Please Read!!! Please Please Help!!!!!!!!!!!

[mjealey]

I am posting this here and in mechanics and repair. Bare with me and follow along on this one.

I bought a Snapper Pro s150x at the beginning of the season. Same as the Ferris is1500 without the suspension. Best mower I ever owned. 63 hours with absolutely no problems. I was at my dealer about 3 weeks ago and they had another one that they were trying to get rid of. Picked up another one for really cheap. Both of my mowers have 21 HP Kawasakis (FH641V) and a 48" deck.

Problem started about 2 weeks ago. First 4 hours of the mower was doing small yards and was never running for more than 30 minutes. No problems. At exactly 5.4 hours I was mowing a big yard and had been going for a little over an hour when all of a sudden the RPMs started fluctuating a little bit and 30 second later it just shut off on me. Fuel caps not venting at all. Dealer gave me new fuel caps and thought the problem was fixed.

Next time I was mowing it did it again about 30 minutes into it. Sputters for a few minutes then shuts all of a sudden shuts off on me. Called the dealer and he said bring it in to me and they will look at it. Dealer got it to act up said it was a fuel problem ( so they thought). Tried everything and it never fixed it. Put new fuel lines, filter, pick up lined in the tank and it still does it. Put new fuel pump on it and it still did not fix it. Hooked a gravity feed line and tank up straight to the carb and it is fine. Have had it to 3 dealers, been in the shop two weeks and nobody can find out what is wrong. Snapper has even sent people to the dealer from their R&D and they can not find anything wrong with it.

This is very frustrating. Dealer knows that I am not mad and I have not paid a penny throught this whole thing just frustrated. A person even called me from Snapper headquarters today and said the if it is not fixed by Wednesday thy will send me a brand new one.

Keep in mind these are made by Ferris and are the exact same thing. If Iorder parts they come in a box with Ferris on it. Somebody else has had to have problems like this before. PLEASE HELP!!!!

[topsites]

Well I'd start looking for a new mechanic because it sounds like it could be the coil once it heats up it fails, as they usually do. That and get yourself a spark plug tester tool so you can do at least the testing part right when it does that crap, it helps tons if you can narrow it down.

[mjealey]

They have tested the coil and have not found anything wrong with it. What is weird is when it starts doing it and shuts off, if you immediately try crankning it back up it won't fire. If you choke it, it will start right back up and you can go for another 15 minutes before it cuts out again. From my experience if it was a coil it would not redtart until after it cools down. Am I right or not? If you let it sit overnight there will be fuel in the filter. When it finally cuts out the fuel filter is bone dry.

I have even had a guy that works for a SCAG dealership and been there for 15 years and he can't figure it out either. This thing has got me completely puzzled.

[mjealey]

One other thing. When it cuts out and dies the fuel filter is bone dry. It will start right back up as long as you choke it. This makes me believe that it is not the coil. Am I correct about that?

[dishboy]

Sounds like a passage in the carb has crap in it. I would clean out the carb and get a fresh tank of gas.

[mjealey]

They have done that too. Took the carb apart and cleaned it. They did find just a little dirt in it, but not enough to make it shut off. Only had around 6 hours when they cleaned it.

[captn]

Your tank might have a vacuum, but If you have determined thet there is no issue with the tank, filter, and fuel line, I'd look at the carb. If it will start right away after you choke a warm engine....it is always the carb........

Cap

[Big Daddy Choper]

Ya I would try the carb too, I have a Snapper Pro with a 17hp Kawasaki, and it has done the same thing, I cleaned the air filter, and carb, and so far it hasn't done it again.

[mjealey]

We've replaced everything else. The carb is the only thing that they have not replaced. They took it apart and found nothing and says that it is working. They did mention that they were thinking about trying this on Tuesday. I even checked with Kawasaki and Snapper to make sure it is the right carb for the motor and it is.

[captn]

Replace the air filter and fuel line while they're at it. Sounds like this thing could have seen a war in transit.

Cap

[Big Daddy Choper]

MJ when this happened to me I would hold the choke open, and the mower keep running for a little while..try it and see.

[mjealey]

3 dealerships and two weeks you would think they could find something!!! Not to mention R&D guy looking at it and telling the dealers to let them know so they can make a log of it when they find out.

[mjealey]

Now when it starts doing it, I have never tried holding the choke open. I might have the dealer try it and see if it helps it.

[Phil G]

"if it is not fixed by Wednesday thy will send me a brand new one."
Result :) It seems everyone involved has done their best to solve the problem and it's refreshing to see a manufacturer take such a positive decision.
Roll on Wednesday :usflag:



Oh and my thoughts, crap in the tank. (that's not an instruction)




Good luck Phil

[Big Daddy Choper]

MJ Let me know what you find out...Please! in case it keeps being a problem for me. Thanks!

[mjealey]

One other thing that I don't think anyone has done and that is to completely take the tanks off and clean them. By the way the day I bought it I went straight to Exxon and put 93 in it. Have ran throught that and filled it back up with 87.

[mjealey]

I will let you know. Hopefully we will get it worked out the middle of this week. I have been saying that for a week and a half.

[captn]

The good news is that you got some free stuff comin for your troubles......

cap

[Phil G]

"if it is not fixed by Wednesday thy will send me a brand new one."
Result:) It seems everyone involved has done their best to solve the problem and it's refreshing to see a manufacturer take such a positive decision.

Roll on Wednesday:usflag:



Oh and my thoughts, crap in the tank. (that's not an instruction)




Good luck Phil

[mjealey]

I will say this. The dealer has been very apologetic and is working really hard on it. I drive by and I see them riding around and working on it all the time. They have probably spent 40 hrs. on it. It was very surprising that I did get a call from Snapper. I was very impressd by that. I am more frustrated than I am mad. Had some experience with other brands and the would have never done anything like this. Props to Snapper.

[Big Daddy Choper]

Ther wasn't any Ethanol in the 93...was there? That's causing alot of mower problems.

[mjealey]

Honestly, I do think there was ethanol in the fuel.

[Big Daddy Choper]

Better hope not! I know the 89 octane has it at some stations, and it may not be very easy to tell w/o asking.

[mjealey]

I will go check tomorrow and see if there is ethanol in the fuel.

[captn]

I don't know what gas stations you guys use, but the price of oil and money hungry oil companies is causing them to put 10% eth in virtually every gallon of gas you pump.

Since it is better for the environement, some states have eased their regulation to post the plackard, but it's probably in there.

comment: Look online at the company's site. It'll tell you their refining strategies and partners.

Cap

[Richard Martin]

Is there a valve to switch between the 2 fuel tanks? If there is have the dealer hook a fuel line directly from one fuel tank to the fuel filter and see if the problem occurs. From reading your posts you have replaced everything except for the valve if your mower has one.

[Stillwater]

One other thing. When it cuts out and dies the fuel filter is bone dry. It will start right back up as long as you choke it. This makes me believe that it is not the coil. Am I correct about that?

most likely yes you are correct,

my guesses you have a possible weak vacume causeing your fuel pump to be weak and not draw from the tank. get a vac guage

crap in the main jet gets my vote. But I would wait for the new one, and stop looseing your personal labor on this.

[mjealey]

According to them they say that they have done it. At first they suspected the fuel selector valve to be bad. The only time that it supposedly doen's do it is if they hook a gravity fed tank directly to the carb or directly to the fuel pump bypassing everything before the fuel pump. They took the fuel selector valve off and said that it was fine.

[ALC-GregH]

I read all this and from what you describe, the tank it self has something in it blocking the fuel outlet on the tank. Think about it, if the fuel filter is full and you run it for awhile and it shuts off, you say you look at the filter and it's empty, well, the only place it's going to get more fuel is the tank. The carb can't be the problem if the problem is lack of fuel getting TO the carb. Pull the tanks off and flush them good. Look for anything that could block the outlets. Something is restricting the fuel from getting to the carb. Being they replaced pretty much everything BUT the tanks, I'd be pulling them off to inspect.

My friend has a Bobcat 543 loader. 3 cyl diesel. It ran great for a year or more. Now it's having the same problem your talking about. It will run fine for about 1-2 minutes and then die out. We check the fuel primer ball and it's empty. Pump it up and bleed the pump and it starts and runs fine for another 2 minutes. We replaced the demand pump, injector pump, fuel filter, all the fuel line. There's really nothing left to change but the tank. I told him as it was getting late that the next thing we need to do is remove the tank and drain it so we can see if anything is in there floating around blocking it off.

[mjealey]

Yeah I agree. The dealer has taken the carb apart and cleaned it and it didn't change anything. This mower is just cursed. Never seen anything like this.

[mjealey]

That is what I was sort of thinking after checking everything else out. The only thing that makes me think there is a chance that it is not that is the fact that we took the fuel pickup lines out of my other Snapper that runs fine and put them in and it still did it. Bought another set of brand new lines and it still did it. I will go to the dealer on Tues. and we will try doing that. You never know that might solve the problem.

[ALC-GregH]

I think they are over looking the tank it self. The lines are most likely fine. Stuff in the tank will do what your talking about. I'm going over to my buddies house today to drain the tank on the loader and see if I can find anything in the tank. We've checked everything and replaced everything we can think of but it still does it. The tank is the only thing left that it can be.

[lawnman_scott]

This is very frustrating. Dealer knows that I am not mad and I have not paid a penny throught this whole thing just frustrated. A person even called me from Snapper headquarters today and said the if it is not fixed by Wednesday thy will send me a brand new one.

Keep in mind these are made by Ferris and are the exact same thing. If Iorder parts they come in a box with Ferris on it. Somebody else has had to have problems like this before. PLEASE HELP!!!!All I can suggest is to ask Sean to delete this thread. There are some people here that may be able to help. I would just smile till Wed, then reluctantly take the new mower and let them tinker with it.

[Lawn-Sharks]

Don't worry so much about it, you said if they cant fix it that they would give you a new mower! I have a 52" Snapper Pro w/21 hp kawi and i have had some of the same issues, but not as severe as yours. I now have over 2,600 hrs on my mower and it has only been to the dealer for a engine case seal, shaft seal & gas caps other then that i have had small problems similar to yours but nothing that has stopped me from mowing. Good luck with your new mower!

[Grits]

Something is in the tank.

[freddyc]

If thjeres fuel in the tank and the tank is vented, then unless theres a restriction in the pickup tube then gas has to flow as long as the pump is pulling.

That being said, the assumption at this point is that you at lease looked into the tank hard for junk and didnt find anything.


Is the pickup tube or fuel line at the tank collapsing causing its own restriction?

Disconnect the fuel ine before the pump, hang it in a can, fill the gas tank full, and just let it flow natuarally to the can.

The pump should be rated at a certain pressure and or pickup value----has it been tested?? I know, a new pump was put in--- a guy put the wrong coil in my bobcat too but it sounded good till I checked it myself!

Get the mower running and look at the fuel line---is it still round all the way to the tank or does it look flatter anywhere along the length?


Leave the cap off the tank and run it.....forget about assuming the venting is OK...eliminate it all together.


Get it running and put the thing on a decent slope----both uphill and downhill. See if it still runs OK


Not sure what kind of pum p you have on you engine but---is the mechanism or vacuum that makes the pump work OK?? In other words, could the pump be intermittently failing because its not actuall being cycled? If its a diaphram pump, I believe there a vent on the back....not sure about it on yours.

good luck

[mjealey]

We strapped a small tank on the ROPS and hook it straight into the carb letting it be gravity fed and it ran no problems. Did the exact same thing but hooked it to the carb and it seemed to be fine. I personally thought that it might be bad pick up lines in the tank. However we took the lines out of my other snapper that runs fine and put it in the tank and it still did it. Cleaning out the tank seems like the last thing that we can do. Maybe that will fix it.

[Sharpcut 1]

Your problem is a Kawasaki problem. I'm a Hustler, Walker, Chopper dealer. I've had at least a half dozen of the 19-23 HP kawasaki verticle shafts do this. One of them was actually the fuel solenoid under the carb. it must have been loosing contact after a while, and the shaft would go up into the jet and shut it off. Ended up using larger Kohler fuel filters and getting rid of that small Kawi filter.Like you said, the filter dries up. Trust me, we lost a ton of hours on these engines when it first happened. Part of it still seems to be vapor lock. We also tried different fuel pumps, did'nt make a difference. Using a remote gravity feed tank seemed to help. This problem seems more prominent in the internally vented carb. Ask your dealer if it's internal or external vented. If it's external, you need to lengthen the vent hose and run it all the way back to behind your starter. the area under the carb has too much turbulance,and will cause it to run rich and flood out. What do your plugs look like? All the ones I checked were almost perfect, even a little on the lean side. The ones I converted over to the larger filter never came back. The one with the fuel solenoid problem was harder. Taht was becaus like yours, when you turned the key back on, it would re-energize, and pull the shaft out of the jet, choke it, and it would start back up. I have ran these 3 hours with the clutch on, and then hammered the hydro's getting them to act up sometimes, sometimes only a 1/2 hour. I wanted to try a cool can on these (where the fuel line runs through a cooler with ice in it) but never had to go that far. Read some other problems on here with 17-23 hp Kawis and you will see it sounds fuel related. I never lost spark on any of the mowers I spoke of. Had 2 spark checkers on there, and they never flickered.

[mjealey]

It soubds like we might be onto something. When it first started happening I pulled the plugs and they seemed to be fine. I was affraid that it was really leaning the motor out, but the plugs had just a little whitish tent to it. Will say something to the dealer about the fuel soleniod. They said they checked it and it seemed to be fine.

[mowerknower]

I vote for vapor lock. But hey who cares. You get a new one on Wednessday. Sounds like you have a good dealer. Thats good to hear, I also got to give you props for not getting mad, patient understanding customers will always get treated better than people that are pissed off. Also stick with that dealer, every once in a whle there is some odd problem that I cant figure out, it doesnt mean Im a bad tech. I hope you got a loaner out of all of this.

[Stillwater]

I also got to give you props for not getting mad, patient understanding customers will always get treated better than people that are pissed off. Also stick with that dealer, every once in a whle there is some odd problem that I cant figure out, it doesnt mean Im a bad tech. I hope you got a loaner out of all of this.


from my experience I have found this to be so true.......

[mjealey]

Yeha I agree, I see guys that come in screaming mad over the littlest things and the dealer isn't as happy to help them out. I seem to get a little further when I am calm and tell them that I do need it in 2 days and they are more than happy to fit me in. Yelling and screaming doesn't always work. This mower has a curse on it. I have tried everything. Only thing left is to put a brand new carb, fuel soleniod on it and see fi that works. We'll see.

[MowerMedic77]

Hooked a gravity feed line and tank up straight to the carb and it is fine.

Doing this would eliminate the mowers fuel system and the fuel pump itself, before they did this did they run clear fuel line from the fuel filter to the pump and from the pump to the carb as per kawi test procedures?

[mjealey]

I am not to sure if they hooked up clear lines. I think the said that they hooked the gravity fed tank straight to the carb, staraight to the pump, and then straight to the fuel filter. From the est that I remeber it ran fine when it was straight to the carb. I can't remember what they said when it as hooked straight to the carb and straight to the filter. We've tried so many things I can't even remeber everything we've done!!! I think it ran fine when they hooked it to the carb because they have ruled it out and said it is working fine.

[MowerMedic77]

How many hours(run time) does this mower have?

[mjealey]

I took it in to the dealer with 6.6 hours. The only way to get it to act up is with full load and the blades on. Now it has 12.8 hours on it.

[Tharrell]

I read the first page and skipped to the last to see if there was a resolution yet. Sorry!
Anyway, I know it's a long shot but, try NEW PROPERLY GAPPED spark plugs.I know it's silly but, weak spark can mimic fuel problems when under a load.
It happened to me on my 601v. My 601v ran great until I engaged the blades then it would sputter inconsistantly. New plugs solved the problem. Tony

[Tharrell]

Well? What's the latest? Tony

[Tharrell]

I wonder what the resolution was? I hate it when people disappear or simply don't follow up. I guess it's to be expected though, out of 47 posts, he posted 20 times to his own thread. Tony

[Richard Martin]

I hate it when people disappear or simply don't follow up.

The very reason you rarely ever saw me reply to a Bobby Gedd thread. He was terrible about starting something and then just walking away.

[Restrorob]

And to think, I read EVERY post and am now left hanging as well.....:hammerhead:

[mjealey]

All right it is finally fixed!!! I have been out of town for the past few days or I would have left an update. I apologize.
Last Monday I took off of work and went to the dealership. I was with them and this is what went on. All of you know that we have tried everything that was suggested and nothing helped. Put new plugs, fuel lines, fuel filter, fuel pump, fuel tank selector switch, pick ups in the tank and cleaned out the tank and nothing helped!!! Put clear fuel lined on it and ran it. Every time the mower runs fine and starts sputtering usually exactly right at 30 minutes and then would eventually shut off a couple minutes later. With the clear lines we could see bubble in the line and could tell the carb was not getting any fuel. we proceeded to call Kawasaki again. We have already been on the phone with them for probably 2 hours through this.

After doing all this and it didn't fix it Kawasaki thought that it might be something internal. Checked the compression and it was fine. Did a leak down test and it came back fine. Kawasaki said to take the fly wheel off and look inside at the reed valves to see if they are working properly. We did this and everything looked fine and checked out ok. After all this Kawasaki said they would overnight a new motor. Actually got the motor last wednesday morning. If this didn't fix the problem Snapper had another mower that they were going to give to me that day.

Here is where it gets good. Dealer put on the new motor that morning. They ran it for about an hour and it didn't do it. I picked it up that night and went to a wide open area and ran it for 2 hours straight. I had absolutely no problems and it ran great. I think I got a bad motor from the factory. The new motor has a lot more pep to it and it feels a little bit stronger. Kawasaki has no explanation for it and 3 dealerships were stumped by this. There is really no explanation for all of this. The only thing I can think of is the carb. The new motor came with a new one on it obviously. We had the carb off several times off the old motor and never found anything.

I didn't get a new mower, but at least I got all new everything else and it runs strong now. Put 8 hours on the new motor and it runs great. Kawasaki has taken the motor back to the R&D department and are going to look through the motor and see if they find anything and let the dealer know if they find anything. They have not really had anything like this before. It is still a mystery but at least it is fixed!!!

[captn]

As before, my gut says the carb......Choking a warm engine to start it was the give away.

[olfrt]

Have they tried running the unit with a set tank, going directly to the carb. To isolate the fuel system at the engine? If this is done it would validate the fuel system from the carb back if it had no running problems. If the problem persisted it would prove the issue is in the engine.

I have seen floating items in the fuel tanks act the same way.

I have also seen tanks with a top fuel pick tube have a crack in the tube and start having issues after the fuel gets below the break in the pick up tube.

[Richard Martin]

Have they tried running the unit with a set tank, going directly to the carb.

That is covered earlier in the thread.

[mjealey]

One more thing guys. As I mentioned, I have a new motor on it and it seems to run fine. I ran ifor 1.3 ours straight tonight. Like I said the mower runs fine, but you can never see any fuel in the filter. Like there is just a little fuel passing through but there is not enough fuel in the lines to where you can see it in the filter. I hsve never seen this in any of my other mowers. Is this normal in some? Anybody's else like this?

[mowerknower]

Nothing to worry about.

[mjealey]

Thanks I appreciate it. It concerns me that this mower is running a little lean and reduce its life over time.