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View Full Version : How to prep for winter... organicly...


DeepGreenLawn
08-22-2008, 09:35 PM
SO, what do we do to get ready for the winter months? Organically that is... anything?

JDUtah
08-22-2008, 09:54 PM
Eat lots and lots of organic food and pack on the weight.. hibernation seems to do better when it's organic food... :)

I would say X amount of N just before the grass goes dormant... but...

DeepGreenLawn
08-22-2008, 10:16 PM
yeah... that sounds more synthetic than organic... and goes back to the whole N deal... what good does N do the plants anyways if they are dormant? They going to hold on to it all winter? It seems the best thing to do would be to treat it enough to get to the point that it goes dormant, and then treat again just before it starts coming back to life.

JDUtah
08-22-2008, 10:31 PM
N right before (2-4 weeks) they go dormant gives them a good jump for the spring.. you would be surprised. :)

And yup.. if they want green, and you don't have the soil yet... N wont hurt. :)

treegal1
08-22-2008, 10:54 PM
he shoots and its... he missed the goal, no point..........


this should have read what to do to the soil to get it good for winter, so this dormant grass stores carbs/aminos and all for spring?? why?? and are these nutrients the same as it grows??? why not just call it the xmas money treatment.lolol winterizer is that like anti freeze.lolol

down here we just wax the surf boards.lolol

JDUtah
08-22-2008, 10:57 PM
hahaa tree, something like antifreeze. It works though. :)

And as far as the soil... I think a good spring CT when soil temp hits.... 55-70? Help reintroduce the herd that died off from the cold.

treegal1
08-22-2008, 10:59 PM
is there a winterizer test that goes with the fert.. you got me on this one its a real funny to hear this AGAIN.lolol

dishboy
08-23-2008, 12:16 AM
Here's a hint... late winter early spring and root growth.....

Smallaxe
08-23-2008, 05:37 AM
Plants build up carb reserves and probably aminos as tg said.

Remember the thread of jd's research? The plants sends out enzymes that stimulate the activity of microbes? When it has enough N it switched enzymes to K for example?

Plants all over the world prepare themselves for winter. They do better in good soil with sufficient water, but they do it according to their needs.

We THINK we know that the grass needs 3lbs/k of N b4 winter, but we also KNOW that N in the spring causes rapid green growth that BURNS up the carb reserves. That is close enough to a 'logical absurdity' for me to just enrich the soil and let the plant decide what it wants to do.

I hold off judgement of N till about May here so the Milorganite has time to get used by Memorial Weekend. [This is Northern grasses and I make no claims about Southern grasses, because I have no experience with them.]

Kiril
08-23-2008, 09:35 AM
Compost does a soil good!

DeepGreenLawn
08-23-2008, 09:49 AM
I knew that one was coming...

Kiril
08-23-2008, 10:09 AM
I knew that one was coming...

How about this,

Compost does a soil good, especially applied at the right time of year.

Smallaxe
08-24-2008, 09:11 AM
My guess that the best time of the year is the fall - to aid in overseeding and have the good microbes put the lawn to bed for the winter.

Kiril
08-24-2008, 09:58 AM
My guess that the best time of the year is the fall - to aid in overseeding and have the good microbes put the lawn to bed for the winter.

And spring to provide a lower albedo and help warm up the soil faster ... which should lead to faster green up.

Smallaxe
08-25-2008, 09:05 AM
So a high 'albedo' being the higher amount of light reflecting off the lawn? or the furry comic book anthology? [I didn't have to look it up :)]

...and a faster greenup leads to more root growth in the moist spring b4 the summer drought.

JDUtah
08-25-2008, 11:23 AM
Might not apply to warm season grass guys...

"Apply the bulk of nitrogen fertilizer to cool-season turfgrasses in fall and early winter rather than spring or summer. Fall fertilization increases overall root growth of cool-season grasses and reduces their susceptibility to several diseases."

http://www.ca.uky.edu/agc/pubs/id/id112/id112.htm

DeepGreenLawn
08-25-2008, 02:05 PM
yeah, I don't think that is the way to do it with warm season grasses but that will help with the few cool season lawns I have.

Smallaxe
08-25-2008, 11:34 PM
yeah, I don't think that is the way to do it with warm season grasses but that will help with the few cool season lawns I have.

So when will a positive N fix work most efficiently on southern turf? And why?

NattyLawn
08-26-2008, 08:26 AM
I don't buy into the excessive N in the fall idea. The plant can only store so much, then the rest is leached away. I do like the winterizer concept though, and like to apply normal rate of 4-3-1 or 6-2-4 in November. This year however I'm going to do a heavy extract or tea app in October (before it gets too cold) and compare that to a granular winterizer next spring.

cudaclan
08-26-2008, 08:47 AM
Cool season grasses perform their best during Spring & Fall (growth cycle). Warm season perform their best during Summer. Respectfully, those are the ideal time to fertilize and renovate. Recovery time and germination success is vastly improved during the growth cycles.

treegal1
08-26-2008, 09:19 AM
so basically you can not reproduce and eat while taking a nap??? who would have thought that.LOLOL

DeepGreenLawn
08-26-2008, 10:43 AM
warm season grasses I feel would benefit most with an early fert in the early spring just before or just as the lawn is coming out of dormancy. A big treatment in the fall as it is going dormant seems like it would be a waste as the lawn is dormant... not growing, eating, hibernation, you know like a bear? So I see a treatment, not too high in N but just an easy one to get it going as it comes out is probably your best bet and go from there. As the other guy said, warm season grows and does all its work during the heat of summer, that is the time it thrives and needs the nutrients to keep it going.

treegal1
08-26-2008, 10:50 AM
I say it like this, get the soil fixed and working and then you are just doing it and not talking about it.

cudaclan
08-26-2008, 12:29 PM
True, we do “reproduce” while sleeping but we utilize less “energy” while sleeping. Therefore, if we sleep for extended periods, that stored energy is FAT. Caloric intake needs to be regulated by energy spent. In regions where the seasons are noticeable, pruning, planting, irrigation and amendment applications is crucial.
Example: a tomato seedling transplant is not transferred from nursery to garden. It needs to be acclimated for its new environment. A greenhouse has different lighting than the garden. If fertilized at the wrong time, you sacrifice fruit production and promote more leaf production (pinching back required). Excessive/inconsistent watering promotes bacterial infection (Early Blight) and splitting of fruit.

treegal1
08-26-2008, 01:08 PM
well sorry for your partner, thats lame, you can do it sleeping. I think you have gestation confused with fornication. any ways gestation consumes many times more energy. now plants also need more energy to reproduce(most times). same with the micro herd!!!!!

Kiril
08-27-2008, 12:42 AM
Compost does a soil good!

Smallaxe
08-27-2008, 07:22 AM
So it would seem to me that the warm season grasses need to have the soil herd active during the summer time. If grass is growing the fastest during that period it will need the microbes working in high gear for nutrient cycling.

Would it be a safe bet to - plan on spreading compost during the chilly season of the South? Then when the grass begin to grow it will have all the energy needed IN THE SOIL to make available ALL the nutrients that are actually in the soil now.

We keep drifting from the concept of building the soil and forgetting what is happening in the rhizosphere to bring in various nutrients as they are needed.

Kiril
08-27-2008, 08:21 AM
Never hurts to have a constant supply of food for the little critters.

DeepGreenLawn
08-27-2008, 08:32 AM
do the little critters go dormant when winter comes? I know with Bills product if you put it in the fridge it will considerably extend its shelf life... so I take it with that the microbes "go to sleep" at a certain temp?

If so, wouldn't that mean that the turf then stops recieving and giving food?

treegal1
08-27-2008, 08:57 AM
deep there are micro herd that live at 20 deg F in salt water and sulfur.........

JDUtah
08-27-2008, 10:08 AM
But yes deep, climates with limited rainfall and extreme temperature change (per season) do have a negative effect on soil microbes.. connect that with an understanding of primary succession and it should make more sense... should help to let you know what to do to jump start a lawn in early spring as well.

ICT Bill
08-27-2008, 10:17 AM
for every 10 degrees Fahrenheit microbes become 100 fold more active. The most active time for microbes is also the most active time for plants, who would'a thunk. So when root exudates are the most available is also the time that microbes are the most active

The microbes are reproducing, excreting wastes and being eaten at the same time that the needs of the plant are most

I wonder if there is some parallel :rolleyes:

Organic a go go
08-27-2008, 10:54 AM
Isn't the "best" thing you can do for the soil pre winter is mulch all the leaves you can? If we're preaching OM then there isn't a better opportunity to add it than in fall leaf drop. Mimic nature and all that.

Sadly that's an uphill battle with even most of my hardcore customers. Too many lawn services around here have their pricing predicated on hauling materials away.

JDUtah
08-27-2008, 10:59 AM
Fallen leaves? What are those?

treegal1
08-27-2008, 11:42 AM
Fallen leaves? What are those?A bank account come spring!!!!

DeepGreenLawn
08-27-2008, 11:48 AM
I swear, the more I think about composting... lets just say I will be impressed if I don't have a lot rented by the end of next month taking in fallen leaves and grass clippings... I just wander... OH wait, thats horse shavings people need to get rid of... I LOVE IT!

treegal1
08-27-2008, 12:03 PM
and the thing is you can do it on any level. sorry no complete compost screen pics, its top secret.LOLOL

DeepGreenLawn
08-27-2008, 12:06 PM
I got some screen like that in my garage I picked up at HD one day when I was wandering around... I got a few plastic and a metal 55 gal drums... I guess all I need left is a motor, some pulleys and a frame? ball bearings maybe? Getting close...

Is that pipe pvc? Does it not melt?

treegal1
08-27-2008, 12:24 PM
pvc melts at a high temp.........

that screen was 10 feet long and 6 feet wide before it was rolled into a round. the motor is 4 hp, and it will load with a bobcat

treegal1
08-27-2008, 12:34 PM
its #10 ga 3/8 x 9 flat, cold rolled.

DeepGreenLawn
08-27-2008, 05:22 PM
yeah... my sheets are about 4' by 12'? I had a smaller screen in mind when I got that stuff...

treegal1
08-27-2008, 07:59 PM
we had to have that custom pulled in miami, it starts out 3 feet wide and 12 feet long then they cut(press) the slits, after that they stretch it and roll it flat, they have stainless that they can use but it would make the metal for one unit cost almost 3200$ so steel is what gets used for now, we are going to powder coat the outside and let the inside stay raw metal. you are also going to have to think production, the unit we started out with was meant to remove rocks from top soil, not to size compost. the finish size for this unit will all pass a 3/8 inch screen, and the small size setup will make compost that will pass a 1/8 inch screen

DeepGreenLawn
08-27-2008, 08:08 PM
new thread...

Kiril
08-28-2008, 12:17 AM
new thread...

Not without a ....... compost does a soil good! :)