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View Full Version : Backhoe slop


coopers
08-14-2008, 09:28 PM
So the most common thing I see on old backhoes is the hoe is just loose as hell. I was watching a 580C for a few and man was the hoe moving while the guy drove it around. Is that expensive to correct or do people not care? The old case hoes I used had slop and got a tad annoying but the backhoe today I watched was far worse; I would go NUTS. I was just curious about that and thought I'd ask.

crab
08-14-2008, 09:36 PM
my friend calls it machine Parkinson's!

Scag48
08-14-2008, 09:42 PM
Seems to me most people just don't care. I don't know how much a re-pin and bushing job would cost on a backhoe, but that would be the fix. Just think of it this way; if you come across some utilities while digging, you'll have a little wiggle room. The 580SL I'm running at work has 6300 hours, it slops around a little but not too bad. I don't mind the slop as much when I'm actually using the hoe, it actually irritates me more when you tuck in the hoe and are running around, hit some rough ground, and the whole back end of the machine does it's own thing. To me, that's almost more irritating.

crab
08-14-2008, 09:49 PM
i agree scag that's all pins and bushings,if they haven't egged out you're fine.

Dirt Digger2
08-14-2008, 10:05 PM
our one 580 super M does it...it gets a little annoying when you are doing loader work, just have to reach behind you and push the lever to fully retract the cylinder every now and again....it has nothing to do with pins and bushings...it is an O-ring inside the control that is bad and allows the pressure to seep out of the cylinder basically allowing it to go into "float" so it smacks back and forth against the machine stop and the boom lock

coopers
08-14-2008, 10:08 PM
our one 580 super M does it...it gets a little annoying when you are doing loader work, just have to reach behind you and push the lever to fully retract the cylinder every now and again....it has nothing to do with pins and bushings...it is an O-ring inside the control that is bad and allows the pressure to seep out of the cylinder basically allowing it to go into "float" so it smacks back and forth against the machine stop and the boom lock

Yeah I had to do the same thing for my hoe, just push the control forward to bring it back. The only thing with the hoe I was watching is that it's side-to-side was very bad. So if you replaced the O-ring it should go away then?

crab
08-14-2008, 10:08 PM
sorry digger started on shut hoes didnt know they had a float setting,i was referring to bucket slop and the like,thanks for the learning.

Scag48
08-14-2008, 10:09 PM
You're right, the slop from the hoe bouncing back and forth when running around with the seat facing forward is from hydraulics bleeding off. I just assumed that coopers was talking about pin and bushing slop, I can handle that, but the bleed off is definately more of a hassle for me. I must've re-tucked in the hoe like 10 times yesterday in 5 hours time. Not that big of a deal, but it always seems to get you when you least expect it. Hit a bump and you're fine, 2 minutes later the hoe is slapping all over the place, almost like the problem comes from nowhere.

bobcat_ron
08-14-2008, 10:13 PM
Slop is not too bad, if you are carefully scraping off soil, and the bucket tip catches the pipe, it might save the edge from piercing, I've had that happen 3 times now while "looking" for gas and electrical lines. But when the bucket actually self levels itself, it's time to head into the shop.

coopers
08-14-2008, 10:14 PM
Yeah I should have been more specific. My attention was really captured by the massive side-to-side movement. Buckets slop is another story.

Dirt Digger2
08-14-2008, 10:24 PM
replacing an O-ring is as simple as replacing an O-ring...its getting to that O-ring that is the major problem...put it this way, we have one hoe that needs the boom O-ring replaced and one hoe that needs the dipper stick O-ring replaced...my boss talked to some Case mechanics and after what he was told he is waiting until the dead of winter when nothing is going on the bring them into the shop and tear them apart.

coopers
08-14-2008, 10:30 PM
haha, yeah that's what I thought. Well at the very least I'll be making sure mine don't go long without replacement. My old boss had to take apart his extendahoe to do some work and I'm glad I wasn't there for that.

Scag48
08-14-2008, 10:30 PM
The swing slop isn't too bad, just gotta be quick on your feet if you're running Case controls. You really have to be in the machine for a little bit to teach yourself to compensate for the overswing. We had 3 hoes at the grounds with Case controls, every single one of them were completely different when coming back into the trench in regards to the valving in the swing pedals and the slop that goes along with the age of the hoe. We had a Cat 436, ancient machine, probably built in the mid 80's I'd guess. The worst swing slop I have ever seen. However, I was able to smoohtly pull the cycle in and out of the trench like it's no big deal, even with Case controls. Just takes a little time with the machine to understand what it's going to do. It's all about being familiar with the machine, if you know what it's going to do, you can compensate in advance.

crab
08-14-2008, 10:44 PM
i got ya,410d i learned on had the same problem,ended pulling the hoe off and changing all that stuff.i actually found it very convenient,i do a lot of rock work, and by myself i could just chain position and wait for the stone to settle.:laugh: !great one man show!

coopers
08-14-2008, 11:04 PM
Lol, yeah it is an art to dig with a sloppy hoe or bucket. I certain had to find the best way to compensate for that, afterwards I never noticed the slop until I was using the other end driving around.

Gravel Rat
08-14-2008, 11:23 PM
All backhoes have swing slop it doesn't matter if its brandnew or not. You have two short hydraulic cylinders pushing against each other to swing the boom back and forth. The JCB I used to run it had boom slop you just had to take account for it when swining. The machine only had 2500 hours on it and the machine is regularly greased non of the pins were worn out.

I'am used to working with a backhoe I probably put 100kms just roading the machine that doesn't include using the machine on the sites. Bounce bounce and more bounce who needs

Case foot pedal swing is the worst for a wild swing but it all takes practice.

coopers
08-14-2008, 11:24 PM
Well since this is kinda on case backhoes I just had to share some pics of a nice looking 580C that I found sold on point2 which was really on ironplanet. Anyone that can appreciate an old hoe would like this.

Gravel Rat
08-14-2008, 11:49 PM
Thats a oldey you don't see many of them anymore especially a open ROPS.

Just imagine those machines is what the older operators cut their teeth on a bare bones basic machine no fancy pilot controls.

Junior M
08-15-2008, 12:03 AM
look it even has dirtdiggers favorite controls!! haha i would love to run one..

Scag48
08-15-2008, 12:23 AM
look it even has dirtdiggers favorite controls!! haha i would love to run one..

Case controls are the best on backhoes, period.

coopers
08-15-2008, 12:24 AM
Thats a oldey you don't see many of them anymore especially a open ROPS.

Just imagine those machines is what the older operators cut their teeth on a bare bones basic machine no fancy pilot controls.

That's all we have in WA. Not many people use cabbed backhoes. I absolutely love those old machines. There are a lot of these in WA still in use. I HATE pilot controls on backhoes, I've said that before too so sorry for the repetition.

Junior M
08-15-2008, 12:49 AM
Case controls are the best on backhoes, period.
i wouldnt know....... i have a little french drain for a friend on his fourty acres so i am goin to dig a few stumps for him and learn to run john deere controls.(i think i cant remember the name for the controls on a full size trackhoe)

crab
08-15-2008, 12:57 AM
i will take wobbles thanks.

Scag48
08-15-2008, 01:01 AM
Learning Deere controls is pointless, IMO. Most excavators are running Cat controls (boom in right, stick in left) and Deere controls actually on a backhoe these days is fairly non-existant. Even then, it's not difficult to learn, you're just all fouled up for a while trying to get used to backwards controls. I can flop between Case and Cat controls so easy because they are very different from each other. Same reason I can run any dozer control fairly well, they're all different enough to not be confused easily with another. From pedal steer, lever steer, diff. steer, hystat, old school 2 lever clutch/brake armrest mounted, goes back to L series dozers in the 80's, or FTC's on Cat. I have my preferences, but can run them all. Deere controls on an excavator or backhoe is pointless, the only reason they exist to this day is that there are some people who can't run Cat, but I'd say a good majority of people run Cat controls. Sorry for the threadjack.

crab
08-15-2008, 01:09 AM
i agree i can run 4 lever ,makes sense ,like 2 lever loaders.but admit i hate cat excavator controls give me 8 hours i will sort it out out but dam-it i was raised backwards.:confused:

Junior M
08-15-2008, 01:26 AM
Learning Deere controls is pointless, IMO. Most excavators are running Cat controls (boom in right, stick in left) and Deere controls actually on a backhoe these days is fairly non-existant. Even then, it's not difficult to learn, you're just all fouled up for a while trying to get used to backwards controls. I can flop between Case and Cat controls so easy because they are very different from each other. Same reason I can run any dozer control fairly well, they're all different enough to not be confused easily with another. From pedal steer, lever steer, diff. steer, hystat, old school 2 lever clutch/brake armrest mounted, goes back to L series dozers in the 80's, or FTC's on Cat. I have my preferences, but can run them all. Deere controls on an excavator or backhoe is pointless, the only reason they exist to this day is that there are some people who can't run Cat, but I'd say a good majority of people run Cat controls. Sorry for the threadjack.
i meant cat controls i cant keep up with which is which... but i learned on john deere controls on an old IHI and that is what my dad runs so i just got on the machine and ran it... i was to excited to think about hmmmmmm which one will be better to learn? but i want to learn cat controls because there are alot more oppurtunities out there running a trackhoe than running a mini excavator.... but i really just want to run a trackhoe.. i tried to run a 320 cat but that was unsuccesful because i would start doing what i should on those controls then just totally quit thinking about what controls do what (like you do when running joysticks) and about break something...

Hollowellreid
08-15-2008, 09:23 AM
I always liked the cat controls as they seemed to make sense in relation to the Pilot's on the skid steers. Right stick for boom up down and bucket control, left for turning and forward/back of the boom.

Case 3/4 stick is the way to go for backhoe....maybe I'm just that old school though.

Scag48
08-15-2008, 11:32 PM
I definately prefer Case controls on a backhoe now that I've learned it. Bummed out though, I loaded up the 580 I've been running a little at work on the lowboy today and they hauled her away. Damn. Oh well, I've been promoted, I now run dozer and not roller and occasional backhoe after 3 days on the job. Hurray.

Junior M
08-16-2008, 12:10 AM
what kind of dozer? and what are you doing with it? and can we get some pics maybe?

Scag48
08-16-2008, 03:31 AM
It's an older, beat up Komatsu D37E. Basically I will maintain the haul roads and push material to the excavators. We have a D8 on site doing most of the pushing, but sometimes when we get down to a narrow patch, the Komatsu fits a lot easier than the 8. Truth be told, we need at least a D5 for this job, but this machine is getting it done. I start on the dozer tomorrow (yes, Saturday, overtime all day), would have jumped on it today, but had to go take care of some newhire paperwork and left the site early.

Junior M
08-17-2008, 12:04 AM
It's an older, beat up Komatsu D37E. Basically I will maintain the haul roads and push material to the excavators. We have a D8 on site doing most of the pushing, but sometimes when we get down to a narrow patch, the Komatsu fits a lot easier than the 8. Truth be told, we need at least a D5 for this job, but this machine is getting it done. I start on the dozer tomorrow (yes, Saturday, overtime all day), would have jumped on it today, but had to go take care of some newhire paperwork and left the site early.
oooo i got to sit on a d135 komatsu dozer, I think i dont know but it was HUGE!!, that was sitting in a clearing where we ride fourwheelers on off weekends. i dont know but we stepped it off but from the out side of one track to the outside of another it was 12 feet and the blade was roughly 14 feet wide.. man that thing was ginormous!! i am five foot five maybe five foot six and the tracks were above my waist! that thing was awesome just sitting on it.. but from what i have learned on here it had the u-shift and then two pedals that were in a pretty awkward place and looked like they were used very little and then two more levers right behind the blade control that had like a shift pattern beside each of them and the pattern was left to right.. but the shift pattern it showed (from left to right) reverse-neutral-forward and that was on both of them.. does anyone know what they wouldve been for?

Scag48
08-17-2008, 12:35 AM
Hard to say. The 2 pedals were probably the brake and declerator. Brakes are hardly used on dozers and the decel you use everytime you change direction, unless you're an idiot, and to slow yourself down for whatever reason. Don't know what the 2 levers behind the blade control were, they definately aren't directional controls, that's usually in the left hand as the right hand is running the blade. If it had a u-shift, I'd bet it was pedal steer, but you say there were only two pedals, there'd need to be 3 for that to be true. The new D155's have hystat control, another dumb idea on large dozers. Not really a fan of Komatsu dozers, most people I know aren't either. Deere finish dozers (130 horses and under) and Cat for everything else. Ain't nothing beats a D8R or T with diff steer.

Junior M
08-17-2008, 12:43 AM
well it had a little pedal that was on the floor board to the left i think? and then a footrest to the right.. it may have been the other way around and the pedals had a little worn paint on the corners like they were using there toes to move them they were in a really awkward place for me and i am pretty short they were way up in air for a pedal.. i just thought maybe that little pedal was just like a clutch or something maybe i have no clue i have never ran a dozer.. i have an idea on how to run one but i have never actually ran one... so i have no clue...

Scag48
08-17-2008, 12:51 AM
The one with the footrest was the decel. You need to be able to feather it really well, so the little floor mounted rest allows your foot and leg to not be totally trashed by the end of the day. Running a dozer is a blast, although that size you're not on and off the decel so much. The little guys like to spin their tracks, so you're always on the damn decel trying to get the dozer to quit cutting loose. In D6's and larger, there's no throttle lever, just a toggle that has a turtle and rabbit; turtle is idle, rabbit is full bore, you control engine RPM with the decel once you get going. This one dumbass guy I went to training with put the D8 we have at the grounds in gear while it was at idle, flipped the toggle and off he went, what a jolt that D8 performed. Like I said, brakes are hardly ever used, drop the blade if you need to slow down beyond what the decel does. Chances are, if you need brakes, you're going too damn fast for what you're doing. Big dozers only have 3 gears, at least Cats do. Komatsu throws a 5 speed slushbox in their big dozers I think. Finish grade, tight quarters, or bulk push in first, light passes in second, and if you touch 3rd gear your ass gets fired.

Junior M
08-17-2008, 01:00 AM
so the decel pedal is like a jake brake just slows the motor itself down which in turn slows the whole machine? I am not sure if i fully understand what it does...

ok this will help i think.. if i am in first doin a bulk push and want to back up do i just mash the pedal to the floor as fast as possible or slowly depress it so you dont jerk forward like on a backhoe? and then put it in reverse... sorry for all the questions i just want to learn about dozers and eventually run one...

Gravel Rat
08-17-2008, 02:08 AM
What the heck are you guys talking about try run a old D8 from the 1960 and 70s.

This truck has the same engine the D8 Cats in the 60s and 70s they clatter like h*ll till they fire on all cylinders.

I'am used to seeing and being around old Cats the loggers have or had lots of them. Pull the throttle leaver up full and put your foot on the decellerator put the machine in gear oh ya make sure you release the brake.

One of the loggers had a 1968 D-8 in my famillies yard and of course I had to try it out cycle the preheat twice and fired her up it took 5 mins before you could rev her up.

Scag48
08-17-2008, 03:18 AM
so the decel pedal is like a jake brake just slows the motor itself down which in turn slows the whole machine? I am not sure if i fully understand what it does...

ok this will help i think.. if i am in first doin a bulk push and want to back up do i just mash the pedal to the floor as fast as possible or slowly depress it so you dont jerk forward like on a backhoe? and then put it in reverse... sorry for all the questions i just want to learn about dozers and eventually run one...

A decellerator is the opposite of an accelerator. Instead of pushing for more fuel into the engine, you press for less. Your throttle is full bore until you tell it to slow down, completely opposite from every other machine out there. Works the same way as an accellerator though, you can back off and mash back down to rev it up, it's just backwards. Typically when I run dozer I'll slowly depress to slow the dozer, once I'm at idle I'll change directions, then release the decel to throttle back up. The decel has nothing to do with transmission or anything like that, so if you need to stop quickly you can mash on it and bring the dozer to a halt. Same as you would if you cut the fuel instantly on any other piece, except with a dozer there's no rolling affect, they just slam to a stop typically.

Junior M
08-17-2008, 09:38 AM
A decellerator is the opposite of an accelerator. Instead of pushing for more fuel into the engine, you press for less. Your throttle is full bore until you tell it to slow down, completely opposite from every other machine out there. Works the same way as an accellerator though, you can back off and mash back down to rev it up, it's just backwards. Typically when I run dozer I'll slowly depress to slow the dozer, once I'm at idle I'll change directions, then release the decel to throttle back up. The decel has nothing to do with transmission or anything like that, so if you need to stop quickly you can mash on it and bring the dozer to a halt. Same as you would if you cut the fuel instantly on any other piece, except with a dozer there's no rolling affect, they just slam to a stop typically.
oooooo ok that makes since.... thanks for the help....

Fieldman12
08-17-2008, 02:27 PM
I run an old 410 Deere backhoe at times. That thing has major slop. One time while running around using the lfront loader I looked back and noticed the pin that holds the stick on was half way out. I just swung the stick and bucket straight out and beat it back in. I found out real quick why that sledge hammer was setting on the backhoe.