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View Full Version : 6000 sq ft interlock driveway!


Hardscaping
08-23-2008, 07:57 PM
Ok i am pricing a driveway that measure as follows!

The striaght on the driveway will be going 135 feet in and 30 feet wide for 40 feet of it and only 22 feet wide for the remaining 95 feet! Now there is a half circle they want. basically the half circle will have a driveway width of 22 feet! The circle will have a indisde radius of approx 30 feet! and then out side radius of 55 feet!

I am not sure how to figure the sq footage here for this! Can someone give me direction.

Also remember the half circle will be merged with the striaght!

I am using stratford interlock made by hanson concrete products!

Hardscaping
08-23-2008, 08:18 PM
price of interlock per square ft is 2.05 cad!

I am thinking of a 10 inch deep base?

what is the rate of compaction on type a gravel! basicaly need to know for the amount of a gravel needed! I am thinking of 1 inch of sand for the setting bed! which type of sand is the best for drainage! only reason for questions is this house is in high end of town and want to make sure i am covering my bases!

I am thinking that i will be using masons sand for the joints and then put a sealer over top! any other suggestions?

When screeding the sand How much area should i cover each time i do it?

My estimat is going to be on 6450 sq ft! let me know if i am wrong here?

Hardscaping
08-23-2008, 09:44 PM
any direction to help me out here?

Hardscaping
08-23-2008, 10:08 PM
any direction to help me out here?

I am thinking of using a vibra roll ride on roller 3000 lb for compacting the base material any thoughts on this?

or i was going to use a 700 pound reversable plate tamper (maybe the vibra roll be better or should i use the tamper?) i was thinking the plate tamper for the walkways!

I am thinking a price in and around 39000 to supply and install this driveway there is total 6700 sq ft i am figuring including the two walkways!

that is a woping $5.82 a foot

YardPro
08-23-2008, 11:49 PM
with your obvious limited experience you have no business attempting a 6K sqft driveway.......

sorry, but that job is NOT one to get your feet wet with..
you will be doing your customer a great injustice.

richallseasons
08-23-2008, 11:50 PM
to find the square footage of a circle use Pi(3.14) x radius(1/2 dia) squared

PlatinumLandCon
08-24-2008, 12:02 PM
that is a woping $5.82 a foot

If you know its so cheap, why are you bidding that? Where in ON are you? How can you do your base prep and install pavers for under 8-10/sf and turn a profit? Personally, I'd bid 70k+

Hardscaping
08-24-2008, 12:48 PM
The total cost of this job is $24000 dollars without my pay and insurance!

This total includes all other labour and expenses!

also includes all taxes to pay on everything i need for the job!

So pricing it at $39000 i do think i can turn a profit! If i am missing something here let me know!

JohnnyRoyale
08-24-2008, 01:09 PM
I figure you have about $25 k in material before any excavation, placement, compaction, and labour. You are way, way too low here. $5.00 a Sq Ft is far from a whopping price tag, more like your costs. You should be in the 8-10 range on this job to make the money it deserves. Good luck, but reality is a paving company would come in and lay that in two days, be done in 3 including excavation and charge even less than what your thinking and make more money than you'll ever dream of on that job at your proposed price.

Hardscaping
08-24-2008, 01:19 PM
This is a brand new house not much excavating to be done! the job will run me 25000 including excavating! I do agree that a actual full out paving company could come in and do it alot quick therefore making more money then me!

The costs of the job include the following!
Amount of A gravel needed 18.5 yards per inch of (uncompacted) A gravel

will need base of 8 inches compacted, so I will need 200 yards of A gravel price of a gravel with delivery is

$2440 dollars plus taxes total $2757.20

The interlock brick cost for 6700 sq ft is $13,735.00 plus taxes total is $15,520.55

The cost of edging for the product to be installed. 63 pieces of edging at 8’ lengths cost of $12.45\pc and total without tax is $784.35 and the total with tax is $886.32

will need 19 yards of concrete sand cost of $384.00 plus taxes total is $433.92

Rental of vibra roll 3000lb vibrating roller or 700 lb reversable tamper for base material for one week cost of

$600.00 plus taxes total of $678.00 including tax plus delivery or rental of trailer to deliver myself!

buy or rent a 10 inch tub saw! Can buy for 299.99 from princess auto!

Rental of a 19 inch plate tamper for finished sanding and tamping!

Sand for filling joints $200.00

Sealer $200 (guess)

$45.00 per day. Rental two days $90.00 plus taxes is $101.7

Rental of skid steer for two days $550.00

removal of what is in place $500.00



Will take 7 days with me and two other guys!

Hardscaping
08-24-2008, 01:24 PM
If there is something you see missing here let me know!

Otherwisemy cost of doing the job is only about $3.73 per sq ft. Please correct me if i am wrong! then add the 2.09 per sq ft for profit! please if i am wrong here let me know i am going to be calling the guy soon to meet and talk about the pricing!

I just can't see someone paying 70k + for a standar 4x8 paver that only costs 15000 in product after taxes! i mean i will talk to the guy and try to see what he will think of a higher price but i don't want to bid myself out of the job either! There are paving companies around here that would either meet or beat my price!

JohnnyRoyale
08-24-2008, 02:00 PM
This is a brand new house not much excavating to be done! the job will run me 25000 including excavating! I do agree that a actual full out paving company could come in and do it alot quick therefore making more money then me!

The costs of the job include the following!
Amount of A gravel needed 18.5 yards per inch of (uncompacted) A gravel

will need base of 8 inches compacted, so I will need 200 yards of A gravel price of a gravel with delivery is

$2440 dollars plus taxes total $2757.20 ($12/Yard for Gravel?, really?)
The interlock brick cost for 6700 sq ft is $13,735.00 plus taxes total is $15,520.55

The cost of edging for the product to be installed. 63 pieces of edging at 8’ lengths cost of $12.45\pc and total without tax is $784.35 and the total with tax is $886.32

will need 19 yards of concrete sand cost of $384.00 plus taxes total is $433.92

Rental of vibra roll 3000lb vibrating roller or 700 lb reversable tamper for base material for one week cost of

$600.00 plus taxes total of $678.00 including tax plus delivery or rental of trailer to deliver myself!

buy or rent a 10 inch tub saw! Can buy for 299.99 from princess auto! BUya real saw, princess auto saws are garbage, a real blade will cost you 300 or more.
Rental of a 19 inch plate tamper for finished sanding and tamping! $100/day
Sand for filling joints $200.00-brick sand? use the right stuff, brick sand is for rookies.
Sealer $200 (guess)

$45.00 per day. Rental two days $90.00 plus taxes is $101.7

Rental of skid steer for two days $550.00

removal of what is in place $500.00-what does this include?What about disposal?



Will take 7 days with me and two other guys! 210 Man Hours


With your calculations, your at 22108.00 (2752+15520+886+433+678+299+200+200+90+550+500)

First of all, your gravel quanitity may be right, pricing may be wrong. There is a difference in a yard of gravel VS a tonne of gravel. Your going to need a skid steer there till the end, trust me, you'll need a good saw, and packer there the whole time too. You havent taken into consideration disposal, labour (another 4000-6000, depending how much you pay yourself or your guys), fuel for the equipment and the trucks you run, overhead, and profit. Using brick sand in the joints is a bad idea, use the real deal, and your cost will go up further. Problem here is you really dont know your true costs. You will make very little, if nothing on this job, if you go in at that price.

Hardscaping
08-24-2008, 02:35 PM
100 bux a day for a 19 inch plate tamper wow i need to start renting things out! they are 45 a day here

The price for the gravel is correct i have my price book right in front of me if i buy it by the tonne it will even be cheaper but then have to pay a truck to bring it to me! the removal of the fill there is only 500 reason being is that i will have a truck from a local trucking company charge me about 180 per tri axle load including taxes! that includes the dumping of the material as well at their pit! it is clean fill there now! Also the owner has a guy doing the grading for him and i will ask if they can do the grade of the driveway for me when they do the rest of the lot!

I guess you are right on the skidsteer for the week though!

I do agree that the blade form princess auto will be garbage so i will just rent the saw for 350 a week! plus taxes


So the cost of the skidstee for the full week will be 760 a week plus delivery and taxes. 65 each way delivery!

pay one guy 10 bux and hour and one guy 13 and hour and then me dont' really have set price for myself!

I have one truck that will only run me about 150 in gas for the week. then another 350 for the skidsteer fuel for the week!

What is the problem using that sand if i seal the job?

PlatinumLandCon
08-24-2008, 02:43 PM
Where do you live in ontario? Where are you buying supplies?

Hardscaping
08-24-2008, 03:55 PM
I am not to far away from you about 1 hour towards windsor! on 401

Hardscaping
08-24-2008, 03:57 PM
now seriously i am going to call this customer and talk with him! I want to find out if he has any idea what so ever the cost, i guess if you can afford a million dollar home though you should understand the costs involved in it looking like one too!

Also i think i will raise my prices up to $7.5 a sq ft i think this will put it up to a reasonable price for both me and him! If i raise my price too much then i will be for sure biddingmy self out of the job! (don't want to do this as once this job is done others will see it and want theirs done as well) there is a bit of construction going on in that area!

wurkn with amish
08-24-2008, 04:01 PM
dude if you weren't worried about your price you would have called the guy by now. Quit wasting eveyones time not even listening to their replies. Because in the long run your just gonna do what your little heart desires anyway!

Hardscaping
08-24-2008, 04:13 PM
dude if you weren't worried about your price you would have called the guy by now. Quit wasting eveyones time not even listening to their replies. Because in the long run your just gonna do what your little heart desires anyway!

There is no problem for me to just throw a price out!

But why not try to see if there are things i have missed! People can always be wrong! I don't want to get into a job where there is a 40000 dollar or more price tag and not price it right, I might as well quit now and go to work in a factory!

zedosix
08-24-2008, 04:50 PM
Mabye I missed something here, what kind of brick are you quoting.

Hardscaping
08-24-2008, 04:59 PM
i am using hanson stratford pavers $2.05 per sq ft!

PatriotLandscape
08-24-2008, 05:25 PM
Why are you using so many exclamation points! ?

Hardscaping
08-24-2008, 05:27 PM
in that TYPE of mood! lol

PatriotLandscape
08-24-2008, 05:31 PM
you should be using poly sand and that would run you about 1500 for that size job.

what are you sealing for 200? sealer runs about a buck a square so your looking at an additional job of 6000+

you also should not seal until the brick has time to weather at least two months.

you need to clean the pavers before you seal them as well.

just be careful if you take on this size job

1. do it right. if you messed up the amounts don't skip on base to save a buck it will cost you way more on the other end.

2. does this customer even know what this product runs? often they don't or if it is a builder he will want it for bottom dollar.

just a thought if you land the job don't run back here with pics of bad work :) do it right and make good money if anything you'll learn a lot about your business.

PatriotLandscape
08-24-2008, 05:35 PM
When screeding the sand How much area should i cover each time i do it?




only as much as you can lay that day.

Hardscaping
08-24-2008, 05:47 PM
Ok so i just got off the phone with the homeowner and he is setting up a meeting between me him and the builder i basically told him that the job will range from 44000 to 53000 depending on the final grading being provided! ( the grading is not done yet) When i told him the pricing he seemed a bit surprised at the price to be so high! But After explaining to him that a 1000 sq ft driveway with the same exact material would run him about 10 to 13 dollars a sq ft! he had more of an understanding!

When i meet with the builder i will find out what the final grade will be and if they can provide the grade i want for the driveway or if i have to do it myself! basically i will get my final price from the grading that will be done!

I will be using poly sand and not seling the driveway if he wants the selaer then he will have to pay the extra per sq ft that it will run at the time of doing it!

I have been debating on wether i should hire another employee with some good experience and pay him really well so that he can help the job go alot smoother than two people that don't know so much! ( debat over by the end of typing that i am going to hire another person)

My plan is to cover every single step and not short corner anything this job will determin my future of hardscaping and when it is done and has gone well i will be able to grow the company a bit better! Also the pictures will help with advertising a whole lot!



thank you for the help!

mhilton
08-24-2008, 05:47 PM
$7 sqft for pavers **** I charge more than that for some of our ow end concrete work and almost three times that for our high end

Hardscaping
08-24-2008, 06:11 PM
Ok just reading some things about newer houses and their continual settlement issues for new hardscapes!

What do you guys do to stop the pavers from settling that four feet away from the house?

PatriotLandscape
08-24-2008, 08:08 PM
enough with the exclamation points already.

we will do a few things one lots of water! flood the area several times before working their! work on other parts if you can and water it a few times a day! rent a jumping jack and get as close to the foundationas you can! I hope you don't talk like this in real life because it would be strange!

Good Luck! at least you are reading it is a great start!

Hardscaping
08-24-2008, 10:39 PM
thank you, for the help. Very much appreciate it.

No i don't talk like that all the time! lol

McKeeLand
08-26-2008, 04:57 PM
my biggest concern, besides from the obvious, is you think you can do it with 3 guys in 7 days. i bid a 4500sf driveway a few weeks ago and we had close to 600 man hours, we had concrete removal and a 12" base, but still. we did a 1200sf this summer and bid 160man hours and it came our right on the money. did i mention i have been doing this for over 10 years too. your way under on man hours and that's where you will always loose your shirt on a job.

JohnnyRoyale
08-26-2008, 05:18 PM
my biggest concern, besides from the obvious, is you think you can do it with 3 guys in 7 days. i bid a 4500sf driveway a few weeks ago and we had close to 600 man hours, we had concrete removal and a 12" base, but still. we did a 1200sf this summer and bid 160man hours and it came our right on the money. did i mention i have been doing this for over 10 years too. your way under on man hours and that's where you will always loose your shirt on a job.

So true...Especially 3 unexperienced guys. I dont expect a 3 or 4 man crew of mine to lay more than 1000-1200 sq ft per day, after most of the prep work is done. And these are guys that eat, sleep, and crap this stuff, not $10 an hour guys off the street.

Hardscaping
08-26-2008, 06:45 PM
well then I have since changed my man hours to 2 weeks of labour that is 12 days at 10 hours each day for each guy that is 360 hours!

PlatinumLandCon
08-26-2008, 08:20 PM
that is 360 hours!

That isn't enough! You don't work a full 10 hours/day! Your guys are inexperienced! bid 800 hours!

AztlanLC
08-26-2008, 09:31 PM
Actually I think he's over priced for the quality of work the end result will turn out to be I can see this job taking a month if not more with 3 inexperienced guys, $10-13 dls an hour is all you are assuming do you pay taxes and workers comp?

westernmdlawn
08-26-2008, 09:46 PM
Hardscaping... I promise you 360 man hours wont touch your job. Think about it... you have excavation, base prep, screeding sand, laying pavers, field perimeter cutting, infill cuts, border cuts, edge restraint, joint sand, mobilization, jobsite clean up, and so on. Have you thought about drainage? Do you have a laser level? Also, if you come to the realization that your labor budget is way too low you will also realize that instead of making 7 trips to the job site, you will really be making 20, and instead of needing that bobcat for 1 week your will need it for several... get my point.

Not trying to bust your bubble here, but you are gonna lose your shirt if you don't rethink this.

mcclureandson
08-26-2008, 10:11 PM
I have limited experience compared to others on this site...less than 10,000 face/ft of wall and around about the same sq/ft of patio/flat work...and I recently sold a 1320sq/ft patio (no vehicle traffic - 6" base) based on 120 man hours WITHOUT excavation. My GREEN crew would need more than 650-700 hours for this. AND...while my experience with hardscapes might be limited my experience with sales, high-end installs and builders is not...I'd be very suprised someone is considering a project this size without having a reasonable idea of the cost AND wanting to see examples of YOUR work! I'll be shocked if this project gets far enough for you to lose any money. Recognize your limitations and move onto projects you can complete in a professional and profitable manner. You're in business to make money...find smaller projects to build on and within a reasonable amount of time you'll have the equipment and experience (with the sales and the install) to complete something like this with no problem.

Hardscaping
08-26-2008, 11:21 PM
I appreciate the help And as i already bid the job i will be happy enough if i get it! if i loose my shirt so be it! I can't change my bid now i have to work within the pricing i already set out! i have rethought this situation many times and have asked others about the work as well and how long they assume it will take! I am meeting with the guy that is grading the lot and the homeowner is going to have him grade the driveway the way i tell him to that way i don't have any excavation but i am still assuming minimal excavation wil be there. If i have to excavate the whole thing the price will be 54000 dollars with out excavation the price will be 45500 dollars. I truely believe this job will be done in two to three weeks at tops. The cutting and placing of the edges i will do it on my own if it takes me a week to do by myself then so be it. i will not be [aying the employees to stand around and do nothing while the cutting is being done!

i appreciate the help thank you very much i will get back to this thread once the job has been a go or not and let everyone know the out come.

I will be using a line level through the whole job no laser level yet. but thinking i might get one for this job (rent it) to be safe.

PlatinumLandCon
08-26-2008, 11:32 PM
I appreciate the help And as i already bid the job i will be happy enough if i get it! if i loose my shirt so be it! I can't change my bid now i have to work within the pricing i already set out! i have rethought this situation many times and have asked others about the work as well and how long they assume it will take! I am meeting with the guy that is grading the lot and the homeowner is going to have him grade the driveway the way i tell him to that way i don't have any excavation but i am still assuming minimal excavation wil be there. If i have to excavate the whole thing the price will be 54000 dollars with out excavation the price will be 45500 dollars. I truely believe this job will be done in two to three weeks at tops. The cutting and placing of the edges i will do it on my own if it takes me a week to do by myself then so be it. i will not be [aying the employees to stand around and do nothing while the cutting is being done!

i appreciate the help thank you very much i will get back to this thread once the job has been a go or not and let everyone know the out come.

I will be using a line level through the whole job no laser level yet. but thinking i might get one for this job (rent it) to be safe.

Dude you're screwed like drag slicks in snow. Good luck, profit alot of knowledge!

Hardscaping
08-27-2008, 12:43 AM
I appreciate the help!

If i may ask what is all of your experience in the feild of what i am quoting out and how many of you have even priced or done a job like this before?

NOT TRYING TO START ANY ARGUEMENTS SO DON'T BOTHER GETTING MY THREAD CLOSED OVER STUPID ARGUEMENTS

I am asking serious questions.

Also if i may ask what kind of profit would you imagine to see off a job like this?

Hardscaping
08-27-2008, 01:32 AM
ok so here is my hours breakdown, let me know if you see a serious spot of injuury on it.

excavating full excavation of what is there 4 days with me and a skidsteer. 8hrs\day
without excavating full only minimal just me with 10 hr day

base spread and compact

3 days me plus 1 guy for 8 hrs a day

Screed and lay ( 1500 ft a day ) just to be safe a lower number!

5 days me plus 2 guys 10 hrs per day

cutting and edge restraint
4 days me plus 1 guy 8 hrs per day

Sand and tamp
2 days me plus 1 guy 8 hrs per day

Clean up

Just lonsome me for 2 full days of 8 hrs\day

total said hours come to 352 man hours including my hours this is with full excavation and removal!

not including my hours

that is 172 man hours

lets round that up to 200 hours for them

At a total cost to me having them work for these hours of 17 dollars an hour

is 3400 dollars plus all my costs that were totaled up before which was 24000 dollars that was a bit inflated too. so a total cost of 27400 dollars not to mention that there was a bit of allowance in there for labour!

Now with a bid of 44000 i stand to have a difference between costs noted and total charge of 16600, I don't pay myself much as i just take what i need to cover my bills and then use the rest back into to the company for equipment and other things that will benefit the company and will act as a tax helper once tax man comes.

Now do you really see me having to spend another 16600 dollars on doing this job on top of the above noted costs? This is the base rate as well this is without charging the extra for excavation and grading! So if i add this in there will be a difference of 26600 dollars!

If worst comes to worst i could hire a contractor to do all the grading and base prep for me there for taking away from total time of the job. There fore not spending so much time doing the job.

Does anybody see anything wrong with any numbers i have put here so i can reveiw them?

Even if i payed one really well experienced guy $40 an hour as a sub contractor to come in on the job as well i would only have to pay out another 6900 dollars!

fool32696
08-27-2008, 03:17 AM
Interested to see how this plays out...

etwman
08-27-2008, 09:37 AM
I can't help but jump in on this one. I don't often post elsewhere but I thought I would on this occassion. We just finished a very similar driveway job with this square footage so its a very comparible job. You can see the progress under the "Equipment Photos" thread in the picture forum.

I'd like to think, based on the fact that hardscaping is 80% of what we do, that we are very quality and efficiently oriented. I will tell you that you will lose your shirt on this job and that you are going to feel sick to your stomach once your 500 tons of base stone show up and you realize you're in way over your head. I'd get yourself a good puke bucket because you'll need it. With the very best in efficency, and every hardscape tool in your arsenal, you'll be at 550 man hours on this job with excavation. That's with not a whole of extensive, creative cut work. If you're inexperienced, tool starved, and inefficient on this job you had better figure in 750 hours.

These are the kind of projects that we get calls for a year down the road to come look at because the thing has become a huge mess. My advise is start small, do small jobs, and gain experience without taking a customer for a ride. This is an intermediate to advanced size job. Its evident that you don't know what you are doing by your pricing and quality risks being sacrificed to get out quickly and save your hide. Don't give the industry a bad reputation by bidding low, doing poor work, and having the customer be the bearer of a bad job.

Let me ask you this? At the price you quoted can you afford to return to that job in a year, fix it correctly by ripping it out, while being served potential legal papers? Think about that, it'll be a learning experience to say the least.

Don't mean to be harsh but this is reality. Heed the advise of what alot of experienced hardscapers have given you in this thread.

Hardscaping
08-27-2008, 10:10 AM
Thank you for your advice.

I would still ask though what kind of profit would any of you like to see as a return on this job?

McKeeLand
08-27-2008, 12:48 PM
I didnt think you could pass over this one Jarod! This is why I stopped posting here and here i find myself involved in another thread that i cant walk away from, kinda like a accident on the side of the road, i just cant look away despite the carnage.

Your asking about what kind of profit you should make on this job? you will be luck if at the end of this job you haven't spent $10k of you own money!
you should know before even submitting your proposal what you profit is. you decide what you hope your profit is going to be, this is assuming your numbers in you estimate are correct and all goes as planned. when i say profit i mean the money you keep after all costs and overhead are paid, not how much is left after paying your guys and suppliers.

just a side not on stone quantities, 6500sf at 10" and that is the minimum you want to use up there, 12" would be even better, you looking at 400tons minimum and that does not include you over dig which should be at least 12-15". also i did not see underlayment fabric in you materials? one last thing is you have about 3% for waist, i hope its a straight driveway?

JerseyGreen
08-27-2008, 04:44 PM
How much expereince do you have with pavers? Have you even done a driveway before?

zedosix
08-27-2008, 06:29 PM
Dude for god sakes come clean, tell the customer its out of your caliber. Ask him if he has a nice back patio (square preferably) for you to do first. Start small, keep at the small ones, then do some more small ones, maybe a medium sized patio-walkway combo for a couple of seasons then once you've a few good men and 3 (minimum) yrs experience maybe then give this driveway a go. If your still in business. :walking:

etwman
08-27-2008, 06:47 PM
I'm not saying you couldn't do it but based on your numbers and lack of experience Jay's right, you'll end up paying the customer to let you do the work.

Our driveway project at the country club took 9 days will all the demolition, excavation, and install but it was well orchestraded with guys that new what they were doing.

Zedo is right find a small patio somewhere, learn, make some good notes and decide if this is something you really want to do.

If you have already signed the contract for this job your only mere saving grace may be to find a reputable excavator, who has the right equipment and has done paver base before, to prep the driveway right for you. You don't have the right equipment, and if you rent it, you'll be there forever doing it right. Screeding sand a laying all those pavers correctly with cuts for a beginner will be a handful in itself.

PlatinumLandCon
08-27-2008, 09:02 PM
I guess technically you could make money but lets get real, 3 days of base? 5 days of laying? I'd say 6 and 10, respectively. What pattern are you laying in?

mrusk
08-27-2008, 09:42 PM
Why does every senetence end with a '!'. I am about as perplexed by that as I am by the back that the guy has not clue what he is getting into.

I have done almost everything possible in hardscaping and I would be nervous bidding a 6k sq ft driveway.

stuvecorp
08-27-2008, 09:57 PM
Last fall we did just over 6000 sq feet driveway and it was one of the most challenging projects. The homeowner bought all the supplies and we had to finish grade, lay pavers and do all the cutting and edging. Learned acouple things, I will never do a driveway again unless I control all parts(demo and install base course) because I got blamed for settling. I did have to repair a couple spots but that is the beauty of pavers, would never know after fixing it. Just be very careful.

PatriotLandscape
08-27-2008, 10:20 PM
Did you get the bid? do you have any pictures?

zedosix
08-27-2008, 11:16 PM
Poor guy, man we've scared the crap out of him and likely right out of lawnsite!

kootoomootoo
08-27-2008, 11:53 PM
2 questions....

1.Do you have ticketmaster in Canada ...I want to know where i can buy tickets for this event. Maybe it will be PPV.

2.Of course you will be using pavers rated for driveway usage. Figure that one out on your own.

Hardscaping
08-28-2008, 12:14 AM
Ok i am not a moron just cause i come on here asking for help OR am i for doing that.

Now yes i am using pavers for driveway usage. I do have somewhat of a clue or i wouldn't of even bid the job at all. i have my plan in place the grading is still not done on the house so i still have to wait till the grading is done to even get the go ahead.

I would appreciate not being so hard on me. If i learn a lesson then i learn a lesson. If i make 10000 dollars off of the job then i make that much. All these costs everybody is talking about but cannot explain them at all. there are a few good points i have been readin everything your saying and go over my bid everytime i read another post with usefull info. I have not even bid the job yet i just gave the guy a ballpark of the cost so he has an idea of what to expect when he gets the quote.

All of you say i will lose my shirt, hopefully i lose my shirt and gain a better truck!

I work and i work hard, probably harder then you think i will. I don't care how many hours i put into a job myself, it is the workers i count on to work harder to keep their hours down. i will work there from sunrise to sunset for a month everyday, if i have to to make 16000 dollars.

The paver i will be using are 2.36" thickness.

Mike33
08-28-2008, 12:28 AM
Guys like you give the industry a bad name. I did a wall few weeks ago where some jackass didnt know what he was doing and made thr HO very cautious about hiring any one else. I came highly reccomended but they had to check out my work before they would give me the job. Any other time i would of walked but putting my self in there shoes i felt for them. I built a small wall around 225 blocks and put my money where my mouth was. I made the deal x dollars no deposit payment upon cpmpletion and satisfied with my work. Great people, loved my work and payed in full. My point is, i had to build there trust because they got screwed and this is going to happen more often with guys like you doing things you have no clue of. Keep the industry clean by not going out taking on projects that will make us all look bad. Some of us actually has to put food on the table this way.
Mike

Hardscaping
08-28-2008, 12:31 AM
I guess technically you could make money but lets get real, 3 days of base? 5 days of laying? I'd say 6 and 10, respectively. What pattern are you laying in?

So i add these extra hours in if you really think that will be what it is.

Another 124 man hours not including my time.

So total of another 2000 we will add. to the price of excavating and preping and installing. so from the 26000 i would make then minus the 2000 then we are at 24000
or at 14600 still don't see where the rest of the money is going.

If someone can give me some hard numbers to make this job actually show i won't make mone i will recomend to the client the closest person to me that can do the best price for him and admit that i cannot do that job to him as i am new and don't know what i am doing. I will even record it and put it on utube for you guys to see.

Hardscaping
08-28-2008, 12:32 AM
by the way my overhead is only 300 bux a month for everything. Will be up next year though once all numbers for the amount of work that is being done this year.

JLAWNCARE
08-28-2008, 12:37 AM
I Would Sub The Job Out Add On Extra For Youre Self And Just Manage The Job No Headaches. If Youre On 1 Job For A Month For Ten Thousand You Could Make That Easier Doing Small Jobs

Hardscaping
08-28-2008, 12:41 AM
I do think subing it out wouldn't be a bad idea but the idea for this job is to put my company name on the map for the nicer areas of my city. By doing this job i will obtain alot more jobs from it.

By the way the job will not be three inexperienced guys there will be me with a bit of experience and then one helper and one guy that i am hiring to come in for this job.

EagleLandscape
08-28-2008, 12:52 AM
I would sub it out, mar it up 5%, and sit there on the jobsite EVERY SINGLE SECOND, and learn as much as you can.

Think about this.

Getting paid a few thousand dollars to learn how to do it right. No risk at all to you.

Stick a company sign in their yard at completion.

Its a win-win situation for you, and your customer.

I have been on this site for years, please listen to the wisdom of these guys that are trying to HELP you out. We would not take the time to write these replies if we didn't want to see you succeed. We don't want you to fail.

tthomass
08-28-2008, 01:06 AM
I'm waiting for you to ask the question for one of us to come install it for you to show you how we come up with "hard numbers".

Here's a question for you........do you know what Nuclear Density Testing is? Does the number 200 mean anything to you? Answer honestly, without Google.

You are the one that has to know your business, not us. We all have different costs, as stated repeatedly. You can not ask us to bid a job for you. Yes, you can ask for help bidding the job and there are many experienced folks on here that would be happy to help.

Your problem:
1. You asked to price it for you......

2. “I am thinking of a 10 inch deep base?” ....you think?? Translation, I don’t know what I’m doing.

3. “What is the rate of compaction on type a gravel!” ....Translation, no, I don’t know what NDT or 200 means.

4. “Basically need to know for the amount of a gravel needed!”.....fair question, though still shows lack of experience you should have prior to such a job

5. “I am “thinking” of 1 inch of sand for the setting bed! which type of sand is the best for drainage”…….first, you’re still “thinking”, translation, I don’t know and if I did, I would know the sand is not for drainage….yes it does drain though

6. “I am thinking that I will be using masons sand for the joints and then put a sealer over top! any other suggestions?”........thinking again, and wrong sand and sealer = lacking proper industry education

7. “When screeding the sand How much area should I cover each time I do it?”.........fair question, though again, with experience you should know the answer

8. “My estimate is going to be on 6450 sq ft! let me know if I am wrong here?”.........fair question

9. “I am thinking of using a vibra roll ride on roller 3000 lb for compacting the base material any thoughts on this?”.......read the owners manual because you obviously don’t know the machine

10. “So pricing it at $39000 I do think I can turn a profit! If i am missing something here let me know!”.........yeah, knowing if you will turn a profit

These questions tell us that you are getting in over your head. They tell us that you do not have the experience, nor the education, to tackle such a job.

Big job? Yeah! Want it? Heck yeah! Why? Because big jobs mean a lot of pride and $! Well, first you start with small jobs and then let each job grow at a rate at which you can handle. One of my first jobs was replacing sod in front of a townhouse for $100……the advice I just gave in the previous sentence I would recommend keeping in your mind as its worth gold.

So, yeah you want the job and don’t want to hear anything negative or anything that questions your ability because that goes against landing a big job with big pride and big $. All you’ve got in this business is your name and it follows you under whatever business you may be associated with. Lose your name and you’re out of business.

“Not a sermon, just a thought”

tthomass
08-28-2008, 01:10 AM
by the way my overhead is only 300 bux a month for everything. Will be up next year though once all numbers for the amount of work that is being done this year.

I promise you, you're wrong. Most of the guys on here spend that every single day, before lunch.

EagleLandscape
08-28-2008, 01:17 AM
I promise you, you're wrong. Most of the guys on here spend that every single day, before lunch.

Agreed!!!!!!!!!

Each truck is 100 bux a day in fuel.

Hardscaping
08-28-2008, 01:36 AM
tell me how i can spend hundred bux in fuel i don't drive around all day i go tot he job stay there do what i need to do and then go for lunch and come back.

Now 20 dollars a day in fuel when i work.

That is being generous.

The 300 is my insurance and comp coverage i am a small company and still growing. The other costs of running my business are all incorporated into the cost of the job.


Oh yeah also you guys i would suppose are going to tell me now that since i just got 30000 sq ft of sod to do for a builder in the next three weeks, is way too much for me to handle as well.

Also that job i just handed my quote in for another 50000 sq ft of sod to be done before the end of october or begining next spring. maybe that is too much too. I have done the beginer stuff it is time for me to grow and get into a business aspect of doing bigger and better jobs.


I appreciate all the help.

I am going to meet with the guy grading the lot for the owner this week on friday or saturday. once this goes through then i will hand my written quote over and begin the work.

I will come back on here and let you guys know you were right and then recomend the best one of you that are close enough to come do it.

Or maybe just maybe i will come back with a couple pictures and have my paycheck and be done with it, Then i will start on the 15000 sq feet of sod needed on his house. Or maybe i will not do it cause i should go do the $100 dollar small sod job. (just for your info I would never do any size sod job unless it was under 20 sq feet for only a $100)

If i have to go back and fix an area then so be it. I will go back and fix an area, i would really like not to have to do this but things happen to the best of us.

I would like to be able to have this thread kept open so i can post my pictures of the job and reply to what happened and if you guys were right. This would be able to help others out, to understand that there are people to help and there are also people just sitting on their computers trying to bother anyone they can.

Also this topic didn't get so hot till chattanooga hardscapes thread got closed. Shows how much everyone is trying to help! Noone has that thread to bother him on so on to the next guy.

kootoomootoo
08-28-2008, 01:45 AM
How bout you get the job first....otherwise this is the usual ego trip bs.

Mike33
08-28-2008, 02:10 AM
I believe the moderater will be closing this thread soon, its going no where.

Hardscaping
08-28-2008, 03:13 AM
I would appreciate to leave this open so i can come back with the answer of how things turned out.

mrusk
08-28-2008, 10:46 AM
If you do bit sod jobs you must be ready for big paver jobs!


If you want to grow your business, you do not take a job that you are unsure of how to complete. I went fromdoing 10k jobs to 250k jobs in a year. But you know what was different between me and you, I knew how to do the work. If you had experience doing patios etc and just came here for man hour advice then you might of gotten a different response from the lawnsite members.


And year yout overhead most likely is not 300 a month. It cost me more then 300 to roll out of bed in the morning.

600rrpilot
08-28-2008, 11:21 AM
stick to sod. driveways are no place to learn the industry. Ive been doing pavers and walls for around 5-6 years and just finished my first driveway. I dont think you have ANY understanding of the basic's...let alone the complications that can arise from such a large project.


"Or maybe just maybe i will come back with a couple pictures and have my paycheck and be done with it"...... I wouldnt spend that paycheck too quickly afterwards...you may spend a nice chunk of change fixing some things after your "done with it"

tthomass
08-28-2008, 12:40 PM
Luckily I've grown from doing that $100 sod job that was right over 2yrs ago........just a little though, but I am trying hard.

mwmdesigns
08-28-2008, 05:39 PM
Contact a local paving Co. and get a price from them to take care of the base for you. Huge time saver and they do it every day!

Hardscaping
08-28-2008, 07:02 PM
this is a good idea and i will look into it. i will check ther pricing on doing it that way.

last night i stayed up untill 3am reading and watching everything i could take in from the icpi website.

I must say i have a bit of a different perspective now and i now believe after reading this that yes i did leave a few things out.

eg...

the density testing

the geogrid under the base

i also thinking that screeding and laying will take 5 days but base prep will take about 6 to 7

i do believe that i can do this job and will do it to the canadian standards.

the pattern i will be laying will be herring bone on the 90 degree angle to prevent more cuts along the striaght of the driveway. whic is one of the biggest parts. this will cut my cutting time down.

The arc in the driveway will be cut in place saving time. i will be using a line and center point of the arc to mark the cuts.


there will be a soldier course for the edge. The base will be 8 inch final depth,
and i have compensated for the overfill on the sides for the edging to be place in at 8 inches deep compacted and this will take approx extra 10 to 15 yards of road gravel.

i will be using concrete sand for bedding sand and using mason sand for filling the joints. I will recomend to the homeowner that poly sand will be better and have less maintenance involved because of run outs. I will charge extra for this sand!

The base prep i will see about pricing on subing it out and see the difference in cost of doing it myself or subbing it out for someone else to do it for me. if the difference is a good margin to still make money off the job then i will do it and be there the whole time that they are doing it. to learn the tricks they use for doing it quickly and correctly.

Hardscaping
08-28-2008, 07:03 PM
I have also been looking at other paver jobs with this similar size arc and have noticed they don't cut the soldier course. only every once in a while will you see a piece that they cut. and they all still look good.

Rex Mann
08-28-2008, 08:49 PM
I am teaching one next month in Phoenix.
It would pay for itself.

Peace,

Rex

westernmdlawn
08-28-2008, 09:06 PM
Geogrid under the sand? It's actually not "geogrid." What you are referring to is loosely called base separation fabric, a high strength woven fabric intended to eliminate the migration of aggregate into the subsoil. This promotes the integrity of the base structure and pavement performance in general.

Also, I really, really don't think you are gonna be able to lay your 6K square feet of pavers in 5 days. That would be 1250 sq. ft. / day! Not with 3 people - not happening. According to the ICPI, the industy standard is that one man can be expected to lay 250 square feet in one 8 hour day. That means, even if you are good and your crew is good you are looking at 750 square a day realistically.

Here are some helpful things I've discovered along the way which might save you lots of time and money.

You may already know this, but I'll tell you anyway in case you don't; if you lay your field pavers "heavy" (further past where they really will stop) then you can mark your cuts and cut the field in place on the groud with your gas chop saw. This saves alot of time. You will need to score the marks first cutting 1/4" or less on this pass, then make subsequent passes to finish the cut. Be careful not to run your blade into the sand too much, as that will accelerate your diamond blade wear. You are going to use a diamond blade right? Also when cutting curves that are too sharp to cut with the 14" chop saw blade on your field pavers, score the marks with the gas saw, then cut the pavers with the wet brick saw. This way the top cut will look right, and it won't matter what the cut on the bottom looks like (it can be choppy, it won't be visible). Another tip: If you are gonna use a soldier course border paver, you will have length-wise cuts to make at the curves. When cutting these pavers, cut both sides of every other paver to achieve a better finished look. Also, when you do your field cuts the way I have described, you will likely mess up some of the screeded sand where the border pavers will go. When the time comes to lay your border pavers you will have to fix this sand. In order to re-screed this sand, find a 4' or so piece of 2"x6" lumber which is not warped or twisted. Then measure the thickness of your pavers (I'm guessing 3" in your application?) and mark one end about 10" from the end of the 2x6. Then rip the board to remove the section which is the exact thickness of whatever size pavers you are using. The end result should leave you with a 2x6x4 shaped like flag (sort of). In other words, you will be ripping the 2x6 so that you remove a 3"x 38" chunk from the lengthwise edge. You can then use this as a screed to screed the sand where the border pavers will go. You will have a 10" section hanging over the field pavers (room enough for your 8" pavers).

Also mark your pavers with a black sharpie. Pencil, chalk dust, and wax crayon don't hold up as well under the cutting conditions it will be subjected to (water from teh wet saw, dust, etc.). Just make sure you cut off the marks when you cut.

keep your bobcat bucket nearby when you are cutting so you only have to handle the scraps one time.

Get your self some brick tongs for additional productivity and reduced fatigue.

Get your self some rubber coated gloves for handling the pavers. Concrete is very hard on your skin.

Save the fines or gravel dust for the last 1/2 inch or so of your base prep to make fine tuning easier.

Have someone help you when you are dry sawing with your chop saw. They can lightly mist your blade to keep the harmful dust down. This dust also makes everything filthy nearby such as the homeowners fancy cars, decks, siding, etc.

When cutting field pavers with the gas chop saw, be sure to angle your blade so that the bottom of the field pavers are cut in further than the top. This way the border pavers will fit flush against the field pavers. Otherwise you will have gaps in your border / field paver connections.

That's a start, and an good set of examples for why you need experience for that job. The information I just gave you could potentially have saved you thousands of dollars.

Hardscaping
08-28-2008, 09:36 PM
I am teaching one next month in Phoenix.
It would pay for itself.

Peace,

Rex

I am going to start looking for a course here in my area within an hour drive or so. for icpi i will ask the suppliers tomorrow if there are any coming here soon.

Hardscaping
08-28-2008, 09:43 PM
Wester that is some good advice, i appreciate it. The laying time of the pavers though i don't agree on. For the size of the area i do strongly believe i can lay the 1250 square feet a day without a problem.

Once the screeding is done the start of the pavers go down the rest will go down a bit quicker i believe.

Once i get to the arc though it might take a bit longer then the striaght away of the driveway.

I could be wrong! It could possibly be that it will take this long. I don't mind if it takes longer though i will just take my time and do it right, The idea is to get the good bit experience and do the job right.

Mike33
08-28-2008, 09:56 PM
Geogrid under the sand? It's actually not "geogrid." What you are referring to is loosely called base separation fabric, a high strength woven fabric intended to eliminate the migration of aggregate into the subsoil. This promotes the integrity of the base structure and pavement performance in general.

Also, I really, really don't think you are gonna be able to lay your 6K square feet of pavers in 5 days. That would be 1250 sq. ft. / day! Not with 3 people - not happening. According to the ICPI, the industy standard is that one man can be expected to lay 250 square feet in one 8 hour day. That means, even if you are good and your crew is good you are looking at 750 square a day realistically.

Here are some helpful things I've discovered along the way which might save you lots of time and money.

You may already know this, but I'll tell you anyway in case you don't; if you lay your field pavers "heavy" (further past where they really will stop) then you can mark your cuts and cut the field in place on the groud with your gas chop saw. This saves alot of time. You will need to score the marks first cutting 1/4" or less on this pass, then make subsequent passes to finish the cut. Be careful not to run your blade into the sand too much, as that will accelerate your diamond blade wear. You are going to use a diamond blade right? Also when cutting curves that are too sharp to cut with the 14" chop saw blade on your field pavers, score the marks with the gas saw, then cut the pavers with the wet brick saw. This way the top cut will look right, and it won't matter what the cut on the bottom looks like (it can be choppy, it won't be visible). Another tip: If you are gonna use a soldier course border paver, you will have length-wise cuts to make at the curves. When cutting these pavers, cut both sides of every other paver to achieve a better finished look. Also, when you do your field cuts the way I have described, you will likely mess up some of the screeded sand where the border pavers will go. When the time comes to lay your border pavers you will have to fix this sand. In order to re-screed this sand, find a 4' or so piece of 2"x6" lumber which is not warped or twisted. Then measure the thickness of your pavers (I'm guessing 3" in your application?) and mark one end about 10" from the end of the 2x6. Then rip the board to remove the section which is the exact thickness of whatever size pavers you are using. The end result should leave you with a 2x6x4 shaped like flag (sort of). In other words, you will be ripping the 2x6 so that you remove a 3"x 38" chunk from the lengthwise edge. You can then use this as a screed to screed the sand where the border pavers will go. You will have a 10" section hanging over the field pavers (room enough for your 8" pavers).

Also mark your pavers with a black sharpie. Pencil, chalk dust, and wax crayon don't hold up as well under the cutting conditions it will be subjected to (water from teh wet saw, dust, etc.). Just make sure you cut off the marks when you cut.

keep your bobcat bucket nearby when you are cutting so you only have to handle the scraps one time.

Get your self some brick tongs for additional productivity and reduced fatigue.

Get your self some rubber coated gloves for handling the pavers. Concrete is very hard on your skin.

Save the fines or gravel dust for the last 1/2 inch or so of your base prep to make fine tuning easier.

Have someone help you when you are dry sawing with your chop saw. They can lightly mist your blade to keep the harmful dust down. This dust also makes everything filthy nearby such as the homeowners fancy cars, decks, siding, etc.

When cutting field pavers with the gas chop saw, be sure to angle your blade so that the bottom of the field pavers are cut in further than the top. This way the border pavers will fit flush against the field pavers. Otherwise you will have gaps in your border / field paver connections.

That's a start, and an good set of examples for why you need experience for that job. The information I just gave you could potentially have saved you thousands of dollars.
Brian, your really impressing me keep up the good work.
mike

Hardscaping
08-28-2008, 10:03 PM
you are right about the geo grid it is a wooven geotextile for under the base.

Hardscaping
08-28-2008, 10:08 PM
thank you for the clean up!

shovelracer
08-28-2008, 10:52 PM
You are going to screed as you go. Dont think you can screed out 1500 feet in the morning and then start laying pavers. Well you could but then you run the risk of the sand getting compacted, contaminated, wet, etc. You will need to fill in you pipe gaps as you go anyways. ICPI says 250 per man day, but if you are learning you will be less. Not only is each guy laying a 25 x 10 area, but screeding, filling, moving sand, and carrying pavers. You will need 1 guy always laying, another guy with a paver cart dropping bricks and moving sand, another guy filling, screeding, and helping lay pavers. Not to mention working around string lines, compacting, etc.

Get a big box of gloves, a few back braces, and book a vacation at a spa after your done cause your back will need it. You could also get some contract day laborers, but this would cost you all your originally estimated profit. This is a big job man, not something 3 guys should attempt to tackle. To many variables IMO. Make sure your honest with the homeowner cause it will show real fast. 3 guys with variables, your looking at close to a month by the time you get final payment.

Hardscaping
08-28-2008, 10:58 PM
Yeah i think it will be about 3 weeks total at most The homeowner will be notified it will take this long. i will do the straight of the driveway first then the arc cause the straight is the part that will be needed to be finish first.

PatriotLandscape
08-28-2008, 11:04 PM
I know someone may have already said this but use a local excavation company for the base prep it will save you days. what i need to charge 3k for the local exco guy here will do for just under 2k bigger trucks and bigger equipment. then you will fine tune and screed well worth the $$ and the PITA it will be to do it yourself.

Hardscaping
08-29-2008, 12:36 AM
i am going to call someone tomorrow on this, I have a guy that does the grading and preping for the subdivision i am doing some other work in and he is really good from what i have seen so far i will call him and see what he says.

etwman
08-29-2008, 11:51 AM
I wouldn't say its not possible to lay 1200 sf a day with three guys. We averaged around 1350 a day with three at the clubhouse project. However, and this is a big however, you absolutely need to know what you are doing AND use the right equipment. Moving pavers twice will kill you, pick from the pallet and lay. Don't kneel, lay pavers standing up, you'll move faster. Lay a section, do an initial compaction, lay down plywood, plank in, and take a skid of pavers right to where you are laying with a track skid loader. The closer you can get with a pallet (via track machine or pavercart) the better you'll be. Stage a few skids before you screed sand at places you can't get too after you screeded.

If your builder has a high lift there (Pettibone) etc. see if you can use that. I've done that before and you can telescope those things in 50 feet. If you can pick off the pallet you'll might stand a chance. Your guys will be most energetic the first day. Don't go nuts the first day or they'll be worthless the next few.

If you end up making $1 on this project you need to seriously thank these other guys on this thread who have given you some invaluable tips.

Hardscaping
08-29-2008, 01:48 PM
using the telescopic forklift is a great idea and i think i will ask the builder or someone in the area if i can't use or rent theirs for a couple days if it is worth the money.

PatriotLandscape
08-29-2008, 11:53 PM
here those rent for 400+ a day not really worth it just buy a paver cart you'll be happier.

YardPro
08-31-2008, 06:58 PM
subcontract the whole job and make a few bucks and observe a crew that knows what they are doing.

PlatinumLandCon
08-31-2008, 07:08 PM
subcontract the whole job and make a few bucks and observe a crew that knows what they are doing.

He couldn't sub it for 40-whatever thousand he bid.

Hardscaping
08-31-2008, 08:05 PM
I am going to do the job an hire a couple other people to come in on the job with me and one helper. i have a couple people in mind and i will be paying them really well too.

I think this job will go ahead in the next two weeks and i do think that i can handle it with my plan. I might be able to sub it out but that doesn't help me out much when another company shows up with their names all over everything they drive.

mrusk
08-31-2008, 08:10 PM
For 150 a hour i'll come out and consult you on this job.

Hardscaping
08-31-2008, 09:38 PM
Thanks but i have it covered. My father wants to come see his grand children anyways and has been in the business for about 28 years now so i would be glad to pay him what he wants to come!

Hardscaping
09-01-2008, 01:39 AM
If i pay someone to come in and work on the job with me there would be a good chance of 40 to 45 dollars an hour for the person as a subcontractor. they pay their taxes and i get a receipt. i would say this is fair.

They would have to work though not just stand there telling everybody what to do!

PatriotLandscape
09-01-2008, 11:44 AM
If i pay someone to come in and work on the job with me there would be a good chance of 40 to 45 dollars an hour for the person as a subcontractor. they pay their taxes and i get a receipt. i would say this is fair.

They would have to work though not just stand there telling everybody what to do!

Hold up a minute. how are YOU going to make money off of someone paying them 40-45 as a sub. good subs here and i really should say great subs here work for 30 tops but 25 is more the average. at 40-45 you will be broke and have a half finished driveway.

This is starting to look like one of those bad flip this house episodes.

Do you even have the contract signed yet?

Hardscaping
09-01-2008, 03:38 PM
contractors here get a bit more money or won't even consider it!

Also at that rate they won't be there the whole job anyways they will be there in stages. I don't really even need them.

mrusk
09-01-2008, 04:36 PM
Hold up a minute. how are YOU going to make money off of someone paying them 40-45 as a sub. good subs here and i really should say great subs here work for 30 tops but 25 is more the average. at 40-45 you will be broke and have a half finished driveway.

This is starting to look like one of those bad flip this house episodes.

Do you even have the contract signed yet?


Patriot those prices seem way low. I have employees making almost 25 a hour!!!

PatriotLandscape
09-01-2008, 05:51 PM
Patriot those prices seem way low. I have employees making almost 25 a hour!!!

I am talking about essentially day labor subs not someone who actually has a business doing the trade.

Which seems like that is what he'd be hiring.

Not the same way as sub'ing out exco. or something.

PatriotLandscape
09-01-2008, 05:57 PM
do you pay 25 dollars an hour for skilled labor? that is high for my area. here skilled labors get 17-22 tops and after that they need to start running multiple crews and middle management.

Hardscaping
09-01-2008, 05:59 PM
No this price would be for someone that has their own business. for a skilled labourer then the rate would be right where you are talking about 20 to 30

mrusk
09-01-2008, 06:10 PM
And my guy is still asking me for a raise!

I guess you could say he runs 1 crew. He lays out the job and directs the guys. Sets all elevations, etc. I get him all the material.

I haven't laid anything out myself in 2 years.

Hardscaping
09-01-2008, 06:13 PM
Well i will see how things go. i am still waiting on a reply from the guy for the grading to be done. once grading is done i would imagine i will be starting right away.

If i get the job i do, if i don't then i don't, not much i can do about it if i don't get the job.

Hardscaping
09-11-2008, 08:25 PM
so the grading is done the guy is in the states on business and he will be back in a couple days. I wish i had to be there before the guy did the grading. but what can i do.

The drive way is layed out bigger than originally talked about. it is approx.. 7300 to 7500 sq ft. haven't measured it again.

Now the guy that did the grading has put down a bunch of a gravel and rolled it in i guess this could be a plus i haven't really looked it over close at all yet just drove by.

I am thinking it might be possible, that he might have someone else to do the driveway, I hope not.

I will find out next week.

Also there is like 20000 sq ft of sod to do there debating on giving him a builder price or just the regular price difference is about 5 cents to 10 cents a sq ft.

I am thinking about ).16 per sq ft to just install sod. the grading for topsoil is done really good so i can charge that little and get away with it.

YardPro
09-11-2008, 08:40 PM
so you don't even know if you have the job yet????
seriously... 7500 sqft is WAY out of your league.....

greenguy08
09-11-2008, 08:47 PM
:dizzy:Dude, this is a $100,000 install! I don't even know what to say.....

kootoomootoo
09-11-2008, 09:02 PM
i think some guys just like to talk in big numbers,

PlatinumLandCon
09-11-2008, 09:20 PM
I am thinking about ).16 per sq ft to just install sod. the grading for topsoil is done really good so i can charge that little and get away with it.

Dude thats ******ed. What is a 10sf roll costing you? For me its 1.50.... that means you'll make a penny/sf. Go downtown and pick up change and you make more money.

Hardscaping
09-11-2008, 10:03 PM
Dude thats ******ed. What is a 10sf roll costing you? For me its 1.50.... that means you'll make a penny/sf. Go downtown and pick up change and you make more money.


This is just to install not to supply an install the roll costs me 18 cents a sq ft so 1.80 a roll deliver and it goes down at 7000 sq ft and 10000 sq ft so for this job it would be about 16 cents a foot delivered.

Hardscaping
09-11-2008, 10:12 PM
7500 sq ft i will be charging him $60000 to supply and install i don't know how you guys come up with these big numbers of $100000 for this driveway there is a eight inch base and 1 inch of sand there and the pavers are only costing $1.75 a sq ft for the interlock.

How much are you paying for the pavers where you guys are?

How much you paying for a gravel where you are?

How much you paying for anything to make this job cost the h\o $13.50 a sq ft?

When you are dealing with higher quantity you don't charge the full price as if you were installing a 350 sq ft driveway. There is a difference between 350 sq ft and making it worth the time to do it by charging the 13 and up a sq ft i would have to say that yes i could probably put the price up by a bit but i can garuantee i will not get the job by putting my price up.

If i can make money the way i am pricing it then i will.

Again if you guys can prove me wrong do so if not then don't comment on it.

PatriotLandscape
09-11-2008, 10:33 PM
This is just to install not to supply an install the roll costs me 18 cents a sq ft so 1.80 a roll deliver and it goes down at 7000 sq ft and 10000 sq ft so for this job it would be about 16 cents a foot delivered.

what the hell does .16 a square mean? Really are you running a business or are you some fly by night guy in a pick up. You need to do more research on building a business rather than getting into a job that you will be way under capitalized to complete.

Do you realize the funding you need for that size project.

Just stop posting until you have a signed contract.

PatriotLandscape
09-11-2008, 10:35 PM
7500 sq ft i will be charging him $60000 to supply and install i don't know how you guys come up with these big numbers of $100000 for this driveway there is a eight inch base and 1 inch of sand there and the pavers are only costing $1.75 a sq ft for the interlock.

How much are you paying for the pavers where you guys are?

How much you paying for a gravel where you are?

How much you paying for anything to make this job cost the h\o $13.50 a sq ft?

When you are dealing with higher quantity you don't charge the full price as if you were installing a 350 sq ft driveway. There is a difference between 350 sq ft and making it worth the time to do it by charging the 13 and up a sq ft i would have to say that yes i could probably put the price up by a bit but i can garuantee i will not get the job by putting my price up.

If i can make money the way i am pricing it then i will.

Again if you guys can prove me wrong do so if not then don't comment on it.

You don't even have a damn signed contract. Do you know what a contractor is without a contract?

Not a contractor!!!

You talk as if you know what your doing. You may be able to talk the talk now but when you put sand to the ground you will learn a whole lot more.

Hardscaping
09-11-2008, 10:35 PM
the $0.16 is the per sqft price of the install for the 20000 sq ft of sod he needs.

Hardscaping
09-11-2008, 10:38 PM
You don't even have a damn signed contract. Do you know what a contractor is without a contract?

Not a contractor!!!

You talk as if you know what your doing. You may be able to talk the talk now but when you put sand to the ground you will learn a whole lot more.


I hope that i learn a whole lot that would be great!

NEVER EVEN HEARD THE WORD CONTRACTOR I AM A LANDSCAPER!

zedosix
09-11-2008, 10:54 PM
Come on dude, just lay some brick and let us pick it apart, enough with the prelude. On with the show!!!!!!!!!!!

Hardscaping
09-11-2008, 10:59 PM
lol i want to lay it, just have to work around other people. I will post up some pictures.

Zedo seriously have you ever delt with hanson products the niagara pavers, they are cheap only 1.75 per sq ft, and do you think that these can be layed for this pric, with a 8 inch base?

shovelracer
09-11-2008, 11:04 PM
I still dont understand how 8" base is going to work in Canada. We have to use more than that here in NJ. Up in ME they go upwards of 2 feet. How are you getting away with 8" and not going to get all sorts of movement. It does get cold in Ont. doesnt it?

greenguy08
09-11-2008, 11:11 PM
Shovelracer, you beat me to posting on this one, but right on! Is it LEGAL to use 8" of base for a driveway there? We use 12'' minimum here in Ohio!

Hardscaping
09-11-2008, 11:14 PM
i am looking into the standards again i have compensated for 10 inches for the driveway anyways.

zedosix
09-11-2008, 11:16 PM
lol i want to lay it, just have to work around other people. I will post up some pictures.

Zedo seriously have you ever delt with hanson products the niagara pavers, they are cheap only 1.75 per sq ft, and do you think that these can be layed for this pric, with a 8 inch base?

I haven't used their product but I'm sure they will go down fine, if the variances are not off by more than 1/16" you should be good to go. We are in a colder climate than you but not by much and we excavate to 16" min. for driveway applications, so 8" is barely acceptable in my opinion. They can be laid for that price and you will likely make money, he's installed the base and all you have to do is spread sand and lay brick. You have done this before am I right?

getthenet
09-11-2008, 11:17 PM
looking forward to pics. Hope all goes well.

PatriotLandscape
09-11-2008, 11:28 PM
I hope that i learn a whole lot that would be great!

NEVER EVEN HEARD THE WORD CONTRACTOR I AM A LANDSCAPER!

ehh the full term is Landscape Contractor. Are you a leaf raker or are you with the big boys in construction? your choice landscape contractor or landscaper.

I think most would agree that we are all contractors since we all use contracts to run our business.

Hardscaping
09-11-2008, 11:29 PM
they put a base in i don't think i am going to use it though i will have to rework the base because of the various depths and everything in it, still needs work to be a paver base. I have to check the base that is down and then verify the differences in it, i think he might be doing as all others in that area do. They get the base prepared and use that for thw first winter season to let it settle and then in the begining of summer they fix up any imperfections and then install the pavers. This is a good idea stops the initial settle of the pavers from the house being only built within a year.

I have done pavers before the biggest job i have done so far is 1200 sq ft. I did this job under my dad it was a walkway and driveway and patio.

PatriotLandscape
09-11-2008, 11:30 PM
I still don't understand what the .16 represents. sounds like fuzzy or voodoo math. that number does not represent anything why not .17 or .15 a square?

Hardscaping
09-11-2008, 11:31 PM
ehh the full term is Landscape Contractor. Are you a leaf raker or are you with the big boys in construction? your choice landscape contractor or landscaper.

I think most would agree that we are all contractors since we all use contracts to run our business.


I was just being hard to get along with, joking around.

I am a landscape construction contractor

I don't rake leaves nor do i push a lawn mower ( not that there is something wrong with it )

I like the creativeness i am allowed to have with landscape construction
not much i could do with a lawn mower.

Hardscaping
09-11-2008, 11:34 PM
I still don't understand what the .16 represents. sounds like fuzzy or voodoo math. that number does not represent anything why not .17 or .15 a square?

The number 0.16 represents how much i will charge per sq ft to lay the sod on the property for him, he supplies the sod and the topsoil is already down and spread really good at that just some raking with a three foot rake and good to go.

I will multiply that by the total sq ft needed 20000 equals $3200.00 to show up rake topsoil and lay the sod. Take one day with me and four employees, provided the delivery guy puts the sod where i tell him.

JohnnyRoyale
09-12-2008, 08:31 AM
13 pages so far and we still dont knopw if he's got the job!!! WTF?? This is going to be a large thread once he signs.

Hardscaping
09-12-2008, 12:53 PM
lol it will won't it.

PatriotLandscape
09-12-2008, 06:19 PM
really how much longer before the guy signs the contract?

Hardscaping
09-12-2008, 07:26 PM
The guy gets back on sunday so monday i should be going there then. I will get him to get the job done or at least do the sod this year.

I think that letting the driveway settle for the season is a good idea but if he wants it done before winter then so be it.

csl
09-13-2008, 12:39 AM
here comes another ehhhhhhhhh!!!!. every post of yours i read you always have the customer pay for supplies, then you charge the labor (or labour). its time to step up to the plate and make some decisions. when customers start yanking you around, you walk away, things never get better and they will be like this through the entire job. we no longer do installs for churches or private groups. the last two churches we did have 8 bosses telling us what to, whenever one member would leave the next would sneak up and tell us what was best. be assertive. and there is no way that with four guys you are laying 20,000 feet of sod in a day. we just installed 35,000 feet with four employees and bobcats, took us 3 days. long days, and this is 14 years of sod laying experience.

Hardscaping
09-13-2008, 12:54 AM
no it will take 2 days with four employees, It is possible to do 20000 a day but i say it would take two with the employees because they don't go as fast as they can. an employee should be able to lay at least 500 sq feet an hour personally i can lay 1000 an hour. this is after it is raked. So with one guy on the rake and three guys laying with 500 sq ft an hour each we would be looking at about 18000 to be layed in one day easily. start at 7 am and then stop around 8 pm half hour for lunch and then two fifteen minute ones between the other 30 minutes.

csl
09-13-2008, 01:02 AM
wake up please....no offense,but most of us here have been doing this a helluva lot longer then you have and have had the same problems you are having. be realistic. you are in way over your head with this driveway, we just jackhammered out an existing drive, approx. 1000' sq with walk, excavate, gravel, pack, sand, pave,... and it took 3 days with a crew of mine that does mainly pavers. you are looking at 6 months if you are your crew do this drive. where are people gonna park? and as far as the sod goes, i have had crews lay over 10,000 feet in a day, but they dont come back the next. there is no way you can make them work 13 hrs, give them a half hour lunch break, and expect people to get all that done. also, here in the states we a little agency called L&I, they love to prey on jobs like that.

Hardscaping
09-13-2008, 01:15 AM
i don't think you have read the thread.

The drive way is at a new house there is no demo to be done. most of the base is done already with fixing up the base that is down and compact final layer and then screeding and laying and cutins i will be looking at 2 1\2 weeks at most.

Hardscaping
09-13-2008, 01:18 AM
wake up please....no offense,but most of us here have been doing this a helluva lot longer then you have and have had the same problems you are having. be realistic. you are in way over your head with this driveway, we just jackhammered out an existing drive, approx. 1000' sq with walk, excavate, gravel, pack, sand, pave,... and it took 3 days with a crew of mine that does mainly pavers. you are looking at 6 months if you are your crew do this drive. where are people gonna park? and as far as the sod goes, i have had crews lay over 10,000 feet in a day, but they dont come back the next. there is no way you can make them work 13 hrs, give them a half hour lunch break, and expect people to get all that done. also, here in the states we a little agency called L&I, they love to prey on jobs like that.


Me and one guy layed 4500 sq ft in 5 hours with a half hour lunch break on top of the five hours now don't tell me that i don't know what i am doing when it comes to sod, i do. I started laying sod probably about 12 to 14 years ago, family business aren't they wonderfull doing child labour.



The sod should easily be able to be layed 15 to 20 000 a day with a crew of fours guys plus me that is 5 people laying on average 500 each per hour with one person raking then we work 11 hours going at that speed then we could lay the 20000 in the one day, with small breaks and talking i added the extra two hours to compensate for that. You must be forgetting that i said the area is graded and topsoil is spread really well already just need to touch over with rake.

So i will give it one and half days just to make you happy.

Hardscaping
09-13-2008, 02:13 AM
Well i have put some thought into this job and witht he newer addition of work being added to my company of doing interlock inlays into pavement, this job might be a good one to get the owner to go with my new idea. Use pavement for most of the driveway, then once pavement is down install my interlock inlay design.

I am going to pitch this to the guy, as he wants to get a really good price for something that will look good. by doing it this way he might be able to save hime self about 20,000 to 30,000 dollars rather then paying 60,000 for the driveway he can budget for only 30,000 have the driveway paved then i can design a inlay and have a contract agreed upon before the asphalt is even done.

I am actually excited about this idea and i think he will go for it.

Tom B.
09-13-2008, 03:52 AM
If your father has been in the industry for 28 years and you've done a 1,200 sq. ft. paver drive,walk and patio, why are you asking such remedial questions. Oh, and by the way, $20 a day in fuel x an avgerage of 20 working days per month = $400.

Hardscaping
09-13-2008, 01:24 PM
you are good at math. If you are refering to my overhead costs i said for my insurances and regular payments for my company is what i mentioned for. The cost of fuel wasn't added into the overead it says that.

And by the way i don't go through $20 a day i maybe go through 10 a day i don't drive around much unless i am out doing quotes. $20 a day is alot of going. i am not a maintenance person i don't drive to 20 different houses everyday.

Mike33
09-13-2008, 03:54 PM
One of the top 10 longest threads and not a paver or block layed yet. :laugh:
Mike

Adam's Lawn and Garden
09-13-2008, 08:51 PM
How do you only go through $10 of fuel a day? Are you driving a gas powered golf cart or what? I use $10 in gas by lunch time usually, if not sooner.

Hardscaping
09-13-2008, 09:43 PM
I only drive from my house to the job then from the job to my house for work that is it maybe drive for lunch.
I stay on my jobsites as a matter of fact i do most of the work for my jobs as well. I am just starting on my own.

Adam's Lawn and Garden
09-14-2008, 01:31 AM
I feel you should go back and rethink what you want your company to specialize in. First, you say about a paver driveway. Then, you decide your company will focus on that paver driveway interlay things. In a matter of hours it seemed. There appears to be too much mind changing here to want to tackle a driveway project of this size and ability of a company to do it. Which brings up an interesting question. What equipment do you have to use in this job? Trucks, Loaders, etc.?

zedosix
09-14-2008, 08:20 AM
At 7 dollars a gallon I find that 10 dollars of gas your burning a day to be quite low. Unless you are working at your neighbours place.

Tom B.
09-14-2008, 12:30 PM
Yes, I am good at math. But, you still didn't answer my question. I'm not trying to bring you down, just wandering if you honestly have the knowledge, ability and resources to complete this job in a professional manner. Myself and many others on this site have already walked in your shoes and I believe are just looking out for you. I commend you for maintaining a positive attitude throughout this thread and only wish you the best.

JohnnyRoyale
09-14-2008, 03:49 PM
15 pages and still comments about a job that doesnt exist!!!

mattfromNY
09-14-2008, 04:11 PM
Is this Bobby messin around again??
Get lots of guys going askin a bunch of questions about a ficticious project, then sittin back and laugh at how roused y'all get with all this foolishness??
The guy doesn't even have a signed contract, put in a bid and doesn't even know yet how to do the work or how he will do the work?? Throws out a number on a product he hasn't used yet or know anything about??
Sounds like a local contractor I know that throws out a lowball price, then when he lands the project he gets out the 'change order' sheets and the price starts skyrocketing as he figures out what he needs while doing the project. He makes lots of friends this way, too.
??????????????????????????????????????

Hardscaping
09-14-2008, 10:12 PM
The equipment i have is all rented except for the quick cut i just bought 14"

Now i am looking into buying a pickup rather than using my suv for doing work.

When i give my price out i detail what is included if they want to go above and beyond what is included yes there are extra costs involved. I outline everything i do and that way i am not stuck doing something i am not getting paid for. Have done it once before and regret doing the extra work for free.

Yes gas is expensive but this job is actually only down the street from me, i also pick up one employee that lives around the corner from me so i don't have to do much driving.

JohnnyRoyale
09-15-2008, 06:59 AM
Ive heard it ll now...I'm out!.

Michael J. Donovan
09-15-2008, 11:57 AM
I think it is safe to put this one to rest guys...let's move on