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Ray'sLeds
08-06-2008, 08:52 PM
Hi, Mike Murphy introduced me to this forum and it is quite informative. I have designed and built custom LED lighting in the past ten years for yachts, aircraft, motorcycles, landscapes and water features to name a few. Having semi-retired in January I still stay up with the latest developemens and it is still coming fast. Looking around the forum. most of you seem to be involved in someway with LEDs. From a knowledge base, if I can assist any of you with your next LED project, let me know. Regards, Ray McQuaig

Chris J
08-06-2008, 09:09 PM
Hey Ray! Glad to see you here. It will be awesome if you could check in regularly as there is always a lot of conversation going on about LEDs. It's good to see you here, as we need an experienced and informative person who knows about LED lighting!
Again, welcome to the forum. I look forward to hearing your experienced and knowledgeable opinions! :clapping:

Mike M
08-06-2008, 09:33 PM
Hey, Ray! Welcome.

David Gretzmier
08-06-2008, 09:40 PM
glad to have you onboard !:) - I'm kinda split on led's in landscape lighting. I understand they are the wave of the future, but also they will erode my rebulb revenue. I am looking at the first strand of Christmas led's that truly mimic the color , brightness, spread of incandescent. This I can live with, albeit at 15x the cost of incandescent. led's are coming to christmas lighting whether I like it or not as well.

NightScenes
08-06-2008, 10:08 PM
Hello Ray and welcome!! What are your thoughts regarding LED MR replacement lamps?

Ray'sLeds
08-06-2008, 10:19 PM
Paul I see no problems with direct replcement LED MRs. My findings have been that most Mfgs don't drive them at their max lumen output. Regards Ray

NightScenes
08-06-2008, 10:32 PM
Thanks Ray, what about manufacturers? Who makes the best LED MR lamp?

Ray'sLeds
08-06-2008, 10:52 PM
Paul, Dialight or Superbright LEDs would probably be your best bet. The latter cheaper and easier to order from. I have only ordered a few for friends. I might also add that I would not mix them with standard MRs because LEDs are monochromatic (single wave length of light). Ray

NightScenes
08-06-2008, 11:11 PM
What about color temp of those LEDs? I would want a warm white around 2700K.

Chris J
08-06-2008, 11:15 PM
Oh, this is so cool to have someone who knows a little bit about Led. Ray, what is the problem with mixing LED and standard MRs? As long as the voltage is in the correct range, why would there be a problem?

Chris J
08-06-2008, 11:18 PM
By the way, I'm in Jacksonville, FL. I'd like to visit and pick your brain a bit. If you're ever up this way, or if you don't mind I'd like to visit for a couple of hours.

Ray'sLeds
08-06-2008, 11:27 PM
Paul, at Superbright you can buy what is known as warm white MRs -easy on the eye.

Chris, Incandes puts out multiple wave lengths of light whereas LEDs produce a single wavelength, therefore the LED gets a washout if the two are close together . Ray

Chris J
08-06-2008, 11:31 PM
Oh, I thought you meant that you couldn't mix Led and incandescent on the same circuit because of electrical problems.
That won't be an issue then. I'd never install different fixtures near each other, whether it be led or incandescent, and I'd never incorporate the two in the same scene.
Thank you very much!

Chris J
08-06-2008, 11:41 PM
And by the way, I thought I should give you the "heads up". There's a guy that frequents this forum that thinks he's the end all, know it all, God's gift to LED. I'm sure you will have the opportunity to correspond with him as soon as he logs on. He may, or may not, have a clue but I just can't trust him (brags too much) Know what I mean?

Ray'sLeds
08-06-2008, 11:43 PM
Chris, I would never try to sell a customer landscape LEDs if they have a street light in the area you are going to light - same problem. Ray

Chris J
08-06-2008, 11:53 PM
Could you please re-phrase that. I don't have a clue as to what you mean. Street lights? What the....

Ray'sLeds
08-06-2008, 11:56 PM
Street light as in city/county lights on the curb.

TXNSLighting
08-07-2008, 12:09 AM
And by the way, I thought I should give you the "heads up". There's a guy that frequents this forum that thinks he's the end all, know it all, God's gift to LED. I'm sure you will have the opportunity to correspond with him as soon as he logs on. He may, or may not, have a clue but I just can't trust him (brags too much) Know what I mean?

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh: ha!!!!

Chris J
08-07-2008, 12:16 AM
Street light as in city/county lights on the curb.

Ray, I still don't know what you're trying to say. Do you mean that LED landscape lights are not powerful enough to compete with stray lighting that may exist by site lights? Is it your belief that regular incandescent or halogen would have a better effect against this situation? Please explain.

Ray'sLeds
08-07-2008, 12:27 AM
Chris, when you have a very powerful site light, ie curb light, the more powerful incandes. (multy wave length) light will washout the effects of the LED (single wave length) lights. Hope that helps

Chris J
08-07-2008, 12:38 AM
Good God Man! I just don't understand! Site lights will wash out any landscape lighting project, LED or otherwise. What is this about multi wave vs. single wave? You're bringing up something that is totally off the wall to me. If you're going to state it as fact, then please explain the concept with more than two or three sentences!

Mike M
08-07-2008, 09:01 AM
Chris, halo's put out a range of color with an overall look of white, whereas the led's are so efficient they only put out a specific color temp. That is why they use so much less electricity. So ambient color from other sources will readily influence the led effect.

Ray'sLeds
08-07-2008, 09:11 AM
Well put Mike

NightScenes
08-07-2008, 09:18 AM
So you're saying that the LED doesn't put out a prizm of color?

NiteTymeIlluminations
08-07-2008, 09:19 AM
Chris, why whom would you be referring too when you make such a statement about bragging about led knowledge or anything at that matter??? You are a crack up.

Welcome Ray, sweet suff.

I am dabbling in LEDs. Just not completely happy yet...doing another project with about 60 spotlights. We will have area light but it will be CFLs in a 20 foot post. Probably lamped with a 13 watt spiral. So nothing too powerful...I wanted to wipe the posts out completely but they stay for safety reasons...

The LED spots are going to be uplighting some newly planted Royal Palms. We are using LEDs because we have LED step lights, LED marketlights, and LED color changing pool lights. Obviously its a very festive looking area.

Are we 2700 kelvin post lights going to interfere with my LED spots...or are my LEDs going to make the post lights look crazy...lol...it could go eitehr way here.

Explain to me the ramifications here of mixing CFLs and LED...

Good stuff!

JoeyD
08-07-2008, 10:29 AM
very cool thread! Welcome Ray!

Tomwilllight
08-07-2008, 11:37 AM
This group is an adventurous bunch. Many of us have worked with LEDs and many have had issues with them. The forum participant who has had the best experience with LEDs lives in Canada and is dealing with a much lower ambient temperature than most of the rest of us.

I've made some noise about heat and the problems with putting a MR16 retrofit LED unit that is designed for use indoors in an open track head, into a sealed landscape lighting fixture. The heat buildup and probability of a drastically reduced effective life for the LED makes the retrofit LED less than attracitve to me.

When dealing with a light source that many promise will deliver 50K hours of effective life, a reduction of even 50% of life will be very difficult to measure for a bunch of folks who's most specialized test equipment is an amp probe. Add to that the fact that LEDs don't burn out; they slowly decline in their output through out their life. Even after 100K hours, they may still be glowing, using the same amount power and producing NO effective light.

Although they are certainly getting much better, LEDs are and will continue to be a very different kind of light source from Halogen. There will continue to be major differences in color, durability in the landscape and cost for some time.

While LEDs may represent some savings in energy, the most recent reports I've seen suggest those savings may not be a great as promised - mostly because of the difficulty of creating a full-spectrum white without pumping more power (& heat) into the chips.

So much for my rant... Ray, please correct me if I've misunderstood or misrepresented information.

Tom

Ray'sLeds
08-07-2008, 11:46 AM
Correct Paul. As an example the blue LEDs I use produce 470 nanometers of blue in the overall light spectrum.

NightScenes
08-07-2008, 03:03 PM
Thanks Ray, that really could be a problem when light color is important. It would also mean that the best fit for LED product will be in those areas with no ambient lighting.

Ray'sLeds
08-07-2008, 05:03 PM
116409 I hope this photo goes thru.. It should give you an idea what can be done with LEDs. Ray

Ray'sLeds
08-07-2008, 05:26 PM
116410 Here is another photo with ambient light around to give another idea. These lights were set up on battery power (12vdc 4 amps)with trickle charger in case of power outage.

Ray'sLeds
08-07-2008, 05:48 PM
116412 These are some custom pathway lights I did in the Florida Keys in 2002.

Lite4
08-07-2008, 06:41 PM
Ray,
I really like the various colors utilized by the LED's. It seems you get a much richer true green or yellow or orange color than you do just lensing the standard halogens we use.

Ray'sLeds
08-07-2008, 06:50 PM
You're right Tim and using 85% less electricity.

Lite4
08-07-2008, 07:20 PM
I have always been very skeptical about LEDs, but It seems others who I know are very reputable claim they are incredibly close to halos. So I must do some deeper investigation. I must say the possibilities are rather exciting.

Ray'sLeds
08-07-2008, 07:34 PM
116437 A water feature that was done, also in the Florida Keys, that I was happy with.

Ray'sLeds
08-07-2008, 07:40 PM
116438 This Photo is in the same area as the water feature. The red light is at the owners request.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
08-07-2008, 07:41 PM
Oh, this is so cool to have someone who knows a little bit about Led.

Now that was funny. Thanks Chris.

Lite4
08-07-2008, 07:44 PM
Ray, that blue glow on that water feature looks very Sweeeet!! Nice job! Is that a single LED placed directly below the water fall or do you have multiples placed throughout the pool to give you that much fill glow.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
08-07-2008, 07:46 PM
Paul, Dialight or Superbright LEDs would probably be your best bet. The latter cheaper and easier to order from. I have only ordered a few for friends. I might also add that I would not mix them with standard MRs because LEDs are monochromatic (single wave length of light). Ray

Ray I dont know about Dialight, but Superbright is generally WAY behind the curve when it comes to general illumination power LED lamps. They have a lot of decent indicator and automotive LED lamps, but their power LEDs are really lacking.

Regards.

Ray'sLeds
08-07-2008, 07:58 PM
Tim that is a single LED underrwater... I will post a water feature I did in 02 in the Virgin Islands.

Ray'sLeds
08-07-2008, 08:02 PM
Paul I would look at Dialight's web site and choose the part you want. They sell thru Future Electronics also on the web. Ray

NightLightingFX
08-07-2008, 08:20 PM
Ray,
I really like the various colors utilized by the LED's. It seems you get a much richer true green or yellow or orange color than you do just lensing the standard halogens we use.

Tim,
FYI if you really like that deep color effect that the LED creates you can do it with MR16 halogens just use a quality dichloric (sp?) lens (the lens are expensive). I personally think that effect looks kind of fakey (not natural) so I haven't experimented much using dichloric lens. The only colored lens I use are the Mercury Vapor - green lens on evergreens, the blue moonlight lens for down lighting and on evergreens. And I have tried the pink lens for stamped concrete and stone work.
~Ned

NightLightingFX
08-07-2008, 08:28 PM
116410 Here is another photo with ambient light around to give another idea. These lights were set up on battery power (12vdc 4 amps)with trickle charger in case of power outage.

Ray,
I am very curious about how to set up a 12vdc system. What kind of voltage drop do you have in the DC system. is a 12 volt DC system feasable to do? You don't see any 12 volt DC systems available but I would think that if someone wanted to use LEDs a DC system would be ideal? Tell us about the problems or possibilities of a low voltage DC lighting system.
~Ned

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
08-07-2008, 08:47 PM
Chris, when you have a very powerful site light, ie curb light, the more powerful incandes. (multy wave length) light will washout the effects of the LED (single wave length) lights. Hope that helps

I just returned home a couple of hours ago from an installation we did in a suburban community. There is a HPS streetlight located at the curb of the client's circular driveway. Around the drive I installed 5 Treemounted downlights at 30' using Luxxo MT Warm White LED lamps. I noticed no diminished light intensity under the downlights at all, other then the competition from the Street Light.

I do know that R G B LEDs operate at very specific wavelengths... but I was under the impression that the phospors that are used in 'white' LED lamps create what is closer to a full spectrum light output.

Ray'sLeds
08-07-2008, 08:53 PM
Ned I have built a number of 12vdc systems. Since LEDs draw so little amperage I normally use a small tractor starter battery and a good quality trickle charger..add a 12vdc photo cell.. works great. As always, depends on the size of the job.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
08-07-2008, 08:55 PM
Paul I would look at Dialight's web site and choose the part you want. They sell thru Future Electronics also on the web. Ray

I just looked at Dialight's site. Seems to be a component manu/dealer more then anything.

Most of the guys here on this site are going to want sources for LED based fixtures such as DG Lights, Kichler, Vista, etc, or they are looking for fully developed and packaged Lamp solutions like the Kumho Luxxo, Ushio Synergy and Lamina SOL.

The task of assembling drivers, engines, colimators etc inside appropriate fixtures is beyond most people's expertise and outside of our time constraints.

Keep in mind there is a BIG difference between indicator, vehicle, etc LEDs and power LEDs.

NightLightingFX
08-07-2008, 09:02 PM
Ray,
What is the longest run you have done for a 12 volt DC system? I am going to PM you. I have thinking about 12 DC systems for a long time. I have never been able to find a resource.
~Ned

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
08-07-2008, 09:04 PM
This group is an adventurous bunch. Many of us have worked with LEDs and many have had issues with them. The forum participant who has had the best experience with LEDs lives in Canada and is dealing with a much lower ambient temperature than most of the rest of us.

Tom, really I have to disagree with you here... compare the climate of Southern Ontario to that of the majority of the Northern USA from Atlantic to Pacific. You will find it to be remarkably similar my friend.

I've made some noise about heat and the problems with putting a MR16 retrofit LED unit that is designed for use indoors in an open track head, into a sealed landscape lighting fixture. The heat buildup and probability of a drastically reduced effective life for the LED makes the retrofit LED less than attracitve to me.

Tom, there is at least one LED MR16 Lamp that has been engineered to operate below the LED engine's specifications for heat. The Kumho Luxxo line of LED MR16 lamps operate in enclosed fixtures below the 65 Degree Celcius max temp as rated by Nichia. Instead of basing your opinon on outdated lamps why not try something new? You might be pleasantly surprised.

When dealing with a light source that many promise will deliver 50K hours of effective life, a reduction of even 50% of life will be very difficult to measure for a bunch of folks who's most specialized test equipment is an amp probe. Add to that the fact that LEDs don't burn out; they slowly decline in their output through out their life. Even after 100K hours, they may still be glowing, using the same amount power and producing NO effective light.

Although they are certainly getting much better, LEDs are and will continue to be a very different kind of light source from Halogen. There will continue to be major differences in color, durability in the landscape and cost for some time.

While LEDs may represent some savings in energy, the most recent reports I've seen suggest those savings may not be a great as promised - mostly because of the difficulty of creating a full-spectrum white without pumping more power (& heat) into the chips.

The vast majority of the savings is realized in reduced maintenance requirments to the client.

So much for my rant... Ray, please correct me if I've misunderstood or misrepresented information.

Tom

I just shipped off a bunch of samples to Jan Moyer... Perhaps later this year you will have a chance to see these lamps in action in a landscape.

Ray'sLeds
08-07-2008, 09:07 PM
I understand.. everything I use is parts off the shelf. However, I'll take a look in the morning and see what I can find.

NightLightingFX
08-07-2008, 09:07 PM
Ray,
I would like to contact you. Can you e-mail me your contact info. You can go to my website and get my contact info. www.nightlightingfx.com
~Ned

NightLightingFX
08-07-2008, 09:34 PM
James,
I don't want to stir the pot, but I have to ask. Have you been using LEDs on the jobs you are doing right now? I have been under the impression that you have been doing a lot of research regarding LEDs and making some business deals with LEDs guys. However, I haven't heard of any successfull endorsements of LEDs that you have used in your jobs. Were the pics you posted of that resort on the lake LEDs? I am just asking because it sounds like you are really defending LEDs in your piece to Tom, but I haven't been under the impression that you have been using them a lot in your current jobs. Maybe I missed something and all your current work is LEDs? I am just curious, being that you are so passionate about LEDs. Are you using LEDs right now in your projects?
~Ned

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
08-07-2008, 09:52 PM
Yes Ned. I started using LED MR16 lamps last year in most of my installations. (700+ installed in 2007)

This year I am using the Luxxo MR16 LED lamp in every installation and almost all of my service work. I have installed about 350 of them in 2008 so far with excellent results.

Mike M
08-07-2008, 09:54 PM
James, forgive the blunt q, but how much are those LED bulbs each now?

NightLightingFX
08-07-2008, 10:08 PM
James,
So to clarify, you are using low voltage landscape fixtures mostly Night Scaping (I assume) with the MR16 LEDs. And you have been having great results, 700 is a lot of lamps. It sounds like you have proven that the LEDs are worth using except for the question of cost.
~Ned

Mike M
08-07-2008, 10:13 PM
Ray,

What kind of control/interface are you using for the RGB's?

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
08-07-2008, 10:14 PM
James, forgive the blunt q, but how much are those LED bulbs each now?

Not Blunt at all Mike. NET to the trades is $35 each and MSRP is $55 each.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
08-07-2008, 10:19 PM
James,
So to clarify, you are using low voltage landscape fixtures mostly Night Scaping (I assume) with the MR16 LEDs. And you have been having great results, 700 is a lot of lamps. It sounds like you have proven that the LEDs are worth using except for the question of cost.
~Ned

Ned I use a large variety of LV outdoor lighting components including Nightscaping, Hunza, CopperMoon, CAST, Vista, HK, etc etc etc.

The LUXXO LED MR16 lamps are 6mm longer then a standard GE MR16 but generally fit in any fixture that is designed to accomodate accessory lenses.

I have had great sucess with them and the clients love them. They are not a hard sell at all when you provide an accurate ROI and cost benefit analysis. (I have provided a very detailed CBA in a previous thread here) The savings are real both in terms of electrical consumption and reduced maintenance.

Regards.

Ray'sLeds
08-07-2008, 11:04 PM
Mike I use an appropriate driver for the led light designed and the power supply used.. 12 - 24 vdc or 120 vac. Hope this helps. Ray

Ray'sLeds
08-07-2008, 11:06 PM
James can you provide a URL for the data sheet/s on the Luxxo MR16 LED.

Thanks Ray

David Gretzmier
08-07-2008, 11:19 PM
At 35 each, these bulbs may be the next thing going if they perform as promised. Like james said, the biggest benefit is to the customer in reduced maintenance costs. I unfortunately see it from my perspective, which is reduced residual income from yearly maintenance fees.

I've said it before and I'll say it again.

Although I love the job satisfaction in this business, the value of your business, any business, is the predictability of your revenue stream next year. a one million revenue lawn maintenance business will sell for ten times the money as a one million revenue landscape installation company. At the end of my landscape lighting career, I want to have something to sell and move on to the next thing. LED's, when perfected, absolutely will kill residual income, and the value of everyone's business here.

I remember when the turf growth regulator primo came on the market over a decade ago, and of course, the chemical guys loved it and the cutters hated it. why? you spray, and you only have to cut your lawn once every 6 weeks. luckily for cutters, PGR's have never caught on because it still costs more in most cases to spray every 6 weeks than to cut weekly.

LED's are a different animal. I can see competitors offering them as an upsale of 35-50 bucks per fixture and telling customers these bulbs will last 10 years or more. you don't have to pay good old Dave G 10% of this job every year !

I love LED's in my christmas light business because they minimize MY maintenance expenses and allow me to make more money. why in the world would I get behind a product that is still unproven and in the long run, if they work, make me substantially less money?

Even James, the LED guru, is using a different LED than he used last year. what was great last year is old news. I'm all for trying new things, but I am not jumping in until I see 5,8 years of these things out in the field.

Lite4
08-07-2008, 11:33 PM
Tim,
FYI if you really like that deep color effect that the LED creates you can do it with MR16 halogens just use a quality dichloric (sp?) lens (the lens are expensive). I personally think that effect looks kind of fakey (not natural) so I haven't experimented much using dichloric lens. The only colored lens I use are the Mercury Vapor - green lens on evergreens, the blue moonlight lens for down lighting and on evergreens. And I have tried the pink lens for stamped concrete and stone work.
~Ned

Absolutely, I think it is supposed to look "fakey". It kind of gives you that theme park look. Probably would only use it for that purpose and not in a private residence unless you were trying to come up with some funky look.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
08-08-2008, 09:33 AM
James can you provide a URL for the data sheet/s on the Luxxo MR16 LED.

Thanks Ray

Ray, here is the spec sheet for the LED lamps:

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
08-08-2008, 09:39 AM
At 35 each, these bulbs may be the next thing going if they perform as promised. Like james said, the biggest benefit is to the customer in reduced maintenance costs. I unfortunately see it from my perspective, which is reduced residual income from yearly maintenance fees.

I've said it before and I'll say it again.

David, it really doesn't have to be that way...

1: The LED lamps are not the only lamps in the systems
2: Just because the lamps last a lot longer does not mean that the system does not need regular service. Cleaning, Aiming, and re-lamping all the miniatures is still required. Adjustments and additions still come from these regular visits.
3: As long as you are still selling and installing new systems, the increased revenue and profit from the continuing sale of LED lamps will more then make up for the R&P that you would have from replacements.
4: Keep in mind there is not yet an LED lamp replacement available for every application.
5: You have the ability to offer your clients the latest technology, applied in a well thought out application. Many clients will see this as a good thing.

If you think this thing through, and start to adapt, adopt and change, I think you will see the logic in it all.

Regards.

Tomwilllight
08-08-2008, 11:57 AM
This group is an adventurous bunch. Many of us have worked with LEDs and many have had issues with them. The forum participant who has had the best experience with LEDs lives in Canada and is dealing with a much lower ambient temperature than most of the rest of us.

Tom, really I have to disagree with you here... compare the climate of Southern Ontario to that of the majority of the Northern USA from Atlantic to Pacific. You will find it to be remarkably similar my friend.

James, I am aware that some significant portions of Canada lie below the 49th Parallel. I note that Ottawa is near the 45th, that I now live very near the 42nd and that I lived north of here, near the 43rd parallel, for 12 years. And I certainly agree that it does get warm up here...

When I contribute to this forum, I am aware that I'm addressing a national, no... forgive me, an international group. I don't think it stretches the truth to note that many of our participants are located below the Mason/Dixon line (near the 40th Parallel). In fact, I believe that most of our participants live and work in the southeast, southwest or southern California.

I have some experiece with the weather below the 40th Parallel, I was born near the 34th (Northwest of Atlanta) and I can tell you from personal experience that it's really very hot down there. And it stays hot for months. I'm talking about the kind of hot that slaps you hard when you walk out the door at 7:30 and makes you think your brains will boil away before noon.

I believe I am well qualified to suggest that you are dealing with a much lower ambient temperature than most of the rest of us.

Yes, Canada has some lovely weather as does much of the Northeastern states. That is one of the reasons I've stayed in the northeast for 22 years. But, the folks who live below the 40th parallel get to sit out on their decks at night more than a few weeks a year. They were the first to realize how much landscape lighting could add to the quality of their lives.

Tom

Ray'sLeds
08-08-2008, 01:24 PM
James I have been building LED lights, from scratch, for over ten years. Not just for landscapes, but many applications. A long time ago I retrofit some LED MR 16's in landscape fixtures and had no problems. However those lamps were manufactured using 5mm LEDs..no real heat problem. Now that we are using the high power LEDs, such as the Luxeon K2 from Philips and others, we have a heat problem, a real heat problem. If you notice on most retro High Power LED MRs there are heat sink fins on the outside of the lamp. If the heat cannot be transferred to the outside of the landscape fixture, I think you are going to have problems. I will post more about this after I speak with a friend at Philips.

Regards Ray

NightScenes
08-08-2008, 01:58 PM
Ray, this is where I'm torn. If I'm selling a client on the long life and maintenance savings of a lamp that should last 10 years and the heat only allows it to last 4, then what do I do? I would have to eat the cost of another $35 lamp plus labor. I just don't know if those things are ready for the retrofit market. What kind of results have you seen?

Ray'sLeds
08-08-2008, 02:18 PM
Paul, I When I first had a problem with retro using high power leds (2 jobs) I quit doing it. Then I found some fixtures that I could convert, using the fixture as a heat sink, and haven't had a problem since. I know this is not feasible for most but works for me. Ray

NightScenes
08-08-2008, 04:13 PM
Ray, are you using an aluminum fixture to help dissipate the heat or what are you doing to retrofit?

Ray'sLeds
08-08-2008, 04:22 PM
Yes, powder coated. I don't retro anything, I use the housing to build my light in. Ray

David Gretzmier
08-09-2008, 02:33 AM
James, i agree there may be increased profit by upselling the newest technology. but with that comes incredible risk. as paul mentioned above, the heat issue is still being figured out. it does not make financial sense to put bulbs in fixtures that cost 10 to 15 times the cost of a good halogen, tell the customer they will last 4 years, 10 years, whatever, charge the customer that much more for this product and then NOT KNOW what will happen.

I'm glad there are folks willing to risk their financial future by putting hundreds even thousands of these things in. by doing so, you and your customers will know in 5-10 years if it was a worthwile investment of your time and the customers dollars to upsell them to LED. until then, I know this business model works and is guaranteed for the customer, and it works and builds selling value in my comapny.

I agree you can try to sell customers that you need to come out each year and clean and aim. I cannot in good conscience even try to charge them what I would charge if I replace all the bulbs. not even half. more like 15-25%of that fee. because that would be fair.

Ok, done with LED soapbox for now.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
08-09-2008, 09:17 AM
There is no doubt that power LEDs create heat and this heat can, and has been, an issue when built into lamps like the MR configuration. However, to suggest that the heat issue is the killer for using LEDs in outdoor lighting applications is misguided.

The Luxxo LED MR16 lamps are different from those that have come before them. The engineers at Kumho have worked on the heat issue and dealt with it by using a proprietary driver system that is unlike most of the others on the market. I personally met and spoke with one of the product developers of this lamp. They have developed a driver that actually reduces the amount of heat produced by the LED engines.

The LED industry is changing all the time... why is everyone so skeptical that someone might actually make an advancement that works?

JoeyD
08-11-2008, 01:40 PM
It comes with the territory, look how skeptical some still are when you mention using 16v or even worse 24v!!

Tomwilllight
08-11-2008, 03:14 PM
What are our options for lamping residential landscape lighting if we eliminate 12 volt lamps from our inventory? What advantage is there for me to add higher voltage lamps, fixtures and transformers to my designer's tool box?

I've noticed Unique has started to push 24 volt... and now 16 volts? Exactly what are the advantages for me and my clients?

Who are the manufactures who produce 16 and/or 24 volt lamps? Do any offer the variety of wattages and distributions the manufacturers' of the 12 volt MR16 offer. What kind of life do these lamps offer? Are they commonly available and what should we expect to pay for them? Do they offer the wide range of price points we find with the MR16?

Of course we should innovate... If we didn't we all would still be using the PAR 36 - a lamp GE produced for Ford's tractors in 1939. :)

What to you think Joey? Perhaps this should be a new thread? I'd like to hear more about the advantages of 16 and 24 volt systems.

Thanks, Tom

JoeyD
08-11-2008, 05:48 PM
What are our options for lamping residential landscape lighting if we eliminate 12 volt lamps from our inventory? What advantage is there for me to add higher voltage lamps, fixtures and transformers to my designer's tool box? The advantage is mainly on the technical side with a handful of huge benefits ont he lamp life and halogen cycle side. Some may feel it gives you an edge as for maintenance as well because most guys wont want or know how to service a 24v system. Most all lamps you use today in 12v are avilable in 24v withthe exception of the Par36 and a few particular beam spreads.

I've noticed Unique has started to push 24 volt... and now 16 volts? Exactly what are the advantages for me and my clients? 16v was just an example I was using. Being that people feel that 15v is so much safer then non UL1838 approved 16v tap that is common on units we design for landscape lighting. My point was to stress that some people refuse to acknowledge that 16v is really no different than 15v saftey wise. Yet because UL1838 says to stop at 15v they treat it as the law yet they ignore that the NEC (which is the real boss here) says 30v or less is low voltage and considered safe. If you read the attachment in the thread I posted the link for below, you will see all the advantages 24v has above 12v. It does have some very strong positives from a designers stanpoint. For Example the Halogen range is now almost 3v with 24v and the lumen effeciency is much greater in a 24v lamp.
Who are the manufactures who produce 16 and/or 24 volt lamps? Ushio, GE, Sylvania are the 3 we are currently using for a 24v lamp selection.Do any offer the variety of wattages and distributions the manufacturers' of the 12 volt MR16 offer. YES!!!What kind of life do these lamps offer? The same as 12v, some vary depending on wattage just like with 12v.Are they commonly available and what should we expect to pay for them? Refer to the price list which is also in an attached thread in my Unique forum. 24v do come at a higher price as of today. Do they offer the wide range of price points we find with the MR16? Not sure I know exactly what you are asking here, but obviously prices will vary dpending on your supplier, quantity, and availability.

Of course we should innovate... If we didn't we all would still be using the PAR 36 - a lamp GE produced for Ford's tractors in 1939. Actually the Par36 GE lamp we use today is not the same 4414 that most used to use and that some still use today in the landscape. That lamp is what gave the Par such a bad rap in landscape ligthing. The GE Par36 we use today and have used for atleast 8 years now is the ONLY lamp developed for outdoor LANDSCAPE LIGHTING. This lamp is a flame sealed lamp that allows the fixture to withstand the natural elements it will face in the landscape. This lamp does not need to be in an encapsulated fixture as do most all MR16's. This lamp will not be available in 24v until the end of this year or early next year. We are currently working with GE on this 24v lamp.:)

What to you think Joey? Perhaps this should be a new thread? I'd like to hear more about the advantages of 16 and 24 volt systems. Again forget I mentioned 16v. that numbeer could be any number between 16 and 30. Focus on the 24v system and its true technical advantages over 12v. 12v lighting is and should be obsolete!!

Thanks, Tom



Tom,

See my answers in red above.

All good and reasonable questions. Most of the questions you have can be answered here on my 24v thread that is on the Unique Forum. Read the attachment. It should answer most of your questions. Anything further please respond there as to not hi jack this thread any further.


Joey D.

http://www.lawnsite.com/showthread.php?t=240720

For pricing go to this attachment
http://www.lawnsite.com/showthread.php?t=222630

Tomwilllight
08-11-2008, 06:29 PM
Joey, Thanks for the enlightenment and the links!

Tom

JoeyD
08-11-2008, 06:36 PM
I think you will see after reading about the 24v system that the benefits on the technical side are very hard to argue.

irrig8r
08-11-2008, 08:22 PM
12v lighting is and should be obsolete!!

That is a very bold statement. Some might even say fanatical...

Pro-Scapes
08-11-2008, 08:35 PM
Funny story. Ashley and I were in walmart last night and I ran past the light bulb section to grab some new lamps for the ceiling fans. Low and behold they had LED lamps. Assorted sizes ranging from br30 flood replacments to standard lightbulbs. They also had MR16 1w which they called a 20w replacement. Curiosity got the best of me of course and at only 6 bucks a pop I grabbed an indoor one and a landscape mr16

When I got home I tossed the mr16 in one of my fixtures on a brick pillar and powered it up. It was of course a real pale blue even tho they called it bright white. Im guessing its VERY close to the blue lens that comes with the unique downlights. I know this lamp (lights america ???) is cheap and definatly an offshore piece of junk but it just goes to show the intrest out there in energy effecient solutions.

ccfree
08-11-2008, 10:27 PM
Tom,

See my answers in red above.

All good and reasonable questions. Most of the questions you have can be answered here on my 24v thread that is on the Unique Forum. Read the attachment. It should answer most of your questions. Anything further please respond there as to not hi jack this thread any further.


Joey D.

http://www.lawnsite.com/showthread.php?t=240720

For pricing go to this attachment
http://www.lawnsite.com/showthread.php?t=222630

Ok Joey, so here is question that I have thought about for a long time.. Please enlighten me. Unique just came out with a 24V system. So why is your company going to the 24 axis and every other major manufacturer is going to the LED axis? LED is where most manufacturers are going. Yes sure they have a ways to go....but.....3 major manufacturers are developing that technology with the help of others. So why is your company going to the opposite extreme? As an 11 year lighting veteran, does your company see something that I don't? I just want to make sure I am in the loop.

TXNSLighting
08-11-2008, 10:53 PM
Hey Craig! i figured you would be asking that after our conversation the other day!

JoeyD
08-12-2008, 03:11 PM
Trying not hi-jack this thread....I posted my resonses here on the Unique forum. Please let me know if you guys have any other questions or concerns!!

http://www.lawnsite.com/showthread.php?p=2462946#post2462946

indylights
08-12-2008, 07:07 PM
When the LED technology gets worked out in the next 2-3 years, 24 volt will be obsolete.

Mike M
08-12-2008, 07:12 PM
lol.

24v kicks butt. No reason we can't have 24v transformers to power LED's.

My concern: will they make 24v LED bulbs for retrofitting the 24v halogens?

JoeyD
08-12-2008, 07:20 PM
When the LED technology gets worked out in the next 2-3 years, 24 volt will be obsolete.

LOL, well that gives us 2-3 years to promote a better way of doing things atleast!!

lol.

24v kicks butt. No reason we can't have 24v transformers to power LED's.

My concern: will they make 24v LED bulbs for retrofitting the 24v halogens?

Time will only tell. If you look at the systems as a whole the only way to make the LED system MORE effecient then it already will be, will be to make it 24v! Drop even more amperage and allow even more lights on a run!!!


24v is the Hub all over again to me. When we first released the Hub we had all kinds of people hating on us, questioning its worth. Now look! Everyone makes a Hub and most people have all adapted to using it.

Ray'sLeds
08-12-2008, 07:22 PM
Mike, I use 24v on my High Power LEDs now.. just a different type of transformer. Just about finished with research on MR16 retro fit and will post more about it tomorrow.

Regards
Ray

Mike M
08-12-2008, 07:34 PM
Ray;

Please, look into adding the private message feature to your "user cp" (profile). Thanks!

I have lots of questions on LED "white power" for commercial applications. Also, if I get motivated, maybe I'll sign up for the color kinetics training some day in Massachusetts. Holy crap, I spelled Massachusetts correctly on my first try.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
08-12-2008, 09:20 PM
Mike, I use 24v on my High Power LEDs now.. just a different type of transformer. Just about finished with research on MR16 retro fit and will post more about it tomorrow.

Regards
Ray

Wow Ray, you must have spent 24 hours a day for the past 5 days on this! To be "finished with research on MR16" LEDs in less then a week??? :dizzy: I have been at it for almost 3 years and still don't know everything.

How many units from different manufacturers have you tested first hand in the past few days?

I look forward to reading your findings.

Ray'sLeds
08-12-2008, 09:52 PM
Wow Ray, you must have spent 24 hours a day for the past 5 days on this! To be "finished with research on MR16" LEDs in less then a week??? :dizzy: I have been at it for almost 3 years and still don't know everything.

How many units from different manufacturers have you tested first hand in the past few days?

I look forward to reading your findings.

James I am waiting for a friend to return from Europe. He is with Philips Lighting and has helped with my projects for the past eight years.

Mike M
08-13-2008, 11:06 AM
Philips now owns Hadco and Color Kinetics. Anyone interested should check out the "color kinetics" website.

The last I read, there is a comprehensive training program for commercial design/build using their products. I think it's in Boston and it's a certification program that takes a few days.

Mike M
08-13-2008, 11:12 AM
If I was a fixture manu, I'd be interested in this.

http://www.ip.philips.com/articles/latestnews_newscenter/20080630LicensingLEDbased.html

Lite4
09-08-2008, 09:48 PM
Ok, I need to fab a waterproof LED so it is incredibly small in size and can run off a battery "AA". Anybody have any sources or ideas for small enclosures or LED hardware to put one of these together?
James, is the Luxeon LED the same or similar to your Luxxa?

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
09-08-2008, 10:52 PM
Tim. the Luxeon LED is a brand of LED engines and components. It is similar to the Nichia LED engine that the Luxxo lamp uses. However, you cannot simply purchase a Luxeon, or Nichia, or Cree power LED engine and pop it in a fixture... You need to have a matched power supply providing that LED with the right combination of volts and mA in the right waveform too. And you will need some form of optics, such as a collimator or lens in order to focus the beam to create the right output, finally you will also need some element of thermal management like a heat sink to take away the heat that the LED engine creates.

It is rather complex and not something you just jump into.

Indicator LEDs are easy... using the power LEDs are another thing altogether. This is why so much R&D has gone into quality lamps like the Luxxo which combines all of these elements together into a package that actually works.

You might be able to find a Flashlight LED module available from various off-shore vendors through a trading portal such as www.alibaba.com but I would suspect you might not be too happy with the cool colour.

I hope this helps, if not, call me some evening direct... just not tonight! *wink*

Lite4
09-08-2008, 11:51 PM
At this point I have located the driver, heat sink, diodes and all other necessary equipment for what I need. I don't really need to focus the light at all, a broad open flood of light is much better, but I need a housing that can fit it all. Much like the fishing lures that operate on a AAA battery in a clear plastic housing. The trick is finding a small battery housing and wiring the driver to it inside the housing. This probably makes no sense at all, sorry. You mentioned indicator LEDs and I had not even thought about them. Not sure if they are going to give enough light though. Maybe if they were massed together in a tight diode grouping.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
09-09-2008, 09:07 AM
Tim, what is the application?

The indicator LEDs will not work out, trust me... just not enough output and you have little control over the spec'd colour output.

As for a "housing"... without knowing the application... I would suggest a large pyrex glass test tube and a rubber stopper in the end. You could insert the batteries, and all the components into the test tube and seal it perfectly. The no matter where the LEDs were arranged the light would flood out of the enclosure.

Making some batter powered LED Lillypad Liters Tim?

Lite4
09-09-2008, 10:31 AM
I am doing lighting for a wedding and I am wanting to light the flower center pieces on the tables from within the vase itself. Obviously no wires, so that is why I am going to battery power and LEDs so it will last the whole evening.

David Gretzmier
09-09-2008, 01:15 PM
Just throwing this out there- Have you thought of starting with an LED AA flashlight and going from there? it sounds like you are looking for lumens, and a floody beam, somewhere between multi-5mm heads and maybe a lower bin SSC p4 light are your "floodiest" options. Cree's tend to be spots, even with orange peel reflectors. many of these are water-proof ( dunkable ) from fenix, streamlight, surefire, and others. candlepowerforums.com is a site similar to lawnsite with folks who are flashlight freaks who post and reply. you can go to the LED flashlight section and read a few threads to see if there is a light out there that would fit your needs.

Runtime will probably be an issue, as an AA wil not power your brighter led's for 2 hours. you probably are best with a multi-led head, probably 25-50 led's that is waterproof, and with multi aa batteries, maybe 3. that would give you flood, brightness, and runtime. the kicker wil be waterproof, and a quality headlamp is probably the best choice. That would allow you to locate the batteries somewhere in the arrangement and not under water.

Lite4
09-10-2008, 02:29 AM
Ok, I think I found what I was looking for. I actually found it by accident looking for something else. Go figuire.

http://www.lightsforalloccasions.com/detail.aspx?FloraLyte-Submersible,-WHITE&ID=90

irrig8r
09-10-2008, 07:14 AM
We used three dozen of thses at my son's wedding last year.

http://www.lightsforalloccasions.com/detail.aspx?LED-Tea-Light-Candle-with-Flicker&ID=81