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View Full Version : Plan for the fall.......how does it look?


BostonBull
08-21-2008, 06:45 AM
Here is my fall plan..........

August:
Spray a heavy dose of PHC BioPack

Mid September
Dethatch my entire lawn
Aerate
Gypsum
Lime
Seed (Penningtons smart seed?)

Once seed starts to grow,
more Biopack
Topdress with compost
OR
Spray Tea

November
Maybe an organic fert......MAYBE.

any comments?

treegal1
08-21-2008, 09:39 AM
welllllllll, to mmmeeeee it seems that you just blew a load of cash on some sea weed that you could get for free??? Boston?harbor? tea in the water to rebel from taxes?? maybe some free sea weed in the deal????????????

also try adding the lime and drywall to the compost??? better results I will guarantee that way !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! bills orange story?? we live it all the time. put all that stuff in the compost and only have 1 app????????

BostonBull
08-21-2008, 10:19 AM
TreeGal

great plan but where do I get THAT compost around ME? tough to come by!

so just tea, and lime. no gypsum or aeration for my clay/sand soil. No seed for the fall? no dethatch?

Kiril
08-21-2008, 10:30 AM
Why would you add gypsum AND lime? What is the pH, Ca, Mg, S of your soil?

Also, no point in applying anything when there is snow on the ground. :)

DeepGreenLawn
08-21-2008, 10:40 AM
I believe THAT compost is the compost you have available plus adding the ingredients yall are talking about. You aren't going to find a specific compost for your own needs, she is saying rather than taking all that stuff and putting it on the lawn, mix it in your compost, then put it on the lawn.

Take basic compost, find what the lawn needs, and add it to the compost, not the lawn. It will hold it and the turf will use it more effeciently.

Correct tree? Testing how I am doing on understanding all of this.

Kiril
08-21-2008, 10:49 AM
Use what you have available .... and preferably from the green waste stream. The only thing you really need be concerned with is heavy metals for your typical non-food crop uses.

BostonBull
08-21-2008, 11:23 AM
I am on a 6K sq/ft lot. no place here for a compost pile. I can get tea, OR compost delivered. I don't think there will be snow on the ground in November, I was mowing last November, but obviously don't apply anything with snow there.

I know trees well, not turf and not a whole lot about organics. I am trying to learn, and use what's available in my region, cheaply. I get gypsum, lime, Biopack, tea, and some other small stuff through my co. for basically free.

I am just trying to establish my lawn and do it economically.

DeepGreenLawn
08-21-2008, 11:26 AM
the only thing that I am not sure of is whether the ingredients have to be composted in or if you can just mix it into the compost then apply right away. I haven't gotten that far. If you can just mix it and go then you could do that pretty easily in a wheel barrel it would seem.

Kiril
08-21-2008, 11:32 AM
If your just going to mix it with the compost and apply, you might as well just apply it straight, unless your looking to save a couple of application steps.

Get the compost delivered. Compost does a soil good!

JDUtah
08-21-2008, 12:36 PM
I think the idea is that the active microbes make it more effective in some way? If you have finished compost, maybe mix in a small amount of fresh C and N when you mix the lime/gypsym in, keep it moist and let the microbes spike a little to work on it. Or is this idea off?

DeepGreenLawn
08-21-2008, 12:49 PM
I had a feeling it needed to be composted a bit, what stage of the compost do you need to add it OR after you have your compost, lets say I have a nice finished pile ready to go and find that a lawn needs lime, or whatever, I throw it in the compost, how long until it is "absorbed" to make it more efficient? Or do you have to have it ready to go at the beginning, then you will have Lime Compost here, _____ compost there, and _____ compost over here, ready to go, you just pick up what you need for each lawn?

treegal1
08-21-2008, 01:52 PM
you are getting this now!!! stay on track!! and yes I now Boston and those other states its hard to get compost, call around??? someone is sitting on some???

JDUtah
08-21-2008, 02:05 PM
ohhhh, so If i stay in Utah...

A private scrap recycling center just opened out here (FINALLY). I stopped to see what it was. Talking to an employee I couldn't help but stare and drool over 3/4 acres just sitting there. Asked if they were planning on green waste recylcing.. they said no.. I had a quick talk with the owner and he is willing to talk some more about it. He has a couple concerns with smell and runoff... I know it was covered a little when deep was looking, but any advice to give.. (I will go re-read that thread)

Also, I know, go vert with limited space... maybe use the tube things? Were those for vermicompost or compost? Also, if they are 20' high, how do you fill them? Any ideas would be great!

Hmm sorry to hijack Boston

treegal1
08-21-2008, 02:13 PM
we are going to in vessel composting !! we have 2 containers working now!!! more coming from miami and thats just the start!!! maybe you need top call phill, he has an answer for every thing!!!! it makes almost 50 yards per month 8x20 feet.............

cudaclan
08-21-2008, 04:12 PM
New England historically is low on the PH scale (acidic). It is difficult to attain seaweed at the shoreline. At one time, it was plentiful. Too bad on the limited land Boston. The collection programs for yard-waste (leaf, grass) makes for easy pikins’ already bagged. Post-Christmas brings the onset of trees on the curbside. A tremendous amount of carbon waiting for disposal/composting. I remember driving past a cemetery plot. Bags of leafs were collected ready for the dumpster. This was an era when composting/recycling was unheard of. I loaded all the bags and put them to good use. It is a unique perception (organics). We tend to look at “waste” as a beneficial product. Is it true to state that you practice this concept (organics) based upon respect for nature? Alternatively, did it evolve from a practical business decision? An analogy descriptive of reforming to a vegetarian/vegan.

Consider the links for compost Boston. Ludicrous to charge for municipal compost. Billerica has a bio-sludge program. I am not too fond of it, maybe for a lawn.

http://www.ci.haverhill.ma.us/departments/highway/compost.htm
http://209.85.215.104/search?q=cache:9Et2_jUphTwJ:170.63.97.68/dep/recycle/actcomp.pdf+haverhill+compost&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=7&gl=us
http://www.mwpca.org/billerica.htm

treegal1
08-21-2008, 04:27 PM
I love vegetarians/vegans they taste like chicken!!!!!

DeepGreenLawn
08-21-2008, 05:06 PM
ohhhh, so If i stay in Utah...

A private scrap recycling center just opened out here (FINALLY). I stopped to see what it was. Talking to an employee I couldn't help but stare and drool over 3/4 acres just sitting there. Asked if they were planning on green waste recylcing.. they said no.. I had a quick talk with the owner and he is willing to talk some more about it. He has a couple concerns with smell and runoff... I know it was covered a little when deep was looking, but any advice to give.. (I will go re-read that thread)

Also, I know, go vert with limited space... maybe use the tube things? Were those for vermicompost or compost? Also, if they are 20' high, how do you fill them? Any ideas would be great!

Hmm sorry to hijack Boston

now your talking...

I personally want to hear more about this vessel composting... it sounds pretty cool, I know you touched on it before, maybe we can get together and get something set up this winter,

let me know what your "conselation fee" is for all of this so I know how much to bring when I come visit this fall/winter.

BostonBull
08-21-2008, 08:55 PM
Yes New England landscapes are known to be Acidic, mine is 5.5-6 depending where the sample is taken, so lime wont hurt. Really can never put down too much lime around here. I wish getting seaweed was as easy as going to the shore! I would have dump truck fulls, but its not so we'll have to improvise.

I can get compost, but nothing with fruits, veggies or other non "green" ingredients. Just leaves, grass, and wood. Theres a place about 30-40 minutes away that has compost with fish, cardboard, some minor construction debris, human bio-solids, leaves, woodchips, grass, etc etc.

If I spread compost should I still:
Aerate
Dethatch
Gypsum
Lime?

I will still do a PHC Biopack treatment because its free, and trees/lawn can never have enough!!

wallzwallz
08-21-2008, 09:29 PM
BostonBull, have you done a soil test yet? You should know your calcium and magnesium numbers before liming and adding gypsum. UMass has a good $13 test.The biopack has mycorrhizal fungus? If so use that right after aerating. I would aerate, myco or biopack,seed , soil amendments( lime ,gypsum etc) and compost. Do it all at once, down here on the Cape it's like Sept. 15 for a ball park date to start fall reno's.

Tree, I have seaweed access, how do you utilize it or what do you do with it? I buy liquid seaweed, because I really don't know how to make it useable. Right now I rake the seaweed and use it as mulch on raspberries and veggie garden.

BostonBull
08-21-2008, 10:13 PM
Yes BioPack is Mychorizzae fungi and some other beneficials with it as well. Great stuff! works the best, its the only Mychorizzae innoculation we do for trees.

I had a soil test done 2 years ago by Umass. they recommended 40 lbs per 1000 of lime spring and fall. I don't have it any longer but I remember it saying a 30-3-3fert in spring, summer, fall, and early winter. my OM was 2%, so I needed to get that up. My soil PH from my beds was 5.5 and my lawn was 6.

I forget all the others. next year is when they said I should send it back for a retest.

JDUtah
08-21-2008, 10:17 PM
40 lbs lime per 1,000? sure it wasn't 4? That even seems high to me?

wallzwallz
08-21-2008, 10:30 PM
You need compost then for sure. Your ferts should be high OM%. You want your Calcium to be a 7 or 8 to 1 Magn. In all my years of ferting lawns I never used a 30 anything, I think that's what they recommended something similiar. I would test again so you can see where your ph is and everything else. You should always save the test so you can see what improved w/ what treatments. My personal soil test would not be around in 2 years either lol.

wallzwallz
08-21-2008, 10:36 PM
JD, that is normal around here. I had a a 65 lb per 1000. I put down 4000 lbs on a 120K lawn and 2/3 of the lawn was on split rate

JDUtah
08-21-2008, 10:41 PM
wa-wow! That's crazy! Lol, maybe that's why they said don't chase the pH ghost. :)

BostonBull
08-21-2008, 11:39 PM
its a normal rate of application round here! actually light compared to some. that's why I don't get it whne you guys say no gypsum AND lime. I can use it! our lawns will never be neutral unless we dig up the top 8-12" lay good loam and don't live near trees or wooded areas. lol!

treegal1
08-21-2008, 11:47 PM
oh no is the Ph ghost in here now!!! why does my ignorant extension service keep pushing a 6.5 ph for lawns???? just dont do it,also see about that compost ph??? add the lime to the compost, trust me it works!!!!!

sea weed, water plant, river slime (the green kind) is all the same more or less, grind and store it liquid( better do some research or pay some one to help you do it the first time, or you can make a real mess!!) or dry it and powder it, then when the time comes just add water!! I dont know off the top of my head what it is or does?? exactly..... but it works, the best stuff we had was 6 types of water plant(salt and fresh) the stuff was like nitro for palms and arbocola.

also, microbe can make acid or alkaline, mull that over for one sec??? a herd working day and night to do your work???? ph tester and scope??? get em JD!! do you have a scope??

treegal1
08-21-2008, 11:50 PM
40 lbs per year per K, dang do you need this every year!!!! the orange story bill tells!!!

"I have told the story many times on here of the citrus farmer that applied lime at huge
rates for 30 years, 30 YEARS........ why didn't it correct the soil ???? after 30 years of
applications ......why ???
He took the lime and composted it and applied the compost to the farm, the next year
the test came back that no lime was needed... HUH ??""

from Bill, as well as I have herd and seen the same!!!

treegal1
08-21-2008, 11:54 PM
the guys just stormed out drunk and cusing about PH.LOLOL thanks.LOLOL

Kiril
08-22-2008, 12:18 AM
Personally I would like to see some evidence of that story, otherwise it is nothing more than hearsay.

As far as pH goes, use plants that can handle your soils natural pH.

BostonBull
08-22-2008, 06:36 AM
Treegal

How can I add lime to the compost, if I am NOT mixing the compost myself?


I too would like to see the eveiden ce of that Orange STORY, sounds fruity to me. It is very hard to pass jusdgement on a soil from 2500 miles away, and never working in New England before.

Thanks for all the help thus far everyone, I have learned alot!

treegal1
08-22-2008, 09:18 AM
let me just cut and paste some stuff not really related, or is it..........mineralization??? what is lime ?? Oolite,rotofiers?? have I read to far or not far.................. what ever, I got to go count green lawns again, and$

Nitrifying bacteria produce nitrate which is the preferred form of N for annual plants in normal soil – no inorganic fertilizer applications needed. Nitrifying bacteria require and maintain alkaline conditions. That means that terrestrial annual plants grow best in alkaline soils. And they do, in general.

The form of nitrogen is very important then, is it not? When bacteria and fungi grow in the soil, what form of N are they taking up? They probably prefer protein, but they will also take up nitrate, nitrite and ammonium – all of the inorganic forms of N can be taken up by these organisms. But not all species use all kinds of N. Presence of high concentrations of NO3 will select for certain communities of bacteria, or fungi. Nitrite selects for other species, ammonium for other species.

Look at a picture of the root of an annual plant taken with a microscope. In the book called “The Ultrastructure of the Root”, by R. Fosterm the most noticeable thing you will see is the deep layer of “slime” present on root surfaces, and the soil around the root. Everything is embedded in the slime produced by bacteria.

Recent work from the USDA in Beltsville show that mycorrhizal fungi also produce significant glues to hold the fungal hyphae on the root, and which help form macro-aggregates in the soil. The pH of these glues are alkaline. When we deal with row crop plants, with most mid-to-early successional grasses, with most terrestrial weeds, and most early successional terrestrial plants, the pH around the roots is alkaline.

But given that the slime layer, the glue around aerobic bacterial cells is alkaline, and there are millions of bacteria per gram of healthy soil, they have to have a large role in influencing soil pH, especially if the soil is bacterial-dominated.

Don’t over-extrapolate to wetland plants, riparian plants, hydroponic situations, or high production ag conditions. Different things are going on there. Think about the fact that most plants in high production ag fields are extremely sick, very stressed, and not functioning normally. If they were healthy, they wouldn’t need all those pesticides, and they would be able to establish and out-compete the weeds. So, any example based on conventional ag cannot be used. Seriously different things are going on there. And pH is being jerked around all the time by high lime, or gypsum or anhydrous ammonia, or other additions.

Humans alter pH with very little effort. So, you can’t use pH as a meaningful measure of anything if pesticides, high level of fertilizers, or compaction have been imposed on soil. And what intensive agricultural soil has not had pesticide, herbicide, high levels of inorganic fertilizer, and severe compaction imposed on it?

wallzwallz
08-22-2008, 01:24 PM
In my example, the lawn had not been limed in at least 10 years. I posted the test in this thread http://www.lawnsite.com/showthread.php?t=240029&page=2

treegal1
08-22-2008, 01:33 PM
so get the Ca way up and see what happens, find some bone char or use the calcitic lime. then lets talk Ph...................maybe even some ground lime stone, we get some every now and then..............try a train depot or gravel site the silt is what ya want!!!

wallzwallz
08-22-2008, 01:43 PM
I have been raising the calcium, w/ calcitic lime in spring and gypsum in several light applications. Have Bone char and more calcitic for the coming months. I posted the link to the test for the lime recommendations. Thanks for the info on seaweed, I'll probably continue to mulch w/ the seaweed and buy the liquid for my needs.

Kiril
08-22-2008, 01:57 PM
Still trying to figure out why your using both lime and gypsum?

BostonBull
08-22-2008, 02:06 PM
gypsum psum is for soil compaction, dog piss spots, and the salt/sand on the front lawn from the winter.

my house is 4 years old and the contractor stripped the top soil off, and I was left with clay/sand. I am trying to get the soil as right as I can, and learn some stuff on the way.

you guys are all over the place and make it hard to follow......seaweed, bone, compost, sheetrock, etc etc aye yae yae!

wallzwallz
08-22-2008, 02:15 PM
For calcium w/out ph change and had compaction issues.

treegal1
08-22-2008, 02:24 PM
I have been raising the calcium, w/ calcitic lime in spring and gypsum in several light applications. Have Bone char and more calcitic for the coming months. I posted the link to the test for the lime recommendations. Thanks for the info on seaweed, I'll probably continue to mulch w/ the seaweed and buy the liquid for my needs.or compost with it, also in the dark ages of our program we just ran it in a chipper and used it as a top dress.....

treegal1
08-22-2008, 02:28 PM
you guys are all over the place and make it hard to follow......seaweed, bone, compost, sheetrock, etc etc aye yae yae! you did not get my list of 600+ compost ingredients??? LOLOL its a yin yang thing all in small amount to get a balance, to little water and you will dry up and blow away, to much water and you will end up like port saint Lucie Fl, LOLOL:cry:

wallzwallz
08-22-2008, 03:54 PM
No rocks on the FL beaches? We have some rocks in the seaweed. I used to live in Vero, I heard you mention Ft Pierce, I did some collections for a jewelers down there and remember Avenue D? I think was the road. Some scary people down there. This was 1983 so it may be different now.

treegal1
08-22-2008, 07:48 PM
No rocks on the FL beaches? We have some rocks in the seaweed. I used to live in Vero, I heard you mention Ft Pierce, I did some collections for a jewelers down there and remember Avenue D? I think was the road. Some scary people down there. This was 1983 so it may be different now.yes you got it same place same thing, glock 19.................

JDUtah
08-22-2008, 07:55 PM
I wasn't even alive in 1983 :laugh:

phasthound
08-22-2008, 08:07 PM
I have been raising the calcium, w/ calcitic lime in spring and gypsum in several light applications. Have Bone char and more calcitic for the coming months. I posted the link to the test for the lime recommendations. Thanks for the info on seaweed, I'll probably continue to mulch w/ the seaweed and buy the liquid for my needs.

Have you tried high cal lime with humates? You can apply 5lbs/1000 instead of 20lbs/1000.

wallzwallz
08-22-2008, 08:32 PM
JD, thanks lol

Phast no I have not, is this a combined product or using calcitic lime and spraying humates? I am interested in your method, thanks.

Tree, I lived in Vista Gardens, and they had to think about renting to me because I had long hair.lol

BostonBull
08-22-2008, 08:41 PM
After the last two pages of info, heres the new plan.....

De-thatch
Aerate
Biopack
Seed
Compost

Call it done, until spring.

JDUtah
08-22-2008, 08:42 PM
looks good to me

treegal1
08-22-2008, 09:38 PM
After the last two pages of info, heres the new plan.....

De-thatch
Aerate
Biopack
Seed
Compost

Call it done, until spring.maybe some tea but that will wait till spring, then you can put it in over drive with some herd then!!! I bet the cost went down to????

BostonBull
08-22-2008, 09:46 PM
Anything else I should definitely add? I have enough biopack to do 2 sessions. I will do one this weekend and then one next month when I do the aeration etc etc


TreeGal

PM Sent

DeepGreenLawn
08-22-2008, 10:00 PM
I wasn't even alive in 1983 :laugh:

I thought I would make them all feel old by telling them that was the year I was born but I think you beat me by a little.

Kiril
08-23-2008, 10:32 AM
For calcium w/out ph change and had compaction issues.

gypsum psum is for soil compaction, dog piss spots, and the salt/sand on the front lawn from the winter.

Still not following why you would use both gypsum and lime.

What I am trying to get you guys to do is figure out on your own why you WOULDN'T use gypsum in a low pH soil.

So I'll ask this....

How does gypsum relieve soil compaction?

Why would you apply something that adds to the acidity of a soil to an acidic soil?

BostonBull
08-23-2008, 10:55 AM
I get it now!

maybe that's why they recommended such a high amount of lime for me? to counteract the acidity of the Gypsum? starting to make sense. instead of gypsum ill probably just use PHC's Biopack which also will relieve compaction issues.

Kiril
08-23-2008, 11:07 AM
Imaybe that's why they recommended such a high amount of lime for me? to counteract the acidity of the Gypsum?

Probably not. Answer this question and you will understand why you don't need gypsum.

How does gypsum relieve soil compaction?

treegal1
08-23-2008, 11:19 AM
Flocculation................ dang Kiril I tryed................" the lord said I will helps those that help them self's"

wallzwallz
08-23-2008, 01:35 PM
I was under the impression gypsum is neutral and does not effect the PH. I use it for calcium w/out ph change, also for poor drainage, compacted soil. Perhaps I've read up wrong on this but here is one link that is similiar to what I've read about gypsum.
http://www.humeseeds.com/gypsum.htm

Kiril
08-23-2008, 01:38 PM
What is the chemical formula of gypsum?

wallzwallz
08-23-2008, 02:08 PM
CaSO4·2H2O calcium sulfate dihydrate. I get the sulfer, but it states in nonsodic sitiuations it does not change ph. http://cesonoma.ucdavis.edu/hortic/pdf/changing_soil_ph.pdf down on the bottom of page 2.Apparently it won't remove compaction in nonsodic conditions either. But it should add calcium w/out ph no?

JDUtah
08-23-2008, 02:36 PM
I'de think Cape Cod has mostly sodic situations. Interesting stuff though.

BostonBull
08-23-2008, 04:15 PM
OK OK, I'm too tired from working today for riddles. I obviously don't know the answer, or I am looking too far into the question for a deep elaborate answer.

What are you getting at? Why don't I need Gypsum?

JDUtah
08-23-2008, 04:45 PM
Well, compost will help to aggregate your soil better than Gypsum (aggregation helps with compaction), it is usually alkaline and will more directly address your acidity issue (instead of fight against it like Gypsum), you will be utilizing a waste stream, you will be introducing more good microbes to the soil, and you will be saving money. It's like 30 birds with one stone.

Also, you mention that the developer stole your good soil... Good soil has more OM than I bet yours does now. To get a healthy soil you want to add organic matter, not minerals like gymsym.

Kiril, I think that is your que... :)

Kiril
08-23-2008, 05:02 PM
CaSO4·2H2O calcium sulfate dihydrate. I get the sulfer, but it states in nonsodic sitiuations it does not change ph. http://cesonoma.ucdavis.edu/hortic/pdf/changing_soil_ph.pdf down on the bottom of page 2.Apparently it won't remove compaction in nonsodic conditions either. But it should add calcium w/out ph no?

Now we are getting somewhere.

Gypsum can be used to add Ca, but is only recommended in soils near or above neutral pH, since gypsum will not increase the soils pH.

Look at the reaction for sulfur below the one for gypsum in sodic soils. Point is, your adding sulfur to the soil, which will lead to some sulfuric acid production.

In short, don't add products containing sulfur to acid soils.

JDUtah
08-23-2008, 05:09 PM
Awe, I was thinking something more like.. Compost does a soil good... :)

wallzwallz
08-23-2008, 05:26 PM
Kiril, thanks for making me use my brain. I used it in 6.0 and 6.3 ph areas,tested in March,calcitic lime applied end of March and gypsum applied in mid June. I was doing it mainly for the Calcium, but one area has poor drainage and thought it was a bonus if it helped w/ drainage. So I need to find another source of Calcium then. Anyone familiar w/ Calcium 25 or solucal? I am far from an expert on soil management and working w/ soil tests. My soluable salts were 0.17, would that be considered sodic soil? thanks for the help.

Kiril
08-23-2008, 05:51 PM
sodic = sodium. You need to determine your sodium levels to decide if you have a sodic soil.

wallzwallz
08-23-2008, 06:14 PM
Sodium is salt? right ? What does my soluable salt levels from soil test above represent?

JDUtah
08-23-2008, 06:29 PM
Sodium Chloride is "a salt" but is not the only salt. A salt is just a molecule held together by an ionic bond.. when dissolved the independent ions float freely in the solution.. NaCl (table salt) is one such ionicly bound molecules.

Ammonium 'whatever' and 'whatever' Nitrate are Nitrogen salts... there are tons of others... the soluble salts test will include those and not just read which ones are made out of 'sodium ions'...

So included in your salt test are those plant essential nutrients that the plant can actually absorb, and others.

Hope that makes sense.

wallzwallz
08-23-2008, 06:33 PM
Like I said, I am far from an expert on soils. It does make sense.Thanks

greenguy08
08-24-2008, 08:09 PM
oh no is the Ph ghost in here now!!! why does my ignorant extension service keep pushing a 6.5 ph for lawns???? just dont do it,also see about that compost ph??? add the lime to the compost, trust me it works!!!!!

sea weed, water plant, river slime (the green kind) is all the same more or less, grind and store it liquid( better do some research or pay some one to help you do it the first time, or you can make a real mess!!) or dry it and powder it, then when the time comes just add water!! I dont know off the top of my head what it is or does?? exactly..... but it works, the best stuff we had was 6 types of water plant(salt and fresh) the stuff was like nitro for palms and arbocola.

also, microbe can make acid or alkaline, mull that over for one sec??? a herd working day and night to do your work???? ph tester and scope??? get em JD!! do you have a scope??


Sounds like a good way to salinate your soil. You need to rinse saltwater seaweed very well before you use it if you're using anything other than a small amount. The Rodale institute did tons of research on this in the 80s.

treegal1
08-24-2008, 09:40 PM
we dont have to worry about the salt, its there already!!! the wind brings it in!!!!! and to every one else that has coastal access to sea weed, it has salt!!! go figure??