lubricant, paste is a sealer.

CAPT Stream Rotar
08-06-2008, 09:59 PM
Tape will expand the the threads and cause splitting, d.s. :hammerhead:
Every manifold pic I've posted is with dope, no leaks, ever.

lol....

around here we would all consider you a lazy hack...

and im sure where you are your king ding a ling..

go figure. stay on that island.

Mike Leary
08-06-2008, 10:06 PM
lol...around here we would all consider you a lazy hack...and im sure where you are your king ding a ling..
go figure. stay on that island.

Will do, thanks for the comment, welcome to Lawnsite, what was your name?

ZX12R
08-06-2008, 10:29 PM
""You could still have a problem though. Mainline tees, water flows to the right in the pic, then goes VERTICAL in the ell to the manifold tees. That water before the tees will not defy gravity and push uphill without assistance. You should probably have it blown out in the fall just in case."


I will definitley blow the system out in October.

ZX12R
08-06-2008, 10:39 PM
"looks good..are those orbit valves, and dura manifold T's?


brotha....where is the pvc and DV's?

I hope you didn't use tape on the dura stuff and didn't wrench it tight."


No,they are Irritrol 2500TF valves.... and yes,dura T's. You know I was going to make the manifold out of pvc with Lasco T's. I actually had them on the counter and then I went to the back and saw the Dura products. I figured it would be nice should I need to replace a valve in the future. We shall see. If I pressurize the system and it leaks,I am ripping it out and doing pvc..lol..Screw it


I did have tape on the dura threads,but,after reading more here,I took it off.Fittings are hand tight and then I went just a little bit tighter with pliers.

ZX12R
08-06-2008, 10:40 PM
Mr. Mike Leary,your manifold looks nice and neat. What's the mesh for?

Waterit
08-06-2008, 10:52 PM
Mr. Mike Leary,your manifold looks nice and neat. What's the mesh for?

Keeps solenoid gremlins out.

Or because Leary had some lying around and decided to get rid of it by burying it where no one could find it, even with a 521.

Mike Leary
08-06-2008, 10:52 PM
Mr. Mike Leary,your manifold looks nice and neat. What's the mesh for?

We have moles that love our trenches and valve boxes. They will get in
eventually, but I love the the little dears; they have never chewed our wire.

Dirty Water
08-07-2008, 12:24 AM
Someday he'll be able to afford three identical valves :p

Added two zones to a manual system. Those Champion valves last forever, why not reuse the first one :)

Kiril
08-07-2008, 01:30 AM
I have had both tape only and goop only fittings leak, but I have never had a tape + goop fitting leak. Constant pressure fittings always get tape + goop.

AI Inc
08-07-2008, 07:17 AM
Will do, thanks for the comment, welcome to Lawnsite, what was your name?

Dont drink the water , the farmed fish are shatting in it!

kcas72
09-08-2008, 11:35 AM
I know this is an old thread, but I have a question going ALL the way back to the first post. It looks like he's using all PVC coming from the main line and in between each valve. He's in NJ, and my understanding is that in a cold zone you need to use copper from the main to the valves. No PVC anywhere. What am I missing?

Wet_Boots
09-08-2008, 11:53 AM
Your understanding is incorrect. You could have all PVC from valve back to water meter in the basement and no worries, if the valves are manifolded near the home foundation. Farther out in the field, and I'd be less certain. The actual construction of the OP's manifold has poly and O-ringed fittings, so there is some play in the construction.

DanaMac
09-08-2008, 11:54 AM
I know this is an old thread, but I have a question going ALL the way back to the first post. It looks like he's using all PVC coming from the main line and in between each valve. He's in NJ, and my understanding is that in a cold zone you need to use copper from the main to the valves. No PVC anywhere. What am I missing?

hey you want to shell out the extra costs for copper, and the extra time to do it, go right ahead. Nothing wrong with PVC. It needs to be drained and blown out, just like copper. Copper will crack due to freezing as well.

kcas72
09-08-2008, 12:04 PM
Thanks for the responses guys. You mention that PVC can be used if it's close to the foundation? I thought the reason it couldn't be used was because of the freezing? What's the difference how close to the foundation? In other words, if it can be used to install the valves without worries of it cracking when it freezes, why can't it also be used as your lateral lines throughout your system?

The reason I'm confused, is that in every article I've read about inground sprinklers, they always said in non-freezing zones, PVC can be used throughout. But in freezing zones, need to use copper from the main to your manifold, and poly as your lateral lines.

Wet_Boots
09-08-2008, 12:19 PM
Close to a basement foundation, the soil rarely freezes, because a house will radiate heat. I have no issue with manifolds away from foundations, but they have no water in them, come wintertime.

kcas72
09-08-2008, 12:23 PM
So if I understand correctly, the only chance of a pipe freezing is if water is in them? Therefor, if I blow my systmen out evey fall then there would be no difference if it's PVC or copper?

Mike Leary
09-08-2008, 12:32 PM
So if I understand correctly, the only chance of a pipe freezing is if water is in them? Therefor, if I blow my systmen out evey fall then there would be no difference if it's PVC or copper?

yup........true.

Wet_Boots
09-08-2008, 12:36 PM
I think there might be issues with all-PVC systems that are installed in soils that can shift during freezing weather. Cold PVC can shatter when enough force is applied to it.

kcas72
09-08-2008, 12:41 PM
Your understanding is incorrect. You could have all PVC from valve back to water meter in the basement and no worries, if the valves are manifolded near the home foundation. Farther out in the field, and I'd be less certain. The actual construction of the OP's manifold has poly and O-ringed fittings, so there is some play in the construction.


Forgot to ask this. When I do my system, I will have a manifold right up against the foundation, right by the main. However, I will be coming off the manifold and running a pipe out into my backyard for a second group of manifolds. This run will be about 25' and wont be by the foundation. Is it still ok to use PVC and not copper?

Thanks. :)

Wet_Boots
09-08-2008, 12:54 PM
Don't worry about it so much. There is one instance where I want copper leading to a manifold, and that's when a copper pipe exits a foundation wall below grade (assuming a DCVA indoors) - that's because some newer construction will see the foundation backfill settle over time, creating force sufficient to shear a PVC pipe. Copper survives shear forces better than PVC.

kcas72
09-08-2008, 12:58 PM
Thanks again. I have one more question that keeps bugging me. I will set my system up so that I can blow it out with a compressor. But I keep hearing alot about drain valves. Are those only necessary if you aren't blowing the system out, and where exactly are these drain valves installed if necessary?

Wet_Boots
09-08-2008, 01:05 PM
Have a drain valve that can stay wide open all winter long. Locate it near the system shutoff.

AI Inc
09-08-2008, 01:30 PM
Forgot to ask this. When I do my system, I will have a manifold right up against the foundation, right by the main. However, I will be coming off the manifold and running a pipe out into my backyard for a second group of manifolds. This run will be about 25' and wont be by the foundation. Is it still ok to use PVC and not copper?

Thanks. :)

Use poly for that rear yard line. Talk to guys in here, ignore at least 50% of what you read in books.

kcas72
09-08-2008, 02:10 PM
Have a drain valve that can stay wide open all winter long. Locate it near the system shutoff.

Where would this drain valve go? Somewhere in the manifold box, or in my basement near my sprinkler shut off valve?

Wet_Boots
09-08-2008, 02:18 PM
Theoretical best would be in the basement, since a leak through the main shutoff would be known before trouble can occur outside.

kcas72
09-08-2008, 02:31 PM
Funny thing about not believing everything you read. I had Toro give me one of those free design plans based on my property, and there are a couple things that don't make sense to me. I actually have an inground sprinkler right now, but for many reasons I'm going to need to re-do this. It was installed about 20 years ago when the previous owners lived there. My main line is 3/4". In my basement, it splits and runs out the foundation wall to the valve manifolds. This pipe is also 3/4". And from there, all the lateral poly lines are 3/4" as well. They told me I need to have a 1" pipe off of my main line running to the valves. And then 1" poly running to the first head of each zone. And from there, I can go down to 3/4" poly. I don't understand, what's the point of starting with 1"? Especially from the main line to the valves?

Mike Leary
09-08-2008, 02:50 PM
Don't worry about it; the reason we like 1" is we can get less friction loss and more
gallons per minute. As long as you stay under 7gpm (depending on your pressure),
you'll be just fine.

kcas72
09-08-2008, 03:18 PM
Don't worry about it; the reason we like 1" is we can get less friction loss and more
gallons per minute. As long as you stay under 7gpm (depending on your pressure),
you'll be just fine.


That's one thing I don't understand. If my first head is say 15' from my manifold, what's the benefit of running the 1" ONLY to the first head? Every head after that is 3/4".

So, are you saying I really don't need the 1"?

Mike Leary
09-08-2008, 03:49 PM
So, are you saying I really don't need the 1"?

Don't make a big deal of it unless you've got nothing better to do.:)

kcas72
09-08-2008, 07:12 PM
Another thing, I always read that you can't use typical small compressors to blow out your system. I have one of those small pancake style compressors. Everything I've read said, absolutely don't use it, you will damage the system. however, I know alot of homeowners in my area that do use these small compressors. Are they taking a big chance, or is it all hype?

Wet_Boots
09-08-2008, 07:40 PM
By all means use a pancake compressor. Note your starting time. Zones are not clear until you open the valve with a full charge of air, and zero water leaves the heads, even if you have to repeat the process a hundred times.

Mike Leary
09-08-2008, 07:55 PM
[QUOTE=Wet_Boots;2505170]By all means use a pancake compressor. Note your starting time. Zones are not clear until you open the valve with a full charge of air, and zero water leaves the heads, even if you have to repeat the process a hundred times.[/QUOTE

It's volume moved, not pressure..those dweeb pancakes will take forever,perhaps longer...and not winterize the system.

Wet_Boots
09-08-2008, 08:02 PM
That's why I want him to note the time when he starts. Should finish up in time to watch the Superbowl.

Mike Leary
09-08-2008, 08:03 PM
What year?

kcas72
09-08-2008, 09:37 PM
I did it myself last year, b/c I knew I was going to be re-doing it anyway so I took a chance. Although I was outside for about 45 minutes to do 3 zones, it did seem to be cleared out when I was done. My big concern, is that it could damage the system. As long as it gets the water out, is there anything else to be concerned about?

kcas72
09-09-2008, 02:27 PM
I did it myself last year, b/c I knew I was going to be re-doing it anyway so I took a chance. Although I was outside for about 45 minutes to do 3 zones, it did seem to be cleared out when I was done. My big concern, is that it could damage the system. As long as it gets the water out, is there anything else to be concerned about?


Just thought I would bump this up.:)

Mike Leary
09-09-2008, 02:39 PM
I did it myself last year, b/c I knew I was going to be re-doing it anyway so I took a chance. Although I was outside for about 45 minutes to do 3 zones, it did seem to be cleared out when I was done. My big concern, is that it could damage the system. As long as it gets the water out, is there anything else to be concerned about?

We blow three zones at once in two or three minutes with our 125 tow-behind.
Damage can be done with too much pressure....melted fittings, heads
launched to the moon, etc. Sounds like you're using a small compressor if
it's taking that long..they don't have the volume to do a proper job. Don't
blow it dry..a slight misting is sufficient. "Burp" the zones once more &
you're done.

Wet_Boots
09-09-2008, 02:52 PM
Go do some reading on this site. The posts are already there. The decisions are yours.

Mike Leary
09-09-2008, 03:11 PM
Ditto............:wall

kcas72
09-09-2008, 03:33 PM
Sorry.:confused:

Wet_Boots
09-09-2008, 03:37 PM
(the idea is to not piss off people by being so 'needy' as to be unable to use a website's search function - for those folks, they get invited to the Egress)

kcas72
09-09-2008, 03:44 PM
Again, sorry. But just so you know, I've been a member of many forums over the years and I understand how it works. I have been doing alot of searching on the threads and just haven't been able to find these answers. When I say that, keep in mind that I'm not saying answers aren't there, just that I haven't found them. Probably because I don't completely understand 80CFM vs. 165 PSI vs High volume, etc,etc..

Wet_Boots
09-09-2008, 03:48 PM
Let's put it this way - there is no professional who will admit to using a pancake compressor for winterizing, so you will learn nothing about how they would use one for the job.

kcas72
09-09-2008, 03:51 PM
That answer is alot different and much more helpful than saying do a search, the posts are there.

Mike Leary
09-09-2008, 03:57 PM
Let's put it this way - there is no professional who will admit to using a pancake compressor for winterizing, so you will learn nothing about how they would use one for the job.

Yup, I had our 125 cfm (cubic feet a minute) compressor modified to be able
to adjust the psi (pounds per square inch). In a small system, we throw about
40 psi to it, BUT, keep the cfm up. Volume is the name of the game. 'nuff said.

Wet_Boots
09-09-2008, 03:59 PM
Hey, if you don't want to own the tools to do a job, then that's too damn bad. If you don't want to read threads with the word "winterizing" in them, then that's too damn bad, because there is information there.

Mike Leary
09-09-2008, 04:00 PM
Hey, if you don't want to own the tools to do a job, then that's too damn bad. If you don't want to read threads with the word "winterizing" in them, then that's too damn bad, because there is information there.

Did you take your heart medicine as I suggested?

kcas72
09-09-2008, 04:13 PM
Hey, if you don't want to own the tools to do a job, then that's too damn bad. If you don't want to read threads with the word "winterizing" in them, then that's too damn bad, because there is information there.

Now information is there? Which is it? Your last post you said I will never find the anwers here because no professional will admit to ever using a small compressor. And I have been reading threads with the words "winterizing" and as I said I just haven't found the answer, at least that I understand. My last question which seems to have set you off was just is there anything I would have to worry about in damaging my sprinklers? Which, btw, Mike answered a couple posts ago.

As far as, "too damn bad if I don't want to spend money...", I'm not a pro. That's why I have questions. My conclusion may be that it's best to leave it to a pro to blow out my system. That's why I ask these questions. I don't know what's your problem, just ignore my posts if my question pisses you off so much.

Wet_Boots
09-09-2008, 04:15 PM
Did you take your heart medicine as I suggested?Hey, I got 9K posts, so I get to be cranky once in a while. Especially when I've posted some pure gold on the subject in question.

kcas72
09-09-2008, 04:28 PM
Especially when I've posted some pure gold on the subject in question.

But what you don't realized is you never shared these golden answers with me.:) I asked about using a small compressor, you said it would take forever, jokes about the superbowl, etc.. I asked would using one damage my system at all? You said go do a search. And it's been nothing but a waste of time since then. Let's just move on.:)

Mike Leary
09-09-2008, 04:46 PM
But what you don't realized is you never shared these golden answers with me.:) I asked about using a small compressor, you said it would take forever, jokes about the superbowl, etc.. I asked would using one damage my system at all? You said go do a search. And it's been nothing but a waste of time since then. Let's just move on.:)

Jeez, gets 9k posts, tells the truth & gets hammered? :dizzy:

Wet_Boots
09-09-2008, 04:53 PM
Everything you need to know about winterizing with a dinky compressor (http://badgerbadgerbadger.com)

Mike Leary
09-09-2008, 04:55 PM
Knew that was coming. :laugh:

kcas72
09-09-2008, 05:04 PM
Jeez, gets 9k posts, tells the truth & gets hammered? :dizzy:


I feel the same.:dizzy:

Michael J. Donovan
09-09-2008, 06:50 PM
yes, a few posts were removed...I think we can move on instead of continuing to poke at one another

Waterit
09-09-2008, 11:20 PM
Haven't seen that one in a while, Boots, thanks for the stroll down memory lane!