PDA

View Full Version : Pool area lighting


tonyGub
08-26-2008, 07:49 PM
Need some ideas. I have a client who does not want path lights around the pool. there is a large mature tree but it is about 65' from the pool patio. Any ideas.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
08-26-2008, 08:20 PM
Wow, talk about a clean slate...

It is so clean that there is nothing to recommend! Perhaps start with a nice landscape plan, a gazebo, outdoor kitchen, privacy screen, chiminea, some garden beds, heck even some shrubbery?? Anything to break up that prairie of a yard.

Right now Im afraid there is nothing to light other then perhaps the extreme perimeter of the property, at least not to my eye.

Not very helpful I know. Makes me glad I live in "God's Country"!

tonyGub
08-26-2008, 08:25 PM
The original landscape plan had trees and flowering plants around the entire pool but the homeowner decided that their children would destroy it all so it was nixed. There is going to be an outdoor kitchen to the right of the pool (you cant see it in the picture) but it is not in yet.

Chris J
08-26-2008, 09:42 PM
Maybe some Hunza "puck lights" around the outside edge of the deck to cast light across the surface toward the pool. Other than that, I don't see what you can do (at least with the pool area).

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
08-26-2008, 11:07 PM
The Hunza "Path Light - PL1-4" might work in that application depending on the patio materials. If those are dry laid stones then you might be able to core them to accomodate the fixture without cracking them. If that is patterned concrete or any other type of reinforced, wet laid surface then you are not going to be able to install them at this point.

http://www.hunza.co.nz/productsContemporary/productContPathLite.html

The Hunza product is very low profile, but still might pose a trip hazzard if kids are running around the pool deck all day.

This is a tough one... not much to work with there.

TXNSLighting
08-26-2008, 11:17 PM
my goodness, not much there to work with. Im with Chris and James, those are prob your only options.

Mark B
08-26-2008, 11:25 PM
How about some 120volt colored flood lights up in the trees??? Or some fiber placed in the motor joints if they are sanded in. Then they could have a sparkling walkway. Just follow the lights to the pool.

irrig8r
08-27-2008, 01:37 AM
How about some wooden or even welded steel arches over the path at appropriate distances for a combination of some ornamental vines and to downlight from? Could be rounded or squared on top as best fits the client's tastes.

irrig8r
08-27-2008, 01:38 AM
How about some 120volt colored flood lights up in the trees??? Or some fiber placed in the motor joints if they are sanded in. Then they could have a sparkling walkway. Just follow the lights to the pool.

That walkway doesn't look motorized to me...

TPnTX
08-27-2008, 08:49 AM
I dont know guys, while youre right there is nothing to hit up by the pool(Im thinking disco light might work) there are trees in the background. If that is a view from the house those trees would look nice with some light as a backdrop. Couple that with a dark lense on the pool light and youre good to go.

TXNSLighting
08-27-2008, 09:54 AM
That pool really needs something for visual interest. You can get some lights on the future Outdoor kitchen but its got to have more...

sprinklerchris
08-27-2008, 09:59 AM
Need some ideas. I have a client who does not want path lights around the pool. there is a large mature tree but it is about 65' from the pool patio. Any ideas.

Would they object to a low-level beacon fixture? http://www.vistapro.com/Product.aspx?ProdID=237&CatID=1&typeID=6

NightScenes
08-27-2008, 10:22 AM
I would say to mount a Bliss Light in that tall tree and aim it at the pool. This will give the area a sparkle.:laugh:

JoeyD
08-27-2008, 04:56 PM
Just remember no lights within 5ft!!

.

Chris J
08-27-2008, 05:07 PM
Just remember no lights within 5ft!!

.

That includes the wire also.

JoeyD
08-27-2008, 05:09 PM
That includes the wire also.

good point..I never thought of that!

Chris J
08-27-2008, 06:11 PM
I would say to mount a Bliss Light in that tall tree and aim it at the pool. This will give the area a sparkle.:laugh:

Don't know if he knows your joking around Paul, but have you ever looked into one of the Bliss lights at night (or during the day for that matter)? That sucker will vaporize your retinas! I'd be very careful about the placement of such light. Those lasers are super strong, and you wouldn't want any portion of the viewing angle to be in the area of that light's projected path.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
08-27-2008, 06:34 PM
Just remember no lights within 5ft!!

.

Umm, I am pretty sure you mean to say 10 feet (3 meters) I just got back from a meeting today in which we were discussing this very topic. the CEC (virtually the same as the NEC) pretty clearly states the distance as 10 feet.

The sticking point on the 5 foot rule is that only if the circuit is Class II LV (under 75VA) can it be between 5 and 10 feet from the edge of the pool. If the circuit is a CLass I LV then it must be 10 feet or beyond. Or at least that is how I read the darned thing.

We are in the process of applying for an exception here to reduce that distance to 1.5 meters (5 feet) for Class I LV circuits.

John Higo will have much more detailed info on this then I.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
08-27-2008, 06:47 PM
Here is more on this topic to confuse you....:dizzy:

sparrott411-18-2004, 04:49 PM
I understand that a pool and spa rated transfomer is required to supply underwater fixtures and any fixtures that are between 5 and 10 ft. from a pool, spa or water feature.

According to the EC&M site, low voltage fixtures can be mounted closer than 5 ft. from the water. He states:

"Nevertheless, we do see these lights used closer to swimming pools. These lights aren't installed under the provisions of Art. 411. This type of lighting operates on Class 2 power-limited circuits evaluated for wet-contact applications. Therefore, you install this type of lighting using listed Class 2 power supplies that typically don't exceed 75VA."

Can anyone provide more clarity on this? If a contractor wants to install a fixture closer than 5 ft. to the water, what codes and guidelines does he follow?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

sparrott401-13-2005, 04:23 PM
No responses? I'll try again. This is an important issue and I'm baffled by the NEC code as it relates to low voltage lighting near water.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

wirenut198001-13-2005, 05:27 PM
Could you please post a link to the EC&M site, so we can read what you are referring to? I am not sure how Article 411 - Lighting Systems Operating at 30 Volts or Less - comes into play at all. I was thinking Article 680 when talking swimming pools...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

sparrott401-14-2005, 10:58 AM
Here's the link:

http://ecmweb.com/mag/electric_code_rules_lowvoltage/index.html

I also found a Q & A from Mike on this issue, this was a few years back, any further clarification?

Q. An electrical inspector just informed me that you can't install low-voltage lighting fixtures within 10 ft of the edge of a pool or spa, even though the 110V power supply (transformer) is located 50 ft from the water's edge. Does the NEC allow low-voltage lighting closer than 10 ft from the water if the circuit for the transformer is GFCI-protected? I understand Sec. 680-6(b)(a) allows 120V lighting fixtures to be located just over 5 ft from the water's edge and GFCI protection is not required. Please clarify.

A. Sec. 411-4 specifies that you shall not install low-voltage lighting systems (operating at 30V or less) within 10 ft of pools, spas, fountains, or similar locations. There is no exception to this rule (Fig. 2). Placing the primary circuit conductors (120V) on a GFCI protection device does not protect against an electric shock on the secondary, because the primary GFCI would not sense a fault on the low-voltage secondary.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

wirenut198001-14-2005, 12:53 PM
Ok, I see 411.4 now, my bad. So it looks like it defers to Article 680, which it says in 680.22(B))(4) that you can locate GFCI protected light fixtures, lighting outlets, and ceiling suspended fans "installed in the area extending between 1.5 m (5 ft) and 3.0 m (10 ft) horizontally from the inside walls of a pool shall be protected by a greound fault circuit interrupter unless installed not less than 1.5 m (5 ft) above the maximum water level and rigidly attached to the structure adjacent to or enclosing the pool."

So IMO, this allows to be installed closer than 10 feet, which is an exception to 411.4.

Now the EC&M article says that with circuits that we see closer than 5 feet, are not of the installation described in NEC Article 680. The circuits are installed as described in NEC Article 725 Class 2 wiring methods. But I can't find any reference to pools in Article 725. :confused: I guess my question is what are the main differences in the wiring methods and how power is delivered between those described in 680 and those in Class 2 and 3 circuits as described in Article 725?

Edit: And is it legal to run class 2 or 3 circuits to lights closer than 5 feet to pools? What type of circuits are pool lights powered from?

[ January 14, 2005, 12:55 PM: Message edited by: wirenut1980 ]

Chris J
08-27-2008, 06:57 PM
Wrong again amigo! The rule is 5', period! Canadian codes might be different in this aspect, but for us the limit is 5'. We have gone through this before, over and over again. If we need to bring in the expert on NEC, Nate Mullen, then I'm sure he will oblige.

JoeyD
08-28-2008, 11:01 AM
This is why I always say the code is left up to interpetation!!! I always encourage customers before doing any lighting in or around water to get with the inspector (if there is one) to see what it is they will require to sign off on the project.

Here is what the NEC says.

Article 680.10 Underground Wireing Location.

Underground wiring shall not be permitted under the pool or within the area extending 1.5m (5ft) horizontally from the inside wall of the pool unless this wiring is neccesary to supply pool equipment permitted by this article..........................

If you cant run wire within 5ft then that means NO LIGHT within 5ft!!

Article 680.22 Area Lighting, Receptacles, and Equipment.

(4) GFCI Protection in Adjacent Areas.
Luminaires (lighting fixtures), lighting outlets, and ceiling-suspended (paddle) fans installed in the area extending between 1.5m (5ft) and 3.0 m (10ft) horizontally from the inside walls of a pool shall be protected by a ground fault circuit interupter unless installed no less than 1.5m (5ft) above the maximum water level and rigidly attached to the structure adjacent to or enclosing the pool.

So obviously the code was written primarily with line voltage in mind. In low voltage we do not have the ability to GFCI protect each fixture we install. We have to rely on the transformer for grounding protection. This is why we have to talk to our inspectors and reason with them. We all know that LV is safe from shock so by explaining that you the installer are going by code and not installing any wire or fixtures within 5ft, your transformer is atleast 10ft from the body of water, it is a pool and spa rated transformer which has additional grounding via a faraday shield in between the primary and secondary winds, and that transformer is plugged into a GFCI receptacle, you have done everything you can do to ensure a safe and protected wiring system. You can also go one step further and explain that you have inline fusing at your point of connection (Hub) for additional secondary protection in case of a short. In all this is safer than a 120v light on a GFCI!!

But the problem is you are still at the mercy of the inspector, his mood, and his interpetation of the code.

So bottom line, No light in or within 5ft of the pool PERIOD! Anything within 5 to 10ft has to be grounded!!!!!

If you want to read more about the Pool and Spa rated transformers you can refer to Article 680.23 (2) of the NEC.

Hope this helps!!