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Tim Wilson
08-21-2008, 07:07 PM
I've posted a little paper with some basic guidelines for ya'll wanting to build your own CT brewers. I hope the moderator lets me away with posting the link here this once. If it is removed, I'll understand.

http://www.microbeorganics.com/#So_You_Wanna_Build_A_Compost_Tea_Brewer

Have fun!

Salutations,
Tim

BTW. No problem with the post removed the other day. I fully expected it.

treegal1
08-22-2008, 12:03 AM
well done Tim, that was excellent!!

If I may be so bold, are there any ideas on a membrane type diffuser? also may I also suggest that as a general rule, 2x the out let size for the tube?? any restriction at all is a real loss. and one more, any one ever try laser holes, in the PVC? we did once it failed bad.

thanks again for your input!!:clapping::clapping:

Kiril
08-22-2008, 01:26 AM
TG, you talking about something like this?

http://www.diffuserexpress.com/diffuser_products.html

treegal1
08-22-2008, 09:32 AM
more or less, just larger, feet not inches............

Tim Wilson
08-22-2008, 11:23 AM
well done Tim, that was excellent!!

If I may be so bold, are there any ideas on a membrane type diffuser? also may I also suggest that as a general rule, 2x the out let size for the tube?? any restriction at all is a real loss. and one more, any one ever try laser holes, in the PVC? we did once it failed bad.

thanks again for your input!!:clapping::clapping:

Hi TG,

I'm a dolt I guess. I don't know what you mean by 'membrane type diffuser'. Do you mean flexible, pliable?

If using diaphragm air pumps, which is all I was addressing, as long as your tubing/pipe is no smaller than the outlet there is no marked restriction of CFM (at least with my flow meter). I have not tested this with regenerative blowers. But thank you for pointing this out. I should make the point that piping/tubing should be at least the size of the pump outlet. 1/2 inch thin walled PVC is actually 5/8 of an inch so I guess I'm covered within the bounds of what I said.

Thank you for your nice comments.
Tim

treegal1
08-22-2008, 11:46 AM
the ones I am speaking of, are neoprene, like th ones Kiril posted a link for, we have a custom one with a larger surface area than normal almost 9 sq feet, the idea being that as the air pressure increases the holes open more like a tire tube with a hole. the back flow or pressure loss with a regenerative blower is even more of a pit fall, 3" pvc will barely handle a re gen blower. At least the size of the opening is a minimum, its like a water pump, small inlet and out let to a giant pipe to distribute? we have air trouble all the time with the heat and all so we go to some extreme measures to keep 500+ gallons at a time cool.:waving:

treegal1
08-22-2008, 11:56 AM
also just want to applaud you on the surface tension that you touched on :clapping::clapping:

Tim Wilson
08-22-2008, 11:58 AM
the ones I am speaking of, are neoprene, like th ones Kiril posted a link for, we have a custom one with a larger surface area than normal almost 9 sq feet, the idea being that as the air pressure increases the holes open more like a tire tube with a hole. the back flow or pressure loss with a regenerative blower is even more of a pit fall, 3" pvc will barely handle a re gen blower. At least the size of the opening is a minimum, its like a water pump, small inlet and out let to a giant pipe to distribute? we have air trouble all the time with the heat and all so we go to some extreme measures to keep 500+ gallons at a time cool.:waving:

Hi Treegal,

Okay, now I get it. I would think these would be a pain to clean. I use a Gast 95 CFM regenerative blower with a 1.5 inch air line. I use multiple Sweetwater 12 inch glass bonded diffusers with no problem but I built my 1200 gallon brewer shallow (28") (above ground swimming pool liner and wooden frame) so there is less back pressure. Also there is greater atmospheric interface for enhanced gas exchange.

Tim

treegal1
08-22-2008, 12:10 PM
no we just turn off the air for a sec and dump some pool chlorine into a cap on top of the anti siphon loop. the wash gets used to clean the spray tanks and then gets used again to was containers and then the floors, after that it gets sewer-ed. and they really don't get to dirty inside as long as the air stays on. If the power goes out the hole's sort of close over and leak little water, we still have an anti siphon loop.

most of the brewers we have made have a large head of water 56" or greater some have almost 120" of water after the diffuser back pressure. mostly with cone tanks.

Kiril
08-22-2008, 12:17 PM
more or less, just larger, feet not inches............

Larger = higher cost. Use as many of these that you need to get your larger unit.

Kiril
08-22-2008, 12:29 PM
1/2 inch thin walled PVC is actually 5/8 of an inch so I guess I'm covered within the bounds of what I said.

Keep in mind, I.D. changes with schedule/class :)

treegal1
08-22-2008, 12:42 PM
the stain less and machine work only cost 34 $ and the neoprene, is a cheap commodity, what do those cost?? 20$ x 8??? if you want to see the buffalo bleed when i squeeze it???

Tim Wilson
08-22-2008, 01:17 PM
Keep in mind, I.D. changes with schedule/class :)

Which is why I specify thin walled PVC.

Kiril
08-22-2008, 01:18 PM
what do those cost??

Depends. The PermaCap5 diffusers (http://www.diffuserexpress.com/catalog/permacap5_diffusers.html) (5") are $7 bucks, but I think the FlexAir Threaded Disc Diffusers (http://www.diffuserexpress.com/catalog/flexair_threaded_disc_diffusers.html) (9") at $16 is the more flexible option because the membranes can be replaced ($8 bucks) or the entire unit if necessary. Saddle mount @ $20 may be the cheaper all around solution one you figure in fitting costs.

Volume pricing will lower the cost naturally.

treegal1
08-22-2008, 01:22 PM
Depends. The PermaCap5 diffusers (http://www.diffuserexpress.com/catalog/permacap5_diffusers.html) (5") are $7 bucks, but I think the FlexAir Threaded Disc Diffusers (http://www.diffuserexpress.com/catalog/flexair_threaded_disc_diffusers.html) (9") at $16 is the more flexible option because the membranes can be replaced ($8 bucks) or the entire unit if necessary. Saddle mount @ $20 may be the cheaper all around solution one you figure in fitting costs.

Volume pricing will lower the cost naturally.
OK thats cool, I will just keep my custom plate for now, I will need a lot of store bought diffusers for 145 cfm, whats the cost diff there??and the sheet neoprene I get with the holes for 3$ I have to cut it.

Kiril
08-22-2008, 01:46 PM
Which is why I specify thin walled PVC.

That was more intended for readers than you since I figured you knew that.

For those needing numbers.

http://www.harvel.com/downloads/spec-pvc-sdr-series.pdf

Kiril
08-22-2008, 01:54 PM
OK thats cool, I will just keep my custom plate for now, I will need a lot of store bought diffusers for 145 cfm, whats the cost diff there??and the sheet neoprene I get with the holes for 3$ I have to cut it.

9" high capacity disc diffuser has a design rating of 1-8 scfm, with a max of 11 scfm.

Perhaps you won't need to push 145 CFM with these? It's all about DO right, and as long as your hit your desired level your OK.

What I like about them is the integrated checks. :clapping:

treegal1
08-22-2008, 02:12 PM
lets see, 1500 gallons x .08==== what about the temp??86 deg F, how am I going to jam all 15 of these things in the tank???? and then clean them???? we also have it set up that the flow will help to hold the bubbles under water longer with a smaller bubble. we capitalized on tons or research oxygenating water for fish.

wallzwallz
08-22-2008, 03:41 PM
I have the 9" disc diffusers, I tried 4 of them in my 100 gallon brewer. They moved some air and really churned it up, but I had better DO readings using 6 12" sweetwater glass bonded. So far my best O2 exchange happened in lower pressure, some movement of water but not a rocking churn.

I have a question about regen blower and pressure gauge. My new pump has a 56" max duty, and I have a pressure gauge that reads 0-60" H2O. Is the idea to keep the pressure under 56" on the gauge? I know it's a stupid question.

treegal1
08-22-2008, 07:50 PM
I have the 9" disc diffusers, I tried 4 of them in my 100 gallon brewer. They moved some air and really churned it up, but I had better DO readings using 6 12" sweetwater glass bonded. So far my best O2 exchange happened in lower pressure, some movement of water but not a rocking churn.

I have a question about regen blower and pressure gauge. My new pump has a 56" max duty, and I have a pressure gauge that reads 0-60" H2O. Is the idea to keep the pressure under 56" on the gauge? I know it's a stupid question.how deep is the tank + the stones = water pressure????

wallzwallz
08-22-2008, 08:19 PM
Tree, it's sitting around 25-30 inch deep and I have 6/ 12inch sweetwater diffusers.I'm trying to figure out where to set the bleed valve, if at all. Without bleed on it's mid 40's, but I seemed to get better O in the water in the high 20's to low 30s. I don't know if that makes any sense.

treegal1
08-22-2008, 08:29 PM
that seems ok I would aim for the 36 mark, the DO2 is the final word!!!!!is that with the compost in it?> I sit on mine and check every 30 -45 mins, paranoid........

JDUtah
08-22-2008, 08:37 PM
Need to hook it up to a digital DO2 sensor, have it kick a second aerator on if it gets to close to lethal numbers... Then an alarm if it still gets worse...

Less effort, same work. :)

(sorry engineering jobs are at the forefront of my mind right now)

wallzwallz
08-22-2008, 08:48 PM
No,just water. I'm so paranoid I am trying to max my air system before brewing. I think I have more pvc than a plumbing supply house. The tank is so small when I put in the center piece to hold the compost bag it leaves little room for air stones. The 4 discs took up so much room it took away the circular flow from the pump. What I would like to make is a circle of pvc w/ 45's, set right at cone level drill it out and cover w/ the EPDM? material. Do you have an online source for that material? thanks for the help

treegal1
08-22-2008, 08:48 PM
we have a monitor system and set up for the large brewer, the 550 that I love to use I just watch real close, it gives me a break from screening compost/worms. and you still need to have a grass and scope on hand to get your #'s on target??? engineer that!!!

JDUtah
08-22-2008, 08:52 PM
haha maybe someday tree! (maybe develop a sensor that monitors different hormones used in quorum sensing. Walk away as it traces how many of what (certain) microbes... now that'd be cool!)

treegal1
08-22-2008, 08:54 PM
No,just water. I'm so paranoid I am trying to max my air system before brewing. I think I have more pvc than a plumbing supply house. The tank is so small when I put in the center piece to hold the compost bag it leaves little room for air stones. The 4 discs took up so much room it took away the circular flow from the pump. What I would like to make is a circle of pvc w/ 45's, set right at cone level drill it out and cover w/ the EPDM? material. Do you have an online source for that material? thanks for the helpthats why I did the one large diff.lolol. also another reason we did away with the bag.lolol.circular flow? horizontal or vert??? with a venturi?, say again???

treegal1
08-22-2008, 09:08 PM
I think this is what you are talking about #1 is the way you want it #2 is my way #3 is how you have it now???

JDUtah
08-22-2008, 09:11 PM
lol bet you had fun drawing number three! wew, wew, wew, swirl, wew! :)

treegal1
08-22-2008, 09:16 PM
on the new ones we have just built for some folks we used the poly tank out let bungs? dont have the word I want. to go around the cone tank just before the cone starts, the pipe is on the outside, 1.5 inch flex pvc and 20 of those flat plate type, the side entry ones just set around the tank. your small tank? maybe a dual arm to hold the plates in place and a open center???you got my e mail? maybe share a pic???

treegal1
08-22-2008, 09:18 PM
lol bet you had fun drawing number three! wew, wew, wew, swirl, wew! :) dont complain, help me set up a web site and do the drawings, photos and heck i dont even know what I want, LOLOL:laugh:

JDUtah
08-22-2008, 09:21 PM
sorry i meant good by it.. good use of resources! I just pictured a "wew wew wew" as you did the swirls.. I would have said it out loud... In fact I might have while i was imagining. :) haha I've been sitting too long today.

PS, I am taking note of the important stuff you guys are talking about too.. so thanks!

treegal1
08-22-2008, 09:26 PM
hey I think its funny,lolol, lower the dose it may help with the mental pictures, lolol.

hey also I am the one dishing out most time! I had better be able to take what I give!!!!

was that important??? LOLOLOL

JDUtah
08-22-2008, 09:26 PM
haha!
&
haha!

wallzwallz
08-22-2008, 09:27 PM
Yes, it swirls in 1 direction around the center piece.The disks had to be mounted vertically and stacked to 1 side. The diffusers I am using now are the glass bonded sticks. The pics are close. I think I will have to take a few pics. The hardest part is the small opening on the brewer and figuring how to support the diffusers.

treegal1
08-22-2008, 09:27 PM
cheers mates!!!!!:drinkup::drinkup::jester::drinkup::drinkup:

treegal1
08-22-2008, 09:29 PM
Yes, it swirls in 1 direction around the center piece.The disks had to be mounted vertically and stacked to 1 side. The diffusers I am using now are the glass bonded sticks. The pics are close. I think I will have to take a few pics. The hardest part is the small opening on the brewer and figuring how to support the diffusers. yes thats where the experience comes in, that and no fear if drilling holes in a poly cone!!dang small brewers LOLOL

wallzwallz
08-22-2008, 09:38 PM
It took me that long to type the last message there was like 6 posts.Yes pics are coming tomorrow. Did you email me? I am off for the evening, thanks for all the help, hopefully pics will make the point I can't describe.

Tim Wilson
08-23-2008, 11:46 AM
Wallzwallz,

Did you read the paper which started this thread? It sounds to me as if you are trying to use too many diffusers in such a small brewer. You need a simple design.
What is the CFM of your blower?

Tim

growingdeeprootsorganicly
08-23-2008, 12:12 PM
tree,

does your diffuser sit flush with the sides of the cone? what do you use to make the seal between the diffuser and tank if thats how you have it?

could you tell us how you secure the diffuser down? is it threaded at the bottom of the diffuser as to screw it into a female fitting at the bottom of the tank?
basically screwing it down tightening it flush against the sides maybe?

treegal1
08-23-2008, 12:43 PM
big brewer........

treegal1
08-23-2008, 12:45 PM
small one,

treegal1
08-23-2008, 12:48 PM
y'all need to have a beer and a shot and relax and do this as simple as possible, A 9 year old saw the chem fitting that gets used for the large one, sooooooo just don't start a whole mess of plumbing, but add a anti siphon loop!!!!

Kiril
08-23-2008, 12:50 PM
Remind me not to employ you as an artist. :laugh:

JDUtah
08-23-2008, 12:53 PM
wew wew wew swirl wew!

wallzwallz
08-23-2008, 02:22 PM
Tim, yes that would be me over doing it.Here is the specs on my blower http://www.aquaticeco.com/images/static/pump-curves/S11.gif I have the s31 pump. I was having trouble keeping DO up in the hot weather.So in the Tim Allen man way of thinking I got a bigger pump and more air stones. I just got back from looking at an aerator and shopping, I will try and get out and get some pics of my mess and give you guys a good laugh.

growingdeeprootsorganicly
08-23-2008, 02:34 PM
tree,
aaaaahhhh........!

i think i understand? do you use a water pump or air lift?
since you brew in free suspension i was wondering how you dealt with the compost if it fell under the diffuser? does it circulate back up? to the top perhaps?

your first pic " great rendition i might add:)" under the diffuser, is that pvc drilled?

wallzwallz
08-23-2008, 06:06 PM
Some Pics of my mess. 1st pic is first upgrade attempt w/ manifold and hoses.2nd is the original airstones minus 1 lol 3rd is the disc stack 4th is in there now and 5th is how close center piece is.Hopefully I made you chuckle and you will be able to help me get max DO2

treegal1
08-23-2008, 08:36 PM
tree,
aaaaahhhh........!

i think i understand? do you use a water pump or air lift?
since you brew in free suspension i was wondering how you dealt with the compost if it fell under the diffuser? does it circulate back up? to the top perhaps?

your first pic " great rendition i might add:)" under the diffuser, is that pvc drilled?pump and venturi, with the regen blower, we did some stainless, but pvc for the ones we sell.

treegal1
08-23-2008, 08:40 PM
wallz, wow!!! the plumber's union called, they want there dues.LOLOL get those plates flat of ya can, that bag holder on the middle whats that for the bag???? why not just hang it from the top?

wallzwallz
08-24-2008, 10:34 AM
Tree, yes I am a primer nightmare. The way the disks are in picture was the only way to mount because of the bag holder. They hung the same way on top, not laying flat. Do you see how the airstones are off atee and bend w/ the 45 angle? What if I made a circle,octagon? w/ 8 45 angles that sat off the tee just at the cone top. Drill out the pvc between joints and wrap in the EPDM material? In your experience would that be a good airstone or not really? thanks Mike

treegal1
08-24-2008, 10:48 AM
ok so first pvc can ba heated and bent real easy, 2) what about just some good old pvc and a drill?? we have been messing around last night and found a cone shaped drillbit, the holes it makes are real fine. we are filling the brewer now as we speak.........edpm, it just dont like to be joined, seemed at all.

whats the diameter of your tank, let me see if I can help?

bee back in a few 10:00 sun

wallzwallz
08-24-2008, 11:11 AM
I didn't even think about the seam, my tank is 30" inside diameter, but the opening on top is 10 1/2". That's why I needed the unions, I can't mount the discs until I assemble the pipe inside the tank and 1 disk just fits thru the opening.

treegal1
08-24-2008, 01:01 PM
wallz, back to the drawing board? how about one piece of pipe?? no unions??heat gun and some pipe?? shaped like these(?) except the the stem of the question mark goes up instead of towards the side??????????? just hook it on there and screw on the diffs??? tread the shcd 40 pipe to fit the diff???????


?

wallzwallz
08-24-2008, 01:41 PM
Yes, back to drawing board. I think i will have to shorten center piece or remove all together. Out to the garage I go. thanks again

wallzwallz
08-24-2008, 05:49 PM
Here is my latest try. I will have to trim the center piece about 8-12". My water sucks, 70-80 ppm TDS and 7.3 DO , 23 degrees celcius to start. I think I will bring some well water home for next brew.

Kiril
08-25-2008, 12:24 AM
Why not point those down so they agitate the bottom of the container?

treegal1
08-25-2008, 01:52 AM
Why not point those down so they agitate the bottom of the container?yes that and chop some of the gray pipe off!! is there a venturi on the pump(water) or is that just a stir?? you know that most fittings can just be put together and run a few times without any glue?? 5 psi max?? after you get all the kinks worked out and a nice setup all fit and fixed then mark the fittings with a sharpie and then glue them together????

it looks good so far, are you going to have to cut or go without the center PVC with holes?? I don't even know what that's for??? does it hold the brew bag???will a shorter, what ever it is work??? almost all the ones that we have seen in the small range us the lid of the poly tank and a paint strainer??

Kiril
08-25-2008, 10:40 AM
And perhaps flip that union.

Tim Wilson
08-25-2008, 11:55 AM
If I were building a brewer with this tank (from what I can see, it is cone shaped and drains out bottom), I'd build a variation of Steven Storch's vortex brewer, using the 12 inch Sweetwater diffusers and whatever size pipe they will fit into. Don't clutter up your tank with all that pipe and crap. I would also cut away most of the top so you have a wider opening. I'd put compost in free suspension. Forget the extractor. With those big diffusers above the cone, you are going to have a dead zone in the bottom. The idea is to circulate all the water, all the time.

You do not aerate water more efficiently by just stuffing it with diffusers. Move the water. Simple is better.

treegal1
08-25-2008, 12:34 PM
Tim, we had it in our mind that the idea of a cone tank was to pull all that dead area to the top and recirculate it, at least that's the idea we are going with. is this a good way to go or is this an area of concern even with a pump?? also we have tryed to get ever one to put the pipe out side the brewer.LOLOL

DUSTYCEDAR
08-25-2008, 12:42 PM
Thanks Tim Great Links

treegal1
08-25-2008, 01:20 PM
here for all the plumbing guru's this is a vortex, it is basically an air lift systemx4 with a twist. looks like a great small brewer....................
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0dI0GJbiRE

Tim Wilson
08-25-2008, 01:37 PM
here for all the plumbing guru's this is a vortex, it is basically an air lift systemx4 with a twist. looks like a great small brewer....................
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0dI0GJbiRE

Yes, this is basically what I would do with a cone shaped tank. An engineering mind will think of a tidier way to incorporate the diffusers and you can choose to use 4 return pipes, 2 or 1. This can be applied to any size of tank. It is not so much the vortex activity which is good but the complete circulation of the water.

I have filed a US/CD patent on something slightly similar.

wallzwallz
08-25-2008, 10:02 PM
Thanks for everyones input. I agree about the clutter in the tank, was drawing a creative blank. That video was cool Tree, thanks.Yes the center piece holds my bag of compost. So, I should pull everything out of tank, split my water pump out pipe into 4 pipes, put a tee at top of each, drop an airstone down top of each tee and water enters into tank from middle of tee above water?

treegal1
08-26-2008, 11:29 AM
this is an air lift for 1550 gallons, we are setting up a new 1550 south of us. this is the same one we use in our big brewer.it just has a drilled pipe orifice

treegal1
08-26-2008, 02:26 PM
wallz, if you have a pump and venturi and that much air whats the trouble??? the pump will pull from the bottom and bring it back to the top with more air!!! or u can use the air you already running and use the air lift, the only real +s to that are free brewing(no bag) and no more pump power needed, the re gen will last almost forever. one air lift is all that you need, just come out of the bottom and add air, as the air raises it will be lighter that the water in the tank(added air) so the tank water will push out and the air and water goes back into the tank. you only need one, the 3 " one I posted above will drain the 1550 in about 10 minutes with 12 cfm of air.... use some 2" flex pvc if you dont want to heat some sch40 then all you need is the 3 in the tank and no more clutter, no bag or holder or any thing just one real nice air drive system, yada yada so you got to filter out the big chunks at the time of use, you will only need a small amount of compost, and its also easy to tie the bag onto the air lift and recapture the compost.

Tim Wilson
08-26-2008, 04:06 PM
wallz, if you have a pump and venturi and that much air whats the trouble??? the pump will pull from the bottom and bring it back to the top with more air!!! or u can use the air you already running and use the air lift, the only real +s to that are free brewing(no bag) and no more pump power needed, the re gen will last almost forever. one air lift is all that you need, just come out of the bottom and add air, as the air raises it will be lighter that the water in the tank(added air) so the tank water will push out and the air and water goes back into the tank. you only need one, the 3 " one I posted above will drain the 1550 in about 10 minutes with 12 cfm of air.... use some 2" flex pvc if you dont want to heat some sch40 then all you need is the 3 in the tank and no more clutter, no bag or holder or any thing just one real nice air drive system, yada yada so you got to filter out the big chunks at the time of use, you will only need a small amount of compost, and its also easy to tie the bag onto the air lift and recapture the compost.

BRAVO! BRAVO! :drinkup:

wallzwallz
08-26-2008, 10:39 PM
Many thanks TG and Tim, have a long weekend coming, will try and work it out.