can anyone identify this weed

[mac43rn]

the lawn is made up of a tall three way blend fescue. There are a few places (4-5) that have a few clumps of this weed. Can anyone identify and will a general herbicide get ride of it?

[stick9]

Yeah, man, it looks like Hydro dude .. what'd you pay for that? Looks like some killer weed.


You're title is hilarious. I'm sorry, it's been a rough week.

StiCk-NinE

[Fantasy Lawns]

http://www.weedalert.com/index.shtml

[LAWNGODFATHER]

FRom what I can tell of the pic, it's Quackgrass/Couchgrass.

[KirbysLawn]

Looks like Poa Annua. Hard to tell, I will try to find a better photo.

Here is a thread, the photo of Poa Annua is in my post about half way down:

http://www.lawnsite.com/showthread.php?threadid=18732&perpage=30&pagenumber=1

http://www.ipm.ucdavis.edu/PMG/IMAGES/P/W-GM-PANN-MP.001.gif

[LAWNGODFATHER]

I thought the same thing as Ray, but I couldn't veiw the pic real well.

[Chuck Sinclair]

Originally posted by KirbysLawn
Looks like Poa Annua. Hard to tell, I will try to find a better photo.

Here is a thread, the photo of Poa Annua is in my post about half way down:

http://www.lawnsite.com/showthread.php?threadid=18732&perpage=30&pagenumber=1

http://www.ipm.ucdavis.edu/PMG/IMAGES/P/W-GM-PANN-MP.001.gif

Ray, Me thinks you nailed it thats what it looked like to me too.

[David Haggerty]

Decisions decisions...

[williamslawn]

Yes, that is Poa Annua we have allot of it here in SC. We spray in fall to controll in the winter.

[CPLLTT]

OK, for us non-latin speakin folks out here, is that annual bluegrass? It appears to be to me and its a common problem here in Oregon, especially near golf courses.

[KirbysLawn]

Originally posted by CPLLTT
OK, for us non-latin speakin folks out here, is that annual bluegrass? It appears to be to me and its a common problem here in Oregon, especially near golf courses.

Yes

[mac43rn]

so how do i kill it. will a herbicide get rid of it in the spring?

[KirbysLawn]

Originally posted by mac43rn
so how do i kill it. will a herbicide get rid of it in the spring?

Poa Annua is best controlled using pre-emergents. Poa annua seeds start to germinate when ground temps get below 80 degrees. You can use non-selective herbicides but I wouldn't. The only herbicide I know of is Prograss, I have not used it so I can't really give much info on it or how well it works. Maybe Jim or one of the norther guys can help.

http://www.es.aventis.com/green/productguides/Prograss.Golf.Prod.Ref.Gui.pdf

[Chuck Sinclair]

Well from what i'm reading here Ronstar will get rid of it and now is the right time to apply it.

[KirbysLawn]

Originally posted by Chuck Sinclair
Well from what i'm reading here Ronstar will get rid of it and now is the right time to apply it.

Ronstar is a pre-emergent and will not get rid of what's there, it will only help if the seedlings have not germinated. Around here poa annua starts in late sept and then has another burst in mid Feb. I usually apply pre-m's in Feb to lawn that have a history of poa annua, Here are the labels for Ronstar and Prograss:

ProGrass: http://www.es.aventis.com/green/productguides/Prograss.Golf.Prod.Ref.Gui.pdf

Ronstar: http://www.cdms.net/ldat/ld4FH003.pdf

[LAWNGODFATHER]

Round -Up or Finaly will do just fine. LOL

[groundsguy1970]

I beg to differ on pre m not killing sprouted annuals. It prunes roots...An annual won't have the root system to withstand the blast if applied @ the proper life cycle interval. That being said, application PRIOR to germanation is BEST.....pre-m's will thin your turf out...I recommend overseeding instead.:)

[KirbysLawn]

Originally posted by groundsguy1970
I beg to differ on pre m not killing sprouted annuals.

Uh, OK.


Any literature to back that up?
Which pre-m will kill existing poa annua?
Any labels?


I'm learning something new here so teach on...

[LAWNGODFATHER]

Originally posted by groundsguy1970
I beg to differ on pre m not killing sprouted annuals. It prunes roots...An annual won't have the root system to withstand the blast if applied @ the proper life cycle interval. That being said, application PRIOR to germanation is BEST.....pre-m's will thin your turf out...I recommend overseeding instead.:)

Ok going to have to follow in Ray's foot steps here and dig a little deeper here.

Pre-em will thin my turf?

A grass plant has an estimated life cycle of 75 days. When the one dies, 2 take its place. NOT from seed, and that is what pre -em's prevent. Anti Germination!!!, but for only an aproximate length of time.

So if that's true teach on grasshopper.

[groundsguy1970]

Look it's pretty simple....

We know, regardless of what the label says the pre-m prunes roots.
Turfgrass grown WITHOUT pre-m will have a healthier root syetem.

A healthier root system means a healthier lawn......


I am NO fan of pre-m......I'll drop a bit of "pendy" in the spring but I mow short and fert hard on thanksgiving. Where I live that's the BEST time to fert.


I wait until I get dicots to drop NORSAC in beds.......Where I live our "native" grasses that people call "weed"grasses and the same ones that ServiceMaster sprays for don't like N....me being an IPM guy with a reel can mow out ann.poa with a scalp below .5 inch and don't really have a problem.


If you use pre-m you will not have a deep rooted turf which causes problem like broadleaf invasion of monocot invasion.....roots are the answer.

If you have a label of a pre-m that DOESN"T prune roots I'd like to see it grasshopper;)

[KirbysLawn]

Originally posted by groundsguy1970
Look it's pretty simple....

We know, regardless of what the label says the pre-m prunes roots.
Turfgrass grown WITHOUT pre-m will have a healthier root syetem.

A healthier root system means a healthier lawn......


Yes, turfgrass without pre-m's will have a healthier root system, that's because the entire root system is allowed to develop. And yes, a healthy root system means a healthy lawn. All this has nothing to do with the topic at hand. And no, pre-m's do not prune the root system.

As I asked for the first time, any facts or data to back up your speculation because it makes no since?

Poa Annua is one of the toughest of all weeds to control, if the pre-emergent controlled it in the post-emergent stage like you say, the entire golf industry would love this information! This one weed has proven to be the toughest of all to control.

Pre-M's do not "prune" the root system they inhibit cell division causing the roots to "club", once the roots are there pre-m's have little effect except on new roots at the crown, that's why they are called "pre" emergent's. Pre-emergent's will only effect growth form new roots coming from the crown, since established roots are below the pre-m barrier they are ineffective.

While you may choose to apply these chemicals to control poa annua and steal the customers money, it is a waste of time and money unless applied before the root system has developed and before the roots have penetrated below the pre-m barrier.

[jack D.]

Why all the quotes when you're responding to a post directly above. Will Round-up work on that?

[jack D.]

Originally posted by jack D.
Why all the quotes when you're responding to a post directly above. Will Round-up work on that?

Why all the quotes when you're responding to a post directly above. Will Round-Up work on that?

[KirbysLawn]

Nice stripes!

[GroundKprs]

You are both mostly correct, if one views your ideas from the perspective of your own locations. North vs South again. LOL. In WA, there is not heavy pressures from C4 weeds compared to NC. Especially in Kirby's region where tall fescue, a C3 grass, is the best turf choice, C4 weeds are a major concern. The untreated lawn in WA would see a lot less crabgrass than a similar sized NC lawn. Also annual blue is probably less of a concern in NC, because the summer heat readily knocks it out. (But then you have the bare spots, :rolleyes: ) Maybe it's better for some regions to try to prevent the invasion by annual blue?

But there is a legitimate concern about root pruning effects of most pre-ems. (In this context, root pruning = stubbing off of short roots, and prevention of new root growth from crown, in the area of the pre-em barrier.) You will probably not see anything published on this, because that would be negative advertising for the chemical industry. There are some golf managers in the Carolinas who are so concerned about this, that they do not apply pre-ems, but treat bi-weekly with low rates of Acclaim. If root pruning concerns you, you could go with Ronstar (NOT labelled for residential turf!!) or Tupersan as a pre-em if necessary.

There is really no functional reason to use a pre-em as a post-em to limit root growth of grassy weeds, except in the products that exhibit a post-em killing effect along with pre-em effect. Reducing root growth of an annual grassy weed does not hurt it that much, especially with Poa annua which has a shallow rooting system. See attached pic of crabgrass plants; left one had no pre-em, right one had pre-em applied just after germination. While the pre-em did cut off root development in the guy on right, it did not reduce growth of the above ground part that concerns us. Both plants are about 1-1/2 months old.

Short mowing does not help with Poa annua control. Ask any golf turf manager. But there is work being done, in the golf arena, to try to maintain annual blue as a turf ingredient. This is being done because so much effort has been done to control it, it might be easier to let it grow if we can help it to survive. I myself have a section of one lawn which is almost all annual blue; the one year in the last 12 that it died off in summer, I just told the client to wait a couple of months and he would have a nice lawn there again. And he did. Research has shown that Poa annua is not a true annual, it is just so weak in heat that diseases or drought readily kill it off.

[GroundKprs]

And here's a blowup of the stressed roots of the right pictured plant above. This is what pre-ems are doing to your desireable grass roots, too. Tried to point out two stubbed roots.

[KirbysLawn]

GReat post as usual Jim. The question at had is how to control established poa annua. My question to you is "would you apply pre-m's to established poa to control it"?

The guy that posted this thread would probably like to figure out what to do, I'm saying this and GG is saying that. What would you do to treat the established poa?

[GroundKprs]

I see, Ray. The ignorance of some of the comments here has probably caused confusion for those who wonder how to really control Poa annua. It is my belief that control is mostly best achieved in my area by cultural practices; this may at times include pre-ems, but would rarely involve post-emergent chemical controls. Any attempt at post-emerg control is going to be time consuming and costly, usually just used in golf or sports turf. Of course this could vary with someone's location in the country. (Or location on other planets?)

mac43m, for you, even though I am also in IN, you will need to find the best practices for your area. I am so far north of you that our overall environmental differences may make my specific practices incorrect for you. Best for you to start at <a href="http://www.agry.purdue.edu/turf/publicat.htm">Purdue Turf Publications</a>. The second item deals with annual blue, and you will get the general cultural practices to control annual blue. Using the PDF format, you can print out these docs just the same as going down to the county extension office to get printed copies. Your county extension officer can help you on specific problems and questions. If he does not have access to the exact answer you need, he will give you the phone number of an extension specialist at the Purdue campus who can help you. I won't even mention some of the wild questions I have had, called Purdue, and been able to find an exact answer to my question (One day it took them almost 45 min to refine my question, so they could get me the right answer. LOL)

http://www.agry.purdue.edu/turf/ will give some more turf info relevant to IN. You could also consider using IL turf info at http://www.turf.uiuc.edu/. You will not usually see repetition on the two, because states tend to work together as a region and just link to nearby state's sites for specific info, rather than each state having to post all of it.

Hope this helps some.

[groundsguy1970]

Will this make Kirby get off my case or is this done?
:rolleyes:

It's been said before......each area is site specific and something that makes sense in one place might not in another.....


I scalp poa ann. far shorter than a rotary mower will go and then slowly bring up the height and have not too many problems.......banyardgrass is a big one here...:(

[KirbysLawn]

Look Powerreel, I was not trying to get on your case I was trying to help this guy a little. I did not agree with your solution and it seems you don't even practice it yourself.

[groundsguy1970]

OKAY KIRBY.......
I don't do anything I say......


I bet you're not a chicken hawk, either.:eek:

chill.....:(