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Grassman08
08-12-2008, 01:20 PM
I am in Toledo, Ohio and have been reading and have heard positive feed back on Tenacity herbicide by Syngenta. I am wandering how well it does on nutsedge. I have used both Manage and Dismiss. I used Dismiss for the first time last Friday, and are already seeing results. From what I have heard and read, that Tenacity is both used on broadleaf and grassy weeds, as well as nimblewill out of bentgrass. Are there any users out there, if so what do you like/dislike? Also, where besides John Deere Landscapes can you purchase this product, our store does not have it yet. Any correspondence is greatly appreciated. Thank you.

LIBERTYLANDSCAPING
08-12-2008, 06:10 PM
Unfortunately, it's only labeled for golf courses at this time:cry: Dismiss has always gotten quick results:clapping:

Weed Busters
08-12-2008, 06:18 PM
Tenacity is about the only thing that is labeled for nimblewill, but you can't use on residential lawns. One other thing, check the price. I was going to use some but changed my mind........ 725.00 per gallon...... didn't need it that bad.

rcreech
08-12-2008, 10:40 PM
Tenacity is about the only thing that is labeled for nimblewill, but you can't use on residential lawns. One other thing, check the price. I was going to use some but changed my mind........ 725.00 per gallon...... didn't need it that bad.


Tenacity will be the best product to hit the market. You can't let the price/bag or price/gallon ever scare you.

You have to look at the use rate and look at cost/acre or cost/1000.

NattyLawn
08-13-2008, 10:20 AM
From what I heard last winter, one of the kickers is if you walk in it wet, you will leave white tracks on the turf. That can't be good if you let pets out before dry or if I need to spot treat some nimblewill. I'd really like to kill some nimblewill though.

EA Quinn
08-13-2008, 11:54 AM
Tenacity should be released to people other than golf courses in the spring. At least thats what syngenta has told me.

rcreech
08-13-2008, 05:22 PM
From what I heard last winter, one of the kickers is if you walk in it wet, you will leave white tracks on the turf. That can't be good if you let pets out before dry or if I need to spot treat some nimblewill. I'd really like to kill some nimblewill though.

I don't think that is quite accurate.

Tenacity does turn weeds white, but you won't leave tracks!

It that was the case...it wouldn't be able to be used in ride on's.

heritage
08-13-2008, 06:21 PM
Tenacity will be the best product to hit the market. You can't let the price/bag or price/gallon ever scare you.

You have to look at the use rate and look at cost/acre or cost/1000.

Exactly Creech.

If I recall reading 3-4 years ago about Mesosterone and Callisto (Farm Label) the use rate was 3 ounces per ACRE.

That 725 dollar gallon, would cover 42 Acres if same AI. %......17 Bucks an Acre...40 cents per 1,000.


Pete

NattyLawn
08-13-2008, 09:56 PM
I don't think that is quite accurate.

Tenacity does turn weeds white, but you won't leave tracks!

It that was the case...it wouldn't be able to be used in ride on's.

That info is straight from the mouth of the PSU professor from our winter conference. I have no first hand use of the product, and from what I've read before, you do on the ag side.

Is anyone using this in ride on's on the golf course?

rcreech
08-13-2008, 10:32 PM
That info is straight from the mouth of the PSU professor from our winter conference. I have no first hand use of the product, and from what I've read before, you do on the ag side.

Is anyone using this in ride on's on the golf course?

Do you know what the reason would be for "making tracks"?

It doesn't have any affect on established grasses (cool season)...so I am just wondering why tracks would occur?

I have used Mesitrione for several years now...and the only time I see any damage is OVERLAP! 2X rate isn't a good thing...in corn anyway!

NattyLawn
08-13-2008, 11:10 PM
Do you know what the reason would be for "making tracks"?

It doesn't have any affect on established grasses (cool season)...so I am just wondering why tracks would occur?

I have used Mesitrione for several years now...and the only time I see any damage is OVERLAP! 2X rate isn't a good thing...in corn anyway!

I'll see if I can find my notes. Off hand, I believe the prof said bluegrass was the best turf for handling the color change. Fescue and rye weren't doing so well in trials.

Grandview
08-14-2008, 07:16 AM
Exactly Creech.

If I recall reading 3-4 years ago about Mesosterone and Callisto (Farm Label) the use rate was 3 ounces per ACRE.

That 725 dollar gallon, would cover 42 Acres if same AI. %......17 Bucks an Acre...40 cents per 1,000.


Pete

Tenacity will probably be priced higher per acre than Calisto. That is just the nature of the farm/turf markets.

heritage
08-14-2008, 04:10 PM
Tenacity will probably be priced higher per acre than Calisto. That is just the nature of the farm/turf markets.

I'm sure you are correct!

My guess is AT LEAST $1.00 per K upwards of $3.00 Per K.

Pete

Weed Busters
08-14-2008, 11:11 PM
You can get Callisto for under 500.00 per gallon, compared to the 725.00 for Tenacity. Not hard to figure that difference out.

heritage
08-14-2008, 11:28 PM
You can get Callisto for under 500.00 per gallon, compared to the 725.00 for Tenacity. Not hard to figure that difference out.

Thanks Weed,

Doing the math comes easy for me...........The issue is that Callisto is not labled for Turf, far as I know, and I won't risk my License's.

Thanks,

Pete

heritage
08-14-2008, 11:33 PM
You can get Callisto for under 500.00 per gallon, compared to the 725.00 for Tenacity. Not hard to figure that difference out.

Just checked both Label's......Both 40% A.I.

Callisto still no turf use.

Pete

Whitey4
10-21-2009, 10:27 PM
I was perusing the NYS DEC approved chemical ist... there was Tenacity. I didn't know it had been approved.

Geeze, this stuff is labeled for all kinds of stuff I am having trouble with... nimblewill, poa annua, bentgrass (control for Y nutsedge) and it's labeled as safe for KGB (rye and creeping fescue at lower rates) and for half of the targets, it's a pre and post product.

Best thing is it is NOT restricted on LI!

I know it's expensive. What I want to know is how well it works. Any feedback?

Whitey4
10-21-2009, 10:46 PM
Oh... here is the link. From that link, there is lots of info available... studies with pics, labels, etc.

http://www.syngentaprofessionalproducts.com/prodrender/index.aspx?prodid=1037

MnLefty
10-21-2009, 10:50 PM
I was perusing the NYS DEC approved chemical ist... there was Tenacity. I didn't know it had been approved.

Geeze, this stuff is labeled for all kinds of stuff I am having trouble with... nimblewill, poa annua, bentgrass (control for Y nutsedge) and it's labeled as safe for KGB (rye and creeping fescue at lower rates) and for half of the targets, it's a pre and post product.

Best thing is it is NOT restricted on LI!

I know it's expensive. What I want to know is how well it works. Any feedback?

Don't get too excited yet Whitey... it may have cleared NY regs, but it still does not carry a commercial/residential lawn label. Golf course and sod farm use only. According to Syngenta reps, some commercial use may be coming, but residential labeling is a long long ways off, if ever. Some of it has to do with the way plants react to it, turning bleached white... they just don't want to deal with the complaints/concerns too many will have even when the product is working perfectly.

Whitey4
10-21-2009, 11:09 PM
Don't get too excited yet Whitey... it may have cleared NY regs, but it still does not carry a commercial/residential lawn label. Golf course and sod farm use only. According to Syngenta reps, some commercial use may be coming, but residential labeling is a long long ways off, if ever. Some of it has to do with the way plants react to it, turning bleached white... they just don't want to deal with the complaints/concerns too many will have even when the product is working perfectly.

The EPA approved it for residential some time ago. It even got the "low risk" endorsement. I looked at the NYS DEC site, and it shows up as approved. I don't see ant restrictions on it.

http://www.dec.ny.gov/docs/materials_minerals_pdf/pestprod.pdf

:confused:

NattyLawn
10-21-2009, 11:31 PM
I wish this would get going soon. I've been telling a few customers that there might be a selective way to get rid of their nimblewill next year.

LIBERTYLANDSCAPING
10-21-2009, 11:41 PM
Just because the EPA approves certian use sites, doesn't mean that Syngenta HAS to put them on the label. They are worried about a problem with overapplication & the affect of the negative effects on their reputation. :cry:

MnLefty
10-22-2009, 08:33 AM
It really is too bad that residential use will likely never make the label. The selective control of nimblewill and bentgrass among others... It's great for renovations, it can be used AT seeding similar to Tupersan... I'm not advocating it ;-), but I suspect there will be many who eventually will take the chance and go ahead and use it on residential turf even though it's not labeled.

Whitey4
10-22-2009, 10:21 AM
Just because the EPA approves certian use sites, doesn't mean that Syngenta HAS to put them on the label. They are worried about a problem with overapplication & the affect of the negative effects on their reputation. :cry:

That just doesn't make much sense to me. It got the low risk approval from the EPA, it's derived from a freakin plant... the bottlebrush. They sell far more dangerous stuff than this is.

I did take a peak at EBay. No Tenacity, but Certianty was out there.

ted putnam
10-22-2009, 10:57 AM
That just doesn't make much sense to me. It got the low risk approval from the EPA, it's derived from a freakin plant... the bottlebrush. They sell far more dangerous stuff than this is.

I did take a peak at EBay. No Tenacity, but Certianty was out there.

Isn't it wonderful how ANYBODY can buy just about Anything on the net....no questions asked.:dizzy: I suspect there will be MSMA out there on the "Black Market" next year....for a price!

MnLefty
10-22-2009, 12:37 PM
That just doesn't make much sense to me. It got the low risk approval from the EPA, it's derived from a freakin plant... the bottlebrush. They sell far more dangerous stuff than this is.

I did take a peak at EBay. No Tenacity, but Certianty was out there.

From Syngenta's point of view, it really has nothing to do with the toxicity, or lack thereof. It's because of how things look, how the product works. Syngenta put together this signage (http://www.greencastonline.com/TenacityHerbicide/PDF/TenacityWhiteningSign.pdf) for golf courses to help them explain what is going on as things turn white. They also chose pictures where there is no whitening of the desirable turf, WHICH CAN HAPPEN. For Syngenta, at this time, it is not worth it for them to try to educate every LCO, homeowner, property manager, etc... since it would take more than just a one page flyer. And if they don't take the time to educate they will most assuredly have questions and complaints up the wazoo about "why is everything turning white?"

It sucks for those that could really benefit from it, but that's how it is.

Ric
10-22-2009, 12:52 PM
From Syngenta's point of view, it really has nothing to do with the toxicity, or lack thereof. It's because of how things look, how the product works. Syngenta put together this signage (http://www.greencastonline.com/TenacityHerbicide/PDF/TenacityWhiteningSign.pdf) for golf courses to help them explain what is going on as things turn white. They also chose pictures where there is no whitening of the desirable turf, WHICH CAN HAPPEN. For Syngenta, at this time, it is not worth it for them to try to educate every LCO, homeowner, property manager, etc... since it would take more than just a one page flyer. And if they don't take the time to educate they will most assuredly have questions and complaints up the wazoo about "why is everything turning white?"

It sucks for those that could really benefit from it, but that's how it is.

Mnlefty

I have not tried Tenacity and Maybe because of the $ 747.00 agency price per gallon. However it is labeled to cover 32 acres of St Augustine Turf. Asulox is a Herbicide that was taken off of our side for pretty much the same reason. They can sell all they can make to Corn and Sugarcane farmers without 1/10 the problems.

Can tell us a little more about everything turning White?

MnLefty
10-22-2009, 01:42 PM
Mnlefty


Can tell us a little more about everything turning White?

Syngenta can better than I can.:laugh:

Here's the whitening page on their area dedicated to Tenacity...

http://www.greencastonline.com/TenacityHerbicide/About-Whitening.html

Ric
10-22-2009, 03:58 PM
Syngenta can better than I can.:laugh:

Here's the whitening page on their area dedicated to Tenacity...

http://www.greencastonline.com/TenacityHerbicide/About-Whitening.html

MNlefty

Thanks

While whiting is a problem, Syngenta Seems to have right answers to elimitate customer complains. I think if sold correctly the customer would rather have white grass for a few weeks than weeds. However is Syngenta telling us the whole truth about whiting?

LIBERTYLANDSCAPING
10-22-2009, 04:11 PM
I spoke w/ Syngenta rep & he explained the debate is what will happen when a company sends out a "lawn boy" with little to no knowledge & mabee without highly calibrated equipment & turns tons of lawns white-weeds, grass & all. Said it could hurt their reputation as some in the industry would wrongly bad mouth the product, even though if you follow the label it is safe.

The "white" effects on turfgrass show up with only a 1X overlap in coverage... I begged him to push for some type of residential labeling even if it meens some sort of "certification" needed through them to purchase & have a warranty.

It really is too bad, but one needs look no further than some indivduals on this site to see what they are worried about:hammerhead::cry:

ted putnam
10-22-2009, 05:58 PM
I spoke w/ Syngenta rep & he explained the debate is what will happen when a company sends out a "lawn boy" with little to no knowledge & mabee without highly calibrated equipment & turns tons of lawns white-weeds, grass & all. Said it could hurt their reputation as some in the industry would wrongly bad mouth the product, even though if you follow the label it is safe.

The "white" effects on turfgrass show up with only a 1X overlap in coverage... I begged him to push for some type of residential labeling even if it meens some sort of "certification" needed through them to purchase & have a warranty.

It really is too bad, but one needs look no further than some indivduals on this site to see what they are worried about:hammerhead::cry:

So...what you're saying is...They'd have to raise the bar there too???:laugh: And...next thing you know, somebody's selling it to every Tom, Dick and Nimrod out there on e-bay. It really is sad because not all of us got our license in the bottom of a Crackerjack box.

LIBERTYLANDSCAPING
10-22-2009, 06:40 PM
It really is sad because not all of us got our license in the bottom of a Crackerjack box.

You're just mad because you never bought the box with the applicators license:laugh: You could have kept trying:laugh:

LIBERTYLANDSCAPING
10-22-2009, 06:47 PM
And...next thing you know, somebody's selling it to every Tom, Dick and Nimrod out there on e-bay.

Maybe they could classify a RUP for commercial & residential properties-that would at least keep it off of ebay, but there would still be the issue of dumba$$ licensed companies sending the flunkie of the month out with a tankfull of it.

Syngenta needs to form a spin-off company and sell the "iffy" chemicals under that name, so it wouln't hurt their image:laugh:

ted putnam
10-22-2009, 07:17 PM
You're just mad because you never bought the box with the applicators license:laugh: You could have kept trying:laugh:

:laugh::laugh:Someone lied to me! They told me it was in one of those "prize" bubble gum machines in grocery stores and they were only in the machines that were in grocery stores in Florida.:dizzy: I kept making trips down there and feeding those machines quarters until I finally couldn't afford to do it anymore. I had to give up on that strategy and get it the old fashioned way...work for it!:laugh:

rcreech
10-22-2009, 10:03 PM
If you are planning on using Tenacity "off label"...you may as well buy do it right and just buy Collisto (from the ag side). It is the exact same product and is probably close to half the price or less. I have used it for 3 years in a premix called Lexar.

WORKS GREAT!

Whitey4
10-22-2009, 10:33 PM
OK, this makes at least a bit more sense... over applying or over lapping could seriously damage healthy turf. The tank mix has to be just right, and it does not lend itself to backpack spray guys like myself for that very reason. I could see where the company would be concerned about liabilty.

Rodney, while I have to be honest and admit I'd love to use Tenacity... at least it is labeled for how to apply to desireable cool season grasses. Lexar is not. I learned my lesson the hard way regarding trying to "interpret" a label, and applying it based on just AI per gallon per acre when compared to another product with the same AI.

I have too much at stake with my pesticide registration to risk using a control that has not been approved for residential. It sure would be a nice tool to have though.

In any case, they even package the stuff to discourage apps other than golf courses. A gallon? I'd have to will it to a nephew or something. Now Certainty... that stuff is out on the net in smallish packaging. That is another golf course only herbicide here.

rcreech
10-23-2009, 06:35 AM
OK, this makes at least a bit more sense... over applying or over lapping could seriously damage healthy turf. The tank mix has to be just right, and it does not lend itself to backpack spray guys like myself for that very reason. I could see where the company would be concerned about liabilty.

Rodney, while I have to be honest and admit I'd love to use Tenacity... at least it is labeled for how to apply to desireable cool season grasses. Lexar is not. I learned my lesson the hard way regarding trying to "interpret" a label, and applying it based on just AI per gallon per acre when compared to another product with the same AI.

I have too much at stake with my pesticide registration to risk using a control that has not been approved for residential. It sure would be a nice tool to have though.

In any case, they even package the stuff to discourage apps other than golf courses. A gallon? I'd have to will it to a nephew or something. Now Certainty... that stuff is out on the net in smallish packaging. That is another golf course only herbicide here.


I was ONLY kidding!

Plus....you don't want to use LEXAR as it is a premix for corn....I said Collisto! :)

Lexar would DEFINITLY take out your lawn as it contains Dual and Atrazine! :nono:

LIBERTYLANDSCAPING
10-23-2009, 09:28 AM
OK, this makes at least a bit more sense... over applying or over lapping could seriously damage healthy turf.

From the conversation I had w/ Syngenta, the turf is not "damaged", just just looked bleached for a few weeks before it's color comes back. The freeking out customers & lco who have no idea what is going on could be a problem though:laugh:

Ric
10-23-2009, 10:06 AM
I was ONLY kidding!

Plus....you don't want to use LEXAR as it is a premix for corn....I said Collisto! :)

Lexar would DEFINITLY take out your lawn as it contains Dual and Atrazine! :nono:

RC

A quick search this morning found while CALLISTO (A not O) is registered in Fla., None of my local Agi suppliers are carrying it. Fla. is not a big Corn state. Therefore I couldn't get a price. Checking the MSDS, all product numbers and other statistic are Identical. I was curious as to the big price difference you talked about. Since Tenacity is being marketed to Golf Courses there is no secret that the price will be much higher. The Budgets of Golf Courses are very fat and Manufactures will take advantage of that.

Now Agi side prices are much lower priced for the same product with different product names. Some will try and hide Agi Products in Residential labeled jug. However the paper trail can get you a big fine or even loss of Certification. It was in fact the paper trail that caught a Big Pesticide company in Georgia for over use of Termidor. The paper trail started a follow up inspection that put them out of Business and took every CPO in that companies certification. Once the Suppliers Paper trail shows out of category purchases, the state will jump all over you and they do check suppliers records in my state. I also have a Agi Certification as well as a Commercial Certification, but even then the state wants to see my records.

BTW Modern Technology is working to help the State inspectors bust unlabeled usage. In the case of Termidor and the Georgia Company, The state used a Bird Dog to sniff out off label applications once the paper trail set off the alarm.

PS In the case of Tenacity or Callisto, once your competitor sees Whiting on a lawn they darn sure will be dropping the dime on you. In this economy fines are the new taxes. Don't over pay your fair share.

gregory
10-23-2009, 05:24 PM
ric you tried tenacity yet i would like to know how it works but don't want to drop that kind of coin and it not work that well then your stuck with it

ted putnam
10-23-2009, 07:42 PM
Looks like Callisto is about $669 for a 1 gal container at my favorite on-line chem supplier. Not sure how that compares in price to Tenacity and I haven't read the label to see just how far that 1 gal goes.

rcreech
10-23-2009, 07:50 PM
Ric,

I was just kidding as if one is going to break the law...you may as well do it right! :)

Lexar runs about $31/acre and I run a 3.5 qt rate/acre.

This premix is almost a silver bullet for no-till. We have found it to have no weakness's as this time.

Ric
10-23-2009, 08:24 PM
ric you tried tenacity yet i would like to know how it works but don't want to drop that kind of coin and it not work that well then your stuck with it

Karl

Tenacity is $ 747.07 a gallon, Add tax and your at $ 800.00. But it is labeled to cover 32 acres of St Augustine. At $ 25.00 an acre which is not bad at all, when it gets 45 different weeds including Crabgrass. BTW My Golf Course Buddies tell me it works great.

However if I got caught using it on residential turf I would lose my License. The whiting thing is like posting a huge sign saying catch me. You had better believe competitors will turn you in. I already have legal herbicides that do the job including selective control of Bermuda in St Augustine. So why take a chance??

BTW it was 90 degrees today again and this is almost November. Maybe in another two weeks it will be cool enough to use the Bermuda Grass killer I gave you with out hurting your St Augustine. But call me for directions before trying it.

gregory
10-23-2009, 08:53 PM
Karl

Tenacity is $ 747.07 a gallon, Add tax and your at $ 800.00. But it is labeled to cover 32 acres of St Augustine. At $ 25.00 an acre which is not bad at all, when it gets 45 different weeds including Crabgrass. BTW My Golf Course Buddies tell me it works great.

However if I got caught using it on residential turf I would lose my License. The whiting thing is like posting a huge sign saying catch me. You had better believe competitors will turn you in. I already have legal herbicides that do the job including selective control of Bermuda in St Augustine. So why take a chance??

BTW it was 90 degrees today again and this is almost November. Maybe in another two weeks it will be cool enough to use the Bermuda Grass killer I gave you with out hurting your St Augustine. But call me for directions before trying it.


if they made smaller sizes i would get some but not at that price like you said i already got some stuff that will kill what that kills and it is alot cheaper.....

i was going to call you last week b/c it was very cool last weekend but i was busy and i knew the cold front wasn't going to last but it did feel good it was 49 monday morning when i left for work i was thinking about wait until nov any way......