Employee question about pay

[HealthTurf]

I just came back from vacation and left my employee in charge. He mowed 5 small residential accounts, blew 4 others...he had 10 hours and had 72 miles on his vehicle. Keep in mind all the equipment he's using is ours. I paid him $12 per hour plus .60 per mile for mileage around $160 cash. He was unhappy and demanded time and a half or about $17 per hour because he had to do the work "solo". My wife and I find this unbelievable and ridiculous...am I wrong here?:confused:

[1cooltreeguy]

No, hes crazy. IF you had a pattern of pay that was $12 per hour....Really hard to find good help....E

[HealthTurf]

thanks, cool tree guy, just what I thought I just got back from Kitty Hawk, NC

[MarcSmith]

5 small resis and a blow job for 10 hours.........thats average one hour per property.... thats seems kind of high itself.

Now I would say the fact that you put him in a "supervisory" type role with more responsibility, higher pay usually accompanies higher responsibility.

A crew leader makes more $$$ than a laborer, a manager makes more than a crew leader, ect....

[HealthTurf]

5 small resis and a blow job for 10 hours.........thats average one hour per property.... thats seems kind of high itself.

Now I would say the fact that you put him in a "supervisory" type role with more responsibility, higher pay usually accompanies higher responsibility.

A crew leader makes more $$$ than a laborer, a manager makes more than a crew leader, ect....

I sort of agree, though I think the $12 per hour he's been getting for being a basic laborer is a little above market here in NC. I'd split the difference with him at best...I don't ever mind compensating employees for using their vehicle or for work, but to demand something that didn't have a prior agreement is wrong....plus the only person he was managing was HIM..

[howierd3866]

where do you come up with 10 hours as being overtime...also at $12 I agree he being paid on the high in.. At 5 yards and a blow job (lol) who was he supervising..If he not liking it then the next time have him stay home and you both mow when you got back

[MarcSmith]

yes he was managing himself, but he was also managing YOUR business. Your paycheck, your food, your house payment, your vacation fund...

Id never ever expect an employee to use their vehicle to pull my trailer, ect. Even with 61 cents per mile. not worth it...

[AJ Lawnscapes]

Um...he's nuts....It's basically Proving himself to you... but that just leads you to want to give him more money the next time, or give him his own crew.

You're generous. I pay $8-8.50/hr, regardless, unless you're my brother, then it's $10 cause you actually work.

[Lawn-Sharks]

Not to side track your question, but how does it work out you paying him to use his truck and conducting your business???? Is his truck on your insurance??? I'm not asking just to be an a$$ I'm asking because i have heard of people doing this with employees, but never actually talked to someone that was doing it..

[HealthTurf]

No, he is basically a sub contractor, paid as as a contractor. He's otherwise a decent (not great, but decent) employee. He just feels that if he does ANYTHING out of his regular routine he should be handsomely rewarded, even a 1/4 mile trip to the local ACE Hardware he thinks he should get an extra $20. I've decided to run an ad and "test the waters" and try someone else. This guy is dependable and punctual, but his quality of work is that of an $8 an hour employee at best even though he gets paid $11, $12 when he's solo. It's about enough to make me sell this business, I'm just tired of all the headaches for 20+ years.....:sleeping:

[Groomer]

no brainer, take your vacations in your off season and run your business when you need to.

[soloscaperman]

What was the amount you made from those accounts.

I had a problem like this and my boss ******* about an hour behind and I told my boss I cleared all the brush and tree's and I only made $125when you made $1,400!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It was 105 degrees that day too. Greed was what I saw. Thats why I don't work for landscapers there all greedy. I run it my way now.

Also think: Insurance, Motor, Transmission, Gas, tires, brakes, making sure he doesn't hit anything, or if someone stole something, and he did it all himself with no helper. I hope you bought him a coffee and egg N cheese that morning.

[HL Landscape]

"$125when you made $1,400!!" -

"Insurance, Motor, Transmission, Gas, tires, brakes, making sure he doesn't hit anything, or if someone stole something"

Were you paying for these expenses when your boss was being greedy?

That $1,400$ is the money that your boss uses to keep you in a job.

[KGR landscapeing]

when you work for somebody eles you pull up to there shop 15 mins early dump your car or druck whatever. Get in there rig you except there pay. When you use your truck its diffrent. Just give the guy what he wants or meet him half way help that shows up and dosent hate your guts is hard to find. so you dont take taxes out then leave him with the bill come spring thats pretty lame too. just my thoughts i have been jerkd around a few times

[Sammy]

He got cash. No tax, no workman comp.

Do you 1099 him at the end of the year ?

[lawnwizards]

I just came back from vacation and left my employee in charge. He mowed 5 small residential accounts, blew 4 others...he had 10 hours and had 72 miles on his vehicle. Keep in mind all the equipment he's using is ours. I paid him $12 per hour plus .60 per mile for mileage around $160 cash. He was unhappy and demanded time and a half or about $17 per hour because he had to do the work "solo". My wife and I find this unbelievable and ridiculous...am I wrong here?:confused:

so you guys are arguing over a measley 10 bucks? i wish my headaches were that simple. just give the guy the 10 bucks and take your vacation in the off season. very simple.

[HealthTurf]

so you guys are arguing over a measly 10 bucks? i wish my headaches were that simple. just give the guy the 10 bucks and take your vacation in the off season. very simple.

No, it's not a measly $10, use your basic math skills from 4th grade, it's a measly $70....I've made my decision, it's not the first time he's acted like an ass about stuff like this, I run my business fairly and will not be "strong armed" by a bully of an employee, had he pulled this stunt at Brickman, Valleycrest, Bland, or one of the large national companies they'd have given him his walking papers. Back in March I was going through Chemo/Radiation for Cancer and sick as hell and all I heard from him when he worked alone was "gimmie more, gimme more" ***** about this, whine about that even though he was being paid extra for vehicle use and per hour. Any employee in this industry that demands almost $18 per hour for doing a handful of residentials is a MORON and .60 per mile for vehicle use is more than fair. We've bought him numerous dinners, gifts for holidays, paid him when there really wasn't much to do, and more, etc trying to be nice and take care of him. It just proves my point if you treat someone nice, they will inevitably screw you one way or another. Thanks for the 5 or 6 good replies I got to this thread......he's been sent walking:waving:

[lawnwizards]

I just came back from vacation and left my employee in charge. He mowed 5 small residential accounts, blew 4 others...he had 10 hours and had 72 miles on his vehicle. Keep in mind all the equipment he's using is ours. I paid him $12 per hour plus .60 per mile for mileage around $160 cash. He was unhappy and demanded time and a half or about $17 per hour because he had to do the work "solo". My wife and I find this unbelievable and ridiculous...am I wrong here?:confused:

lets see here. 10 hours times $17 per hour = 170. correct? maybe you need to brush up on your skills, genius.

[1MajorTom]

lets see here. 10 hours times $17 per hour = 170. correct? maybe you need to brush up on your skills, genius.
plus mileage maybe?

[KGR landscapeing]

lets see here. 10 hours times $17 per hour = 170. correct? maybe you need to brush up on your skills, genius.

since both of u seem to be missing the point he wantd 170 for the days work plus gas which i dont see as to unreasonable what its like 210 for a day

[MarcSmith]

regular pay was 12, he wanted 17. for a difference of 5 per hour or $50 difference over ten hours. small price to pay for some running your business and not screwing up your equipment, stealing your customers, stealing work.

and i still don't get the whole "mileage" thing. if you are willing to let some one use his/her own vehicle to tow your equipment around, thats pretty stupid. And sorry but 61 cents mile isn't squat. truck rental/mileage would have set you back at least a cool hundred. you got off easy.

[KGR landscapeing]

regular pay was 12, he wanted 17. for a difference of 5 per hour or $50 difference over ten hours. small price to pay for some running your business and not screwing up your equipment, stealing your customers, stealing work.

and i still don't get the whole "mileage" thing. if you are willing to let some one use his/her own vehicle to tow your equipment around, thats pretty stupid. And sorry but 61 cents mile isn't squat. truck rental/mileage would have set you back at least a cool hundred. you got off easy.

yup yup but nooooooooo hes gonna fire him but hey its your company you do with it as you like. You say hes only worth 8 then why do u keep him around i guess

[HealthTurf]

lets see here. 10 hours times $17 per hour = 170. correct? maybe you need to brush up on your skills, genius.

$12 per hour normal rate of pay for "solo" work=$18 per hour "time and a half" plus $40 for mileage=$160 which is what he was paid...it's a $60 difference...it's not just the $ it's the attitude he has....he thinks because he works "solo" he should get more per hour even though he only did $450 worth of revenue....and the reason we have kept him is even though his work isn't up to $12 an hour standards he is reliable which in my area is hard to find in this industry...case closed...replaced him, new guy starts Monday---bye!

[ALC-GregH]

have fun "training" the new guy. Better hope he doesn't cost you money in the process. and you better hope he'll show up on time and be reliable, otherwise, your in worse shape then before.

You say his work is $8hr work but pay him $12. Why not spend more time with him and try to refine his work habits? Now you have to start over again, the money you THOUGHT you would save can very well go right out the window with the new guy.

[ALC-GregH]

One other thing I was wondering, do the guys that have employee's make them sign a paper stating that they (employee) can't do the same work as your company or otherwise take customers from you if they open their own company?

[HealthTurf]

One other thing I was wondering, do the guys that have employee's make them sign a paper stating that they (employee) can't do the same work as your company or otherwise take customers from you if they open their own company?

We have all employees sign a "non compete" agreement at the time of hire, although some attorneys debate it's enforceability...

[soloscaperman]

I would sit down with him and discuss it. You should of made an agreement that day. Tell him you got people waiting to take his spot for the money your paying him.Remind him about the economy is bad. Tell him your going into a rough time.Tell him his weak spots and how to improve. Tell him you will give him a raise if he proves what he has.

I had a friend that was like that well his family are straight from poland but you can't have workers that bitc* about I want this or I want more. Thats your job to say that.

[bam]

not sure if its the way you're coming across, or your language, but some things to keep in mind:

an employee is not a subcontractor

an employee would use your equipment and trucks, be covered under your insurance, be covered by workers comp. etc.

A legit sub would provide you proof of insurance, etc and would receive a 1099 at the end of the year. A sub would provide ALL there own equipment.

Giving them cash is just avoiding the IRS and bucking the system.

It seems like your hassle would be alot less if you went one way or the other with the employee or sub. Part of your problem appears from your post that you're picking the best of both worlds, what you're hoping will workbest for you.

Either train the "employee", establish a business plan, or "fire" the person.

It seems like you are expecting to earn a set amount of money for the day or jobs, yet this guy really stepped up and covered you while you were on vacation. and again, either you don't understand or follow legit business practice in the first place. so now according to you, he is taking advantage of you.?

Either run solo and maintain less jobs, or really understand what it is going to cost you to run a successful business. Don't get me wrong, its nice that you're paying the guys mileage, and buying him meals, etc., but is that not all part of your overheads?

And as far as "overtime", the way I understand OT is that you work over 40 hours a week, in some jobs you're entitled to time and a half, again depending on DOL and your companies description of the job. Never really heard someone use the term "OT" for wanting $16 vs. 12 for having more responsibility.

[HealthTurf]

I think most people are missing the point here, it's not just the matter of a few bucks, it's an arrogant, demanding, disrespectful attitude. This guy has sassed my wife, myself, and a neighbor when all this took place. It's the 3rd time something like this has taken place. He's not a easily "trainable" person, he knows more than you and will tell you so in an instant. As far as business practices go I've been here 21 years, no more explanation needed, that speaks for itself!....the reason he's paid as a sub is he has a handful of lawns he mows for himself & HE requested to be paid that way because when he started with us it was to be a fairly short term agreement. Other landscapers in my area agree, let him go. Seems most of he folks here on this board favor the employee in most situations..that's my last comment on the subject, I've hired a new, experienced, guy that has a great attitude and is highly recommended by a former great employee...new day, new beginning....later on guys, thanks for the replies...:)

[HL Landscape]

If they don't respect you they don't respect your business. Don't let the door hit em in the arse.

[PROCUT1]

I know the feeling youre having.

i have since learned that a business is a Dictatorship...Not a democracy.

Define the position, define the pay...And thats it....Like it or leave.

Youre also playing with fire with the "subcontractor" thing.

Been there, done that, got the fines, paid the Irs monthly for years to get out of it.

[topsites]

All you have to do is check into the exact legal definition
of what does and does not constitute overtime, then
explain this kindly to your employee.

[topsites]

Matter of fact:

http://www.dol.gov/compliance/guide/minwage.htm
(Yes this covers overtime, also any other questions
regarding wage should be answered here).

[Need_Advice]

I just came back from vacation and left my employee in charge. He mowed 5 small residential accounts, blew 4 others...he had 10 hours and had 72 miles on his vehicle. Keep in mind all the equipment he's using is ours. I paid him $12 per hour plus .60 per mile for mileage around $160 cash. He was unhappy and demanded time and a half or about $17 per hour because he had to do the work "solo". My wife and I find this unbelievable and ridiculous...am I wrong here?:confused:

How is 10 hours anywhere near overtime?
That is ridiculus. you are completely right

[Az Gardener]

As far as business practices go I've been here 21 years, no more explanation needed, that speaks for itself!

It speaks volumes

[MarcSmith]

First off we have several issues. some related some not.

1. you have a laborer who was asked to do the work of crew leader and not compensated as such. (employer not respecting his employee)
2. employee getting an attitude for not getting paid what he though he was worth for being a crew leader (employee not respecting employer)
3. Employee being paid under theh table as a sub when in fact he is not a sub but an employee. (both not respecting the laws of the USA)


if you are going to run an illegal operation (which you are buy paying under teh table), then you really can't btch about your employee. You are setting the example for them to follow. They figure you are breaking the rules, so why can't they.

enjoy.

Oh...soloscaper... making 140 bucks while you employer makes 1400 is a way of life. your employer is the one who owns the equipment, takes the risks of bidding jobs, taking jobs, insurance, ect. its only fitting that the employer gets the lions share of the gross income. But it sounds like now you are on your own, and you will realize this. Just make sure you when you get a big job you give your employee(if you ever have any) 50% of the gross...

[PORTER 05]

i have to say , finf hate my emplyees, its bad to say but they suck, they do GREEEAT work, they realy do but they suck, they make fun of me tell me im cheap, i get the whole " i only made $100 today you made $1000" thing all the time, ya and do you pay for 3 trucks / trailer / thousands in equitpment, i feel you pain man, i feel you pain.

[PROCUT1]

See...People on the forum...

When you ask how others are able to work so much cheaper than you......

Its because many break the law and that gives them an unfair advantage.

If you have an employee and hes legal....At $10 an hour, with taxes, comp, and insurance he is going to cost you $16 an hour.

A guy like this......Its just $10.

So if you put 2 guys in a truck your payroll is $32 an hour for them to take home that $10.

His payroll is just $20 an hour.

So he can bill out $12 an hour less than you and still make the same money you are.

Your crew does 2 lawns in a hour and you have to charge $35 each.

Well he can do those 2 lawns for $30 each and still make more money than you.

Now if he has no problem avoiding payroll taxes...He probably has no problem evading sales tax if its applicable in his state.

If it were here...He can charge his customer $30 cash.

I would be charging $35 plus collecting sales tax of 8.125%

So my bill to the customer would be $37.84

His bill would be $30

He would make more money off that job.

The customer would rather pay $30 than 37.84....So he would get the customer.

Then I can come on lawnsite and make a post...."How do these lowballer work so cheap?"

Meanwhile hes laughing because hes putting more money in his pocket than I am.

Thats how its done

[Steiner]

You should have discussed it with him before you left and left nothing to chance. My family always says you can always pay more in wages but its impossible to pay a person less.

[soloscaperman]

I felt insulted when he whined about he didn't make any money but he made $1400 and I made about $100 when he wasn't even there most of the time. He gave me a chainsaw, clippers, weedwacker,and some other small tools. But he stayed home because of a hangover. Then he says you took a hour longer!!!
Some of you guys don't understand that workers are humans also. You may know how to work with the customers but how about your workers. I hope that the guys that are like that, that your worker leaves you when you need them the most, and chances are your gonna run to there house in 5 min on your knee's. Don't be greedy. AND CHANCES ARE YOUR THE ONES CRYIN ABOUT LOW BALLERS BUT THE REALITY IS THAT YOU ARE GREEDY. I hate the cocky ones. The spoiled ones that had there mommy and daddy help them. Be a man.

P.S.The job was to knock down heavy brush around the whole border of the yard. And I don't know about you but you can't predict how much time will exactly take to finish that specific job unless you are rain man.I'm not here to make millions but to make customers and people like me and to be
remembered a good man and have enough money so I'm happy.

[MarcSmith]

solo

I'm plenty chilled. Ive been on the short end of pay scales often. Even as being a manager. You think its bad as an laborer to get shafted. try getting a 5% (of gross sales)bonus pulled based on a technicality. I had hit all my production sales goals. but when they calculated the totals up...they failed to mention that sales tax was not counted. ended up falling $200 bucks short when they recalculated and loosing a 8000 bonus. My only consolation was that I was not the only getting screwed.

I treated my employee's right...and I still do...My current employees are union, so I don't get any say in their pay. But I will say that the top performers get a lot more leeway in regards to vacations/break, and other places were I can "reward".

When i was solo, I was paying my employees 8-10 an hour back in the mid 90's., they had holidays, they had vacations, and they were employed year round... Were there days when i did not work. You bet. Boss has that right. Were there days when I gave the sht work to my employee's, you bet. Where there days that I worked my employees harder than others. Yup. Where there days when I worked harder than my employee's absolutely.
Where there nights when I was working until late gettingthe invoices out for 300 customers, working payroll, and making sure all the taxes were paid sot he employee had a job to come back to. Yup.

Was I greedy, you bet. If I wanted to make 12-13 buck an hour working for a theme park as a spray tech for the rest of my life I could have. but most of us got into business for ourselves because we were greedy. Weather we wanted more money, better quality of life, control over the operation...or some other reason. Greed has something to do with it.

I took my current job because I was greedy. Not for the salary, but the tuition benefits(75% off GU tuition for all family members), vacation/holiday (35 days), and quality of life (I now work only about 50 hours per week) which means I spend more time with my family, and the fact I wanted a challenge

If you are not a greedy, stingy, penny pinching SOB, at least on some level, then you won't survive. ultimately business is about the numbers, and numbers don't lie.

You were greedy, you wanted a piece of the pie, so you went out on your own...Nothing wrong with that...Just remember at some point you will have/need full time employees, then you get to be on the giving end....

[DanaMac]

#1 - you keep referring to him as an employee - he is not, and $12 an hour as a sub seems WAY cheap

#2 - he sounds like an arrogant punk and you did the right thing by cutting ties

[B_gerrits]

I think most people are missing the point here, it's not just the matter of a few bucks, it's an arrogant, demanding, disrespectful attitude. This guy has sassed my wife, myself, and a neighbor when all this took place. It's the 3rd time something like this has taken place. He's not a easily "trainable" person, he knows more than you and will tell you so in an instant. As far as business practices go I've been here 21 years, no more explanation needed, that speaks for itself!....the reason he's paid as a sub is he has a handful of lawns he mows for himself & HE requested to be paid that way because when he started with us it was to be a fairly short term agreement. Other landscapers in my area agree, let him go. Seems most of he folks here on this board favor the employee in most situations..that's my last comment on the subject, I've hired a new, experienced, guy that has a great attitude and is highly recommended by a former great employee...new day, new beginning....later on guys, thanks for the replies...:)

Not to rain on your parade this guy is not a sub at least not in this state, Im not trying to be a know it all but my buddy just got busted for that it costed him 10 grand. To be a sub at least in this state the sub must use his own equip also you would not be allowed to work on the job he has to have all his own employees. A sub also has the right to tell you his price just like you have the right to quote your rate to the cust. All I am saying is dont try to make employees sub contractors if they use your equip they are employees if you are on the job site with them they are employees, If you try this and get caught you will pay plenty just ask my buddy.

[B_gerrits]

#1 - you keep referring to him as an employee - he is not, and $12 an hour as a sub seems WAY cheap

#2 - he sounds like an arrogant punk and you did the right thing by cutting ties

Actually he was an employee and hopefully the guy had workers comp or if he gets caught he will be in deep do do, probaly would be in trouble paying him cash and not paying taxes on him.

[STIHL GUY]

yea i think if you agreed on $12 an hour he is crazy for wanting more

[Mike's LawnCare Landscape]

okok Im still stuk on the I maid $1400 on a job and the help only maid $100
LOL
Thats all fine and danndy If the help worked his (you know what off ) give him a little extra Thats fine . But it goes both ways, what if I bid a job . Lets say $500 LOL and it took 2 days and the help makes $300 for there hr . Hell I only made $200 . Is the help going to help you out there and spilt it even with you !! NOPE they will not .

So for all the labors/Helpers out there if you boss made more then you on a job. Deal with it and stop the crying, unless you are willing to take the loss on a bad job .(PS and yes it happens some times)

all so if my help is only worth $8 hr I get ride of them.

[soloscaperman]

Buddy I don't care about the $100 but the fact that he was cryin over $10-11 bucks because I was off one hour even though I made him$1400. No one could of done it that quick and good.

So your sayin if you sent a worker out and you stayed home from a hangover and played Sony 3 and he did all that work would you really cry over $10 from the $1400??? If so I hope your workers screw you over by leaving your truck and equipment in a unsafe place and walk away, and take some courses for how to deal with people. What im sayin is that be grateful your worker helps you and makes you money. Its not fun and very tiring. They are wasting there years with you. Make it good and be happy because its hard to find workers that will do that work for the price. Mike Don't be a hero and make me look bad because we all know what the answer is.

[Mike's LawnCare Landscape]

First Off .
Why are you working for a drunk and wasting (as you said all your years??)
2nd I was not pointing you out of the crowd
3rd im on the job with my help %99 of the time
4th if You are that good of a help then leave the drunk ( as you say that he is )
I know That there a tons of LCO that are looking for good help
sorry if I ticked you off But im tired of help hitting me up thinking that they should make 1/2 of the Bid !!

[soloscaperman]

I know you hate people that want half the bid but that wasn't the problem.
I person that gets half of the bid is if there was a second owner then you split it in half.

I left him along time ago. By the way he isn't really a drunk, just a bitc*

[powerstoke]

If he is a subcontractor he must have his own business name and insurance. If he doesn't you are the one that will have to pay for any damages or losses to your clients.