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BigTree
08-13-2008, 04:31 PM
Subject: Root Intrusion of Subsurface Dripline

My application is a subsurface dripline irrigation of turf (with lawn trees) in a residential setting. The dripline will likely have the following: pressure compensating, ½ in nominal diameter, ½ gph nominal flow, 12” spacing of emitters, 12” spacing of rows, shallow 4” burial depth below turf, and manufacturer provided herbicide system to discourage root invasion. One tree that I am planning on using is a Red Maple (October Glory) that I am led to believe will develop a fair amount of fibrous shallow roots. I plan to water the turf on a near daily basis (as necessary) for a short time (as necessary) and water the trees (which are on the same system as the turf as the tree canopy covers nearly the entire yard) on a weekly (maybe more frequent) basis for a much longer time (as necessary to soak down to all of the tree roots). My concern is to ensure that the herbicide associated with minimizing subsurface emitter root invasion (by turf or tree) as provided by the manufacturer DOES NOT adversely impact my tree (i.e., damage my tree roots). Presently, I am looking at three particular products rated by manufacturer for turf applications with my observations; however, I am not knowledgeable in this field.
Netafim (www.netafimusa.com) – Techline CV with Techfilter. Netafim seems to claim that their emitter design (without the Techfilter) will resist root intrusion but when coupled with their Techfilter (which has discs impregnated with ‘trifluralin’ that need to be replaced periodically) it provides superior protection. Is the trifuralin really necessary? Netafim enjoys a great reputation and I have gotten a lot of positive feedback on this company regarding their dripline.
Toro (www.toro.com) – DL2000. Emitter is impregnated with the pre-emergent Treflan. No other chemical additions are necessary. The unit is trade marked as ROOTGUARD. Toro is a solid company.
DIG Corp (www.digcorp.com) – A1 Drip Line. With an emitter that is, “…. impregnated with Vinyzene, an antimicrobial additive to decrease fungal and bacterial growth within the dripper line …”; however, I am not sure if this is the same as a root inhibitor. The price of this drip line is very attractive, assuming that it can do the job.

Questions:
1. Does anyone have data to support that any of the above products will materially impact my tree roots? Or not impact them?
2. For the Netafim, is the Techfilter containing trifuralin really necessary? Or can I just use a regular filter and get sufficient root intrusion protection?
3. Any other product recommendations or suggestions?

Thanks. Jerry

Wet_Boots
08-13-2008, 04:37 PM
Forget root intrusion - maples will encircle the tubing and choke it.

irritation
08-13-2008, 04:41 PM
Forget root intrusion - maples will encircle the tubing and choke it.

...and that's not root intrusion? ;)

CAPT Stream Rotar
08-13-2008, 04:44 PM
sweet pics dude...

Wet_Boots
08-13-2008, 04:52 PM
Not really root intrusion, since the tiny roots might not enter the emitters, so long as the chemicals hold out. But it's kind of like thumbing your nose at an oncoming steamroller, on account of you're wearing a bulletproof vest.

lowvolumejeff
08-13-2008, 05:43 PM
Not really root intrusion, since the tiny roots might not enter the emitters, so long as the chemicals hold out. But it's kind of like thumbing your nose at an oncoming steamroller, on account of you're wearing a bulletproof vest.

Very nice analogy. Jeff

Waterit
08-13-2008, 05:52 PM
sweet pics dude...

I liked them, too. Maybe we should make it a policy not to reply to a post that has no pics attached:laugh:

CAPT Stream Rotar
08-13-2008, 06:50 PM
I liked them, too. Maybe we should make it a policy not to reply to a post that has no pics attached:laugh:



It should be a rule!
no more I think this or that...pics plz k!!!!

I demand satisfaction.

Tom Tom
08-13-2008, 06:50 PM
3. Any other product recommendations or suggestions?

Thanks. Jerry


Don't Plant a tree in the turf area.

OR

If you must plant the tree in the turf area, don't use netafim.

BigTree
08-13-2008, 06:56 PM
WOW! You have saved me headache and hard ache. What was so obvious to you never entered my mind - guess I could not see the trees for the drip.

Regards, Jerry.

CAPT Stream Rotar
08-13-2008, 07:05 PM
I see a ton of RB flood bubbler's on spray and rotor zones with this new company..

Although I whole 100% disagree with this practice, On fresh or re-designs jobs they do benefit certain trees for the first few years while the roots take place..I am going out on a limb here but we all know its not ice cream and puppy dogs in the trenches and while dealing with Joe HOMEOWNER and D%*khead builders... I have seen roots destroy inch and a quarter pipe in a drive way 40 feet to the closest tree. In the scope of things time and nature will always win....Dripping out trees is not always the right way to go..Up here when we water trees its a temporary fixture until the roots get established.

I really want to get into those cans that Hunter put out...Anyone have any information they want to share with those bad boys?


end blog

DanaMac
08-13-2008, 07:16 PM
Yes I would be more concerned with the larger roots choking from the outside as well.

I worked on one system the other day that was Netafim. Controller was set everyday, 11 start times with 3 minutes per zone. SUPPOSEDLY this is to allow rate of application to not exceed absorption rate or something to this effect. AND by running so frequently it will keep the roots from growing inside. I am just telling what I was told by landscaper who was told by the designer. I'm not sure I 100% agree with how this is set up. I have other Netafim systems set up with a lot less water usage than this. 11 times a day at 3 minutes is 33 minutes per day, everyday.

Mike Leary
08-13-2008, 07:26 PM
11 times a day at 3 minutes is 33 minutes per day, everyday.

Which is not enough water to get to the bottom of the root zone.:hammerhead:

DanaMac
08-13-2008, 07:31 PM
Which is not enough water to get to the bottom of the root zone.:hammerhead:

If it's running that much everyday, I believe it would get plenty deep. What kind of grass do you work with up there? we primarily have Kentucky bluegrass sod put down on every home here. Root zones are not extremely deep, or so it seems. We rarely deal with many other grasses.

Mike Leary
08-13-2008, 07:39 PM
If it's running that much everyday, I believe it would get plenty deep. What kind of grass do you work with up there?

How do you know? Got a moisture probe? We work with many varieties
of grass up here, the B.C. bud seems popular, not that I've tried it, ever.:rolleyes:

CAPT Stream Rotar
08-13-2008, 07:44 PM
ML is a strictly Indica kinda guy.

Mike Leary
08-13-2008, 07:56 PM
ML is a strictly Indica kinda guy.

"I have the simplest of tastes, I'm always satisfied with the best"

DanaMac
08-13-2008, 08:11 PM
How do you know? Got a moisture probe? We work with many varieties
of grass up here, the B.C. bud seems popular, not that I've tried it, ever.:rolleyes:

#1 no, don't have a probe. And probably wouldn't use it on a Netafim system as I would probably puncture a pipe and then be called back to fix the leak.

#2 you got me good on the "grass" comment :laugh:

BigTree
08-13-2008, 11:57 PM
Thanks again for everyone’s input. No reply is necessary UNLESS you see another bonehead beginner’s mistake. Regards, Jerry.

APPROACH: My irrigation approach (based in great part on this input from this website) will (now) be to use only surface irrigation (sprays for turf outside of the planter well border around the tree and drip within it) as there seems to be no method to assure that tree roots under turf would not (eventually) compromise a subsurface dripline. As the tree matures and tree roots extend outside the tree well and into the turf area, then the sprays will need to supply water for both the turf and for the tree roots beneath the turf. When the tree roots need a good watering, the sprays will then run longer (and possibly be cycled) than is needed to just irrigate the turf thereby allowing water to soak to the appropriate depth of the tree roots. As the canopy of the tree grows, then the ground cover within the turf area will need to be adjusted (e.g., changed) to function with less sun, as necessary

Kiril
08-14-2008, 12:16 AM
Which is not enough water to get to the bottom of the root zone.:hammerhead:

Not even close to enough information for you to make this assessment. :hammerhead:

The idea behind what Dana described has to do with soil water status around the emitter. If the soil stays constantly saturated around the emitter it greatly reduces the chance of root intrusion because roots generally will not grow in saturated soil.

As far as roots pinching lines, it can and does happen, even with PVC. If you set up your Netafim with a supply and exhaust header, it will minimize the chance that a pinched line will cause major failure of the system. You can also connect laterals along the run to further minimize potential problems due to pinched lines.

Personally I run PVC to multiple points (when feasible) for the entire area I am going to run Netafim. This allows me to have multiple feeds for the Netafim from a reliable source, and once again minimizes the effects of pinched lines, and also provides better flow and pressure distribution throughout the system.




......... Oh, and don't plant trees in turf. :)