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JKUCSMA
08-07-2008, 05:28 AM
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25936782/
Check this out,tells what Ethanol does to engines.

C4chris70
08-07-2008, 05:46 AM
Would adding Seafoam to our fuel help with this problem?

JKUCSMA
08-07-2008, 05:54 AM
Not sure on that,thing that scares me most is with the lean mixtures50/1-80/1,Ethanol leans it further,poof engine fried.We have a couple stations around that still sell pure gas,I think marathon also does,not sure if their around where your at.

DA Quality Lawn & YS
08-07-2008, 11:02 AM
Skimmed the article. Some truth I suppose (with small engines), but a fair degree of baloney in that article too.

Ethanol is not going away. E20 mandate here in MN within a few years. Maybe the manufacturers of small engines need to EQUIP them to handle current fuel???! Everyones blaming ethanol (food prices going up, what a joke, the price of oil/transportation is driving up some food prices), but lets stop the blame and move forward away from foreign oil, WHICH IS THE PROBLEM.

JKUCSMA
08-07-2008, 11:33 AM
Fyi Only,How do you burn 20% in your cars or trucks,when the max is 10% I think.Ethanol will never be the answer,it still pollutes the air,20% less mileage,and most older cars can't use it anyway,IMHO

Happy Frog
08-07-2008, 12:04 PM
I am not surprised by the claims made in the article.
Newer equipment should be "ethanol proof" shortly is it is not already.
You can expect rubber lines, seals and O-ring to deteriorate quickly on older equipment

butler1227
08-07-2008, 12:50 PM
Here in the NE a buddy told me about this stuff called K100 Fuel Treatment. Helps with the ethanol issues, not only that it also encapulates any moisture.

Richard Martin
08-07-2008, 02:41 PM
Well , well, well. I figured it wouldn't take long for ethanol to have problems and the gasoline companies knew it wouldn't last. You know how you can tell the gasoline companies knew? Because they weren't getting into the refining portion of this stuff. They didn't want to invest a dime in something that had a limited lifespan.

newz7151
08-07-2008, 04:50 PM
Maybe the manufacturers of small engines need to EQUIP them to handle current fuel???! Everyones blaming ethanol


So I guess you'll be the first to inform them about how to defeat the chemical property of ethanol that prevents 2 cycle oil from mixing with it and also how to keep it from washing the oil and other lubricants from the cylinders and other points of the engines that require lubrication?

Ethanol is a corrosive degreaser and will never play nice with oil/gas mixed engines. So if you want the manufactures to start doing something, you better be ready to carry around a 18 pound string trimmer and remember to never turn it on its side to edge with it.

DA Quality Lawn & YS
08-07-2008, 05:13 PM
So I guess you'll be the first to inform them about how to defeat the chemical property of ethanol that prevents 2 cycle oil from mixing with it and also how to keep it from washing the oil and other lubricants from the cylinders and other points of the engines that require lubrication?

Ethanol is a corrosive degreaser and will never play nice with oil/gas mixed engines. So if you want the manufactures to start doing something, you better be ready to carry around a 18 pound string trimmer and remember to never turn it on its side to edge with it.

I love how I (and some others here) get attacked for promoting a homegrown fuel source. Yes, I am from the Corn Belt (disclaimer). Small engines were designed to run on pure foreign oil gas right? So, re-design to accomodate alternative fuel - humans have the uncanny ability to do these sorts of things if they want to (or have to). You guys keep supporting foreign oil - I am all for homegrown fuel and am not saying corn ethanol is the end-all, but a darn, darn good start. :usflag:

DA Quality Lawn & YS
08-07-2008, 05:15 PM
Fyi Only,How do you burn 20% in your cars or trucks,when the max is 10% I think.Ethanol will never be the answer,it still pollutes the air,20% less mileage,and most older cars can't use it anyway,IMHO

MN is going to mandate 20% in a few years. We are std 10% now.
20% less mileage is incorrect, pollution is incorrect as you stated.
And, my older car is already running 10% eth.(and has since I bought it) with no problems over 150K miles.

Do you support the import of foreign oil? What is your idea for the fuel problem we have?

white1
08-07-2008, 05:24 PM
Maybe the manufacturers of small engines need to EQUIP them to handle current fuel???! Everyones blaming ethanol (food prices going up, what a joke, the price of oil/transportation is driving up some food prices), but lets stop the blame and move forward away from foreign oil, WHICH IS THE PROBLEM.

So lets all go junk our 2 year old cars boats and other fuel burning equipment (that may be paid for) and get new stuff that is equiped to burn ethanol?

I dont necessarily have a problem with ethanol, but try to avoid it. Unfortunately it isnt required (at least in La. to display unles the concentrations are above 10%)

I have a problem with that. I dont like using it, and avoid it when Im aware of it, but without posting, how do you know if you are using 10% or not?

traman
08-07-2008, 06:34 PM
in my echo manuals, it states that 10% ethanol is not a problem to run

Happy Frog
08-07-2008, 07:39 PM
Small engines were designed to run on pure foreign oil gas right?

Wrong. :nono:
They were designed to run on a gas/oil mix. Not on a gas/ethanol/oil mix.
It has nothing to do with foreign oil.
Ethanol is not a good thing in 2 stroke or 4mix engines, that all.

lifetree
08-07-2008, 07:52 PM
... Newer equipment should be "ethanol proof" shortly is it is not already. You can expect rubber lines, seals and O-ring to deteriorate quickly on older equipment

For purposes of this disussion, how is "newer equipment" and "older equipment" defined ?

jaybird24
08-07-2008, 07:57 PM
Ethanol attracts moisture, and moisture is not good for and engine-so that is one big problem. A friend of mine owns a dealership and has been a mechanic for 35 yrs. and he says the same thing. It's not so bad if you go through the gas like we do, but let it sit in a can, or an unsealed tank, and it will take in water and then that goes straight to the engine. He says over the last 5 years he has seen more moisture related problems than ever.

lifetree
08-07-2008, 08:02 PM
in my echo manuals, it states that 10% ethanol is not a problem to run

The Kohler website says that 10 % ethanol blends are OK in their small engines !!

Happy Frog
08-08-2008, 01:33 AM
For purposes of this disussion, how is "newer equipment" and "older equipment" defined ?

Before/after the apparition of ethanol in gasoline would be a good starting point but it is very much linked to manufacturers (as when they decided to make their engines ethanol proof).

02DURAMAX
08-08-2008, 01:46 AM
in my echo manuals, it states that 10% ethanol is not a problem to run

But anything more is not!

Cooter
08-08-2008, 04:15 AM
I love how I (and some others here) get attacked for promoting a homegrown fuel source. Yes, I am from the Corn Belt (disclaimer). Small engines were designed to run on pure foreign oil gas right? So, re-design to accomodate alternative fuel - humans have the uncanny ability to do these sorts of things if they want to (or have to). You guys keep supporting foreign oil - I am all for homegrown fuel and am not saying corn ethanol is the end-all, but a darn, darn good start. :usflag:


I too am from the corn belt and it is my opinion that the increasing ethanol production is rising other costs up. For many reasons, but this is about whether it is good or not for your small engines.

LushGreenLawn
08-08-2008, 06:46 AM
I have had 3 Ethanol related failures in handheld equipment that is under 2 years old. All carb related!

In Delaware, you do not have a choice, every gas station carries an ethanol blend by law. They should make it a choice, let the people decide what they want to buy.

BTW, my Kawasaki handheld manuals specifically say NOT to use ethanol fuel in their trimmers. I have a few pieces of Echo Equipment, under two years old, one of which experienced a failure, and I could not find anywhere in the manual where it said any kind of ethanol blend was O.K. I did not see where it said not to use it either, but what part of the manual did you see where it specifically said it was ok? I'll call echo if its in there and ask for reimbursement for the ethanol related issue if its in the manual that its ok.

WH401
08-08-2008, 07:24 AM
Ethanol is a joke, especially when made from corn. With corn, your putting out more energy to make ethanol than you recieve back from it. If you used sugar, it might be a smart idea, but there are such high tariff's on sugar. Ethanol lowers the octane rating of gas so the gasoline isn't firing off the plug but off the hot spots on the top of the piston head. When it does this it's just slowly blowing up the engine. Ethanol collects water and corrodes carburators. It's a highly financed operation backed by rich Washington beauracrats that are just looking to make even more money, that's the only reason it has made it this far. The public knows that it's a joke and that's the reason it hasn't caught on like regular gas. Why would you wanna spend the same amount or more of your money on a gallon of E85 when it won't get you anywhere near the performance of regular gas? I'm not supporting foreign oil, I think we need to go to other alternative's to, but ethanol is not the answer and never will be To produce it from corn your going to need hundreds of thousands of more farms for corn and you've only got so many people that want to grow stuff for a living. It's joke, more of a problem than it's worth and a waste of money, simply put.

pieperlc
08-08-2008, 07:51 AM
If ethanol attracts moisture, why do they say you don't have to add HEET to a tank of E85? WH401, I'm pretty sure ethanol has a higher octane. I think E85 is like 105 octane. That is why race car drivers use it in their cars, for more power. I don't know the answers, but I think ethanol takes a bad rap. Depending on who you listen to, I've heard that there is only like 7 cents of corn in a box of corn flakes. So why does the box cost $4.00? Back on topic, we've never had any ethanol related issues in our Stihl equipment with 2 4-mixes, 5 FS85's, and several blowers, chain saws, and hedge trimmers.

GravelyNut
08-08-2008, 09:29 AM
WH401 has some of it right but other parts wrong. Ethanol from corn at worst is an even break. At best you gain a max of 25%. Ethanol from sugar cane can top 1:7. One crude unit in and 7 Ethanol out. On the whole, in the US it is a joke. Most makers of equipment have said that E10 is ok. Anything more will damage the equipment. Some have stated point blank that they will not make their engines to run on E85. Corrosion of pot metal and attacking of rubber are the main problems. Ethanol is higher octane than gasoline, but most engines can really use it to the full advantage. Too low of a compression ratio in most modern engines.

And the use of Ethanol is mandated in gasoline in the US by the EPA. Those who are getting gas at regular gas stations will sooner or later find that it is the only fuel you'll get. Places near a racetrack or airport may still be able to get fuel without it for now. But don't count on it forever.

JKUCSMA
08-08-2008, 12:23 PM
http://healthandenergy.com/ethanol.htm

My point was it takes more energy to make than you get from it,so right from the begining your running a deficet.

traman
08-08-2008, 01:16 PM
I have had 3 Ethanol related failures in handheld equipment that is under 2 years old. All carb related!

In Delaware, you do not have a choice, every gas station carries an ethanol blend by law. They should make it a choice, let the people decide what they want to buy.

BTW, my Kawasaki handheld manuals specifically say NOT to use ethanol fuel in their trimmers. I have a few pieces of Echo Equipment, under two years old, one of which experienced a failure, and I could not find anywhere in the manual where it said any kind of ethanol blend was O.K. I did not see where it said not to use it either, but what part of the manual did you see where it specifically said it was ok? I'll call echo if its in there and ask for reimbursement for the ethanol related issue if its in the manual that its ok. echo manual PRE - OPERATION
FUEL
Fuel Requirements
Gasoline - Use 89 Octane [R+M/2] (mid grade or higher) gasoline
known to be good quality. Gasoline may contain up to 15% MTBE
(methyl tertiary-butyl ether). Gasohol containing methyl (wood) alcohol
is NOT approved.
Two Stroke Oil - A two-stroke engine oil meeting ISO-L-EGD (ISO/CD
13738) and J.A.S.O. FC Standards must be used. Echo brand premium
Power Blend TM Universal 2-Stroke Oil meets these standards. Engine
problems due to inadequate lubrication caused by failure to use an ISOL-
EGD and J.A.S.O. FC certified oil, such as Echo premium Power Blend
TM, will void the two-stroke engine warranty. (Emission related parts
only are covered for two years, regardless of two-stroke oil used, per

K/B
08-08-2008, 03:33 PM
Shindaiwa says max 10%...over that and you've got a voided warranty on any engine failure.

Richard Martin
08-08-2008, 07:55 PM
If ethanol attracts moisture, why do they say you don't have to add HEET to a tank of E85? WH401, I'm pretty sure ethanol has a higher octane. I think E85 is like 105 octane. That is why race car drivers use it in their cars, for more power. I don't know the answers, but I think ethanol takes a bad rap.

You don't add HEET because it's pointless to do so. Heet is alcohol and is the same stuff basic stuff that they're putting into gasoline to make E-85. The problem with E-85 is it attracts water just like Heet does except it does it all of the time. You usually only put Heet into you gas if you suspect there is water already there.

Additonally, it doesn't really matter that E-85 has a higher octane rating unless you have the means to take advantage of it. If a car is designed to run on 87 and you put 105 into it the car doesn't run any better or get better gas mileage.

105 is helpful if you have really high compression (like a race car) or want to play around with advancing ignition timing.

minix
08-09-2008, 09:34 AM
I use K100 Fuel Treatment in all my mowers, trimer's and trucks and have never had a problem. The diesel product is the best on the market that I have found. I was sold on this product when I seen a demo, they had a small jar and the guy took my water bottle and added water then opened a bottle of K100 and put it in the water and then put a wick and lit it and it burned everything out of the jar water and all.