rocky, clay mess of a lawn!!

[roccon31]

what would you do to fix this? it is 2 acres of really bad topsoil if you can even call it that! i know what i would do and how im going to bid it, i am just curious if there are some other avenues to be considered. most fellas think i should round-up the whole thing, spread topsoil, and start over. i think i have a better/equally cost effective solution though it may take alot longer in labor. 2 other grading/seeding guys walked away from the challenge so i want to get this right the first time. challenging stuff excites me where most guys run from it.

keep in mind there are 3 swales that need repaired also, and winter will be here before you know it. this yard gets alot of runoff from surrounding areas so retaining existing sod is my top priority. i DO NOT want to have to warranty this job next spring!

please tell me your thoughts!!

[JDUtah]

soil test results?

[Cooter]

I have a very similar 3.5 acre commercial site. The builders left it in ruins. Very rocky and more clay than dirt. I was thinking topdressing at maximum rates until getting desired top soil. I like you do not want to lose the existing lawn as it would otherwise become worse with any severe rains. I would like to hear your ideas.

[jeffinsgf]

Core aerate, topdress with compost, slit seed, repeat Spring and Fall for a couple years.

[Cooter]

That's my plan. Just unsure how I will topdress that large of an area. Nobody around here has anything to rent.

[Marcos]

what would you do to fix this? it is 2 acres of really bad topsoil if you can even call it that! i know what i would do and how im going to bid it, i am just curious if there are some other avenues to be considered. most fellas think i should round-up the whole thing, spread topsoil, and start over. i think i have a better/equally cost effective solution though it may take alot longer in labor. 2 other grading/seeding guys walked away from the challenge so i want to get this right the first time. challenging stuff excites me where most guys run from it.

keep in mind there are 3 swales that need repaired also, and winter will be here before you know it. this yard gets alot of runoff from surrounding areas so retaining existing sod is my top priority. i DO NOT want to have to warranty this job next spring!

please tell me your thoughts!!

I think that if you decide to kill the whole thing off, and then spread anything over that Martian landscape :laugh:, be it compost, topsoil, or whatever, then you MUST do some type of preliminary prep work to try to incorporate the two 'meeting layers' of soil medium together!

Otherwise...(from what I see from the very 1st pic you posted)...you'd be in for some pretty serious sheet wash erosion issues, if and when a thunderstorm decided to dump an inch or two on that moderately sloped yard!
:cry:

Of course...you'd 'get lucky' and not have this problem IF your timing is right as far as heavy rain is concerned, AND you used, say 20% perennial or annual rye as part of your final seed choice.
( Still....a BIG gamble!)

That 1st picture looks awful indeed......!
Almost as if you're living right on top of a genuine undisturbed glacial moraine!

After you've sprayed the place with Roundup and a blue tracker dye (added to ensure thoroughness of coverage), I'd go through the whole lawn with a Harley rake, if available.
This would enable you to loosen that top-layer of strata somewhat, maybe have the kids pull out the LARGER rocks (possibly for a landscape garden, huh? :))
After this is done, you'll then have a suitable 'loose' soil surface to apply topsoil to. But you may want to consider the idea of having finished compost delivered, and spread all over the place with an ol' fashioned manure spreader pulled by a small tractor.

If you can't get a Harley rake, just core aerate it until you're BLUE in the face, multiple times over! :cry:

I do just this very same thing (with compost) late every fall on many of the soccer fields I manage.
And they too are rocky, nasty, clay war zones!
Some folks used to give me funny looks when I told them I was using compost on the fields, and saw me using a goofy looking manure spreader :laugh:...

...but, today, not as many funny looks, not since they've seen the results!
:waving:

[Smallaxe]

All them little stones make for a miserable lawn.
I would be tempted to just bury them with a couple inches of decent topsoil and be done with it.

[JDUtah]

Honestly, the subtle hill takes away any chance to have a good ball game on it. Maybe some ultimate Frisbee.. but I would try to encourage the customer if you are not gonna use that large of a lawn for things very often.. other then to 'show off your house'... put some tree's, a pond, little stream, and more natural plants... just my .02.

[roccon31]

thanks guys,

to tear this lawn out and start over, would cost roughly twice what it would for my plan, because of the recent rise in equipment rental charges (dozers, trucks, etc) not to mention that most of the topsoil in the area is just as bad as this mess and it would be my butt on the line if i got bad soil delivered!

my plan WAS to fix the swales with coarse topsoil (4"-6") and lay down erosion fabric and seed, etc.

for the HUGE nasty patches, i was going to rough them up with my rotadairon and then spread 1.5-2 inches of composted topsoil (25 percent compost) and then seed, straw, fert, etc. for the other areas, where the existing sod is thicker, i was going to topdress very heavily (1 inch or so) drag it in, and the slitseed the entire lawn. i was also going to spread lime over the entire lawn before topdressing.

talked to customer today, gave rough estimate, he gave me the standard deafening silence, follow by an "oh my god" and now we will be meeting next week to see what the most important areas are to him. he wants to spend about 1/3 of my total rough estimate. i will try to give him the best value for his dollar, but he has ALOT of problem areas that need to be addressed in steps. we shall see what happens!

cooter- same here. i luckily found a few in my area for sale, which i may buy one, i have about 4 lawns to do this fall, most of them about 1/10th this size. with little other work going on in my area, i can afford to take the time and use the small machine for the big lawns, instead of trying to devise a way to do it faster.

[Marcos]

thanks guys,

to tear this lawn out and start over, would cost roughly twice what it would for my plan, because of the recent rise in equipment rental charges (dozers, trucks, etc) not to mention that most of the topsoil in the area is just as bad as this mess and it would be my butt on the line if i got bad soil delivered!

my plan WAS to fix the swales with coarse topsoil (4"-6") and lay down erosion fabric and seed, etc.

for the HUGE nasty patches, i was going to rough them up with my rotadairon and then spread 1.5-2 inches of composted topsoil (25 percent compost) and then seed, straw, fert, etc. for the other areas, where the existing sod is thicker, i was going to topdress very heavily (1 inch or so) drag it in, and the slitseed the entire lawn. i was also going to spread lime over the entire lawn before topdressing.

talked to customer today, gave rough estimate, he gave me the standard deafening silence, follow by an "oh my god" and now we will be meeting next week to see what the most important areas are to him. he wants to spend about 1/3 of my total rough estimate. i will try to give him the best value for his dollar, but he has ALOT of problem areas that need to be addressed in steps. we shall see what happens!

cooter- same here. i luckily found a few in my area for sale, which i may buy one, i have about 4 lawns to do this fall, most of them about 1/10th this size. with little other work going on in my area, i can afford to take the time and use the small machine for the big lawns, instead of trying to devise a way to do it faster.

I love your ideas of the composted topsoil and the erosion fabric (which I assume is the same thing people refer to around here as seed starter fabric).

And it sounds like you've done your homework as to the importance of blending the introduced media into the existing soil structure, to some degree at least.

I don't understand, though, why you would want to slit-seed areas that you had topdressed with a superior medium of some type. Broadcasting seed in these areas is all that would typically be needed, once the areas have been prepped and raked, of course. Then just straw or whatever.
Seed never should be slit into straight 'soil' situations, mainly because it's a waste of time, energy, and $$, more than anything else.

Applying lime over the whole area, huh?
What is the pH of that lawn's soil?

[rcreech]

I don't understand, though, why you would want to slit-seed areas that you had topdressed with a superior medium of some type. Broadcasting seed in these areas is all that would typically be needed, once the areas have been prepped and raked, of course. Then just straw or whatever.
Seed never should be slit into straight 'soil' situations, mainly because it's a waste of time, energy, and $$, more than anything else.


Marcos,

You say it should NEVER be done..but I almost ALWAYS use my slice seeder even on new lawns.

The only time I don't is if there are a lot of rocks present.

1) I love the seed placment
2) It helps to get great seed to soil contact
3) You can get by without strawing (with seed being pressed in or "in the soil)
4) Another reason I love it, is it seperates me from the competition (even though I don't have too much). Anyone can broadcast seed, but very few have a nice slice seeder. You just have to upsell it. It means better results and more $$$$$$$. Customer love to see nice, and complex equipment on their lawn as it makes them feel like they are getting what they are paying for. Sounds crazy I know....:dizzy: but I can't tell you how many seeding jobs I have gotten from people that see me out.

As far as time, energy and $$$$.....it does take a little more time, but not much more.

By the time a person preps the ground, seeds, rolls and straws, I would already be done in ONE pass with prep, seeding and packing.

I know what you are saying, but I can promise you that I get great results and it works awesome.

[roccon31]

I don't understand, though, why you would want to slit-seed areas that you had topdressed with a superior medium of some type. Broadcasting seed in these areas is all that would typically be needed, once the areas have been prepped and raked, of course. Then just straw or whatever.
Seed never should be slit into straight 'soil' situations, mainly because it's a waste of time, energy, and $$, more than anything else.

Applying lime over the whole area, huh?
What is the pH of that lawn's soil?

i should have elaborated a little bit. on the freshly tilled stuff, it would be broadcast spread, hand raked in and then strawed. on the existing sod areas, after topdressing, i want to slit seed to break up some of the hard clay and try to mix the compost down into the root structure of the sod. am i off base with this theory? please tell me if this wont work!!

for the lime- around here, lime always helps the lawns. our soil tends to be junk right from the get go. it is one of those services that is an add-on and is removable from the quote. if a customer starts complaining about price, it is one of those things that comes off to reduce customer costs, without completely comprimising the other work to be done. i lay out the whole ball of wax, then remove items when price calls for it.

[rcreech]

i should have elaborated a little bit. on the freshly tilled stuff, it would be broadcast spread, hand raked in and then strawed. on the existing sod areas, after topdressing, i want to slit seed to break up some of the hard clay and try to mix the compost down into the root structure of the sod. am i off base with this theory? please tell me if this wont work!!

for the lime- around here, lime always helps the lawns. our soil tends to be junk right from the get go. it is one of those services that is an add-on and is removable from the quote. if a customer starts complaining about price, it is one of those things that comes off to reduce customer costs, without completely comprimising the other work to be done. i lay out the whole ball of wax, then remove items when price calls for it.


I guess you didn't read my post...as you can use a slice seeder anytime and be fine.

Trust me...I do a ton of seeding and it works great!

[roccon31]

thanks creech!

[roccon31]

same lawn, 6 months later..... what a difference! work was finished in mid october, repaired washouts in early march. this pic was taken in late april.

its not perfect yet, but it will be soon....ahhhh the magic of compost!

[fl-landscapes]

................ great job!

[rcreech]

VERY NICE!

What type of grass did you end up using?

You got the hard work done...now mow high, keep those blades sharp and put it on a regular feeding and weed control program!

Looks GREAT!

[ICT Bill]

same lawn, 6 months later..... what a difference! work was finished in mid october, repaired washouts in early march. this pic was taken in late april.

its not perfect yet, but it will be soon....ahhhh the magic of compost!

SSSWEEEEEEETTTTTTTTTTT
Nice job, the customer has to be pleased
I do believe they need about 8 oaks trees on each side of the driveway..... don't you?
They should also put a small flower garden with perennials (and a few annuals) next to the entrance

[Marcos]

same lawn, 6 months later..... what a difference! work was finished in mid october, repaired washouts in early march. this pic was taken in late april.

its not perfect yet, but it will be soon....ahhhh the magic of compost!

That looks 100% better, roccon! :waving:

Did you go out and buy a manure spreader, or did you find some place locally that actually rents decent ones?
Or.....:cry:.....did you compost that monster 'by hand'?

[bigslick7878]

Looks good.

What did you do could you take us through the process??

[David C.]

Depends on whats in the customer's wallet!!!!!!!!!

If he wants to come off of the money--------he gets Plan A

If he wants to sit tight---------well---he may have to settle for Plan Z