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americanlawn
08-14-2008, 09:18 PM
....Traditionally, most LCO's put down 1 - 1 1/2 pounds of N for the "winterizer" app. This gives early green-up and helps turf to become thicker in early spring (giving it a head start before weeds can invade).

Been checking "natural-organic" blends that offer up to only 16% N :confused:. Does this mean we have to apply 7 to 9 pounds per 1000 sq ft? :confused: If that's the case, my guys are gunna be really tired at the end of each day.....pushing spreaders with all that weight up & down hills, etc. :hammerhead:

What are your thoughts?

rscvp, thanks

dishboy
08-15-2008, 01:56 AM
Your right , you have to pay if you want to play.

treegal1
08-15-2008, 09:13 AM
wow shocking, standard mind set for a chem guy both of you, I was under the impression that we had built the soil and added OM and humates and all that good stuff to the soil in advance!!! that way it did not need a little N fix so that it can wake up??? most organic lawn guys I have talked to add some HERD food and some fulvic and humic acid to tie up there excess N and keep the snow mold down! really the whole point of organic land care and sustainable was lost with you fellows. all you did was use the synthetic ferts to grow corn and soy to add to the lawns, then instead of adding fert you can market and add some NATURAL fert just to make the customer feel good and line your pockets. and a natural-organic blend whats that any ways, standard fert with some more happy label and feel good BS message about how we try to save the earth with out the use or less use of chems and fert, thats so lame, after you start to add the transport and fuel and handling and CORN, you did more damage than good and should just use the same old fert that evey other LCO does.


this I got to hear from the fert guys ??? WHY DOES IT HURT THE EARTH TO USE ORGANIC BASED FERT BASED ON THE CALORIE INPUT TO YIELD RATIO????

treegal1
08-15-2008, 09:19 AM
....Traditionally, most LCO's put down 1 - 1 1/2 pounds of N for the "winterizer" app. This gives early green-up and helps turf to become thicker in early spring (giving it a head start before weeds can invade).

Been checking "natural-organic" blends that offer up to only 16% N :confused:. Does this mean we have to apply 7 to 9 pounds per 1000 sq ft? :confused: If that's the case, my guys are gunna be really tired at the end of each day.....pushing spreaders with all that weight up & down hills, etc. :hammerhead:

What are your thoughts?

rscvp, thanksRe work your math there sport, maybe take a applicators refresh course???

Smallaxe
08-15-2008, 09:40 AM
The mindset is different. The fall is when the grass is preparing for winter by storing as many carbohydrates in its system as possible. These carbs are now ready to be used as spring advances, and greens up as nice looking as it probably will for the rest of the season.

Up here as the ground thaws and warms - the micro-herd begins its activity and starts to feed the plant as the plant feeds the herd.

This is basically the natural cycle of turf. NPK in the early spring tends to bypass the normal wake up and provokes an unnatural push of leaf growth.

I will personally be spreading a little bit of Milorganite on my lawns this fall, just incase we lost some nutrient value during the summer.

dishboy
08-15-2008, 09:44 AM
wow shocking, standard mind set for a chem guy both of you, I was under the impression that we had built the soil and added OM and humates and all that good stuff to the soil in advance!!! that way it did not need a little N fix so that it can wake up??? most organic lawn guys I have talked to add some HERD food and some fulvic and humic acid to tie up there excess N and keep the snow mold down! really the whole point of organic land care and sustainable was lost with you fellows. all you did was use the synthetic ferts to grow corn and soy to add to the lawns, then instead of adding fert you can market and add some NATURAL fert just to make the customer feel good and line your pockets. and a natural-organic blend whats that any ways, standard fert with some more happy label and feel good BS message about how we try to save the earth with out the use or less use of chems and fert, thats so lame, after you start to add the transport and fuel and handling and CORN, you did more damage than good and should just use the same old fert that evey other LCO does.



this I got to hear from the fert guys ??? WHY DOES IT HURT THE EARTH TO USE ORGANIC BASED FERT BASED ON THE CALORIE INPUT TO YIELD RATIO????


Slow down there TURBO! You make some pretty big assumptions . Where in my post did I mention my source of N
or describe my program. My program builds the soil without syn fertilizers.I agreed that fall is the time to throw N. Do you jump on the guys case who bomb the yards with CCM in the spring? Before you post your self righteous crap lets go over your operation. Are your diesel engines 2008 or newer? If not do you realize how much you are polluting the air.......
BTW I am not throwing the N to "wake up" the turf.

treegal1
08-15-2008, 09:47 AM
The mindset is different. NPK in the early spring tends to bypass the normal wake up and provokes an unnatural push of leaf growth.

I will personally be spreading a little bit of Milorganite on my lawns this fall, just incase we lost some nutrient value during the summer. not 7-9 lbs per k of 19% N???

treegal1
08-15-2008, 09:53 AM
Slow down there TURBO! You make some pretty big assumptions . Where in my post did I mention my source of N
or describe my program. My program builds the soil without syn fertilizers.I agreed that fall is the time to throw N. Do you jump on the guys case who bomb the yards with CCM in the spring? Before you post your self righteous crap lets go over your operation. Are your diesel engines 2008 or newer? If not do you realize how much you are polluting the air.......
BTW I am not throwing the N to "wake up" the turf.we dont need new motors we run svo and biofuels that we are growing algae to produce, and yes we think corn is real loser, and as far as i am concerned, pay to play is for,,,, lets just say I like to get paid for getting in the game!!!!!

treegal1
08-15-2008, 09:57 AM
oh also DISHBOY, and I just love that, we have been making char out of waste and putting almost 60 tons of carbon back into our lawns every quarter, thats about 240 for the year, maybe you should get in your 2008 and get to see a real 0 input operation before you get started !!!!

phasthound
08-15-2008, 10:01 AM
....Traditionally, most LCO's put down 1 - 1 1/2 pounds of N for the "winterizer" app. This gives early green-up and helps turf to become thicker in early spring (giving it a head start before weeds can invade).

Been checking "natural-organic" blends that offer up to only 16% N :confused:. Does this mean we have to apply 7 to 9 pounds per 1000 sq ft? :confused: If that's the case, my guys are gunna be really tired at the end of each day.....pushing spreaders with all that weight up & down hills, etc. :hammerhead:

What are your thoughts?

rscvp, thanks

Hi Larry,

The application rate for Nutrients PLUS 16-2-3 is 3-6lbs/1000. Recommended rate of 4.3lb/1000 will cover 11,400 sq ft. This will provide 0.7 lb N/1000 sq ft. We recommend that in the second year the rate drops to 3.1lb/1000 sq ft. giving you 16,000 ft of coverage at 0.5 lb N/1000 sq ft.

Nutrients PLUS Screamin' Green 16-2-3 is by far our best seller because it works. :waving:

Smallaxe
08-15-2008, 10:24 AM
not 7-9 lbs per k of 19% N???

:laugh: Not even if requestted....

treegal1
08-15-2008, 10:59 AM
:laugh: Not even if requestted....well maybe if they ask, I could just take a couple laps around my 2008 and kiss my money and be off the hook scott free......WTF are some of these guys...... never mind, I still have to sleep at night, knowing that there is 7-9 lbs of ??? floating in my river and that's not me, 3lbs per year, that's not me, add if it starts to fall, after a little test...........fall, after 6 top dresses a year, lololol,ROFL \, this thread digressed into a comedy

Smallaxe
08-16-2008, 10:57 AM
It is time for a new dump truck, perhaps I could do 3lbs/K -twice- this fall.
How many tons of corn for a 9k lawn??? :)

The lawns I am most concerned about this year are the Chemlawn controlled.

ted putnam
08-17-2008, 01:12 AM
I think what Larry was referring to was the "bridge" product phasthound referred to(16-2-3.) Being in more Northern climates, certainly not Florida and not here in Arkansas, he is dealing with Cool season turfgrass and that is a whole different ball game! Here, we apply very little if any N to turfgrass as part of our "winterizer". However, our growing season is longer and during the growing season, the amount of N applied is a real concern for sustained appearance. Let's face the facts.The customer pays for a nice looking lawn. It has to look nice and remain looking nice for a reasonable amount of time for our customer to remain "our" customer,otherwise they'll find someone else. I don't have a huge compost heap or a steady supply of sewage sludge at hand. And even if I did, at this point, I'm not convinced that either would keep my business afloat. What I do know is that I am willing to, and can change the way I operate in order for my business to survive and if it helps keep things "green", it's that much better.

treegal1
08-17-2008, 09:52 AM
hey AXE, ted here sounds like one of those chem guys, maybe even a trugreen guy, don't try and convince him this works.LOLOL:laugh:wait let me take one more guess, he has been a chem guy since the 1980'S.:waving::laugh::laugh:

Smallaxe
08-17-2008, 10:51 AM
I think what Larry was referring to was the "bridge" product phasthound referred to(16-2-3.) Being in more Northern climates, certainly not Florida and not here in Arkansas, he is dealing with Cool season turfgrass and that is a whole different ball game! Here, we apply very little if any N to turfgrass as part of our "winterizer". However, our growing season is longer and during the growing season, the amount of N applied is a real concern for sustained appearance. Let's face the facts.The customer pays for a nice looking lawn. It has to look nice and remain looking nice for a reasonable amount of time for our customer to remain "our" customer,otherwise they'll find someone else. I don't have a huge compost heap or a steady supply of sewage sludge at hand. And even if I did, at this point, I'm not convinced that either would keep my business afloat. What I do know is that I am willing to, and can change the way I operate in order for my business to survive and if it helps keep things "green", it's that much better.

We do have a short growing season and the study of what turf needs for winters has been an ongoing one.
My customers pay for great looking lawns as well. N is not an issue - if the soil is rich and healthy.

It doesn't take a huge compost pile to make it that way. Leave the clippings on the lawn and manage water properly and the soil will do better without NPK particularily during summer heat.

Right now my unirrigated lawns are looking rough and it is because of the heat/drought conditions and has nothing to do with NPK needs. When cool season grasses recieve cool weather and moisture - they will once again start taking in food and look as green and lush as their genetic material allows. W/out any apps from me. All I can do right now for those lawns is NOT mow, and run hoses.

Smallaxe
08-17-2008, 10:53 AM
hey AXE, ted here sounds like one of those chem guys, maybe even a trugreen guy, don't try and convince him this works.LOLOL:laugh:wait let me take one more guess, he has been a chem guy since the 1980'S.:waving::laugh::laugh:

What made you think - 'since the 1980s'? :)

treegal1
08-17-2008, 11:07 AM
just a hunch, maybe 1987 or 88, he almost sounds like Patrick Swayze. not now but in the old movies......

Smallaxe
08-17-2008, 11:45 AM
just a hunch, maybe 1987 or 88, he almost sounds like Patrick Swayze. not now but in the old movies......

:laugh: That is cool. I suppose that makes me Walter Brennan :waving: :laugh:

treegal1
08-17-2008, 12:24 PM
yeah or Gary Cooper........:laugh::laugh::laugh:

JDUtah
08-17-2008, 12:45 PM
Maybe he is coming form the chemical world, but to me Ted's post shows that he is willing to change if he can see it will still be profitable. And the fact that AmericanLawn and Ted are in this forum asking questions is a good thing. Hopefully he doesn't take offense to what was said, and keeps reading and asking questions.

I'm not sure I understand the logic of sarcasm here, you guys want to push the organic mindset, then when someone actually comes over with legitimate questions they still get called apart? To me, that's not the best way to promote your cause.

Do you know him or something?

NattyLawn
08-17-2008, 12:54 PM
hey AXE, ted here sounds like one of those chem guys, maybe even a trugreen guy, don't try and convince him this works.LOLOL:laugh:wait let me take one more guess, he has been a chem guy since the 1980'S.:waving::laugh::laugh:

Is that really necessary? If you've ever read the chemcial side of the site, ted putnam is one of the more respected posters. For you to make that generalization is stupid. Look, fert prices are going through the roof and the fact that ted and amercianlawn are looking for alternatives is good for the industry. I don't know Ted's business, but american 3k customers! You're not going to change things overnight, and this is a good first step imo.

Are far as age goes, not many people that you consider young own and run successful businesses.

Nice post Utah. Saw it after mine.

treegal1
08-17-2008, 01:29 PM
sorry, must have forgot to put the smiles there, what ever. thats ok so I burned my bridge over the river organic. me and Axe were being silly, ted just poked in and said "I don't have a huge compost heap or a steady supply of sewage sludge at hand. And even if I did, at this point, I'm not convinced that either would keep my business afloat." sorry to hear that, I was just trying to be funny and not point out the fact that there are failing chem co's every place around. and to top it off the pat S, comment was a complement, hes cool like in the old patS movies where he gets the chick and saves the day!!! hope I did not offend Axe with being compared to gary, another of my heroes....

quiet
08-17-2008, 01:31 PM
Is that really necessary? If you've ever read the chemcial side of the site, ted putnam is one of the more respected posters. For you to make that generalization is stupid. Look, fert prices are going through the roof and the fact that ted and amercianlawn are looking for alternatives is good for the industry. I don't know Ted's business, but american 3k customers! You're not going to change things overnight, and this is a good first step imo.

Are far as age goes, not many people that you consider young own and run successful businesses.

Nice post Utah. Saw it after mine.

Right there with you, Natty. Ted Putnam is respected and knowledgeable, as well as responsible. Some of us in the "in between category - users of only synthetic/organic, low salt, soil enhancing fertilizers" - occasionally get a little bent about the hard line stance here.

Some southern turfgrasses have very high N requirements. Dealing with hybrid bermuda's nutritional requirements, severe heat, and less than optimum soil conditions make customer satisfaction a challenge. Each region has unique problems to deal with.

A drought in FL isn't the same as a drought in TX. 49 days over 100 so far this summer. Got our first rain since May 14 on Tuesday. . . 0.41"

Using all the knowledge and tools available to you will make for a good business model, as well as responsible stewardship.

treegal1
08-17-2008, 01:50 PM
If you've ever read the chemcial side of the site, ted putnam is one of the more respected posters. For you to make that generalization is stupid. maybe I missed him in there when I was being call a Bi--- and other wonderful names, respected post in the chem side, nasty bunch over there, don't know em all by name, don't care to. the hostile mess there is shocking. so I poked some fun, just in a funny way not trying to get any one down. so is he a chem guy since the 80'S is that what this is about..............I mean really, I see these big words like natural and organic and sustainable just tossed around here, next to bridge and other hidden words. tell me strait is this an organic forum or the less use forum, because I see less and less organics and more gleaning from an idea, that then gets packaged and sold from the same bag and with the same chemicals that this idea shunned from the start. never mind the local aspects of doing this(in my mind) correctly. whats the idea any way, tell me so I know if I am wasting my time and efforts here, is there a change in the works or did we just decide to switch bags and marketing. eh who am I kidding this is a marketing site, no room for ideas here, I out.....

ted putnam
08-17-2008, 02:25 PM
Thanks for the kind words guys. I got exactly what I expected to get from her. Anything less, and I would have been disappointed in what I was already 99% sure I was going to hear from her. I'm sure it's not the first time she's burned the bridge over the river "organic", and it won't be the last. I will admit, I know almost nothing about the organic way of doing things, but like I said in my previous post, I am willing to change for the betterment of my business. I am open to new ideas and products, if and when they work. I have been looking at an organic product from a company called Aggrand. It is a Fish emulsion/Kelp extract. Looks like it's got lot's of good stuff in it. Anyone ever use it and if so, your experience?

treegal1
08-17-2008, 02:44 PM
Thanks for the kind words guys. I got exactly what I expected to get from her. Anything less, and I would have been disappointed in what I was already 99% sure I was going to hear from her. I'm sure it's not the first time she's burned the bridge over the river "organic", and it won't be the last. I will admit, I know almost nothing about the organic way of doing things, but like I said in my previous post, I am willing to change for the betterment of my business. I am open to new ideas and products, if and when they work. I have been looking at an organic product from a company called Aggrand. It is a Fish emulsion/Kelp extract. Looks like it's got lot's of good stuff in it. Anyone ever use it and if so, your experience?
thanks TED, at least you understand me.:waving: glad i did not disappoint you.hope you did not take offense. a tea brewer??? we have an old spare you can have, if ya want it. needs some work and a cleaning.LOL but it still works and the air pump is almost new. maybe come winter you want to take a ride around with me and see if I can convince you that real organics works and is profitable. even if you are looking at doing 3000 yards. we just added up all the K we take care of and we have almost 7800K, over 150 acres, no product and very little expense.

ted putnam
08-17-2008, 03:04 PM
maybe I missed him in there when I was being call a Bi--- and other wonderful names, respected post in the chem side, nasty bunch over there, don't know em all by name, don't care to. the hostile mess there is shocking. so I poked some fun, just in a funny way not trying to get any one down. so is he a chem guy since the 80'S is that what this is about..............I mean really, I see these big words like natural and organic and sustainable just tossed around here, next to bridge and other hidden words. tell me strait is this an organic forum or the less use forum, because I see less and less organics and more gleaning from an idea, that then gets packaged and sold from the same bag and with the same chemicals that this idea shunned from the start. never mind the local aspects of doing this(in my mind) correctly. whats the idea any way, tell me so I know if I am wasting my time and efforts here, is there a change in the works or did we just decide to switch bags and marketing. eh who am I kidding this is a marketing site, no room for ideas here, I out.....

I saw some of those posts.A little uncalled for, I'll agree. A universal agricultural saying for you, sometimes"we reap what we sow." One things for sure,change is constant. However, you can't expect everyone to just drop their hand sprayers, and replace them with weed poppers only. It just isn't going to happen that way.

treegal1
08-17-2008, 03:21 PM
ok so no change over night, how long does it take??? weeks months??? are you really not convinced that a real organic program works??? has any one tried??? I mean really tried, not just 2 apps of jar tea and given up?? has any one devoted 18 x 800$ to setting there program up??? wow that's 14400$ I just did the math. thats a real nice 500 gallon brewer and a top dresser and a dump trailer and 6 months rent on a lot to compost on, with some money for sea weed and fish oil. and then you don't have to buy another thing for a while???? just get paid to take waste/manure. hire another American guy/gal to drive a truck, the next six months of 18 x 800 will almost pay for a good used one????and as long as you got me going and making every one unhappy, whats the deal with corn??? there is a lot of better ways to get the weeds out and help with a drought than to dump chems and more chems.

dishboy
08-17-2008, 06:18 PM
Most of the viewing comes from those who trickle over from the mowing site. Most have no source or budget to stockpile tons of compost nor the time as the schedule is full . Like Ted said change comes slow and in small increments. Slamming those who post here is counterproductive IMO. Anybody wonder why Hammons, timturf or David Hall no longer come here? It's to bad because they taught me much.

treegal1
08-17-2008, 07:44 PM
so many excuses why not to do it, and so few reasons to start today, that's all it comes down to, the economics are there, the resources are there, just not the will to do it. and a existing company has the resources(hopefully) to do the change to organics, most have a waste stream and equipment, some even have some land, others have compost available to them, some times free. listen I want to say to every one I am not about bashing I just think that sitting on the fence passing off excuses is lame(just my opinion). yes there is a transition stage, its a little hard to change at first, but after you get into it its a snap. If you want a hybrid then that's great to, but all to often you will see a "organic company" hit the roundup and preM and still try and pass it off. if you want to get off the shelf items that's cool, lets just keep the mix stuff in the hybrid spot and out of organics. I am tired of some new customers and folks from on line asking what the other guys use as a pre M, "they say that they can control the weeds with 2 sprays, pre and post" that's not organic land care.if you are a chem guy and want to use some low salt or natural base fert that's great, glad you are trying to make the effort.I wont Bash ya for trying, never have never will.and again the budget thing, a truck load of fert is going to cost almost as much per month as my operating expenses total for one year, and the start up costs are not all that much to begin with, that's the part that kills me. I mean really,

....Traditionally, most LCO's put down 1 - 1 1/2 pounds of N for the "winterizer" app. This gives early green-up and helps turf to become thicker in early spring (giving it a head start before weeds can invade).

Been checking "natural-organic" blends that offer up to only 16% N :confused:. Does this mean we have to apply 7 to 9 pounds per 1000 sq ft? :confused: If that's the case, my guys are gunna be really tired at the end of each day.....pushing spreaders with all that weight up & down hills, etc. :hammerhead:

What are your thoughts?

rscvp, thanks

not a real organic and a slight to the ones that do???

then this comment gets me slamed,
hey AXE, ted here sounds like one of those chem guys, maybe even a trugreen guy, don't try and convince him this works.LOLOL:laugh:wait let me take one more guess, he has been a chem guy since the 1980'S.:waving::laugh::laugh:

yes I take the hard line in the sand approach some times, well all the time, still does not change the fact that I am willing to help others get a program started, yeah it ain't free any more, so what, minimum wage pays better than the fee I charge now. and I am willing to help almost any one here. lets see brewer pics, compost instructions, how to find compost, pest control help all the time, free garden and land care classes, what more do you all want, do I need to drive up and spend a week with some one just to have one person admit that the hard to do and impossibly slow way i do things really works, its not a joke, I will do it if that's what it takes, if there is no takers and you all just want to do the hybrid thing that's fine by me no hard feelings. just don't take what i say out of context as being one that is about pi$$ing on others and not being willing to help. but please stop saying that its too hard to do it all the way or not profitable, that's just not the case!!!!!!!

Prolawnservice
08-17-2008, 10:17 PM
Come on up! :)

treegal1
08-17-2008, 10:36 PM
yes that sounds good!!! I have often wanted to find out why they call it the garden state??? PM me an email or a contact if you are for real!!! does the grass still grow in late aug- early sep???? or do you want to get started now for spring???

phasthound
08-17-2008, 11:14 PM
yes that sounds good!!! I have often wanted to find out why they call it the garden state??? PM me an email or a contact if you are for real!!! does the grass still grow in late aug- early sep???? or do you want to get started now for spring???

By all means, come on up Treegal!! I'll be glad to house you.

Turf here is about ready to recover from the summer. Now is prime time to get ready for the spring. I'll show you that at least south Jersey is still the Garden State. :)

However, the State has frowned on composting due to one company that has made it hard for the rest. NJ is also the Regulatory State. More rules that the feds. :eek:

If you're serious, I'm serious. I would even set up a seminar for you.

I just ask that you forgive those who are not on your path yet and realize that "A journey of a thousand miles starts with one step".

Prolawnservice
08-18-2008, 12:58 AM
Good, I show you my garden then. Late Aug early Sept is over seeding time, the grass is still growing. I don't think its the case with warm season turf, but what you do to the turf in the fall up here, is translated into your results in the spring, hence this thread.

Its actually a great time to check out the beaches or go camping in the pine barrens. We have a camping/ kayaking trip planned for the first weekend in Sept., hasn't rained in thirty years on that weekend, there will be plenty of room for yall to join us if you would like. :drinkup:

Smallaxe
08-18-2008, 07:53 AM
I am not tall enough to be a Gary Cooper, but thanks for the thought. :)

IMO the main point that is missed in organic vs. chem is - the idea that new ferts need to be ADDED all the time.
In organics the agenda is: to make nutrients in the soil AVAILABLE all the time.

What do we do with thatch??? We dethatch and haul it away. A waste of time , energy, and nutrients. Not an organic concept.
There are better nutrients in the thatch than any granular stuff you can bring in. Better because it can break down and add soil structure and feed the microbes that feed the soil. Sugar/Mollases does work great for that and no ants attracted yet.

That is only one example. Organics is a paradigm shift from the fertilizer controlled education system. Ferts may still be necessary for large scale food production, but you would think acedemia would recognize the difference between the corn belt and a stinking little patch of grass. :)

treegal1
08-18-2008, 09:23 AM
By all means, come on up Treegal!! I'll be glad to house you.

Turf here is about ready to recover from the summer. Now is prime time to get ready for the spring. I'll show you that at least south Jersey is still the Garden State. :)

However, the State has frowned on composting due to one company that has made it hard for the rest. NJ is also the Regulatory State. More rules that the feds. :eek:

If you're serious, I'm serious. I would even set up a seminar for you.

I just ask that you forgive those who are not on your path yet and realize that "A journey of a thousand miles starts with one step".

fellows hold that thought one second, I have a situation on my hands this morning( hurricane!!!!), let me get rite back at ya in a few........................hurry with that ply wood!!!!

americanlawn
08-18-2008, 09:22 PM
Thanks to all (especially those who do not assume or take things for granted). Been checking fert prices in all forms including organic, synthetic-organic, and minerals (derived from Mother Earth) and trying to decide what my next two semiloads will look like. Got quotes from "natural organics", "synthetic-organic" and "regular fert" (mined from Mother Earth). Some companies offer only a 12% nitrogen content. Some smell. Some have possible disease organisms. I posted this cuz I'm merely shopping. Hope nobody minds, cuz I need to run a profit. Hope folks understand. If not, my business is for sale so you can run it and answer to my customers. :usflag::canadaflag:

treegal1
08-19-2008, 03:32 AM
I need 2 more seconds to get back to you all about NJ.........

JDUtah
08-19-2008, 03:39 AM
Good luck during and good luck after (clean up money?) Tree.

DeepGreenLawn
08-19-2008, 05:13 PM
I will admit, I am about 2 issues away from having my own compost program like trees up and running. I actually have the compost... that is no longer the issue... the only thing that is worrying me right now is the influx of customers we are planning on having next spring. I don't want to get caught with my pants down trying to run around putting down the a product I have not ironed out yet and get tripped up with my pants being around my ankles.

Don't get me wrong... like I said, I am just about to the peak of the process... just need something a little more secure right this second... I will keep working on my process, get the last few things hindering me hammered out, and be on my way back down hill, the side where I start making the money. I think all I need to do left is go visit tree for a few days to a week and that should answer all my questions. Who knows... maybe I can have it all up and running by next spring.

Like I said, I don't want anyone thinking I have abandoned the idea, I personally feel I have put too much into it to do so... I am running a business and any good business man will have a back up plan to fall on... this is what I am putting in place right this second. A quality product that is a known reliable organic source that is predictable. This should be done with any type of change in the business, never leave yourself stranded... I have done this once before already and am learning my lesson.

americanlawn
08-19-2008, 08:52 PM
Thanks Ted. After over 30 years, I have learned to ignore the ignorant, cuz they usually do not operate with common sense, yet they often times ignore the latest in technology. (heck --- I took a chance & bought the first TURFCO ride-on in the Country). So I'm completely open for whatever works and gives results that our customers' expect.

I'm no genius, and that's why I'm asking questions..like "how can a 46-0-0 compare to a 16-?-? "natural organic" in regard to a winterizer fertilizer.

I hope others can see my point, cuz we're talking thousands of dollars in a purchasing decision.


I think what Larry was referring to was the "bridge" product phasthound referred to(16-2-3.) Being in more Northern climates, certainly not Florida and not here in Arkansas, he is dealing with Cool season turfgrass and that is a whole different ball game! Here, we apply very little if any N to turfgrass as part of our "winterizer". However, our growing season is longer and during the growing season, the amount of N applied is a real concern for sustained appearance. Let's face the facts.The customer pays for a nice looking lawn. It has to look nice and remain looking nice for a reasonable amount of time for our customer to remain "our" customer,otherwise they'll find someone else. I don't have a huge compost heap or a steady supply of sewage sludge at hand. And even if I did, at this point, I'm not convinced that either would keep my business afloat. What I do know is that I am willing to, and can change the way I operate in order for my business to survive and if it helps keep things "green", it's that much better.

treegal1
08-20-2008, 12:45 AM
things have gone from bad to worse to down rite $h*ty......

growingdeeprootsorganicly
08-20-2008, 02:12 AM
looks nasty, batten down the hatches!
I hope you guy's are OK!

Smallaxe
08-20-2008, 05:29 AM
Thanks Ted. After over 30 years, I have learned to ignore the ignorant, cuz they usually do not operate with common sense, yet they often times ignore the latest in technology. (heck --- I took a chance & bought the first TURFCO ride-on in the Country). So I'm completely open for whatever works and gives results that our customers' expect.

I'm no genius, and that's why I'm asking questions..like "how can a 46-0-0 compare to a 16-?-? "natural organic" in regard to a winterizer fertilizer.

I hope others can see my point, cuz we're talking thousands of dollars in a purchasing decision.

Another question to ask yourself is:
"What is going to happen to all that N, b4 the plant gets around to using it up?" Evaporate and leach.
"Does the plant use it all in the summer heat and have a healthy root system as well?"
Lots of top growth on shallow thatched roots? Those lawns are dependant on another N fix and pertetual watering or it is suffering.

I am just ignorant enough to know that the current system was developed to sell fertilizer to suckers with lawns and gardens. If 10-10-10 is good then, 40-0-0 has got to be better. Same with irrigation.

The status quo is not common sense. It is overkill, overkill, and overkill. It creates the thatch so we can sell - Aeration.
To me the idea that - "If X is good, then, X times 2 is better" is the most ignorant thing of all. But as long as the clients buy into it - who cares? Money in our pocket.
:)

JDUtah
08-20-2008, 12:54 PM
axe, you aren't applying more fertilizer with the higher numbers... you are spreading the same N for less money. It's not X times 2 is better... it's X at half price is better. :)

And the KB thatch problem usually happens from irresponsible fertilizer management... usually done by ignorant homeowners who do apply too much N. I would hope a commercial applicator knew better.

treegal1
08-20-2008, 03:02 PM
well, we got our A$$'S handed to us in a big way!!!

the new stop lost its whole roof and most of the side in a tornado. the old shop lost both doors. and there is compost for 3 county's,lolol its just real wet now.

JDUtah
08-20-2008, 03:05 PM
Wow Tree! Good luck!

DeepGreenLawn
08-20-2008, 10:10 PM
sounds like a lot of clean up for both you and all your customers $$$

Thats a lot of water...

JD, I guess that is one way of putting out compost...

Smallaxe
08-21-2008, 09:35 AM
Sorry to hear that TG. At least we know you're ok and that you will pull through. I can't imagine a tornado defeating you :)

JD,
I recognize that 3 lbs of actual N per k is the end result. I am challenging the idea that 3 lbs of N is necessary at all.

The reference to 10-10-10 was to illastrate that people used to add a little fertilizer - maybe <1 lbs/k and noticed a difference. So next time add more, until there is nothing more to improve. That's our base line. cool. Let's do that 4 times a year. Really!?!?!

Now we are at the stage of not understanding that ferts should compliment a healthy soil instead of the ferts CREATING the "healthy" soil.

Does anyone know the point of diminishing returns for each of their lawns?

My guess is - no. Beyond that we put down 3lbs/k no matter what, because that is the way it is done in our program.
Remember in a previous thread it was reasoned that a 'soil test' does not reveal the true character and nutrient value of a soil. The microbial activity makes the difference.

2 lbs/k would probably still be overkill but 1/3 less in cost. 3 apps instead of 4 would be???

I still say that my compost made sufficient N available making it totally unnecessary to add more syn N. Soon the turf will be coming back to life on the unirrigated lawns and the color will tell me everything I need to know.

treegal1
08-21-2008, 09:45 AM
you guys missed the whole point!!! did you see a N on my test??? f that we dont need to know or care how many N!! its pointless. why do you think bills 2% N 5 times a year gets the job done???? and all that n is tied up and in a protein????

next one to get this pm me and I got something for ya!!! dont bombard-me with questions and the like, it has all been said before, sorry you missed it:cry::cry:just loose the n idea!!!:hammerhead:

we are still getting our A$$ kicked, flooding and all, not so much wind, and it has not left yet, we are going to rebuild the new sit with steel shipping containers, paid for with scrap metal money:), the nurseries in homestead and LA got hit hard! and vero beach is a total loss. this is still a joke compared to Andrew!!!!!

DeepGreenLawn
08-21-2008, 09:53 AM
Sorry to hear that TG. At least we know you're ok and that you will pull through. I can't imagine a tornado defeating you :)

JD,
I recognize that 3 lbs of actual N per k is the end result. I am challenging the idea that 3 lbs of N is necessary at all.

The reference to 10-10-10 was to illastrate that people used to add a little fertilizer - maybe <1 lbs/k and noticed a difference. So next time add more, until there is nothing more to improve. That's our base line. cool. Let's do that 4 times a year. Really!?!?!

Now we are at the stage of not understanding that ferts should compliment a healthy soil instead of the ferts CREATING the "healthy" soil.

Does anyone know the point of diminishing returns for each of their lawns?

My guess is - no. Beyond that we put down 3lbs/k no matter what, because that is the way it is done in our program.
Remember in a previous thread it was reasoned that a 'soil test' does not reveal the true character and nutrient value of a soil. The microbial activity makes the difference.

2 lbs/k would probably still be overkill but 1/3 less in cost. 3 apps instead of 4 would be???

I still say that my compost made sufficient N available making it totally unnecessary to add more syn N. Soon the turf will be coming back to life on the unirrigated lawns and the color will tell me everything I need to know.

That is the exact mindset that I am finally getting into my thick skull. I appreciate everyones patience, especially yours tree, I am sure everyone here has wanted to come visit just to strangle me a few times.

N, that is no longer a concern for me (use your head and don't be so litteral, N matters, it is just not my first mindset, X/1000 type deal, just like what small said).

This changes everything.:clapping::cool2:

Kiril
08-21-2008, 10:45 AM
I'm no genius, and that's why I'm asking questions..like "how can a 46-0-0 compare to a 16-?-? "natural organic" in regard to a winterizer fertilizer.

I hope others can see my point, cuz we're talking thousands of dollars in a purchasing decision.

Compost does a soil good!

If your on the fence, then I might suggest you pick a small percentage of your accounts that you can "experiment" with and go the organic route with those initially. This way you can fine tune your program before going all in.