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View Full Version : Cemetery entrance - open to ideas


NightLightingFX
08-12-2008, 10:08 PM
I want to take a very basic approach to lighting this monument entrance. We want to have minimal maintenace issues - I really can't have any up lights in the grass for maintenace reasons. What I plan on doing is up lighting the 2 aspens and taking 4 mini wall washers (Uniques' Stellar) put them on a 6" extension and mount them above and aiming down on "City View Cemetery." What other ideas / approaches / input do you guys have?
~Ned

NightLightingFX
08-12-2008, 10:17 PM
I forgot to mention, I plan on drilling 4 holes through the rock some where between the text and the top of the retaining wall. Then mounting the wall washers with a 6" extension so the fixture won't be too close retaining wall and the light won't be too hot. I sure hope this isn't the same kind of REAL OLD rock they have in Canada, I may never be able to drill through it.
~Ned

NightLightingFX
08-12-2008, 10:21 PM
It would be nice to some how wall wash the whole retaining wall. But with grass all around it I really can't use a wall washer in the ground. I could possibly use a well light with a grate and up light the retaining wall but I don't think that would look very good.
~Ned

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
08-12-2008, 10:45 PM
I get your idea Ned but I think you will need more then a 6" extension on those fixtures to get enough spread. I would suggest 16" to 24" would be better to be able to read the signage without long shadows.

Using this technique you could opt for a BK SignStar or similar series of fixture, desiged for the job and then put linear spread lenses in front of the lamps.

Of course the easiest way would be 4 CopperMoon CM890 Floods mounted 36" out from the wall. You would just need to train the grass cutting crew that they were there. They stand up to whippersnippers pretty well!

Best of luck

NightLightingFX
08-12-2008, 11:02 PM
James, thanks for the input. I would rather light from the ground up using a wall washer. However, this is a municipal ran cemetery. We can't afford to have maintenace problems. This project needs to be very damage proof. Unless something can be ran over by a riding lawnmower. I don't think we use it in the ground.
~Ned

Lite4
08-13-2008, 12:25 AM
Ned, whatever you do you need to make sure it looks "spooky". Maybe some very close grazing under those walls.

klkanders
08-13-2008, 12:56 AM
Ned, Does this cemetery do much business at night? A drive by window?
You know why they put fences around them don't you? Because people are just dying to get in. :)
Seriously a combination of yours and James ideas sounds good. It looks to me like that spruce is too close and is and will continue to be a maintenance headache. I would get it removed. Take Care!
ps..... How are u going to get referrals from these deadbeats! haha :)

Keith

The Lighting Geek
08-13-2008, 01:08 AM
i would use apollo star with an infinity ring. The ring keeps the grass away from the grate and the brass grate can handle the abuse of equipment. anything sticking out from the wall is asking to be broken off.

Chris J
08-13-2008, 08:27 AM
i would use apollo star with an infinity ring. The ring keeps the grass away from the grate and the brass grate can handle the abuse of equipment. anything sticking out from the wall is asking to be broken off.

I was thinking the same thing. More maintenance issues are going to exist with the lights sticking out of the wall, especially if their sticking out 16-24". The riding lawn mower is going to be getting as close to the structure as he can, so I would go with the apollo star w/infinity ring like Tommy suggested.

Pro-Scapes
08-13-2008, 08:44 AM
The best thing to do here in my opinion is install a seasonal bed and mount the lights inside.

Any turf mounted lights will be a maint issue with city crews

NightScenes
08-13-2008, 09:00 AM
I agree with Billy, you need to have a bed there so you can put in some of those Coppermoon wash lights. This way the maintenance crews aren't knocking the fixtures off the wall or running them over and you won't end up with "V" lights on the sign.

Knock em dead Ned!!

David Gretzmier
08-13-2008, 09:57 AM
I agree with a bed down below, but not seasonal flower, permanant ground cover will be less maintenance, and you don't have the problem of larger flowers blocking your lights, or folks tilling the beds each year for flowers. Although I agree with james the effect will be way better if the sticks were 16-24" out from above, that WILL get bent or broken by maintenance crews. the stellers will not give you a good spread from 6" out.

There is a guy who posted his house on here a couple of weeks ago and he had a single stellar, mounted on the gutter above his garage, and i'm not too sure that 4 will do it at 6".

You could add a bed there, metal edging, mulch and some ground cover plants, as an add-on to your bid for around 650-950 bucks and give a much better light effect as well.

JoeyD
08-13-2008, 10:48 AM
Here you go Ned! Here is what the Stellars would be like..........

The stellar works well in this application. Great spread, long life, and a grat looking light. We do have risers in lengths from 12" all the way up to 36"

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb97/ulsjoeyd/lighting/StellarRiserDwnlight.jpg
http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb97/ulsjoeyd/lighting/StellerDwnlight.jpg



Obviously you have seen this picture before but fthis is the Apollo Star with Infinity Ring. It looks and works great in lawn and grass areas as well as hardscape.

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb97/ulsjoeyd/lighting/ApplicationShots006.jpg

Pro-Scapes
08-13-2008, 11:24 AM
Joey thats a great set up on the mailboxes. Very well done. In your overhead application the risers are fine Joey but for such a low application such as neds wall It would be a poor choice due to city crews and thier mowers. They would be snapped off in a week.

If you do decide to do a bed a ground cover would work too or something that wont grow over the lights. I often add small planting areas to get the prefect location for lights.

Lite4
08-13-2008, 01:00 PM
Ned,
I agree with a bed in front. 1. a color bed in front of an entry sign is going to look more inviting (not so sure that is a good thing with a cemetary), for those that are "Visting". 2. Yes, it will give you better overall placement and spread for your lights. Using direct front lighting from an appropriate distance will allow you to have a much smoother and even spread of light on the signage, not to mention you will also get some spillover on those aspens as a nice back drop. I agree with transplanting or removing that spruce. That was a bonehead place to plop a spruce. Those things get 50' wide. pull out a nice radius bed about 10-12' from the stone and plant with some seasonal color or groundcovers as was mentioned. That would be my take. Good luck and it's good to see you have some prospects for work.

NightLightingFX
08-13-2008, 01:08 PM
Great input guys,
I like the idea of suggesting putting a flower bed below the retaining wall. That is what I will suggest. If that isn't possible then I will have to mount the fixtures on the retaining wall. I like Joey's pic of the mail boxes. I like the idea of drilling a hole and sliding the extension in the hole. I was planing on drilling a small hole just to run the wire through and then using a mount to secure the fixture/extension to the retaining wall. Putting the extension in a hole will look better and be more secure. You guys were very helpful thanks again.
~Ned

JoeyD
08-13-2008, 01:19 PM
I am not trying to say what is the best way to do it here. I am simply trying to offer some photo applications for what was discussed and reccomended.

I like the idea of putting a planter bed in and using a wall wash like our Stellar or Starburst. Second best would be to uplight with a well light which if you use a Apollo Star or F225-SG you have the ability to set the fixture back a little ways and using the SS Gimbal ring you can angle the lamp to help cut down on the "V" pattern.

Here is a picture of those Stellars in use. Quite a bit of spread at 6" with those little guys. Remember we include a dimpled spread lens as well as a linear spread lens.

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb97/ulsjoeyd/lighting/StellerDwnlight2.jpg

JoeyD
08-13-2008, 01:30 PM
Here is another picture using Stellars set back. I was trying to find the closest wall i could to the sign you are lighting here Ned.

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb97/ulsjoeyd/lighting/KylesHouse.jpg

Lite4
08-13-2008, 04:05 PM
Hey Joey,
The spacing on the stellars on you last pic in front of the wall. What is the distance between them? around 6-7' or so apart? They look like they are about 18" or so out from the wall.

JoeyD
08-13-2008, 04:50 PM
I am guessing here Tim but I would say they are more like 3-4ft apart. 18" is probably a good estimate in deistance from the wall. I know these lights have frosted lenses in them as well.

klkanders
08-13-2008, 05:10 PM
Good idea on the bed out front........was that actually Billy's idea? :)
Nice pics Joey!

Keith

Mark B
08-13-2008, 07:11 PM
I agree with the bed out front. If you go with a seasonal bed just bury the wire deeep so they can till. Or just run the wire on the side of the bed.

Pro-Scapes
08-13-2008, 09:14 PM
I gotta get joey a pic of some water falls we lit with stellars so he wont think I am jumping on him.

I just couldnt imagine lighting a really low wall with risers sticking out of it.

I feel good... everyone likes my idea of a bed. If they dont want to maintain a bed then offer up a rock garden with a few ornamental grasses in em and you can place larger rocks to hide your washes.

Pro-Scapes
08-13-2008, 09:15 PM
Good idea on the bed out front........was that actually Billy's idea? :)
Nice pics Joey!

Keith

yeah every once in awhile I get a good idea in my noggin.

David Gretzmier
08-13-2008, 10:42 PM
I'm not too sure those stellars are out just 6" above the mailbox. I think the stellars are what, 4, 6" wide ? and that "riser" coming out of the wall is at least twice the width of the light. The effect looks great, I just think it is sticking out closer to 12". I think it mimics the uplighting effect when they are down below at 18" out.

NightScenes
08-14-2008, 08:55 AM
Also, those mailboxes have a lot of ambient lighting and the granite is very reflective. Add that to the fact that the mailboxes are silver and you can see why those stellars can illuminate them enough to put a key in a lock. The problem is, we have a sign that needs to really stand out and be recognized while someone is driving at highway speed. You will need brighter lights than 20 watt stellars and they need to cast an even light across the sign.

Nothing against Unique and their stellars because I use a boatload of them but I just don't think that they are the fixture for this job.

Don't give em hell Ned,

JoeyD
08-14-2008, 12:05 PM
Again guys, I am not taking any offense. You guys shouldnt feel like if you dont use Unique or if you disagree with the use of one of our products that I am going to think you dont like me personally.

I am just trying to offer up some pictures that coincide with some of the ideas. I do think if uplighting that the Stellars can adequatley light that sign, as you can see from that lit stacked stone retaining wall. I too agree that you may possibly create a potential hazard or problem by putting the fixtures out on a riser coming off the wall should they be using a commercial mower.

Frankly if there was the possibility of a planter bed and uplighting with a wall wash would be an option then I wouldnt use the Stellar anyway, I would go right to the Starburst and then decide if the supplied MR16 or the supplied 35w Astro Brite was the right lamp. I know I have some pcitures of some lit signs just like this one, using both Stellars and Starbursts I just cant seem to spot them in my files.

On that Picture of the mailboxes that is a 12" riser that is sticking out from the wall about 8". Those tiles are highly reflective as is the light colored concrete which does give the area more ambiant and reflected light. Not to mention the camera setting may be giving it a brighter look as well.

Lite4
08-14-2008, 01:00 PM
[QUOTE=JoeyD;2465904]

Frankly if there was the possibility of a planter bed and uplighting with a wall wash would be an option then I wouldnt use the Stellar anyway, I would go right to the Starburst and then decide if the supplied MR16 or the supplied 35w Astro Brite was the right lamp. I know I have some pcitures of some lit signs just like this one, using both Stellars and Starbursts I just cant seem to spot them in my files.

QUOTE]

Aren't we going about this backwards? Shouldn't we decide how much light in terms Footcandles and Lamberts (hope I got that right) we are going to need to adequately light this feature and then match that to the bulb that is necessary to achieve those results first before we decide which fixture is going to house our bulb/s?

JoeyD
08-14-2008, 01:57 PM
[QUOTE=JoeyD;2465904]

Frankly if there was the possibility of a planter bed and uplighting with a wall wash would be an option then I wouldnt use the Stellar anyway, I would go right to the Starburst and then decide if the supplied MR16 or the supplied 35w Astro Brite was the right lamp. I know I have some pcitures of some lit signs just like this one, using both Stellars and Starbursts I just cant seem to spot them in my files.

QUOTE]

Aren't we going about this backwards? Shouldn't we decide how much light in terms Footcandles and Lamberts (hope I got that right) we are going to need to adequately light this feature and then match that to the bulb that is necessary to achieve those results first before we decide which fixture is going to house our bulb/s?

I think Lumens was the term you were hunting for Tim. And yes that is the "designers" way of establishing a fixture. Know what kind of Lumen or Footcandles it will take to light the surface or is required to light the surface. At that point you will select the best lamp to do this. After that you will then select the best fixture to house that lamp.

Unfortunatley most of us hands on lighting designers dont always know what kind of foot candle or lumen output is going to be required. We kind of defer our decision to experience and decide how to light something based upon our own and others experiences. In most cases it is a process of trial and error, experimenting with lenses and beam spreads.

Lite4
08-14-2008, 02:22 PM
This is true. When you do it enough you pretty much know what it will take for most applications. There are those strange ones from time to time.

JoeyD
08-14-2008, 02:43 PM
In some cases, especially in commercial you will have minimum FC requirements or in some dark sky situations you will have max Lumens allowed requirements. So it is important to know or atleast be able to obtain this type of information.

We are currently working to have all of our fixtures measured for photometrics so that we dont have to rely on the lamp manufacturers ratings which always change once installed into a fixture.