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NightLightingFX
08-23-2008, 06:59 PM
Attached is a drawing of the fountain design. Any lighting ideas. The pool will have a black bottom. I am planning on 5 up lights directly below the first bowl. 3 up lights in the 1st bowl shinning up on the 2nd bowl. 2 lights in the 2nd bowl up lighting the fountain of water. It would be ideal to have 10 lights shinning horizontally in the water from the sides of the pool towards the center. Maybe I can get by with 5 lights shinning into the center. Or maybe it might look nice having 5 lights shine out from the center?

NightLightingFX
08-23-2008, 09:34 PM
Also, regarding connections for a water feature like this. Will the Nightscaping Ace connectors do the job. I don't think I can avoid having connections exposed to water. Any suggestions regarding connections?
~Ned

S&MLL
08-23-2008, 10:20 PM
I would never make a connection in a submersed application. I thought most submersible fixture came with at least a 20 ft leader. Plus a company like copper moon will put any size leader on there for you. Just make sure they make the connection inside the connection. Otherwise you still have a connection in standing water. Shrink wrap or not things do fail overtime. Thats why this is yet another advantage to fiber optic lighting. But if all else fails make sure you make your connections in some sort of water proof junction box. Take a trip down to your electrical supply house and they can probably steer you in the right direction. Go to a high end comercial location in your area and see what other have done. This is going to be a big step in the right direction for the advancement of your company. You do not want to do something that is going to fail overtime.

NightLightingFX
08-23-2008, 11:34 PM
I will have to engineer this so that I have 35 foot leads on all fixtures. All the leads will have to come out of the pool and then I will connect these leads to my homeruns out of the pool.
~Ned

NightLightingFX
08-23-2008, 11:40 PM
I will have to engineer this so that I have 35 foot leads on all fixtures. All the leads will have to come out of the pool and then I will connect these leads to my homeruns out of the pool.
~Ned
I don't think this is possible. If I were to have 15 fixture can you imagine how difficult that will be to phish through 15 cables of low voltage wire through conduit.

Pro-Scapes
08-23-2008, 11:48 PM
I would never make a connection in a submersed application. I thought most submersible fixture came with at least a 20 ft leader. Plus a company like copper moon will put any size leader on there for you. Just make sure they make the connection inside the connection. Otherwise you still have a connection in standing water. Shrink wrap or not things do fail overtime. Thats why this is yet another advantage to fiber optic lighting. But if all else fails make sure you make your connections in some sort of water proof junction box. Take a trip down to your electrical supply house and they can probably steer you in the right direction. Go to a high end comercial location in your area and see what other have done. This is going to be a big step in the right direction for the advancement of your company. You do not want to do something that is going to fail overtime.

Just because you wouldnt do it doesnt mean its not possible to do it and do it right. When companies add leads they generally splice off the pig tails anyways. There are companies who make under water junction boxes but they can get expensive. Last time I did a multi tier fountain I made the connections inside the center pillar and was able to secure it up and out of the water. That was over 2 years ago and its still working fine.

FOLD has some stuff for making underwater splices. Cant rememeber who they are from.. SPJ or aurora or something like that.

NightLightingFX
08-23-2008, 11:49 PM
Since they haven't built this yet. We need to have the pool guy put lights in the side of the pool.

NightLightingFX
08-23-2008, 11:50 PM
Billy,
What kind of fixtures did you use?
~Ned

Pro-Scapes
08-24-2008, 12:05 AM
Billy,
What kind of fixtures did you use?
~Ned

Existing. It was a reinstallation of an install gone bad by a landscaper. I think they were coronas.

Run main cables of 10 or 12 ga up to each tier thru the conduits in the center. Run a main up to each tier. I would use 10ga in case you need to bump the wattages then make your connection at each tier. If you dont think you can do it then pass on the project and let someone who can.

NightLightingFX
08-24-2008, 12:15 AM
I will figure out a way to do it. There is no one else in my area that can come close to doing this except me.

n2h20
08-25-2008, 01:46 PM
osae makes a daisy chain light. you can add however many lights to the string you want. great under water lights and i have never had a problem with any of them. 20 watt light comes with a little tripod and fully adjustable to either a spot or flood type light.

JoeyD
08-25-2008, 02:14 PM
osae makes a daisy chain light. you can add however many lights to the string you want. great under water lights and i have never had a problem with any of them. 20 watt light comes with a little tripod and fully adjustable to either a spot or flood type light.

are these like those little egg lights?

n2h20
08-25-2008, 02:47 PM
no, egg lights are by cal pump i believe, these are about the same size as a regular underwater light.

and sorry i just realized i spelled it wrong its Oase. the pond lights name is lunaqua 3 i believe/



they run about $50 wholesale-

TXNSLighting
08-25-2008, 04:07 PM
no, egg lights are by cal pump i believe, these are about the same size as a regular underwater light.

and sorry i just realized i spelled it wrong its Oase. the pond lights name is lunaqua 3 i believe/



they run about $50 wholesale-

Bud, you dont need to give pricing on this PUBLIC forum.

n2h20
08-25-2008, 07:04 PM
ooops sorry pal.....

Pro-Scapes
08-25-2008, 07:36 PM
they look kinda cheesey to me. ABout the quality of a bekket or something

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
08-26-2008, 01:35 AM
Those lighting kits supplied by the pond companies are the equivalent of Noma Moonrays at the HD. They suck, literally. I have pulled a bunch of them out of properties here, some only weeks old. They leak, and are generally poorly built and designed. Certainly not the thing for a "lighting professional" to use.

There is a reason that top quality underwater fixtures are so expensive... and rightly so.

Oh how nice it would be if all the sub-trades would just stick to what they know and do best! You don't see me out there messing around with water features, or irrigation systems, or fertilizing lawns, etc, etc, etc. So why is it that so many other trades feel it is necessary to get involved in outdoor lighting?

I guess a lot of the blame has to ride on those Green Industry distributors who have decided to push lighting as a "sure thing" onto everyone they meet. Oh, well... just have to figure out new and innovative ways to beat them at their own game I suppose.

Have fun.

NightLightingFX
09-03-2008, 09:26 PM
FYI,
I am moving forward with this project. I am going to use the Focus underwater fixtures. Without going into all the engineering of this project I am going to take a lot of install pics. We probably will have it finished somewhere between 1 and 2 months from now. Once it is done I will share all the pics.
~Ned

NightLightingFX
12-04-2008, 02:12 PM
I finished lighting the fountain here are some pics. I only lit the fountain, Not the building. Without getting too long winded, it was a very good learning experience. I was flying by the seat of my pants but I came out alright. My only real hiccup was that we needed an electrical permit for LV lighting of this fountain, since this was a commercial fountain - I did some shmoosing and worked things out. Other professionals involved with the fountian REALLY didn't know what they were doing and that created A LOT of hassles. I am a little disappointed in the water flow of the fountain. This picture was shot on a still night - no wind at all. What do you guys think?
~Ned

TXNSLighting
12-05-2008, 12:01 AM
Looks pretty good.

worx
12-05-2008, 09:12 AM
Great job Ned:cool2:

The Lighting Geek
12-05-2008, 09:49 AM
looks great Ned.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
12-05-2008, 09:17 PM
Ned... I think you pretty much nailed that fountain. Perhaps one or two more fixtures in the middle bowl to take out the slight shadow, but that is pretty nit picky.

Any chance you could add a couple of well lights and a bullet on the stone wall with the logo on it? Graze the stone on either side of the letters and hit the logo directly with the bullet. Use lamps and lenses to match the intensity of the fountain behind. (or you could use some soft floods on either side, but that leaves a lot of fixtures sticking up out of the ground)

Finally, find out if the pots lights on the structure are dimmable... if not, then maybe re-lamp at a lower wattage. It seems crazy bright back there, even for a commercial property.

I like the fountain a lot.

So, did the fountain eat up way more light then you thought it would? :)

Chris J
12-05-2008, 10:12 PM
I love it. Very elegant and dramatic. There does seem to be a lot of ambient light to compete with, but a few more fixtures washing the stone-work and emphasis on the logo would be nice. Even without the extra fixtures it is a job well done.

Elegant Outdoor Lighting
12-06-2008, 12:02 AM
real nice Ned,
real nice

BTW, how did you end up making the connections? or did you run all that wire outside and connect there?

NightLightingFX
12-06-2008, 01:03 PM
Any chance you could add a couple of well lights and a bullet on the stone wall with the logo on it? Graze the stone on either side of the letters and hit the logo directly with the bullet. Keep in mind this was a commercial project in which the Gen. Contractor REALLY didn't know what they were doing. We talked about lighting the logo but they were only worried about the fountain. I provided conduit and access to my hub to wire LV lighting for the logo, but to honest after this circus I really don't want anything else to do with them - I could do it in the future if they wanted me to for the right price.
Finally, find out if the pots lights on the structure are dimmable... if not, then maybe re-lamp at a lower wattage. That is highly unlikely, they are VERY ingnorant to quality lighting. On the other hand they have SO MANY IGNORANT light mistakes that are so obvious that I might be able to educate and get more business out of them It seems crazy bright back there, even for a commercial property. If you only knew - I did a little photo shop to reduce the brightness in the pic just to make the picture aesthetically pleasing. They did a HORRIBLE job with the architectural lighting and their landscaper threw in some lv lighting absolutly pathetic. I am getting worked up as we talk. Yah, the lighting is so bad it should be easy for my to point out obvious mistakes. Maybe I could have more say about future lighting in this project it is only 1/4 finished. On the other hand it is probably best I don't get involved after seeing how things were done.

I like the fountain a lot.

So, did the fountain eat up way more light then you thought it would? It is hard to tell, I am VERY disappointed in their finished fountain. I anticipated the water flow to be steady window of water falling down not a bunch of erratic water shooting out. Since the water is roughly flowing out it falls in the pool erratically. The pool below is full of ripples and waves - it was supposed to be a reflection pool. I am curious to see what the pool would look like in still water. I am going to have to turn-off the fountian and see what the lights look like in still water. To be honest I didn't know what to expect.
~Ned

NightLightingFX
12-06-2008, 01:09 PM
real nice Ned,
real nice

BTW, how did you end up making the connections? or did you run all that wire outside and connect there?

I used Focus underwater lights with a 50ft leads. All the connections are done outside of the pool.

NightLightingFX
12-06-2008, 01:18 PM
This is how I mounted the fixtures in the bottom bowl so that I could secure the fixtures where I wanted them without permanatly attaching them to the fountain.
~Ned

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
12-06-2008, 05:07 PM
Ned, is that duct tape I see? Is that the only means of securing the cross member to the pipe? If so, it will fail and won't take very long to do so. I see what you are doing there, I would advise you to rebuild those 'stands' using proper "t"s and couplings and cement it all together.

Also, that project is nothing more then a huge opportunity for you! Don't walk away from it... show the owners what you can do for them.

Best of luck.

NightLightingFX
12-06-2008, 05:33 PM
The cross members are secured by a lot of string securing them togather and then a lot of duct tape. We will see how long it last. I am tied to the maintenance of the lighting of this fountain for quite a long time so when my mounts break I will fix them and go back to the drawing board. I don't know about you but I have seen some duct tape hold-up in some pretty severe conditions.
~Ned

NightLightingFX
12-06-2008, 05:44 PM
James,
You got me thinking. I could wrap fiber glass and resin on these cross members which would defenatly be a longer term solution than what I currently have. As a professional it is kind of embarassing showing my work with duct tape. However, I was pretty proud of my fixture mounting idea.
~Ned

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
12-06-2008, 06:11 PM
Redone with proper PVC T's and Couplings, cemented tight will do the trick. You have to keep in mind what the client's and other trades will think of you, what opinions they will form of your work, at all times. You are supposed to be a professional Ned... so don't hack in stuff like that. It might work, it might not... but in the long run anyone who sees that is going to judge you as an amateur.

You can do better... your reputation rides on it. You are only as good as your last installation.

NightLightingFX
12-06-2008, 06:41 PM
Redone with proper PVC T's and Couplings, cemented tight will do the trick.

I disagree, by using T's I believe the rigididy of the braces will be compromised. It doesn't have to look pritty nobody sees it. I feel fiberglass and resin will be the best solution.
~Ned

Tomwilllight
12-06-2008, 07:05 PM
Looks great Ned!

You do need to clean up the mounts and make them appear professional.

Tom

Pro-Scapes
12-07-2008, 09:08 AM
I disagree, by using T's I believe the rigididy of the braces will be compromised. It doesn't have to look pritty nobody sees it. I feel fiberglass and resin will be the best solution.
~Ned

How ridgid does it really need to be ? ?Your not docking a ship your holding a fixture in place. I think the T's would be fine and look alot better than duct tape. I would have a good laugh if I found something like that on a job I was called out to. You think they are going to let you play in that huge building if your dict taping things ? Great job on the fountain but either put the T's in there (you know you can also fill the pipes with sand if you need something heavier) or do like your saying and make something slick looking out of CLEAN fiberglass work. Hacked up fiberglass resin and cloth tho wont look much better than what you got now.

Looks great. Wash the wall in front or at least demo it and show them your right.

NightLightingFX
12-07-2008, 03:43 PM
I appreciate all your input, and I am not offended if you guys think my work is a hack job because it isn't. I came up with a great idea few people would have thought of. The construction manager was impress by my idea. In this case it is function above appearance - I am not going to spend all my time trying make something look nice and no one will see it. I will be maintaining this fountain for a long time it is 100% guarranteed. "Hacked up fiberglass resin and cloth tho wont look much better than what you got now." - Why does it need to look nice???

TRILAWNCARE
12-07-2008, 04:43 PM
Why does it need to look nice???

Your reputation and quality of work go directly hand in hand. People will see your work, count on that. If they are interested in doing something similar, they will look at how this was done. If it was a quality install they will ask who did the work. Once they get your number that person will call you, to hire you to do there project.

The general contractor you did the work for will suggest your name to his contractor buddies that have outdoor lighting specified in there project. If you did a quality job.

If I was the customer that wanted my front yard or fountain lighted, if I seen the duct tape design you performed on this job, I would keep looking for someone else for my project. I wouldn't want some hack with a roll of duct tape doing anything for me.

If I was the General contractor on this project, I would be embarrassed to give your name for reference on someone's project. What if you did the same duct tape job on there project. It would make me look bad, and hurt my reputation for giving your name as a reference.

If you leave this duct tape work like it is. Most likely the general cntractor will tell others how much of a hack you are. This will spread like wild fire and kill your reputation as a person that does quality work. How many times have you heard of someone that cobbles something together on a job, or does half a** work. Would you hire that person to do a job for you??????? I don't think so.....

That is why it this has to look good.

Go to the hardware store, buy a couple of PVC crosses for a couple of bucks and do this job right. It would take only a couple of minutes per light to fix them. It might just get you thousands of dollars in business referrals. Not to mention save your reputation as a quality contractor. Leave the duct taping to "Red Green"

Take evereybodies advise. Before you don't have any more jobs to show off on the forum.

Tomwilllight
12-07-2008, 06:25 PM
Ned,

A Craftsman always finishes the job... Hacks don't. A Craftsman cares what it looks like when someone looks inside and around the back... not just the front. Hack's don't.

Learn some plumbing; use white cold water pipe and junctions. And sand off the lettering, it will look better still. It's worth the extra effort... Other Craftsmen will notice... Hacks won't.

Tom

Chris J
12-07-2008, 07:22 PM
I absolutely agree with the advice you are getting Ned. You are a good guy, and you try very hard to perfect your craftsmanship. Don't let something so petty ruin your reputation. 30 minutes and $2.00 worth of connections and it's problem solved.
Just for the record, this is another thing to consider when posting photos of your work. You have to be ready for the criticism because no matter what you do there will be someone who will find some kind of flaw in your work. You gotta have thick skin on these forums. As for me and my skin, we won't get into that at the moment.:o

Pro-Scapes
12-07-2008, 07:29 PM
Im not saying your lighting work is hack ned. Im saying the icing on the cake you baked has a few glitches

Details! Tom has a great idea. Ok so no one will see... EXCEPT the electrician... the fountain builder.... the GC...The landscaper etc.

NightLightingFX
12-07-2008, 07:58 PM
I agree Duct Tape is taky...
Using "T" connections will compromise the rigididy - "no doubt"
Fiberglass and resin that replaces the duct tape - is pemanent solution - Is the appearance of this solution SO important???

I appreciate your guys input and your challange to quality work. But I don't think a brace secured with fiberglass is the work of a hack.
~Ned

NightLightingFX
12-07-2008, 08:02 PM
Again I appreciate everyones input, I might have gotten a little defensive - Sorry. I just thought I had a great idea that I wanted to share. Point well taken about the Duct Tape.
~Ned

klkanders
12-07-2008, 08:58 PM
Ned,
I have met you in person. I don't know many guys as passionate about their work as you. Thing is if someone else had done this and posted the pic I gotta believe you would have called them out on it along with everyone else and thats ok. You can not get more rigid than using the proper connectors because once its glued its no longer pieces but a solid piece.

You did have a great idea Ned! Just finish it. Thanks for listening to all of us. :)
Chris is right....unfortunately when you post a pic you are subjecting it to others way of doing things.

Keith

Chris J
12-07-2008, 09:00 PM
Just to clarify, what he said about the fiberglass was to make sure it was a neat and clean glass job. If you do it with care, the fiber glass will be strong but you also want it to look neat and tidy. A bunch of sloppy glass work will look just as bad as the duct tape.
Here's to taking a beating and no blowing up. You are a better man than me! :drinkup:

Eden Lights
12-07-2008, 09:30 PM
Maybe someone has already mentioned this, but I would make the whole thing with copper and soldered fittings.

Looks great by the way, very good.

NightLightingFX
12-07-2008, 09:52 PM
OK Guys,
Regardless of your standards are in making braces. If you ever run into a similar situation you can try my idea out, and you can spend as much time on it as you want. FYI, PVC works.

I think tommorrow I will put togather some braces made of gold pipe. Don't you think little swirly designs engraved in the braces will be a nice touch?
~Ned

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
12-07-2008, 10:11 PM
Ned time to get over it... You know in your mind and in your heart that those brackets could be done better... now just go and do it. For all of the reasons mentioned here by many.

Oh, and use the T's and couplings and proper cement. It will not be any less rigid then it needs to be, and it will be neat and clean. And to answer your question Ned... YES! The appearance of a custom solution/application/etc is so very important.

That idea of putting sand inside the pipe to make them heavy is an excellent one too... thanks for that. I think it is great hearing tips like that.

Personally I take a LOT of pride in my custom applications and I always strive to make them as trick, seamless and permanent as possible. It IS something that the other trades notice and it is also noticed and acknowledged by some clients. It is the level of attention to small details that will build your reputation as a consummate professional in the field.

Have a great day.

NightLightingFX
12-07-2008, 10:32 PM
I think tommorrow I will put togather some braces made of gold pipe. Don't you think little swirly designs engraved in the braces will be a nice touch?
~Ned

Lets move on,
In my last post I was trying to make a joke. I didn't mean to come accross as a smart A$$. Thanks for the input.
~Ned

Chris J
12-07-2008, 10:35 PM
To drive this point home, let me make this simple contribution: I recently had an invisible dog fence installed for my new black lab. The guy came recommended, so I let him do it instead of doing what I could obvioulsly do myself. Great guy, very articulate and seemed to love his profession. The entire job was done in a very neat manner and he was real good about cleaning up any mess (not that there was much to clean up mind you). Upon final inspection after he was gone (I didn't get to be there 100% of the time due to an install) I found that the conduit leading from the controller down to the base of the wall where it exited the garage was at about a 60 degree angle and crossing over the conduit of the irrigation valve wire conduit (bent around it). Now this is something that no one will ever see because it's in the garage. It also really doesn't matter. But do you think I was pleased to see this kind of hack crap? Do you think I'll recommend him if anyone asks about my dog fence? The answer is hell no. Why he did this is beyond me. There were no obsticles forcing him to make the exit hole 2' over from the bottom of the controller. The point is this: that simple mistake made a good dog fence guy look like a complete trunk slammin hack. Everything else was great, but the details and finish work is what burried him. He will be out of business soon and I can almost guarantee it.

Pro-Scapes
12-07-2008, 10:53 PM
I love the Copper idea. Compliment it all. Since it is not visable I would probably just do PVC or something but certainly no duct tape. When I made my comment on the fiberglass... after seeing the tape job I could just imagine this big glob of fiberglass at the junctions.

Do it clean or dont do it. Your work looks really nice but when you bake that awsome cake you dont frost it real nice

worx
12-08-2008, 09:02 AM
Would someone just explain the the basis of what I am seeing. Is this some sort of anchor system? How is the fixture attached? Did the fixture not come with a weighted base? Just trying to understand.

NightLightingFX
12-08-2008, 12:09 PM
It is a brace/system designed to secure/place the fixture where I want to place it in a bowl. The pitch of the wall of the bowl where I want to place the fixture is approx. a 70 degree angle. A weighted base is not needed, if you put a weighted base on a 70 dergee angled wall it would slide down.

The base of the fixture slides into the holes of the pipe. By lodging one end ot the brace in the bottom of the fountain and the other end at the top of the fountian with the fixture, I am able to place the fixture on the side of the fountain without permanatly securing it. Since the other end of the fixture is round. The fixture rolls around. That is why I put a cross support member to prevent the fixture from rolling around.
~Ned

worx
12-08-2008, 03:22 PM
Thanks Ned I understand now. How about 2 stainless steel bolts where the pvc pipes intersect? Just a thought....but I do like the way the fountain turned out!

Lite4
12-08-2008, 08:49 PM
Very nice Ned! Too bad they didn't have it in the budget to do the stone work below and the logo, oh well. I am going to have to agree with James on using glue fittings for your piping, if you use crosses instead of T's at the junction you can lock the whole thing together and it will actually be far stronger and rigid than your current setup. You will eliminate a flex point in the pipe by joining them together. Keep up the good work.