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AMCAT
08-25-2008, 10:44 AM
I have seen a number of burnt CAT machines on Salvagesale .com is this all they are good for or are these the only machines that have resale value when they get burnt so bad :dizzy:

ksss
08-25-2008, 12:57 PM
I have seen a number of burnt CAT machines on Salvagesale .com is this all they are good for or are these the only machines that have resale value when they get burnt so bad :dizzy:


I cant imagine how it can have any value beyond scrap metal. Maybe the attachment would still have some value.


Yellowdog mentioned that they fill up with debris easily. I guess that is what happens when you don't keep the machine clean.

CAT powered
08-25-2008, 01:05 PM
The arms have got to be worth something as long as they aren't bent or melted at all and the head has got to be worth something as well.

CarterKraft
08-25-2008, 03:11 PM
sadly allot of these machines are sold without the proper guarding to do that kind of work. the turbo and exhaust shields are mandatory for brush work.


Also if you let them accumulate material on or around the engine... well you know what happens next.

Gravel Rat
08-25-2008, 03:35 PM
Once she is southern fried Cat its not much more than scrap. Why chance it the heat from the fire can distort or weaken parts on the machine.

bobcat_ron
08-25-2008, 03:40 PM
Those were the first C models that were sold with out the brush packages.

ccstrebe
08-25-2008, 04:18 PM
What would have caused it to catch fire?

bobcat_ron
08-25-2008, 04:24 PM
The skid steers look like brush fires, the 262B looks more like it started a fire from the mulcher and the 272C started in the machine itself.

That website rocks, there's even a 236B2 that flipped off a trailer, the cab looks like hell, but it would be a steal!

AMCAT
08-25-2008, 05:03 PM
If a guy was a fixer upper then that site does rock but you can add up to an expensive machine very quick from what i have learned :confused:

KCfireman
08-25-2008, 05:09 PM
I have seen a number of burnt CAT machines on Salvagesale .com is this all they are good for or are these the only machines that have resale value when they get burnt so bad :dizzy:that picture definetly looks like they were trying to maybe cut a fire line in the wake of a field/brush fire but maybe they did it too late and the fire jumped the line and got ahold of the machine.

Dirt Digger2
08-25-2008, 05:50 PM
any structural member of that machine is scrap after it is exposed to that heat...the steel originally is designed to support the weights caused by working, when it is heated the molecule structure changes and its no good unless it is properly treated again

Digdeep
08-25-2008, 06:57 PM
Fire seems to be the biggest hazard for guys brush cutting up here in Wisconsin. I know that Bobcat now offers a brush cutting kit and ASV has for some time and now they offer a forestry machine complete with hinged skid plates and reversible fan. I was not aware that CAT offered a kit other than the velcro closures that yellowDog posted awhile ago. He said they were beat up pretty bad after awhile too.

YellowDogSVC
08-25-2008, 06:58 PM
I cant imagine how it can have any value beyond scrap metal. Maybe the attachment would still have some value.


Yellowdog mentioned that they fill up with debris easily. I guess that is what happens when you don't keep the machine clean.

Can't be sure but that looks like Texas in the background.
Just heard about a competitor's supertrack that just burned up here. It's a rebadged and upgraded B series CAT machine.

YellowDogSVC
08-25-2008, 07:02 PM
sadly allot of these machines are sold without the proper guarding to do that kind of work. the turbo and exhaust shields are mandatory for brush work.


Also if you let them accumulate material on or around the engine... well you know what happens next.

I know plenty were sold before the guards were built. Since CAT had a mulcher for the machine before it went into production, I think CAT shares some of the responsibility though good housekeeping is the only way to minimize the chances of burning a machine up in the woods. Still, though there are probably more CAT's grinding, I see a lot more C series machines burned than I do Bobcat's where the air is blown out of the machine. I can't help but think the CAT cooling system, while great for keeping the motor and hydro temps down, has some role in pulling in too much debris.

YellowDogSVC
08-25-2008, 07:03 PM
Fire seems to be the biggest hazard for guys brush cutting up here in Wisconsin. I know that Bobcat now offers a brush cutting kit and ASV has for some time and now they offer a forestry machine complete with hinged skid plates and reversible fan. I was not aware that CAT offered a kit other than the velcro closures that yellowDog posted awhile ago. He said they were beat up pretty bad after awhile too.

CAT's new guards that were posted by Carterkraft awhile back are much better than the velcro screens that I had though they still let debris in. You have to admit that CAT did spend some time figuring out the guards but I still think that there should be a fan that exhausts material from engine compartment vs. pulling it in.

RockSet N' Grade
08-25-2008, 10:14 PM
YellowDog......what kind of extinguishers do you carry on board? I carry two on my track hoe, one mounted on my trailer, one in my skid, one in my tractor....and of course the DOT one in my truck.......feel like it is overkill, until that one time when I may need 'em.

kreft
08-25-2008, 10:20 PM
It's a sad day to all cat fans.

ksss
08-25-2008, 10:29 PM
It's a sad day to all cat fans.


I say its a good start.:laugh:

Junior M
08-25-2008, 10:37 PM
now if we could start a trust fund and send ksss up there to rons place and have him sneak into rons shop and cross a few wires and boom! gone up in flames!! jk!! :laugh::clapping::dancing::rolleyes::laugh::laugh::laugh:


(is that better? now does everybody know i am making a smarta$$ comment?) :laugh::laugh:

kreft
08-25-2008, 10:39 PM
I say its a good start.:laugh:

:laugh::laugh:

kreft
08-25-2008, 10:41 PM
now if we could start a trust fund and send ksss up there to rons place and have him sneak into rons shop and cross a few wires and boom! gone up in flames!! jk!! :laugh::clapping::dancing::rolleyes::laugh::laugh::laugh:


(is that better? now does everybody know i am making a smarta$$ comment?) :laugh::laugh:

But what wires should he cross JLM?:laugh:

Junior M
08-26-2008, 08:02 AM
:confused::confused:Hmmmmmmmmmm Idk yet.. Ksss is kinda smart:rolleyes:,I am not to sure tho that's what his mom told me when i called to see what bus he was riding the other day, but maybe we should wait until its outside i would feel bad if we burnt down his shop:cry: or where ever he keeps his toy.. :laugh::laugh:



(we probably shouldnt talk about this on here Ron will find out!!:laugh:)

CarterKraft
08-26-2008, 12:25 PM
I know plenty were sold before the guards were built. Since CAT had a mulcher for the machine before it went into production, I think CAT shares some of the responsibility though good housekeeping is the only way to minimize the chances of burning a machine up in the woods. Still, though there are probably more CAT's grinding, I see a lot more C series machines burned than I do Bobcat's where the air is blown out of the machine. I can't help but think the CAT cooling system, while great for keeping the motor and hydro temps down, has some role in pulling in too much debris.


That is not actually true. The Exhaust guards were available on the B series machines and we installed a ton of them. This was long before CAT had a head or the C-series had even been seen. When the C-series came out these same turbo/manifold guards were available but were not being installed, mostly the salesmans fault I think.

A un covered manifold at 1300*F will burn brush... on any engine or skid.

YellowDogSVC
08-26-2008, 09:32 PM
YellowDog......what kind of extinguishers do you carry on board? I carry two on my track hoe, one mounted on my trailer, one in my skid, one in my tractor....and of course the DOT one in my truck.......feel like it is overkill, until that one time when I may need 'em.

When I had the CAT I carried 3. 1 in back door, two in the cab. I had two of the new "tundras" in the cab and one ABC big bottle mounted in the back door (quite a squeeze).

In the Bobcats, I carry 1 ABC mounted to the right, rear of operator in the cab.

YellowDogSVC
08-26-2008, 09:34 PM
That is not actually true. The Exhaust guards were available on the B series machines and we installed a ton of them. This was long before CAT had a head or the C-series had even been seen. When the C-series came out these same turbo/manifold guards were available but were not being installed, mostly the salesmans fault I think.

A un covered manifold at 1300*F will burn brush... on any engine or skid.

I retract my statement, however, I know operators who purchased C series machines and were not told of the upgrade/guards though I know there were some for the B models. I think when a unit/mulcher combo is sold, any guards that are necessary should be included in the sale even if it raises the cost. From a safety standpoint, don't you think that should be policy? If the turbo guard is that important, which I think it is, it should be standard equipment on any mulcher/machine combo or any machine/shear combo sold.

The sales guy is our point of contact with the manufacturer and dealer and it is part of their job, in my humble opinion, to make sure the customer gets what he needs to be safe in the woods. I was blessed with a good CAT salesman who made sure I had what I needed. It's still a crying shame that the A/C system had issues.. I miss my seat something terrible!

bobcat_ron
08-26-2008, 09:43 PM
I miss my seat something terrible!


And I hope your Bobcat gives you a bad case of 'roids!!! :laugh:

You have angered the God of Cat!

cddva
08-26-2008, 09:49 PM
Does the standard equipment insurance policy cover a fire of this nature? I would think if alot of mulching machines are going up in smoke it won't be long before the rates follow. Is it a special policy to cover mulching?

ccstrebe
08-26-2008, 10:42 PM
And I hope your Bobcat gives you a bad case of 'roids!!! :laugh:

You have angered the God of Cat!

Sounds like someone is having buyers remorse.

bobcat_ron
08-26-2008, 10:45 PM
Sounds like someone is having buyers remorse.

No one can touch Cat's seats, air ride and a real suspension in the B series, Bobcat's is like 3 inches, and anyone heavier than 275 pounds will make them bottom out. My seat hasn't even bottomed out, and my ass is happy, unless it was baked beans night the day before. http://deephousepage.com/smilies/stupid.gif

ccstrebe
08-26-2008, 10:59 PM
Sounds like someone is having buyers remorse.


I have noticed many small hints of remorse in Yellowdogs posts lately. Me thinks he should have stuck it out until he got his problems solved, even if he had to do it himself.

Did the baby get thrown out with the bath water?

bobcat_ron
08-26-2008, 11:05 PM
I have noticed many small hints of remorse in Yellowdogs posts lately. Me thinks he should have stuck it out until he got his problems solved, even if he had to do it himself.

Did the baby get thrown out with the bath water?

I thinks he's been seeing a therapist, how can you go from a cab that has a good amount of air flow (pressurization issues aside) easy entry and exit, massive amounts of side visibility and real pilot controls to a machine with a wasted space cab, very little suspension in the seat and rowing oars?

I went the opposite way.

YellowDogSVC
08-27-2008, 12:46 AM
I have noticed many small hints of remorse in Yellowdogs posts lately. Me thinks he should have stuck it out until he got his problems solved, even if he had to do it himself.

Did the baby get thrown out with the bath water?

No, no remorse here. I love my modded s330. It's much better than my CAT in many areas except seat and hydro torque but overall the machine makes me much happier, has ice cold air, and hasn't needed the maintenance.

I'm not here to bash a brand. There are plenty of things I liked about CAT but the people involved saw what my issues were. I couldn't stick it out any longer. They weren't going to let me keep a loaner indefinitely and since my machine wouldn't keep the air going, it was virtually useless for mowing especially with a door. It got dang hot in that cab. CAT admitted to me that my issue would be resolved but it would take time. Time I didn't have. In retrospect, I was without a machine for 5 weeks but that is hindsight. If I had stuck it out for 5 weeks..I dunno. Maybe they would have figured it out and I would still be in a CAT but maybe not. Like I have said before, if I had been given another 272c that didn't have the issues from the beginning, I'd probably be in a CAT. I'm sure the sales, service, and product support people reevaluated how they market and support these machines after they dealt with me. But like I said, I'm not here to bash cat. There were some true faults but Bobcat has plenty as I am sure the other brands do. Cat just had a great seat, good hydro power, adequate push force and lift, and was supposed to have a sealed and pressurized cab. I'm sure many do but mine wasn't even close and unfortunately it is a necessary tool of the trade here in S. Central Texas. I have also pointed out that not all machines were as poorly sealed as mine. Some guys have had no issues while others have contacted me with similar stories so maybe it was a production issue or bad components somewhere down the line. Bottom line, Bobcat has issues and Cat has issues but with all things being equal, I have many more Bobcat attachments, the price was more competitive, and the machines are nearly identical in performance but the Bobcat suspension seat sucks and and the air, while very cold, only keeps my butt cool!

:hammerhead:

YellowDogSVC
08-27-2008, 12:51 AM
I thinks he's been seeing a therapist, how can you go from a cab that has a good amount of air flow (pressurization issues aside) easy entry and exit, massive amounts of side visibility and real pilot controls to a machine with a wasted space cab, very little suspension in the seat and rowing oars?

I went the opposite way.

Luckily I got the hand controls.. I can't do the sticks again. The cab is easier to get in and out than the CAT for me at least but the suspension seat doesn't move much. Right now, that's my only complaint. I just hit 42 hours (it's been raining) and no issues other than the seat and a poor seal at the front door. Just like on the CAt, I can add some weatherstrip for the door. I think I need a new seat though. It overadjusts up but if you try to lower the setting, the handle unscrews and nothing happens. :confused: I saw a gel cushion the other day. Maybe that will solve everything? :weightlifter: I could add a whoopee under it for a true air ride! :laugh:

YellowDogSVC
08-27-2008, 12:52 AM
And I hope your Bobcat gives you a bad case of 'roids!!! :laugh:

You have angered the God of Cat!

Hey, I still have a Cat mulcher and still recommend them. That god better be nice to me. Fecon makes the Bobcat mulcher and I could go the other way!!!

bobcat_ron
08-27-2008, 10:48 AM
Luckily I got the hand controls.. I can't do the sticks again. The cab is easier to get in and out than the CAT for me at least but the suspension seat doesn't move much. Right now, that's my only complaint. I just hit 42 hours (it's been raining) and no issues other than the seat and a poor seal at the front door. Just like on the CAt, I can add some weatherstrip for the door. I think I need a new seat though. It overadjusts up but if you try to lower the setting, the handle unscrews and nothing happens. :confused: I saw a gel cushion the other day. Maybe that will solve everything? :weightlifter: I could add a whoopee under it for a true air ride! :laugh:

Is it the AHC or the actual pilots that have a ticking time bomb sound?

YellowDogSVC
08-27-2008, 04:49 PM
Is it the AHC or the actual pilots that have a ticking time bomb sound?

I'm not sure what you are referring to. I had the AHC in an s250 but hated them and don't remember any ticking. I had pilots in a 268b I tried out but don't remember any ticking either. My SJC in the Bobcat and the joysticks in the CAT were quiet. My Bobcat squeaks if that helps.. :laugh:

bobcat_ron
08-27-2008, 09:19 PM
I'm not sure what you are referring to. I had the AHC in an s250 but hated them and don't remember any ticking. I had pilots in a 268b I tried out but don't remember any ticking either. My SJC in the Bobcat and the joysticks in the CAT were quiet. My Bobcat squeaks if that helps.. :laugh:



Yuppers, you got the ticking time bomb (SJC) pilot controls, good luck after 200 hours, that when they start giving out, my dealership has this problem, or I should say HAD, they no longer bring machines in with SJC unless the owner will buy the extra warranty.

AMCAT
08-27-2008, 09:42 PM
Are the pilot controls on CAT also known to cause problems ??????

bobcat_ron
08-27-2008, 10:23 PM
Are the pilot controls on CAT also known to cause problems ??????

Nope, everyone except Boobrap and Volvo uses Rexroth, the most reliable pilot control system in the world, and I mean everyone.

Volvo makes their own, they are really smooth, but Bobcat insists on doing their's in-house. Bad, bad Bobcat.

Some dude here bought a new T190 with the SJC and his machine has spent more hours in the shop than on the job working, and to quote his famous words that worked great for me, "I can budget for track repair and maintenance, but I can't budget for sh*t that don't work".

CarterKraft
08-28-2008, 12:39 AM
For all the B-Series owners if you have a hesitation when turning or changing directions there is a update that will correct that issue.

And of course you guys know that the C-series doesn't really have "pilot controls" right.

YellowDogSVC
08-28-2008, 10:05 AM
I've heard that the same company makes both the C series Cat controls and the Bobcat controls. Can anyone confirm this?
Ron, it sounds more and more like you had a lemon?? I just didn't have many issues with my large frame Bobcat loaders other than cab and dust issues which, so far with this new one, I have somewhat alleviated. Just like I had problems with my CAT c series, others haven't. My Ford 6.0 sucks too but others love them. Ditto for my Vermeer chipper. No problems so far but others hate them.. I think each machine has the potential for issues. I just can't understand why you are angry all the time. Can't you and Bobcat just get along? :)

bobcat_ron
08-28-2008, 11:49 AM
I've heard that the same company makes both the C series Cat controls and the Bobcat controls. Can anyone confirm this?
Ron, it sounds more and more like you had a lemon?? I just didn't have many issues with my large frame Bobcat loaders other than cab and dust issues which, so far with this new one, I have somewhat alleviated. Just like I had problems with my CAT c series, others haven't. My Ford 6.0 sucks too but others love them. Ditto for my Vermeer chipper. No problems so far but others hate them.. I think each machine has the potential for issues. I just can't understand why you are angry all the time. Can't you and Bobcat just get along? :)

Even yesterday morning while driving to work, I spotted my favourite service mechanic making a crucial repair to a T190 wide track right in the worst possible situation, early in the morning, raining, and in the mud. Looks like the hammer the dude was using broke something under the cab, what a mess, it took the mechanic 2 hours to fix.

I laughed as I drove by! http://deephousepage.com/smilies/banana.gif

My machine wasn't a lemon, like I always stated before, I had the same issues with the previous 753 I owned, I mean exact same problems, and there are other ex-Bobcat owners that can tell me the same. Even my Dad's old 943 had the same hydraulic issues that I had, and he never ran a hammer on it.
It's not just a lemon, it's the machine and the quality of the machine. 10 years ago Bobcat was the best, but they are the worst now.

CarterKraft
08-29-2008, 12:00 AM
I've heard that the same company makes both the C series Cat controls and the Bobcat controls. Can anyone confirm this?
Ron, it sounds more and more like you had a lemon?? I just didn't have many issues with my large frame Bobcat loaders other than cab and dust issues which, so far with this new one, I have somewhat alleviated. Just like I had problems with my CAT c series, others haven't. My Ford 6.0 sucks too but others love them. Ditto for my Vermeer chipper. No problems so far but others hate them.. I think each machine has the potential for issues. I just can't understand why you are angry all the time. Can't you and Bobcat just get along? :)

I am trying to think on this one, I don't think that the controls are made by the same but I will have to look a little further. Does anyone know who makes the Bobcat controls?

Also on another note if you would have asked about the 6.0 I could have told you not to get that one :nono::)

YellowDogSVC
08-29-2008, 12:26 AM
I am trying to think on this one, I don't think that the controls are made by the same but I will have to look a little further. Does anyone know who makes the Bobcat controls?

Also on another note if you would have asked about the 6.0 I could have told you not to get that one :nono::)

Wish someone had told me that back in '05!!

CarterKraft
08-29-2008, 06:06 PM
I could have told you in 03'... doesn't help you allot now though huh.

After you making the comment that Bobcat and CAT use the same joystick I couldn't sleep very well and frankly the world just hasn't been right since. So I did some scouring and found the info I needed.

http://www.cat.com/cda/components/fullArticle?m=82100&x=7&id=245265

And after looking at them in the parts listings, this is the same basic joystick as the B series Telehandlers, K-series dozers and D series track loaders.

Not sure if anyone actually cared though, but I sure did.

YellowDogSVC
08-29-2008, 06:24 PM
The joysticks don't look the same but I heard that the same supplier makes both the Bobcat and CAT control systems (joystick controls).
I hope it didn't cause too much sleep. How about this one. I use a CAT mower on a Bobcat and vice versa. Had the bobcat service guy out to troubleshoot a short today and he saw some of my CAT stuff and raised an eyebrow!
I think we all just need to get along. I have CAT teeth, CAT mower and CAT hats and some cool CAT "stuff" but my main machine is a BobCAT.
It would be funny if CAT and Bobcat had the same control system...just wired differently.

CarterKraft
08-29-2008, 06:42 PM
That was all in fun you know, just couldn't resist.

However if Bobcat does use that joystick they buy it from CAT (weird) as that link was to CAT's proprietary products, designed and manufactured in house.

As far as what brand of machine you run, you do what you need to do keep food on your table, end of story, this ain't personal this is business.

bobcat_ron
08-29-2008, 06:54 PM
The joysticks don't look the same but I heard that the same supplier makes both the Bobcat and CAT control systems (joystick controls).
I hope it didn't cause too much sleep. How about this one. I use a CAT mower on a Bobcat and vice versa. Had the bobcat service guy out to troubleshoot a short today and he saw some of my CAT stuff and raised an eyebrow!
I think we all just need to get along. I have CAT teeth, CAT mower and CAT hats and some cool CAT "stuff" but my main machine is a BobCAT.
It would be funny if CAT and Bobcat had the same control system...just wired differently.


Kinda same here, but opposite, Bobcat grapple and combo buckets, forks and dumping hopper, Cat skid steer.

Tigerotor77W
08-30-2008, 09:19 PM
However if Bobcat does use that joystick they buy it from CAT (weird) as that link was to CAT's proprietary products, designed and manufactured in house.

I'm now curious, too, as the Deere EH controls look identical to Cat's C-series controls... what am I missing?

bobcat_ron
08-30-2008, 09:28 PM
I'm now curious, too, as the Deere EH controls look identical to Cat's C-series controls... what am I missing?

They are the same pilots. Same company. If Boobcrap would get off their cheap asses and use those same pilots, they would totally redeem themselves, not to me, but otheres.

Junior M
08-30-2008, 09:33 PM
They are the same pilots. Same company. If Boobcrap would get off their cheap asses and use those same pilots, they would totally redeem themselves, not to me, but otheres.
I would buy pilots if they would produce better ones like you said ron..

dozerman21
08-30-2008, 09:40 PM
I'm now curious, too, as the Deere EH controls look identical to Cat's C-series controls... what am I missing?

Does anyone have any experiences with Deere's new E/H controls? Are they ISO only or can you get them in H- Pattern?

bobcat_ron
08-30-2008, 09:43 PM
Does anyone have any experiences with Deere's new E/H controls? Are they ISO only or can you get them in H- Pattern?


Last time I checked Deere did not have the ISO/SAE switch, but Cat does have it.

Deere is too damn stubborn to admit that there is another "entity" that is a little more superior to them that uses another type of pattern. :laugh:

dozerman21
08-30-2008, 09:46 PM
Last time I checked Deere did not have the ISO/SAE switch, but Cat does have it.

Deere is too damn stubborn to admit that there is another "entity" that is a little more superior to them that uses another type of pattern. :laugh:

The switch is nice, I will admit. It's a nice feature especially if several guys are running the same machine. H-Pattern only for me though. I've got too much time on those to try/ want to learn anything else. I feel like a jackass everytime I run ISO controls on a machine, especially a wheeled skid.:dizzy:

ksss
08-30-2008, 10:19 PM
I cant imagine that Deere would have E/H and not a pattern changer. That is the big advantage of E/H you can have a pattern changer quite easily. Maybe JD Skid steer will chip in.

CAT powered
08-31-2008, 12:16 AM
Excuse the idiot question, but I don't run a ton of skids.

What would ISO controls be and what would E/H controls be?

I've run some Deeres, Bobcats, and CATs. The Deere and CAT had the same control setup and the Bobcrap had Bobcrap hand/foot controls.

Junior M
08-31-2008, 10:16 AM
I am not sure about the other controls but the H controls are the one that come standard on case.. you push the joysticks forward and you move forward pull them back wards you go backwards, the left joy stick controls is pushed to the left and right to move the boom up and down and the right stick for the bucket..left and curl down and push to the right and the bucket came up.. they are a little challenging to use at first because you try to do one thing at once and the stick is a little to far to the left or right and you start moving... but I like the joysticks alot better than bobcat foot and hand controls.. bobcats controls are hard to grade with..

ccstrebe
08-31-2008, 10:43 AM
The switch is nice, I will admit. It's a nice feature especially if several guys are running the same machine. H-Pattern only for me though. I've got too much time on those to try/ want to learn anything else. I feel like a jackass everytime I run ISO controls on a machine, especially a wheeled skid.:dizzy:

Exact same thing with me. If Cat didn't have the H-pattern capabilities it would have been a deal breaker.

For those that don't know, the Series 3 Cases have the capability to go ISO pattern but there is no switch, you have to order it H-pattern or ISO.

bobcat_ron
08-31-2008, 12:38 PM
Excuse the idiot question, but I don't run a ton of skids.

What would ISO controls be and what would E/H controls be?

I've run some Deeres, Bobcats, and CATs. The Deere and CAT had the same control setup and the Bobcrap had Bobcrap hand/foot controls.



ISO (International Organization for Standardization ) and SAE (Standard American Equipment) are like the Deere and Cat controls, then the skids controls are referred to as "H" (Case) or "S" (Cat) patterns.

The earlier "H" patterns could not be moved like a joystick in an "S" pattern, only like an "H", but the pilot controls that came out on the Takeuchi's in the early 90's and later on the Cat's in the late 90's, could be moved in an "S" pattern, they were basically valves controlling valves, but the Case's were levers with levers attached to them controlling valves.

Now that most companies have caught up, they offer the pilots controls that are Electric over Hydraulic (E/H) (electrics controlling the valves) and the switch to go from ISO/SAE or "H"/"S" is a simple switch.
The hydraulic over hydraulic (H/H) pilots needed a valve to switch over, and most companies (like Case) would not offer that as space and plumbing for that valve were tight. But now that Case, Deere and Cat have the E/H controls, a switch is all that's needed.

ksss
08-31-2008, 05:16 PM
ISO (International Organization for Standardization ) and SAE (Standard American Equipment) are like the Deere and Cat controls, then the skids controls are referred to as "H" (Case) or "S" (Cat) patterns.

The earlier "H" patterns could not be moved like a joystick in an "S" pattern, only like an "H", but the pilot controls that came out on the Takeuchi's in the early 90's and later on the Cat's in the late 90's, could be moved in an "S" pattern, they were basically valves controlling valves, but the Case's were levers with levers attached to them controlling valves.

Now that most companies have caught up, they offer the pilots controls that are Electric over Hydraulic (E/H) (electrics controlling the valves) and the switch to go from ISO/SAE or "H"/"S" is a simple switch.
The hydraulic over hydraulic (H/H) pilots needed a valve to switch over, and most companies (like Case) would not offer that as space and plumbing for that valve were tight. But now that Case, Deere and Cat have the E/H controls, a switch is all that's needed.



Not really.

ISO pattern in skid steers is the pattern first started by TK as Ron said and later by CAT, I am with you there.

SAE pattern is the CASE H pattern which has been around for decades.

True Pilot controls can only be switched by using a kit provided by the OEM. CAT offered/offers this on the B series machines and the BII machines and prior. CASE/NH also offer this kit, as well as TK. Only Komatsu has a pattern changer in a pilot operated machine. This however makes all flows and pressures the same. Great convenience but terrible performance. That is why everyone else has opted for the kit to change the controls instead of the pattern changer like you find on a mini ex.

BC, CAT and Deere offer the E/H. Pilot controls and E/H are not the same thing. E/H utilizes an electric signal generated from the movement of the joystick into valving which turns the signal into work. The pilot system, the user actuates the pilot valve directly. The advantage with E/H is you can alter the signal to generate different results like CAT does with its AMICS or BC does with its system. You can speed it up, slow it down, adjust sensitivity, create a creeping mode and easily change patterns like BC does with a flip of the switch in their machines. Thats why it surprises me that Deere would not have a pattern changer in their machines. The issue of E/H which is really in its infancy in skid steers and backhoes, is getting a consistant signal and a duplicatable result each time you move the controls. I don't know about Deeres machine cause I have not run it. However, CAT and BC don't have this figured out yet. As the technology advances these systems will get better. The pilots especially the latest generation don't have the fickle issues of E/H but are not as adaptable either.

The ease of manufacturing with E/H is also much easier. The cabs can be built in pods, assembled and then set on the chassis with only plugging in the hand controls. Pilots do not allow for that type of assembly.

iron peddler
08-31-2008, 07:09 PM
hold on a second the earth may stop it's rotation.....ksss answered the question the exact way i was going to, except he did it better...kudos to him and that was a great answer.....but for my sanity, i have lots of guys that like our EH H pattern better than the current power tan offer.:drinkup:

ksss
08-31-2008, 07:21 PM
.....but for my sanity, i have lots of guys that like our EH H pattern better than the current power tan offer.:drinkup:


Peddler say it aint so........I think you need more sophisticated customers. Perhaps I could come down for a customer clinic and teach your customers what they need to be looking for..LOL.:laugh:

Stick Pro
08-31-2008, 07:31 PM
For all the B-Series owners if you have a hesitation when turning or changing directions there is a update that will correct that issue.

And of course you guys know that the C-series doesn't really have "pilot controls" right.

I have not herd of this update can u fill me in some i have this exact problem

ksss
08-31-2008, 07:35 PM
I have not herd of this update can u fill me in some i have this exact problem


CASE has an update to fix that and other issues with the CAT machines.:cool2:

iron peddler
08-31-2008, 10:10 PM
CASE has an update to fix that and other issues with the CAT machines.:cool2:

ZING!!!!! :clapping: operation feel and styles are different for every make out there, the toughest variable to adjust and fix is the owner/operator

CarterKraft
09-01-2008, 11:58 PM
Not sure what the yahoos are making jokes about but I will take the high road (yeh right) and comment on your question.

If you have a B-series machine that when making abrupt directional or steering changes stalls and doesn't move then you should contact your dealer for service of the pilot control system.