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allinearth
08-16-2008, 08:32 AM
I have a customer getting ready to start installing a large pond. He wants to irrigate the hillside above it out of the pond. This is a large area, I would guess about 3-4 acres of large trees and grass. So what kind of components would you use? I'm thinking submersible, filter, 2" valves. But not sure what heads. Plenty of area to work with so they should be large area. He asked me about golf course heads. Which ones have you guys had experience with?

FIMCO-MEISTER
08-16-2008, 10:26 AM
This job is screaming I-90s

EagleLandscape
08-16-2008, 02:40 PM
rainbird spider sprays:)

Wet_Boots
08-16-2008, 02:46 PM
Shrubblers

Mike Leary
08-16-2008, 02:59 PM
I have a customer getting ready to start installing a large pond.
Be doing the math about volume and re-charge of the pond before you get
carried away with golf heads. The pump sizing will be have to be considered,
also.

bicmudpuppy
08-16-2008, 03:31 PM
Golf heads for 3-4 acres?? What size pond are we talking here? Figure 30-40gpm per head min AND figure around $200 each head. Unless you can't afford the zones / watering window, re-think your application. I-25's would not be over-kill, but anything bigger probably would be (IMHO). Are we going to re-charge said pond w/ a well? or are we dependent on natural replenishment? An acre/ft of water is just that. If you want to water 3-4 acres of real estate, and you don't have a way to re-fill the water source, it is going to have to be capable of 6-10 acre/ft of storage depending on your planned water usage and your ability to re-charge. In AR, you might get enough rain to cut that in half, but that is still a LOT of water. (trust me on this one, I'm throwing about 8-10 acre/ft a week right now.) To water 4 acres @ 1"/wk means 3 acre/ft of water unless there is a new math out there I'm missing. If the sole purpose is to keep the area alive and not green, you could get by on half that. At 6 acre/ft per month, your still going to have to have some means of re-charging . My little one acre pond looks rough when I've pulled 2 acre/ft from it and am waiting for the irrigation ditch to fill it back up. (usually takes about half a day)

Wet_Boots
08-16-2008, 03:43 PM
An inch of water on an acre would be an acre-inch, not an acre-foot.

bicmudpuppy
08-16-2008, 03:59 PM
An inch of water on an acre would be an acre-inch, not an acre-foot.

4acres of land @1"/wk = 4acre/inches =1/3 acre/ft/wk and would still be more than an acre/ft/month. That times a 6 month watering season still looks like 6-10acre/ft of storage to me. (but, my math/typing is/was wrong) And before we get out of shape about the six month window, that is how I normally figure it. 6 months @ half rate plus the middle 3 months at all the water you can move equals an average of 6 months at the high rate of application. In AR, the widow is probably longer/higher than that. Maybe an average of 8 months of full irrigation instead of six.

hoskm01
08-16-2008, 04:03 PM
Get a big pump and means to recharge, then RB 8000's.

Mike Leary
08-16-2008, 04:31 PM
5, 4, 3, 2, 1....Time for Kiril to chime in.

Wet_Boots
08-16-2008, 04:54 PM
5, 4, 3, 2, 1....Time for Kiril to chime in.That would depend on whether there's silty loam or not.

Like the man said, it's a heap of watering. It becomes a larger version of the water-my-entire-lawn-from-a-cistern question. I wonder how deep a pond one could safely excavate on that land.

Mike Leary
08-16-2008, 05:12 PM
I'm not the math guy, but I water about 16K sf with 6 gpm re-charge and almost 3k
of storage. It's a 24-7 deal waiting for re-charge & then another zone fires, gotta have
multiple programs or ISC. I'm pulling 20 gpm on some zones.

EagleLandscape
08-16-2008, 05:21 PM
thanks, and thanks again:)

bicmudpuppy
08-16-2008, 06:28 PM
I'm not the math guy, but I water about 16K sf with 6 gpm re-charge and almost 3k
of storage. It's a 24-7 deal waiting for re-charge & then another zone fires, gotta have
multiple programs or ISC.

There is some good small scale real math.........approx. 16K= approx. 1/3 of an acre time 4 acres

So 6gpm multiplied 12 times means 72gpm or 4320gph or 103,680gallons per day
about 1/3 acre foot of water per day (1.0 acre foot = 325,851 gallons) IF you multiply that by 30 days and we get??? couldn't be 10 acre/ft? (and I might accuse you of over watering a bit if its quite that high Mike :) not much, but a bit )

Wet_Boots
08-16-2008, 06:34 PM
.....and we don't figure that the pond in Arkansas has any recharge but what falls from the sky.

bicmudpuppy
08-16-2008, 06:51 PM
.....and we don't figure that the pond in Arkansas has any recharge but what falls from the sky.

If we only count what falls, my bet is we are dead in the water. If we have a VERY nice watershed, we might be able to re-fill a pond that will hold 10-15 acre/ft of water. On the other hand, what are the odds of a well that will produce even 40-50gpm to keep a pond full so we can pump from it for 8-10 hours per night?

To water 2 acres @.5" in 10 hours means 90gpm. We do that every day, we water all 4 acres. We need enough storage in a pond to meet double that as a minimum with a means to replace all that water every day. The other solution is to have enough natural storage AND watershed to manage from rainy season to rainy season...................2.5acre/ft per month until recharge plus what you can't pump.

Wet_Boots
08-16-2008, 07:00 PM
Now, one might 'go green' and try to augment the rainfall with a cylinder-type of pump and use wind or solar power to bring water from a well into the pond.

Mike Leary
08-16-2008, 07:10 PM
(and I might accuse you of over watering a bit if its quite that high Mike :) not much, but a bit )

When I'm sand-based, I lean on it. That's where the moisture probe gets it.

bicmudpuppy
08-16-2008, 07:37 PM
I have a customer getting ready to start installing a large pond. He wants to irrigate the hillside above it out of the pond. This is a large area, I would guess about 3-4 acres of large trees and grass. So what kind of components would you use? I'm thinking submersible, filter, 2" valves. But not sure what heads. Plenty of area to work with so they should be large area. He asked me about golf course heads. Which ones have you guys had experience with?

Back to the original question (now that we have bashed the idea in general enough).

I-25's on 2.5" mains w/ 1.5" valves. 16-20 zone controller of your preference. Anything of that size is going to work, your comfort level and that of your customers would come first for me. Use the #13 for any half circles and the #28 for fulls. Shoot for 80#'s inlet pressure, say a system pressure at the pump of about 100#'s. Rough figuring, your going to need about 60 heads (it works out to 8x7 or almost an 8x8 depending on lots of things). That means approx. 30 part circle and 30 full circle heads or the equivalent of 45 full circle heads. Half of them run for 30min every night. Say 3 heads per zone and you then need 90+gpm @100#'s. That means 15 zones. You could reduce the nozzle size and increase your number of heads and zones. Moving up to 100 heads on 45' spacing instead of 60' with the larger nozzles means 40 part circle and 60 fulls or the equivalent of 80 fulls. We now only need 80#'s at the pump and only run about 10 gallons per full (40gpm). You can drop the main down to 1.5" main and 1" valves running 4 heads per valve and each zone runs for 45min to achieve .5" water. You have a very functional 20 zone system.

Wet_Boots
08-16-2008, 08:06 PM
I wonder if it could be greened up some more, and run on even lower pressures, with residential-type heads.

TPendagast
08-16-2008, 08:19 PM
This looks like a job for MAXI PAWs~ ho wait this isnt grand junction colorado?
Oh nevermind!

Wet_Boots
08-16-2008, 08:57 PM
You could run PGPs at 50-foot head-to-head spacing with enough pressure and large enough nozzles.

DanaMac
08-16-2008, 09:00 PM
You could run PGPs at 50-foot head-to-head spacing with enough pressure and large enough nozzles.

Heck let's do it all in sprays.

Wet_Boots
08-16-2008, 09:32 PM
Heck let's do it all in sprays.All-brass, while we're at it. I'm just mulling over what could be done vis-a-vis operating expenses, and what you'd spend up-front to save in the long run.

RedWingsDet
08-16-2008, 09:38 PM
After 1 dry year wouldnt it dry up the man made pond?

Mike Leary
08-16-2008, 09:50 PM
After 1 dry year wouldnt it dry up the man made pond?

Guess why we talk about re-charge. :hammerhead::hammerhead::hammerhead:

RedWingsDet
08-16-2008, 09:54 PM
Guess why we talk about re-charge. :hammerhead::hammerhead::hammerhead:

Stupid me.

I Thought thats what it meant too.
Learn something new everyday! Thanks!

allinearth
08-16-2008, 11:41 PM
By the way the customer was talking the pond will be 3 acres maybe more. The area couldn't be mowed until June so it definately will catch a lot of water. There are no plans for a well to recharge. Irrigation season here is realistically 6 mos with 3 hard months. No one said anything about pumps?

bicmudpuppy
08-17-2008, 12:28 AM
PGP's with 10 and 12 nozzles and 70#'s would actually work nicely, still be in that 100 head approx. and hydraulics as the small nozzles and I-25's.

This is one of those jobs that you probably should qualify. Is the customer "interested" or are they serious. You could spend 3-4 grand on the pump setup. I would lean toward twin submersible, but above ground centrifugals would work just as well. Again, we are talking about a pump setup to run what you decide you need. Exactly how much water do we need? Determined by how much ground are we actually watering AND do we need to be able to expand? or can we say this is it and design that way.

At 100 heads, I would *guess* that materials are going to run 6-8 grand plus pump station. Call it 10 grand minimum on your part........Maybe 25K installed? If your "hungry", you might do it for 20K, but it won't be worth it. While your at it, figure a water feature or two and run them with your pump station in the day time. I haven't done any estimating in about 2 years. My numbers are probably VERY low.

You could easily end up needing 100gpm + if expansion is possible.

allinearth
08-17-2008, 08:50 AM
He's definately serious. Probably jumped the gun on putting the info up here. Supposed to do some other work there tomorrow. I will look at the pond lay out and measure the area to be irrigated. Just wanted to get some of your guys' ideas because I have been thinking about this and the best way to do it. He was talking about putting in a fountain to keep the water aerated. I was thinking to run it off the irrigation pump and sprinkler controller. Anyone ever done this?

Mike Leary
08-17-2008, 11:01 AM
He was talking about putting in a fountain to keep the water aerated. [/QUOTE]

A "fountain" will not get it, but these bad boys will. www.otterbine.com

Wet_Boots
08-17-2008, 11:09 AM
You actually could run a fountain head from a pump, but not at the efficiency of the dedicated units.

Kiril
08-17-2008, 11:31 AM
5, 4, 3, 2, 1....Time for Kiril to chime in.

Little late, but what the hey.....

4 acres = 25090560 square inches = 25090560 cubic inches @ 1" of applied water

25090560 cubic inches = 0.33333332854 acre-foot = 108617.14286 gallons = 411160.61252 liters

Wet_Boots
08-17-2008, 11:37 AM
How many Imperial Gallons? :p

Kiril
08-17-2008, 11:44 AM
How many Imperial Gallons? :p

90442.690865

Wet_Boots
08-17-2008, 12:05 PM
....and if he's watering silty loam, at the rate of an inch per week, with a seven hour watering window, what will be the water velocity in a 2-1/2 inch sch 120 main, in furlongs per fortnight?

FIMCO-MEISTER
08-17-2008, 01:21 PM
....and if he's watering silty loam, at the rate of an inch per week, with a seven hour watering window, what will be the water velocity in a 2-1/2 inch sch 120 main, in furlongs per fortnight?

still waiting on those service vehicle pics

Waterit
08-17-2008, 01:39 PM
still waiting on those service vehicle pics

Or what more specific area of "Metro NYC" you dwell in/service.

Could Boots be the Clifford Irving of Lawnsite?

Wet_Boots
08-17-2008, 01:41 PM
still waiting on those service vehicle picsThe mobile command center is ever ready to roll

http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/4430/campercabinonwheelsle5.jpg

Wet_Boots
08-17-2008, 01:56 PM
Or what more specific area of "Metro NYC" you dwell in/service.

Could Boots be the Clifford Irving of Lawnsite?"I'll be everywhere, Ma. Wherever a customer's check will clear, I'll be there. Wherever ball-drive-rotors don't get a fair shake, I'll be there. Wherever folks say that triangular head spacing can never work, I'll be there."

http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/2301/grapesofwrath105jc0.jpg

allinearth
08-17-2008, 01:56 PM
I better go to Texas and get my license so I can figure all this out....... Is there any way to get a Texas irrigation inspector up here?

Kiril
08-17-2008, 03:48 PM
....and if he's watering silty loam, at the rate of an inch per week, with a seven hour watering window, what will be the water velocity in a 2-1/2 inch sch 120 main, in furlongs per fortnight?

Never liked word problems, but here is your rough estimate, rounded to two decimal places

-- Total water required = 108617.14 gallons
-- Flow rate required to apply 108617.14 gallons in 7 hour period = 258.61 gpm = 16.32 l/s
-- 2.5" SCH 120 I.D. = 65.40 mm (O.D. - wall thickness)

Using a flow nomogram to determine approximate velocity using I.D. and flow rate gives ~ 4 m/s flow velocity.

4 meters = 0.019883878152 furlongs
1 second = 8.2671957672e-7 fortnight

Flow velocity = 24051.54 furlongs/fortnight

Kiril
08-18-2008, 12:57 PM
Never liked word problems, but here is your rough estimate, rounded to two decimal places

-- Total water required = 108617.14 gallons
-- Flow rate required to apply 108617.14 gallons in 7 hour period = 258.61 gpm = 16.32 l/s
-- 2.5" SCH 120 I.D. = 65.40 mm (O.D. - wall thickness)

Using a flow nomogram to determine approximate velocity using I.D. and flow rate gives ~ 4 m/s flow velocity.

4 meters = 0.019883878152 furlongs
1 second = 8.2671957672e-7 fortnight

Flow velocity = 24051.54 furlongs/fortnight

Your slipping Boots .... presenting a problem without knowing the solution. :nono:

-- 2.5" SCH 120 I.D. = 57.8 mm (O.D. - (2 x wall thickness))

Using the real I.D. and flow nomogram gives ~ 5 m/s flow velocity.

5 meters = 0.024854847689 furlongs
1 second = 8.2671957672e-7 fortnight

Flow velocity = 30064.42 furlongs/fortnight

Mike Leary
08-18-2008, 03:45 PM
Your slipping Boots .... presenting a problem without knowing the solution. :nono:

-- 2.5" SCH 120 I.D. = 57.8 mm (O.D. - (2 x wall thickness))

Using the real I.D. and flow nomogram gives ~ 5 m/s flow velocity.

5 meters = 0.024854847689 furlongs
1 second = 8.2671957672e-7 fortnight

Flow velocity = 30064.42 furlongs/fortnight

Keep him occupied, maybe he won't have time to post soft core.

Wet_Boots
08-18-2008, 04:53 PM
Keep him occupied, maybe he won't have time to post soft core.We're going to switch to kittens


.

AI Inc
08-18-2008, 04:58 PM
That boy aint right!

Mike Leary
08-18-2008, 05:03 PM
He's a poly guy, so you can't blame the glue.

Wet_Boots
08-18-2008, 05:44 PM
But you get such swell fumes when you cut open a pressure-sealed 300 foot roll of the stuff.

"Cap'n, this thread is leaking posts. I can't hold her much longer!"

Mike Leary
08-18-2008, 06:20 PM
But you get such swell fumes when you cut open a pressure-sealed 300 foot roll of the stuff.

"Cap'n, this thread is leaking posts. I can't hold her much longer!"

Kiril in background.