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NightLightingFX
08-22-2008, 06:26 PM
I have a commercal fountain I might do. This is a two bowl fountain top bowl 6' diameter, bottom bowl 9' diameter all in a black bottomed pool 24' in diameter 1.5'' deep. I thought the Kichler 15191 was a proven underwater fixture (kind of big and ugly), but if it is concealed who cares as long as the fixture works. Have any of you had problems with this fixture. I have seen and felt it but never used it. What do you guys think?
~Ned

TXNSLighting
08-22-2008, 06:49 PM
Use a real fixture...Unique Nautilus! :cool2:

NightLightingFX
08-22-2008, 07:02 PM
Couple problems with the nautilus, 1) it is stainless steel it won't blend in to the back background of the pool floor, 2) Very expensive. I have a tight budget for this project. 3) I kind of like the twist lock action of Kichlers 15191 vs. the the fastening bolts of the nautilus. I would like to know if anyone has had problems with the kichler 15191.
~Ned

Chris J
08-22-2008, 07:11 PM
I've had problems with the 190 which is the same thing without the base. However, my problems were not in a submerged application. I used the fixtures a long time ago in open grass areas to light trees when no beds existed. I found a lot of leaking issues and I'm still pulling them out today. I will say this, I've talked to others who have used it underwater with great success.

ccfree
08-22-2008, 07:27 PM
I have a commercal fountain I might do. This is a two bowl fountain top bowl 6' diameter, bottom bowl 9' diameter all in a black bottomed pool 24' in diameter 1.5'' deep. I thought the Kichler 15191 was a proven underwater fixture (kind of big and ugly), but if it is concealed who cares as long as the fixture works. Have any of you had problems with this fixture. I have seen and felt it but never used it. What do you guys think?
~Ned

Hey Ned, check these underwater fixtures out from FX Luminare. This is a new fixture and has been working great. Check it out on their website. Hope this helps. You can get it in an MR-16 or MR-11

NightLightingFX
08-22-2008, 07:29 PM
Dang!
The response I am getting isn't too reasuring. I talked to James earlier, he said he has had problems with them in the past. To me they look VERY solid, and Jerry says they haven't had problems with them. I really can't afford to use anything else, but I also can't afford to have a bunch of problems either. Doing this project might get me a lot of attention. I just want to make sure it doesn't turn into that problem project.
~Ned

Chris J
08-22-2008, 07:31 PM
Well bud, you can't have it both ways. Either it's going to be really good and expensive, or not so good and inexpensive. Choose your poison.

NightLightingFX
08-22-2008, 07:55 PM
Another advantage the kichler 15191 has regarding this application vs. the nautilus and the FX fixture is that it has a Big Beefy and heavy mount that won't move around at all. Plus the fixture is bigger. In this case that is good, my light source will be close to the surface of the water shinning up into the cascading sheet of water coming down. Maybe it will be alright if I use this fixture? I am kind of thinking that this fixture might be the right choice for function. I just hope it performs as a quality underwater fixture should.

The Lighting Geek
08-22-2008, 10:02 PM
I have not used the kichler water fixture, but I have used the nautilus and most other underwater lights. The Nautilus is by far the best I have used. It is nice and heavy and the adjustments are smooth. That puppy won't move once you put it where you want it. There are no short cuts when it comes to underwater lights, and the better ones are expensive. One trip back with a leaking fixture and you have paid for the better fixture anyway.

Lite4
08-22-2008, 10:52 PM
Vista has a couple decent underwater lights that are modestly priced. I have used both the puck style and the MR 16 fixture. The puck style can be a problem if it is not fully submerged underwater but the MR fixture has been trouble free.

NightLightingFX
08-22-2008, 11:43 PM
Do any of you guys have some pics of lighted fountains, the different level bowl type? or know of some web sites that have some good pics of fountains.
~Ned

TXNSLighting
08-23-2008, 12:01 AM
Another advantage the kichler 15191 has regarding this application vs. the nautilus and the FX fixture is that it has a Big Beefy and heavy mount that won't move around at all. Plus the fixture is bigger. In this case that is good, my light source will be close to the surface of the water shinning up into the cascading sheet of water coming down. Maybe it will be alright if I use this fixture? I am kind of thinking that this fixture might be the right choice for function. I just hope it performs as a quality underwater fixture should.

Why didnt you budget for a good light?? You gotta charge what it costs to get the good stuff

Eden Lights
08-23-2008, 12:59 AM
I have used Focus in the water for 9 years without any problems, change the gasket out every time you open the fixture.

Chris J
08-23-2008, 01:16 AM
good advice there.

Pro-Scapes
08-23-2008, 10:00 AM
zero probs with the 15191 here. Make sure its clean when you seal it up and all is well.

Coppermoon has one thats pretty nice too but you will need to contact them and see if they have done anything with filling the wire entry point with a potting material yet.

The nautilus is a NICE light. I agree tho if the client has spent this much on a huge fountain there should be a proper budget to do the job right. Labor is the same with a plastic light or a great light.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
08-23-2008, 10:28 AM
I have never had any issue with using Nightscaping Vermeer's or Wrightliter's in an underwater application. I prefer the Vermeer but it is a rather expensive unit. (You do get what you pay for.)

The gasket they use is awesome and even after repeated servicing the fixture does not leak.

Now, if you really want "da bomb" in underwater fixtures, look to Hydrel.

Regards.

NightLightingFX
08-23-2008, 12:48 PM
Why didnt you budget for a good light?? You gotta charge what it costs to get the good stuff
That is a messed-up question. I am not in charge of the budget. The customer called me up at the last minute wanting advice on incorporate a lighting plan for a fountain they are building. This will be at the enterance of a high profile conduminium complex. I know they are willing to spend $3000, I may be able to get a little more out of them $4000 max. Doing a job like this will get me a lot of exposure - Commercial contractors, the public eye, & plus some experience with a large fountian. I am planning on using 20 fixtures. 5 on the bottom bowl, 3 on the 2nd bowl, 2 on the top water fountain, & 10 pointing in from the outside or I may point 5 out and 5 in (I am open to suggestions). Anyway, the point is 20 x Unique Natilus $450+ ea. we are talking about a job over $10,000. If you can figure out how to BUDGET that in to your cost, then you are one hell of an accountant. My question to you is how many high profile fountains have you done where you personally budgeted in $10,000+ to do the lighting?
~Ned

NightLightingFX
08-23-2008, 01:07 PM
Billy & Eddie,
Thanks for the reasuring word on the Kichler 15191 fixture. I have also heard good things about the focus underwater fixture. I am going to plan on using these two fixtures. They will work in the budget. I will make sure that I change out & grease every gasket when servicing. I love Unique but come on, we have to be realistic. The natilus is 4 times more expensive than the focus fixture.

NightLightingFX
08-23-2008, 01:36 PM
Here is a fountain I saw off of www.outdoorillumination.com. I am thinking of doing the same thing. My fountain is going to be a lot bigger so I will need more lights. But the effect they got on pointing the 4 lights out looks nice. My pool will be 24' diameter. If I point lights out from the center, the outside perimeter of the pool might be neglected. If I point lights from the outside in then I will probably be able to tie-in the whole pool and fountain togather. I just thought this out loud and I think I have my answere. Thanks James on the idea of pointing lights from the outside in.
~Ned

NightLightingFX
08-23-2008, 01:43 PM
I realize that $3500 for a poject of this size is tight. But I am willing to absorb the cost, for the exposure. This project will get me a lot of exposure. I just have to make sure the products I use don't make me look bad.
~Ned

NightLightingFX
08-23-2008, 01:45 PM
Any other design ideas?

Pro-Scapes
08-23-2008, 03:30 PM
I realize that $3500 for a poject of this size is tight. But I am willing to absorb the cost, for the exposure. This project will get me a lot of exposure. I just have to make sure the products I use don't make me look bad.
~Ned

Your approaching this all wrong. Your banking it will yield you excellent exposure. What kind of exposure will it yield you when it doesnt work 3 months from now because you ended up with water in all your fixtures. You cant help what a quality fixture costs and the size of the project.

Think about it. Your lining yourself up for BAD exposure if your project doesnt perform and your materials selection is sub par. Give it to them both ways and explain with the huge investment in the water feature it would be a shame to use sub standard equipment. There are also alot of quality underwater lights for less than 450. One of the huge benifits of the unique is its ability to go extra deep and withstand the pressures. Joey can chime in but I think its up to 8 ft.

If your going to be placing the fixture in the drop zone of the water your also going to have extra pressure so I would definatly go for a better light. While I have had no problems with the 15191 none of them are directly in the line of fire of a water fall

Without seeing it I got no input on design. See if you can find the drawings if its not built yet. Maybe tommy has some wild fiber optic solution for you

sprinklerchris
08-23-2008, 03:56 PM
Vista has a couple decent underwater lights that are modestly priced. I have used both the puck style and the MR 16 fixture. The puck style can be a problem if it is not fully submerged underwater but the MR fixture has been trouble free.

Ditto. 5217 Vista = MR-16, composite housing. http://www.vistapro.com/Product.aspx?ProdID=176&CatID=1&typeID=19

NightLightingFX
08-23-2008, 04:32 PM
Billy,
That is my delema, I don't want to use something that will create a big head ache, and give me negative press. But it would be nice to get this job. Not from a profit stand point, but for exposure, and experience. I have never done a fountain of this magnitude before. The specs on this project are: it is a two bowl fountain - top bowl 6' diameter, bottom bowl 9' diameter. The fountain is in a 24' circular pool 1.5' feet deep all in a black bottomed. The Kichler fixtures are 5' tall and they will be in 1.5 feet depth with a
1' buffer from falling water. You aren't sounding 100% confident in the Kichler fixtures. Eddie has done a lot of increadable work if he has had success with the focus fixture that may be the way to go. However, I kind of liked the features of the kichler fixture. All black to blend in with the bottom of the pool, and larger than other fixtures - The light source will be closer to the surface of the water / falling water. But when it comes to using something that will last. That needs to be the 1st requirement. If I can't use the minimum level of quality equipment to make this work then I will have to walk away from the project. I am just trying to find something that I can be confident in and be reasonably priced. Lets be realistic a Unique Nautilus is WAY TOO expensive. I love Unique but I am not going to price myself out of this opportunity.
~Ned

NightLightingFX
08-23-2008, 04:34 PM
thanks for the input on the Vista underwater fixture. That is a fixture to consider

NightLightingFX
08-23-2008, 04:46 PM
Regarding fiber optics,
I got a IlluminFX unit in my hot little hand right now from Terradek. I am disappointed in the light out put. I showed this to my customers they weren't impressed either. I can see IlluminFX being used in back yard water falls etc. But in this application, with a lot of ambient light I don't think it would look good. Maybe that is why they don't have any commercial water fountain pics in their website? I will have to take some picures tonight comparing the fiber optic light output compared to a 20W 35* lamp.
~Ned

TXNSLighting
08-23-2008, 06:57 PM
That is a messed-up question. I am not in charge of the budget. The customer called me up at the last minute wanting advice on incorporate a lighting plan for a fountain they are building. This will be at the enterance of a high profile conduminium complex. I know they are willing to spend $3000, I may be able to get a little more out of them $4000 max. Doing a job like this will get me a lot of exposure - Commercial contractors, the public eye, & plus some experience with a large fountian. I am planning on using 20 fixtures. 5 on the bottom bowl, 3 on the 2nd bowl, 2 on the top water fountain, & 10 pointing in from the outside or I may point 5 out and 5 in (I am open to suggestions). Anyway, the point is 20 x Unique Natilus $450+ ea. we are talking about a job over $10,000. If you can figure out how to BUDGET that in to your cost, then you are one hell of an accountant. My question to you is how many high profile fountains have you done where you personally budgeted in $10,000+ to do the lighting?
~Ned

It was meant to be a joke...I forget about internet humor not being visible... And the Nautilus, last time i checked wasnt 450 bucks...

NightLightingFX
08-23-2008, 07:19 PM
Sorry I didn't get the joke - no worries. The retail price for a Nautilus must be somewhere close to $450. We don't want to talk contractor prices here. Based on what I know the price is I wouldn't charge less than $400 retail for it and that would be a good deal.
~Ned

TXNSLighting
08-23-2008, 07:32 PM
Pm'd ya....

S&MLL
08-23-2008, 09:09 PM
In regard to the fiber optic light output the system I have seen with color wheel off have more then enough power. You might have to custom build your kit but if you use the 50 strand cables on the metal halide system you should be comparable if not more then a 35watt mr16. Plus if your worried about a maintenance issue there is none. One bulb to replace if it goes bad. But they have about a 5000 hour life expectancy. If I were you I would definitely be thinking fiber optic in your situation. No sockets to rust. No bulbs in water to place. Not constant overhead of replacing gaskets with bulbs.

NightLightingFX
08-23-2008, 09:17 PM
Based on your guys in-put I think I know what direction I am going to go. When it comes to lighting we all know Eddie is a stud so if Focus has worked for him for 9 years. I am comfortable using it. The focus fixture also looks very similar to the Nightscaping Wrightlighter only 25% less expensive. I am also intriged by Vista's underwater fixture. It is all black and also large, 7" tall with a heavily weighted mount. This might be a good fixture to place on the pool floor to light up the bottom bowl. Thanks for the input. I continue to welcome objections to my point of view.
~Ned

S&MLL
08-23-2008, 09:26 PM
Anything I have or ever will do in a commercial location is mounted very secure. I wouldn't worry about the size of the weighted base. As long as its big enough to secure down that will be fine. Your going to want to use hydraulic cement to secure it down. A good general rule of thumb for commercial locations is if it can be messed with it will. Some people are very curious, others just have fun doing mischief. Take the time to figure out your plan of attack. Dont short yourself though like others have said. I don't know how long that establishment will let you keep a sign out front. A lot of developments and office buildings do not allow a sign at all.

NightLightingFX
08-23-2008, 09:30 PM
In regard to the fiber optic light output the system I have seen with color wheel off have more then enough power. You might have to custom build your kit but if you use the 50 strand cables on the metal halide system you should be comparable if not more then a 35watt mr16. Plus if your worried about a maintenance issue there is none. One bulb to replace if it goes bad. But they have about a 5000 hour life expectancy. If I were you I would definitely be thinking fiber optic in your situation. No sockets to rust. No bulbs in water to place. Not constant overhead of replacing gaskets with bulbs.
Good point regarding cable strands. The system I have in my hand has only has 25 strand cables. The light from a 25 strand cable is significanly less bright as a 20watt MR16. The real obstacle against using fiber optics in this case is we don't have any place to put the box. There is going to be pavers all around the fountain. We can't risk burying it.

NightLightingFX
08-23-2008, 09:34 PM
If you secure it down with cement how do you pick it up out of the water to service it?

S&MLL
08-23-2008, 09:36 PM
Where do you plan on putting your trans? As long as their are no sharp bends in the cable you be able to use lenths past 50 feet.

S&MLL
08-23-2008, 09:39 PM
Fountain would have to be drained. But I would suggest one a year changing all bulbs. Especially if its going to be a dusk till dawn setup. When you put your lights where you want them your going to want to have a lot of slack in the line to pull a foot out of water. Remember people are going to look into a fountain from time to time. Things need to look clean. I would think about encasing everything in conduit.

NightLightingFX
08-23-2008, 09:41 PM
Regarding fiber optics, the most a box can handle is 8, 50 strand cables. Even if we could find a place to put the box I would need 2 boxes (I think the minimum no. of fixtures to do the job is 15) We are talking about a system over $10,000. I will say I would rather spend $10,000 on underwater lighting with fiber optics vs. the Nautilus.
~Ned

NightLightingFX
08-23-2008, 09:59 PM
They had their heart set on having a side emitting light around the edge of the pool which is 75 linear feet. If we had two 38 ft long cable lining the edge then only 10 feet to place the box. Thanks for bringing that up. If we didn't do the side emitting light on the pool edge we might be able to hide the box in a flowerbed further out. But again I have seen 25 strand light I don't know how confident that light will work. If I used 16, 25 strand end emitting cables. 1-top fountain, 3-up lighting the 2nd bowl, 5-up lighting the
1st bowl and 7-hoizontally pointing in/or out??? to the center in the pool that might work but I am not that confident of the brightness. Do you think 25 strand cable are very bright?

NightLightingFX
08-23-2008, 10:10 PM
I have used Uniques DB transformers with success in the past. I am not a fan of Direct Burial transformers but they can be done. I don't plan on using a DB transformer. I can comfortably go out 100+ feet from the water feature to find a place to put an above ground transformer.
~Ned

Pro-Scapes
08-23-2008, 10:59 PM
Ned I stated I never had a problem with the kichler fixtures but I also have never put them in a fall line of water.

This is a pretty large fountain they are building. You really should discuss the budget with them because it would be a shame to build such a prominent feature only to sacrafice on the lighting. Seems like your trying to conform to thier budget and give them what they want dollar wise but your not giving them what they want results wise. Either thier expectations need to lower or your budget needs to be raised. Your 15 lights should be closer to double thier 3k if you do this right then plus the fiber.

NightLightingFX
08-23-2008, 11:09 PM
Billy,
You are right, as I have been thinking about this all day. I am realizing more and more how sophisticated this project is turning out to be.
~Ned

Pro-Scapes
08-23-2008, 11:18 PM
Billy,
You are right, as I have been thinking about this all day. I am realizing more and more how sophisticated this project is turning out to be.
~Ned

A fountain of this size is going to be pretty dominant. If you dont do it right or cause some issues on the job site its going to ruin your rep instead of what your hoping for. If your going to go in make sure your guns are loaded and you know what needs to be done and how to accomplish it.

NightLightingFX
08-23-2008, 11:24 PM
Good advise

JoeyD
08-25-2008, 12:49 PM
The Nautilus is a pricey light but it is justified in its construction. It is machined out of of solid stainles steel and can handle up to 75watts and go up to 8ft deep. This is something that most other LV underwater lights cant do. We designed this with commercial sized water features in mind. We obviously also have our composite Triton Underwater light which is on par with that Vista underwater ligth but I consider it very entry level and would not reccomend it for deep depths and heavy water turbulance.

http://www.uniquelighting.com/product_pages/Nautilus.htm
http://www.uniquelighting.com/product_pages/TRITON.htm

I have had lots of experience with the Focus Underwater lights and have had good results. Just avoid the Par36 version they make, it is guaranteed to leak and fail!!!

Here are some fountain photos done with our products.

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb97/ulsjoeyd/lighting/Picture224.jpg
http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb97/ulsjoeyd/lighting/Picture206.jpg
http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb97/ulsjoeyd/lighting/goetzman10048.jpg
http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb97/ulsjoeyd/lighting/Panorama7-1.jpg

NiteTymeIlluminations
09-02-2008, 08:54 AM
Wow, have been swamped and travelling through hurricanes so I've been out of touch. Hate to say I dont use underwater lights from anyone listed above anymore. I have gone to the dark side I guess. Crystal fountains have, as far as I'm concernd the best underwater ligts and selection. Enjoy. And never worry about anything, these are built for fountains, Kichler's 15191 are made for a small back yard fish pond...not a commercial grade fountain...

NightLightingFX
09-02-2008, 10:41 AM
Nitetyme,
Thanks for the tip on Crystal Fountains. I think I am going to use Focus underwater fixtures. I haven't heard anything bad about them and I like the shroud to shield any possible glare.
~Ned