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srm077
08-22-2008, 04:05 PM
Any ideas on a organic starter fert...? This is the only weakness in my soon to be tested program.

Thanks in advance.

phasthound
08-22-2008, 05:39 PM
Any ideas on a organic starter fert...? This is the only weakness in my soon to be tested program.

Thanks in advance.

I have an organic based starter fert; Nutrients PLUS Super 8, 5-8-5, 50% SRN with 2% Ca, 3% S, 15 Fe, 50% OM
40 lb bag covers 5,000 to 10,000sq ft
Shipped direct, pallet sales only.

or ICT Organics HydroSeed liquid seed inoculant.

treegal1
08-22-2008, 07:01 PM
the best starter fert in my book is worm casts...............

weren't we supposed to fix the soil first. any ways, start the AM off early and they will do good. Barry whats the minimum on casts?? one ton???

srm077
08-22-2008, 08:28 PM
Thanks Barry- sound like a great product, a pallet is a bit much for a small timer like me though. Do you have any dealers that sell and ship smaller amounts of your products?

DeepGreenLawn
08-22-2008, 09:31 PM
I got a pallet last week and have already used more than half so far. That is only one treatment about 50 customers. It goes by a lot faster than you think.

Next year when I get 300+ I may just get a truck load... a good problem to have?

What makes for a good "winterizer"/ what do you do to prep for the winter with organics? UP... new thread... sorry...

phasthound
08-23-2008, 07:18 PM
the best starter fert in my book is worm casts...............

weren't we supposed to fix the soil first. any ways, start the AM off early and they will do good. Barry whats the minimum on casts?? one ton???

Worm castings rock!! There is nothing like it for promoting plant health care.

We ship by the pallet, bagged or bulk.

treegal1
08-23-2008, 07:32 PM
cool I will pass your info along, some one in Maine ask me about shipping some, I told em I can save em some shipping........

DeepGreenLawn
08-23-2008, 09:04 PM
at what rate do you apply worm casts? For a start fert type deal such as when over seeding.

treegal1
08-23-2008, 09:08 PM
deep thats a good question, we use a whole sh*t load per piece, or around a heap in a yard. lolol I have never thought about that??? maybe the same a fert??? 200lbs per K, make something up that sounds good and try that!!!!!

JDUtah
08-23-2008, 09:36 PM
I have a calculator on my site... get the nutrinet results for the vermicompost and play with the calculator... Look up starter fert recomendations and play with the application numbers on the calc till you get them to match recomendations... that would be your application rate.. That's what I would do anyway.

treegal1
08-23-2008, 09:41 PM
ok so how about a .0002 N and yes this will grow almost anything even mixed with sand 50/50 so knock your self out. you have missed the point me thinks...

JDUtah
08-23-2008, 09:53 PM
haha maybe.

JDUtah
08-23-2008, 09:55 PM
What about the P.. isn't that that important thing for starter fert? Does it have a P value.. please? :)

Hmmm... I don't know if I will ever completely get rid of the fert mindset. :cry:

treegal1
08-23-2008, 10:17 PM
does a seed start is sterile distilled water???????

DeepGreenLawn
08-24-2008, 05:50 AM
Hmmm... I don't know if I will ever completely get rid of the fert mindset. :cry:

you will get there, it will just hit you one day...

phasthound
08-24-2008, 07:58 AM
What about the P.. isn't that that important thing for starter fert? Does it have a P value.. please? :)

Hmmm... I don't know if I will ever completely get rid of the fert mindset. :cry:

Back in '94 some in the scientific community were starting to realize the significance of microbial activity in relation to fertility. See attachment. In a follow-up study, Dr. Edwards compared results between sterilized and non-sterilized worm castings. The non-sterilized castings performed better, proving results were due to microbial activity.

JDUtah
08-25-2008, 10:32 AM
Back in '94 some in the scientific community were starting to realize the significance of microbial activity in relation to fertility. See attachment. In a follow-up study, Dr. Edwards compared results between sterilized and non-sterilized worm castings. The non-sterilized castings performed better, proving results were due to microbial activity.

You might want to be more selective about the quotes you picked out for that paper...

"What comes out the back end of the earthworm is one hundred times more microbially active than whatís going in the front end"

"Research that I and others have done shows that microbial activity in worm castings is 10 to 20 times higher than in the soil and organic matter that the worm ingests."

Can you lead me to his follow up study please?

Marcos
08-25-2008, 10:56 AM
the best starter fert in my book is worm casts...............

weren't we supposed to fix the soil first. any ways, start the AM off early and they will do good. Barry whats the minimum on casts?? one ton???

Folks here may want to check their local Wal-Marts for any end-of-the-season closeout deals they could have on worm casting overstock.

I'm not by any means a big user of this product...but last week, I picked up fifty 10# bags of castings there, for only 89 cents each.

treegal1
08-25-2008, 11:37 AM
Folks here may want to check their local Wal-Marts for any end-of-the-season closeout deals they could have on worm casting overstock.

I'm not by any means a big user of this product...but last week, I picked up fifty 10# bags of castings there, for only 89 cents each.if it was good casts you will be a fan soon. great deal!!! you cleaned up!!

Marcos
08-25-2008, 11:58 AM
if it was good casts you will be a fan soon. great deal!!! you cleaned up!!


I don't see why they wouldn't be "good".
They are packaged by a company called DMF, and were on skids in a part of Wal-Mart's garden center that's out of the sun and the elements.
They just had a s***-load of it left! (pun intended :))

At this point, I wouldn't know what to do with a TON of it.

Just for toots and giggles, how much does a ton generally run, including shipping?

phasthound
08-25-2008, 02:01 PM
You might want to be more selective about the quotes you picked out for that paper...

"What comes out the back end of the earthworm is one hundred times more microbially active than whatís going in the front end"

"Research that I and others have done shows that microbial activity in worm castings is 10 to 20 times higher than in the soil and organic matter that the worm ingests."

Can you lead me to his follow up study please?

Here's a good place to start.
http://iris.biosci.ohio-state.edu/osuent/personnel/edwards.html

treegal1
08-25-2008, 02:10 PM
we get 350$ per ton bulk no shipping,we have seen shipped prices from 600-2400 per ton............

phasthound
08-25-2008, 02:23 PM
I don't see why they wouldn't be "good".
They are packaged by a company called DMF, and were on skids in a part of Wal-Mart's garden center that's out of the sun and the elements.
They just had a s***-load of it left! (pun intended :))

At this point, I wouldn't know what to do with a TON of it.

Just for toots and giggles, how much does a ton generally run, including shipping?

Figure about $550.00 for 50x40lb bags including shipping to Ohio. A 1 ton bulk sack is about $495.00 to Ohio.

Kiril
08-25-2008, 10:29 PM
:cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry:

Marcos
08-25-2008, 10:46 PM
Figure about $550.00 for 50x40lb bags including shipping to Ohio. A 1 ton bulk sack is about $495.00 to Ohio.

Holy Monkey!
For worm poop?

I really drilled ol' Sam Walton pretty good, then! :laugh:

treegal1
08-25-2008, 10:50 PM
and if you seen how fast we (the worms) make the stuff you would faint!!!!!

phasthound
08-29-2008, 06:41 PM
deep thats a good question, we use a whole sh*t load per piece, or around a heap in a yard. lolol I have never thought about that??? maybe the same a fert??? 200lbs per K, make something up that sounds good and try that!!!!!

Holy Monkey!
For worm poop?

I really drilled ol' Sam Walton pretty good, then! :laugh:

You got a good price. I hope it's still good.

Shipping costs are most of the problem, but good luck finding it for less on a regular basis. Hopefully someday there will be more local suppliers.

Anyway it's the results that are amazing. It's good sh*t, man! Most of the time recommendations call for 1/4 " top dress. Dr. Ingham recommends "a dusting".

JDUtah
08-29-2008, 07:14 PM
Hey in study, it seems worms waste contribute to aggregation more so than microbe excretions..

Just .02 added

phasthound
08-29-2008, 08:38 PM
JD,

Please don't take any offense, I'm curious about how much work do you do in the field?

treegal1
08-29-2008, 08:46 PM
this I got to hear........

JDUtah
08-29-2008, 09:57 PM
Haha, well before I walked away form my partnership, it was around 25-30 hours in the 'tech' field weekly. But not organics. Mowing, fertilizing, pest control, irrigation repair, mulch, etc, etc, etc. The fact I wanted to go organic is partly why I walked away. I do not plan to start my organic maintenance company until spring of 2010. That way I have it clearly defined what I want to do, etc. You could say I'm the exact opposite from DGL, lol. Partly because the things I learned from my first go around.

Plus, read E-Myth Revisited by Micheal Gerber and you might see why I am spending so much time and detail on the little things.

Why you ask? :laugh:

treegal1
08-29-2008, 10:04 PM
I dont know maybe page 86 the top ?????? have you finished it yet???

JDUtah
08-29-2008, 10:11 PM
Finished it twice over, don't have it currently cause the partner wanted it. What wisdom you got for me?

treegal1
08-29-2008, 10:13 PM
that most buissness plans stay on the shelf. some time ya got to do what it takes to make $$$$.

JDUtah
08-29-2008, 10:29 PM
Read the part about systems?

treegal1
08-29-2008, 11:04 PM
yes all 3!!!ch.18, pg 235. sorry I have memory issues.LOLOL

DeepGreenLawn
08-29-2008, 11:25 PM
You could say I'm the exact opposite from DGL, lol.

LOL, thanks... like tree said... I can sit here and plan all year or for years, getting ready to do business to me is the most fun... getting out there and doing the work... well, that is the whole pont right?

Yeah, you may not hit as many bumps and trip as many times as I have, BUT, I have made it through and am starting to get things squared away... and made a little money along the way.

I am starting to plan a new branch all together, another jump in because the dead line to start is fast approaching... but I have some guys to help that are more qualified...

I guess the second time is the charm? Hopefully this one will go a lot smoother... ;)

ICT Bill
08-30-2008, 12:53 AM
JD, I love your input but am a little confused, I am not quite sure where you are headed, a little insight would be appreciated

Systems are system, tell that to the people that have to get it done

Imagine yourself saying to someone that works with you....It is the system !

what if their input at that moment, is actually the way to turn it from a system to a place that you have never imagined

Imagine, is a much better thought

A friend of mine told me early on, forget the business plan, just get it done.

You are basically flogging the dolphin if you aren't out getting it done.

NattyLawn
08-30-2008, 07:48 AM
Plus, read E-Myth Revisited by Micheal Gerber and you might see why I am spending so much time and detail on the little things.

Why you ask? :laugh:

Isn't the gist of the book that not all good or even great technicians (not lawn care related, but business in general) make good business owners? It's been awhile since I read that, and have read a lot more since.

Most lawn care techs you talk to think they could easily run their own businesses, including myself. But most techs have no idea how to run their business or know their true costs, and in the end don't make money. I learned so much from my current employer and in the end, maybe owning my own business isn't for me at this time. Taking the time to set up everything up right is great if that works for you. A solid foundation is a good start.

DeepGreenLawn
08-30-2008, 09:23 AM
Owning your own business...

Really, it shouldn't matter what your doing, if you know how to own and run a business and have it be successful, then what your doing doesn't matter.

I am pretty sure that just about every business has the same principles and tactics as any business. Yeah, you need to know what your doing, but that is just the small part of having a succesful business. There is a TON more to it than just that.

Kiril
08-30-2008, 09:35 AM
I hate paperwork!

DeepGreenLawn
08-30-2008, 09:57 AM
LOL, I do too, and I am HORRIBLE at it. So I hired someone to do it for me... had to, otherwise the business would not last next spring...

I can do it... well, no... I can't... I have to have someone do it for me... if I HAD to I could now being the person I hired has it under control now and it won't be so hard to keep up with it. Just this past spring, and this next one will hopefully be 1000 times worse, I was working and putting out so many estimates I couldn't hardly keep it all straight.

It took my new person 20 straight hours just to get the scheduling down and we are still having to work out the kinks. But it is getting there and she is able to work from home ideally just a few hours a week. But without it the business would not be running smoothly AT ALL.

Starting two weeks from now when we finally have everything under control we are going to have monthly meetings where we go over all the different reports and stuff.

JDUtah
08-30-2008, 10:26 AM
@ DGL,
No offense intended! Hope none was taken. Everyone needs to do business in a way that suits them. We just have different flavors. You said, "I am starting to plan a new branch all together, another jump in because the dead line to start is fast approaching... but I have some guys to help that are more qualified..." That partly explains why I am waiting another year. I am in no way prepared for things to start this coming spring. (I don't know if I ever updated you, I walked away form my half of the biz completely. Things got too heated between us and I finally said our family relationship is more important. So I walked away.) So yes, I need another year to get things lined up.

Also IMO not every business has the same principles and tactics. Some businesses are built to make the founder (or share holders) money without him(them) being in the field, others are built where he is the only one in the field, and others are a mix. It all depends on what you wanna build, what work you wanna do, how long you want to do it, etc.

@ Natty,
You hit it on the head. The entrepreneurial myth itself is the technician who gets this grand idea to start his own business, but the dream dies as he does with all the other NECESSARY work that goes with running/building a good business. And yes, Technicians are not good fits for starting companies, innovators are... managers are necessary too. Micheal Gerber says to be most effective you must learn the balance between the three. If you know you are technician, it is smart to stay in the technician role. (Tree, I might change my opinion about your style and new business adventure, you indeed are an innovator, and tech, and I haven't been out there yet to observe, but I bet manager as well.)

@ Bill,
If you are referring to my website? That s basically my way of figuring out what I want to do with my business. But in my mind I want my business to be running in more than 2 states withing 10 years of start up, and growing without me involved one bit, so I can work on other endeavors.

Yep people are important, and if you read the part about his visit to the hotel in California, you find that you need systems to handle people. You need a hiring system to be able to weed through the potential employee's AND to instill the right visin inside the ones you do hire.

Yes, part of a good business includes listening to your employee's ideas, if you are not going to be managing the employees yourself, you need a system to get the ideas to the right people on top. Systems are what run this world, run life, run the process of a compost pile... But in business it is important to know that people are what run systems, that's why the people strategy is the most important. I dove in without a people strategy once and learned my lesson.. I'm gonna do a little better job this time. And better the next, and better the next. :)

@ Kiril,
Lol paperwork does suck, and I don't plan on much of it. Read that part about the hotel and watch how the founder implemented great systems with minimal paperwork for his employees. A hotel room can be replaced for a property. Talk about effective.

@ Deep again,
Good luck next year!

All in all, do what suits you, and do what you know you need to. I need to prepare for another year.

DeepGreenLawn
08-30-2008, 10:32 AM
Crap... I can never get what I want or mean to say across the right way... This REALLY hurts when something comes out the wrong way with my wife...

What I meant was business is business... not the ultimate goal, the everyday stuff, each business has to advertise, do booking, scheduling, bills, paperwork, taxes, stock, run the numbers, reports... P&L stuff...

Things that every business no matter what you do, has to be done. The basics of running a company are the same no matter what you do.

Maybe this made more since?

And this "second branch" is not a second lawn care company, it's a second company all together? A seasonal thing that I can do when business is down... suppose to make me good money too...

"suppose to":rolleyes: