PDA

View Full Version : competing with the mercury vapor crowd


TPnTX
08-08-2008, 12:00 AM
I have some friends and other contacts in the high end landscape business. These are "old money" areas of Dallas where MV is still key.

So I went to meet my friend today regarding a job doing some ornamental steel work.(a talent on mine that wont go away) anyways luck has it the architect was there. The job site is an older town home with a good size backyard. Lots of established landscape. I started looking around at all the lighting. There are some bollards being used, huge MV cans some of it up in the trees.

I suggested they rip all that out and let me install a quality low voltage system. I got their attention and they are interested and want me to demo. Not for the sake of demo'ing rather than to show them how much better it would look.

Funny how these guys in all they do, still are slow to come around to LV,

Anyway the next thing they brought up was downlighting. Surely you can't emulate what you get with MV in downlighting. After I told them "yes, actually I can" they took me to another job site. We're talking a real old money neighborhood with huge towering trees.

So I guess what Im getting at is that if you want to get in to these type neighborhoods where typically big money is spent, A you have to contend with the old school and B you are going to have to downlight.

So from way up there and for the full affect I should use a 50watt m16 with a 60 spread. And I should probably use a filter (green?) to emulate what they are used to seeing and then switch to blue to show them what it can look like.

Im willing to invest my time in this because Jay, my friend, gets good paying jobs from this architect. I want in. This job was quoted at 16k for the line voltage system.

We've kicked around the downlighting topic before but not necessarily in place of MV lights.

I actually have a guy working for me now on the Landscape crew that is an experienced climber too.

NightScenes
08-08-2008, 08:37 AM
I would say yes, you'll need to go with the upper wattage lamps and use MV filters so they get the same effect. It still won't be as bright but that's better, I think. You also need to educate them about the fact that MV is being phased out and maintenance costs for those lights is going through the roof. They have already stopped production of the MV ballasts (though there are large stocks of them available) and the lamp costs are really getting high.

I know that the Dallas area is John Watson Lighting area and MV is all he uses. I just don't get why???

Good luck,

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
08-08-2008, 09:21 AM
I compare the use of MH and MV HID lighting to using a 4" brush to paint a portrait.

I prefer to use smaller brushes and more brush strokes to produce a canvass that is much more rich, filled with contrast and depth of view.

TPnTX
08-08-2008, 12:34 PM
this cast fixture looks to have a longer more narrow shroud. Has anyone used this or a similar design.

ccfree
08-08-2008, 12:35 PM
I have some friends and other contacts in the high end landscape business. These are "old money" areas of Dallas where MV is still key.

So I went to meet my friend today regarding a job doing some ornamental steel work.(a talent on mine that wont go away) anyways luck has it the architect was there. The job site is an older town home with a good size backyard. Lots of established landscape. I started looking around at all the lighting. There are some bollards being used, huge MV cans some of it up in the trees.

I suggested they rip all that out and let me install a quality low voltage system. I got their attention and they are interested and want me to demo. Not for the sake of demo'ing rather than to show them how much better it would look.

Funny how these guys in all they do, still are slow to come around to LV,

Anyway the next thing they brought up was downlighting. Surely you can't emulate what you get with MV in downlighting. After I told them "yes, actually I can" they took me to another job site. We're talking a real old money neighborhood with huge towering trees.

So I guess what Im getting at is that if you want to get in to these type neighborhoods where typically big money is spent, A you have to contend with the old school and B you are going to have to downlight.

So from way up there and for the full affect I should use a 50watt m16 with a 60 spread. And I should probably use a filter (green?) to emulate what they are used to seeing and then switch to blue to show them what it can look like.

Im willing to invest my time in this because Jay, my friend, gets good paying jobs from this architect. I want in. This job was quoted at 16k for the line voltage system.

We've kicked around the downlighting topic before but not necessarily in place of MV lights.

I actually have a guy working for me now on the Landscape crew that is an experienced climber too.
Hey TPnTX,

I work in your market and yes you can get a close resemblance to what MV looks like. The green lens works great and so does the blue which I prefer. You might also want to look at Hadco LED which puts out a blue hue and is quite bright. The LED also lets you compete with the lamp hours of the MV. You get 50,000 hours from the LED. If you need any further info please let me know.

NightScenes
08-08-2008, 12:35 PM
The CAST fixture is good and Kichler has one with the long cowling as well (15494).

TPnTX
08-08-2008, 12:46 PM
oops this is the pic

TPnTX
08-08-2008, 12:55 PM
Craig I sent you a PM

ccfree
08-08-2008, 01:04 PM
I got it and replied, Thanks

Pro-Scapes
08-09-2008, 04:37 AM
dont forget he unique tree lights either... quasar 1 and lunar. The way they place the honeycomb louver out in front creates the least amount of glare out of any tree light I have seen.

Dont believe me ? Come take a tour for yourself on a propery and I will show you from 360 degree views and you tell me where the tree light is.

FIMCO-MEISTER
08-09-2008, 08:32 AM
I have some friends and other contacts in the high end landscape business. These are "old money" areas of Dallas where MV is still key.

So I went to meet my friend today regarding a job doing some ornamental steel work.(a talent on mine that wont go away) anyways luck has it the architect was there. The job site is an older town home with a good size backyard. Lots of established landscape. I started looking around at all the lighting. There are some bollards being used, huge MV cans some of it up in the trees.

I suggested they rip all that out and let me install a quality low voltage system. I got their attention and they are interested and want me to demo. Not for the sake of demo'ing rather than to show them how much better it would look.

Funny how these guys in all they do, still are slow to come around to LV,

Anyway the next thing they brought up was downlighting. Surely you can't emulate what you get with MV in downlighting. After I told them "yes, actually I can" they took me to another job site. We're talking a real old money neighborhood with huge towering trees.

So I guess what Im getting at is that if you want to get in to these type neighborhoods where typically big money is spent, A you have to contend with the old school and B you are going to have to downlight.

So from way up there and for the full affect I should use a 50watt m16 with a 60 spread. And I should probably use a filter (green?) to emulate what they are used to seeing and then switch to blue to show them what it can look like.

Im willing to invest my time in this because Jay, my friend, gets good paying jobs from this architect. I want in. This job was quoted at 16k for the line voltage system.

We've kicked around the downlighting topic before but not necessarily in place of MV lights.

I actually have a guy working for me now on the Landscape crew that is an experienced climber too.

I'm a Dallas irrigator so leave it at that but breaking the hold MV has in Dallas will be tough. One of the better jobs I saw though used the LV as an addition to MV. For certain effects they shut down the MVs and used the LV. Had three layers of lighting effects depending on what they were wanting at any particular time. I will say though that getting light down from high up in an oak tree nothing matches MV in my opinion. I'm an irrigator who studies others crafts so leave it at that puhleeze.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
08-09-2008, 08:52 AM
I am just in the process of quoting a new LV installation that will have me tear out over a dozen MV fixtures. They are well suited for large commercial and civic projects but I am not a fan of the huge brush strokes on residential properties.

And besides... Mercury = Bad. As I understand it the MV lamp is on its way out and will be unavailable in the near future.

TPnTX
08-09-2008, 10:08 AM
I may have to change my tune a little when I meet with these guys next week. The trees in the back of this property are really tall.
It may be a better situation for them to do MV in the back and then LV for the rest.
The remodel involves a lot of japanese garden stuff in the front, pool deck and water features in the rear back dropped by 25-35' trees all on a steep grade.

From what I understand in order to do with LV what you get with MV in this type of install, you need 2-3 lv fixtures to replace one MV fixture. Maybe thats not a problem necessarily but in doing this you can easily arrive at cost that is close to the MV cost. This all comes down to selling the LV as a superior product over something that has a firm hold in the market.

Has anyone ever tried to use a pole of some sort either to demo or perhaps help design. Like a 1 1/4 schedule 40 PVC? I know you cant position them well but it would sure be nice not having to put up my 28ft ladder for a demo.

TPnTX
08-09-2008, 10:21 AM
here is a pic.

also notice in this pic between the pool and deck is an area that that has the pvc sticking up. That is a water feature. The area will be covered with a plastic grid. On top to the grid is the small dark river rocks. Coming out of the rocks will be these small fountain things.

I need to come up with something to light those. The asked for a "pin point" type light coming up from the rocks. I dont think a 12 degree will work. I think this will be a good place for a fiber optic light.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
08-09-2008, 01:16 PM
I wouldnt even hesitate one moment to do that property in LV. Those trees look rather average in size and height to my eye. MV with all the ballast boxes, conduit, massive fixtures,etc etc is an eyesore all day long. Then there is the expense, requirement for an EC to do the connections and supply.

I think MV or MH would be overkill on that scope of property.... Just my .02

NightScenes
08-09-2008, 01:56 PM
I use LV in in large live oaks like these every day.

TPnTX
08-11-2008, 11:58 PM
I've got a 50w 36 on a pole right now over 25ft. Its pretty dang bright. I should probably use a 60*.

I talked to my friend today and he said honestly he doesn't think the architect is going to go for it. They are so stuck on the MV. So what is it, the color you think they mostly are used to? I'll try and take two filters one blue and one green & try them both.

I like the PVC pole. It works fine if you use a 12ft ladder to stand on as you add pieces. I think I make 3 lights to use.

If you can't tell I'm determined if nothing else.

Paul what lamps do you use and have you ever had to deal with this issue of convincing the one that are set on MV?

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
08-12-2008, 12:40 AM
1: You are never going to get one LV halogen lamp to emulate the colour, intensity and beam spread of a Mercury Vapor Lamp. It just wont happen
2: You will probably need to use more then one LV fixture per tree if they are large

Remember my analogy about the brush strokes? A MV lamp is going to be like using a 4" brush to paint a portrait, It can be done but you loose a lot of details IMO.
Using LV lamps and fixtures allows you to use more 'brush strokes' and therefore introduce more detail and depth into the view and object.

I would never put a LV lamp up against a MV lamp. They are completely different species.

Best of luck

TXNSLighting
08-12-2008, 01:16 AM
dont forget he unique tree lights either... quasar 1 and lunar. The way they place the honeycomb louver out in front creates the least amount of glare out of any tree light I have seen.

Dont believe me ? Come take a tour for yourself on a propery and I will show you from 360 degree views and you tell me where the tree light is.

Uniques tree lights are great!

TXNSLighting
08-12-2008, 01:19 AM
What area is that in TPn?

TPnTX
08-12-2008, 07:23 AM
James I wasn't being very clear. I do realize one LV can't do it alone and I've already used your analogy and will probably use it again when I speak to the architect. I am going to make 3 tree lights to use for the demo in the trees in an effort to change his mind not in that you can replace the MV with and LV, rather "look what we can do with LV that you don't get with the other"

Having said that, I wonder 'typically' which apart of the MV is so appealing. Is it the color. There is a good chance it is the color because as mentioned ealier they are used so much in these areas.

I simply trying to arm myself as much as possible. Its an import meeting.

Ryan this job is close to Kessler Park. The same group has another job in some town homes next to American Airlines Center. A lot of their work is in or around University Park and the Inwood areas of Dallas. $$$$$$$$$$$.$$ residents such as Staubach, Henley, Cuban.

I was helping my friend on a job a couple of years ago. A nice older Billionaire lady who does corporate hostile takeovers for a living. She was out kinda working with us, really nice person. She said most of her "wife" neighbors don't enjoy getting out doors and working in the garden...Except that "Eagle Lady" referring to Mrs Henley. Not to name drop because they aren't my customers. Yet.

This one property is not as big a park like some on the others. As mentioned it should work if I can just get the guy to like what he sees.

NightScenes
08-12-2008, 10:49 AM
I don't know if you can convince them to switch to LV instead of MV but you should bring up the fact that the MV ballasts are no longer being produced and the lamp prices are going through the roof. Those lights will be completely phased out in the next 10 years and then they'll have to scrap the whole thing. There's also a safety issue with putting line voltage in trees where a strong storm can snap limbs and cause bare wires to be exposed.

You can achieve the color with the lenses if that's what they like but that green color makes human flesh look gray at night. Nothing like having a bunch of corpses walking around at a dinner party.:laugh:

Pro-Scapes
08-12-2008, 02:02 PM
To me it looks very unnatural to have hot spots in your trees that can be seen from blocks away. Similar to a UFO landing in your yard. Its just over powering. Municipal or commercial is a different story.

I know many MV contractors also offer lighting protection for trees that are priceless or could not be replaced. They install several conductors in the trees then ground it out to protect the trees.

I have about 30 MV ballasts in the shop that I have pulled out this year in favor of the unique downlights we install. Not sure if they work or what but they are here if anyone wants to discuss grabbing them from me.

JoeyD
08-12-2008, 03:19 PM
DEMO DEMO DEMO!!!! Only way for you and the client to know what your up against and what your capable of................