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Mike M
09-01-2008, 04:44 PM
I think it was Mike G. that recommended MAPP gas for heat-shrink on the Ace connector.

That stuff is way too hot and catches lawns on fire. I tried backing off from the direct flame to keep the tube from getting burnt, but that only increases the area exposed to the heat up to the insulation, and still burns everything.

I was in pinestraw, and to avoid a forest fire, I hung the connections up in the air while heating them. It was at that moment I felt like I was toasting marshmallows. You know how some people let their marshmallows catch on fire and then say they like them that way?

Then I remembered the Pete story about the marshmallows.

Anyways, I'm keeping the MAPP gas in the garage for getting seized nuts off of stuff.

I have a heat gun, which is perfect temp. for heat-shrink, but I wanted something faster to set up and portable.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
09-01-2008, 04:58 PM
Of course MAPP gas is insane for that application. It burns hotter then propane.

I have used butane mini-torches when caught without a heat gun, but find them a pain in the arse.

The electric heat gun is def. the way to go with the ACE Connector and generally any 3M shrink tube material.

Have a great day.

Mike M
09-01-2008, 05:54 PM
James, what's wrong with those mini butane torches? Do they blow out easy like cig lighters?

No biggie. I'm working on a hurricane plan at the moment. As you can see, I am procrastinating. Who really feels like preparing for a hurricane. Besides, the more I plan, the more money I'll spend. It starts with canned food, and before long you are at Lowe's buying a honda generator.

All but one of the Hanna models are aimed at me. What do I do with our stupid cat if I leave? We already have two dogs and kids and stuff. Do I let the cat outside or do I lock it in the garage? If I lock it in the garage, I'll have to buy a litter box.

In Pennsylvania, whenever the threat of a blizzard came (almost weekly), everyone just ran to the grocery store and cleared out the milk. Nobody had an expensive "blizzard" kit full of batteries and tape.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
09-01-2008, 08:17 PM
I just find that flame is not the best way to shrink the tubes... it is too hot and you end up charring them too often. The electric heat gun is the way to go.

I hope you guys dont get hit by any hurricanes... I can't imagine what a drag that must be... just the worry alone has got to take its toll.

I have rather naiviely booked a trip to the Fla. Keys in two weeks for my wife and I!!! To a crazy expensive spa resort.... I hope things don't get too ugly down there... what a drag.

Eden Lights
09-01-2008, 09:18 PM
I always thought the G was seeing if we were crazy enough to use MAPP? It wasn't a joke?

Chris J
09-01-2008, 09:55 PM
I've had pretty good success with the small butane torches. The flame is adjustable, at least on the ones I have, and they also come with a "heat shroud" that allows even heating of all sides. I just can't see toting around an extension cord/s throughout a property to use an electric heat gun. Especially when that property might be several hundreds of feet from available power. I believe I would use MAPP gas before I would go through all the trouble of running extension cords.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
09-01-2008, 10:14 PM
Butane perhaps Chris, like I said you have to be careful with flame. MAPP not a chance, it is just too hot a flame to be effective. \

What type of butane torch do you use? I have tried the "Solder-It" brand, but they are a pain to get just right and not very effective in the wind or cold.

Mark B
09-01-2008, 10:50 PM
I know MAPP is a HOT gas. But if you are using a cheap torch head that might be your problem. I have a turbo torch head, it makes it real easy to adjust your flame down to a small flame.

So James you heading the keys huh. I will be there for fantasy fest down in key west the 2nd week of Oct.

David Gretzmier
09-01-2008, 11:04 PM
You can't beat those small torches that normally make creme brulee sugar crunchy on top. very portable, start right up. with heat guns you gotta plug in. they do work better, but not faster.

Chris J
09-02-2008, 12:17 AM
I'll have to check the truck tomorrow to see what brand it is, so I'll get back to you. I purchased mine through a distributor (which I won't name) but I saw the same equipment at home depot for half the price. Butane works great, but it does have it's disadvantages. However, the sacrifice is minimal (to me) over the advantage of having a portable, hand held mechanism that you can use anywhere. I've even got one in my kitchen cabinet that I use for candles, grill lighting, etc...

klkanders
09-02-2008, 12:59 AM
I have used the Butane pencil torch and also the simple lighters used for lighting candles, grills,etc... I always carry a few as they can be tempermental even without any wind!

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
09-02-2008, 08:12 AM
Yes, it is true... there really is a Battery Powered (Cordless) Heat gun!

http://www.malcomheatguns.com/product.php?id=16

I think that Tommy should be the first to try it for our applications...! And, at only $3995.00 each, they are a steal! :)

klkanders
09-02-2008, 03:45 PM
I agree. Tommy should buy 2 tho and get a better deal perhaps! Go Tommy!

Keith

Lite4
09-02-2008, 04:53 PM
I have used both the gun and the torch. The gun is definitely very effective but dragging the cord around is well, a drag. I purchased one of the mini butane torches that the chefs use and have had good success with it. However, it can burn the outside of the shrink sleeves a bit, but I have found that it is not detremental to the connection. They are also very susceptible to blow outs in the wind which is a bit annoying, but is a reasonable tradeoff due to it's compact size and convenience.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
09-02-2008, 05:13 PM
Now see, if you guys would just install UL1838 approved systems you would never have a connection more then about 100' away from your transformer! :laugh:

Its not that big a deal using the heat gun on the end of a 100' 14/3 extension cord now is it?? :dizzy:

Maybe I will just have to go out and buy one of those cordless heat guns... No big deal, I can just leave one of the children behind this winter and use the saved vacation money to pay for it! :nono:

Thanks for the applause :clapping: I will be here all week!

Chris J
09-02-2008, 05:22 PM
UL now has a standard for the length of your wire runs? Wow, that's a new one! :hammerhead:

irrig8r
09-02-2008, 05:55 PM
I have used both the gun and the torch. The gun is definitely very effective but dragging the cord around is well, a drag. I purchased one of the mini butane torches that the chefs use and have had good success with it. However, it can burn the outside of the shrink sleeves a bit, but I have found that it is not detremental to the connection. They are also very susceptible to blow outs in the wind which is a bit annoying, but is a reasonable tradeoff due to it's compact size and convenience.

I have three small butane torches, one kind of "pistol" shaped that's sold by Nightscaping (it was a gift from Bill actually), one kind of a "pen" style I got at Radio Shack, and I can't remember the third. They all pale in comparison to the consistent flow of heat I get from my Milwaukee heat gun.

I tried a propane torch and fried some shrink tube, then tried the butane, now I'm sticking with the electric. I dropped my Black and Decker one too many times from ladders and got the Milwaukee 8985 (http://www.toolup.com/milwaukee/8985.html) last year.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
09-02-2008, 05:59 PM
Best darned heat gun on the market Gregg.

"Good tools don't cost you money, they make you money."

Mike M
09-02-2008, 06:37 PM
James, 100 feet, lol. How much of your blood money goes to an EC? Sounds like you need some vertical elimination.

Mike M
09-02-2008, 06:43 PM
Gregg, I got that same gun this year. What would be cool is a nozzle on it to focus the air in a tighter current. Anywho, I still think we need a better portable torch.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
09-02-2008, 07:34 PM
James, 100 feet, lol. How much of your blood money goes to an EC? Sounds like you need some vertical elimination.

I guess you didnt see the humour in my post Mike...

As for EC's... well I don't pay them... the client does. I simply specify where, what type and how much power I need.... you know, like a Designer would. I figure let the pros handle what they know best, and it tends to garner more respect in return.

irrig8r
09-02-2008, 08:59 PM
Gregg, I got that same gun this year. What would be cool is a nozzle on it to focus the air in a tighter current. Anywho, I still think we need a better portable torch.

Not here in California Mike. There are places where any open flame is a bad idea in the summer. Today hit 93 with only 10% humidity, and a light breeze... quite comfortable in the shade actually, but I'm often working in the hills in gardens that are designed to be drought-tolerant, bordering open space preserves and other native areas.

As it is, when it is this warm I clean oak leaves, dry grass, mulch, etc. out of the way and carry a spray bottle when using the heat gun. An open flame is really out of the question for me this time of year. I just don't want to take the risk.

Besides, the heat gun does a better, more consistent job on hot, cold or (especially) windy days. Currently (6:00 PM) 88 with 16% humidity and a 16 MPH NNW breeze...

Mike M
09-02-2008, 10:26 PM
Okay, first, Gregg, I got pets and fleas all over my house, please get rid of that horrible bug, I keep smacking my monitor.

James, did I just hear you say the client hires another biz to do some stuff within your realm of work? Going designer is okay, but that is so not vertical integration. If you need EC's for every install than you should have one as a wage earner on your payroll.

Here's what bugs me (not Gregg's bug): all the flipping money I have to spend that goes to pay for materials. So why spend even more money on another third party biz to put in my system?

I think it would be better to go 24v or LED and make really long runs. Why use LED's on 12v infrastructure? That's like putting a hybrid engine inside the trunk of a Hummer.

irrig8r
09-03-2008, 01:09 AM
Okay, first, Gregg, I got pets and fleas all over my house, please get rid of that horrible bug, I keep smacking my monitor.



I have no idea what you're talking about Mike.

Mike M
09-03-2008, 10:06 PM
Gregg, I don't like your sense of humor. I'm sick of bugs. I got bit (I counted) about 70 times by fire ants last week while handling bails of pine straw mulch. Two separate attacks, one on each arm.

Your pets must be from a flea circus, perfect synchronization, like a water ballet.

lol, anyone remember Martin Short on SNL doing synchronized swimming/water ballet??!!

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
09-03-2008, 11:30 PM
[QUOTE=Mike M;2496448}James, did I just hear you say the client hires another biz to do some stuff within your realm of work? Going designer is okay, but that is so not vertical integration. If you need EC's for every install than you should have one as a wage earner on your payroll.

So why spend even more money on another third party biz to put in my system? [/QUOTE]

Whenever and wherever we require line voltage infrastructure work to install a system we get a licensed electrician to do the work. 75% of the time that EC is the client's choice. 25% of the time we refer a local EC to the job. 100% of the time we have the EC bill the client directly. This avoids any illusions of us interfering with the EC's billing i.e. "marking up" their work.

Here in Ontario, in order to be a Licensed Electrical Contractor you must have at least one Master Electrician in the organization. There is no way that the little bit of line voltage work that I require would justify the expense of keeping a Master on the payroll. Subbing the work out is the way to go for me. Every business is a bit different Mike... it all depends on your market, volume, size of operations, etc etc.

As far as vertically integrating my operations... "Going Designer" is most certainly achieving that. Re-organizing my business into divisions is the best thing to achieve this; Hence the formation of JSLDesign Inc. amongst others.

Chris J
09-04-2008, 12:13 AM
James, with all the success you seem to be having with your installations I really don't understand all this "vertical integration" stuff. Simply stated, if your making tons of money on your primary line of work, why do you see the need to look elsewhere for additional income? Sounds like you really are not doing as well as you portray. It's all good though. There are alot of others that seem to think they have to beg for attention by making others believe their are something that they are not. Good luck on your vertical integration. Hope you make some money soon cause winter is coming!

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
09-04-2008, 12:35 AM
Chris give it a break man cause your misguided refrain is getting old fast.

Either that or take a few Business Management courses and brush up.

Ask anyone who knows me and they will tell you I am driven. I have been having fun building this business and it doesn't make much sense to keep all my eggs in one basket. Most of the successful business people I know have all 'got there' by being involved in multiple levels of the same industry. Look at many corporate structures and you will find multiple operating divisions... this is for many reasons. If you don't understand this already then I am not about to spend my time to educate you on the benefits.

Ask yourself this simple question. Would you rather get paid once per transaction, or would you rather get paid multiple times for the same transaction. That my friend is the beauty of being vertically integrated.

Chris J
09-04-2008, 01:05 AM
OK, whatever dude...... I understand the concept, I just don't believe your at that level yet. Take it slow, and don't concentrate so much on getting the attention that you desire. Once you really are "the man" in lighting, you will receive the recognition such as Jan Moyer and Mike Gambino. Until then, just keep on trying.
Best of luck to you in your endeavors.

Chris J
09-04-2008, 01:11 AM
By the way, in an effort to stay on topic, I will submit to you the following contribution. The importance of this message is to illustrate that the proper use of MAPP gas is very much a valuable tool in the installation of LV luminaries with shrink sleeves. You just have to know what you're doing. Heat guns are for donkeys.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
09-04-2008, 01:16 AM
Thanks for your sincere concern for my well being Chris.

That is a lovely photo and some nice lighting... I can really see how the use of "MAAP" gas has enhanced the overall effect there! :)

Chris J
09-04-2008, 01:21 AM
Thank you James. It's nice to see you have some common sense, at least.

irrig8r
09-04-2008, 01:29 AM
Chris... other guys might use MAPP gas on shrink tube sleeves... but my experience tells me this:

A) propane can make them blister, and

B) MAPP gas burns even hotter than propane...

So it logically follows that MAPP gas is the wrong tool for this job.

Chris J
09-04-2008, 01:57 AM
Gregg, no offense to you personally. I was just trying to get a message across. Obviously that is not my photo. But it is the photo of a man that does excellent work for everyone that he chooses to accept as a customer. By his written admission, he uses MAPP gas on every installation. I find it hard to reject the opinion of someone as successful as he has been. Do you feel otherwise?

Mike M
09-04-2008, 07:51 AM
I think the image of carrying the mapp is worth the damage to the jacket, and the risk of incarceration for igniting a catastrophic event. The electric heat gun looks a lot like a hairdryer, and the 100' extension cord reminds me of the guys that cut their lawns with electric mowers.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
09-04-2008, 08:14 AM
Amazing how a bunch of lighting nerds can break a thread down into complete jibberish in only a matter of a few days! :)

Pro-Scapes
09-04-2008, 08:56 AM
Mike... what in the heck are you doing sticking your torch in the pine straw for.Hold your connection above ground. I do agree my heat gun works real well but I caught alot of flack for carrying my solder tray around from alot of you guys and that doesnt even have to be plugged in while in use!

Now its no secret I solder most connections but I do have some experience with ace connectors now and have installed several boxes both above and below ground. I do primarily use them in trees and gazebos tho for thier low profile connection.

I have mapp and propane both. Both will quickly incinerate the wire jacket...shrink tubing and pretty much anything they are pointed at.

Does your torch head not have an adjustable fuel flow ? If not I think you really need one. Im not sure which torches I got but they are both quick fire ones I picked up at one of the big box stores. I simply decreased the fuel level a bit til the tip of the flame is ever so slightly orange and its fine. I think the key is to heat evenly and not rush it.

Mark B
09-04-2008, 09:32 AM
Try a turbo torch head. I don't care for the cheap heads you can buy at ace or lowes.

You guys kill me. If someone want to use mapp that makes him a jackass. Y'all sound a bunch of women. You know how they are look at what she is wearing can you believe she has that on. Blah blah blah.

irrig8r
09-04-2008, 10:53 AM
Gregg, no offense to you personally. I was just trying to get a message across. Obviously that is not my photo. But it is the photo of a man that does excellent work for everyone that he chooses to accept as a customer. By his written admission, he uses MAPP gas on every installation. I find it hard to reject the opinion of someone as successful as he has been. Do you feel otherwise?

Yes, in fact.

I trust my own experience over claims made by someone else who might when I haven't seen the evidence.

No doubt Mike has had a lot of success. I respect that. I also respect his ideas (as I understand them) about fixtures, wire layouts and transformers, but I don't feel a need to agree with them all...

I pick the tools and methods that I find work best for me... and as far as MAPP gas goes, convince me... show me the splices.

irrig8r
09-04-2008, 11:05 AM
I have mapp and propane both. Both will quickly incinerate the wire jacket...shrink tubing and pretty much anything they are pointed at.

Exactly.

Does your torch head not have an adjustable fuel flow ? If not I think you really need one. Im not sure which torches I got but they are both quick fire ones I picked up at one of the big box stores. I simply decreased the fuel level a bit til the tip of the flame is ever so slightly orange and its fine. I think the key is to heat evenly and not rush it.

OK, with some finesse perhaps... but at a lower flame it tends to go out more easily and it's still a potential fire risk in some of the places where I work... (see my earlier concerns.) Dragging extension cords is not that hard to do, ya know?

JoeyD
09-04-2008, 11:10 AM
Mapp Gas

Mapp gas is made from combining liquefied petroleum and Methylacetylene-Propadine. It can be used for heating, brazing, metalizing, soldering, flame hardening and cutting. Mapp gas produces a flame temperature of 5301° F (2927° C) and 2405 Btus. Making it a good choice when a hotter flame is neded for example breaking a rust bond on a pipe or a large plumbing repair that is at leat 2”.

Propane

Propane is made from refining crude petroleum and natural gas. It does not burn as hot as mapp gas making it a better choice for1/2” and 3/4” plumbing. Propane is often the choice for the homeowner or do-it-yourselfer because it works well for small jobs and is significantly cheaper than map gas.



MAPP Gas, if used with a torch fitting that allows for adjustment will actually last longer than the same size bottle of propane. That maybe another reason Mike G. prefers it. Here at Unique when we shrink tube our connections we use an industrial electric heat gun with a sheild. It shrinks it in seconds without the risk of an open flame burn from propane or MAPP.

Mike M
09-04-2008, 01:10 PM
I don't have the adjustable head. That may be where I went wrong.

James, you can expect any of my threads to spontaneously combust into the ridiculous without much warning.

Pro-Scapes
09-04-2008, 01:11 PM
Yeah, I tired to edit my earlier post but I was too late. Donkey, jackass, multiple personalities... it's all good. :laugh:

unbeiliveable. Different tools work for differend guys. Who cares if he wants to use a flamethrower to shrink his tubes as long as its done right and he knows how to handle it.

Trust me. Pinestraw will catch on fire pretty quickly with a heatgun as well. Maybe not as quick as with a torch but who says Mike G is cranking his torch up to 5000 degrees ? I can turn the fuel down on mine a bit and shrink boot just fine ESPECIALLY when it comes to that thick ace connector booting. If your blistering it then your too impatient or your technique is that of a jacka$$

Gasoline burns hotter than diesel and is more unstable but because you drive a gas truck and I have a diesel does that make you a jackass for using a hotter fuel? No because you know how to use it and you (hopefully) use it safely.

I think its unfair to call someone names who is A)not here to defend themselves and B) alot more experienced than most of us.

irrig8r
09-04-2008, 01:42 PM
unbeiliveable. Different tools work for differend guys. Who cares if he wants to use a flamethrower to shrink his tubes as long as its done right and he knows how to handle it.

Trust me. Pinestraw will catch on fire pretty quickly with a heatgun as well. Maybe not as quick as with a torch but who says Mike G is cranking his torch up to 5000 degrees ? I can turn the fuel down on mine a bit and shrink boot just fine ESPECIALLY when it comes to that thick ace connector booting. If your blistering it then your too impatient or your technique is that of a jacka$$

Gasoline burns hotter than diesel and is more unstable but because you drive a gas truck and I have a diesel does that make you a jackass for using a hotter fuel? No because you know how to use it and you (hopefully) use it safely.

I think its unfair to call someone names who is A)not here to defend themselves and B) alot more experienced than most of us.

You are right Billy. To each his own. And name calling was inappropriate. Mea culpa.

irrig8r
09-04-2008, 01:46 PM
.....MAPP Gas, if used with a torch fitting that allows for adjustment will actually last longer than the same size bottle of propane.

Probably true, but does it offset the higher cost?

JoeyD
09-04-2008, 02:43 PM
Probably true, but does it offset the higher cost?

probably not....personally I would probably use an electric heat gun but I also wouldnt be heat shrinking every connection I put in...............

JSLDesign
09-04-2008, 03:08 PM
probably not....personally I would probably use an electric heat gun but I also wouldnt be heat shrinking every connection I put in...............

Drum Roll Please!

That is one of the best comments left in this thread thus far!

:clapping:

Mike M
09-04-2008, 03:33 PM
I thought the problem was the tool, but now I'm thinking user error (me). I'd still like to get through the learning curve, now that I see there is an adjustable head. The one I was using is too hot up close, and when you back off, you widen the heated area and burn the jacket.

Pro-Scapes
09-04-2008, 05:24 PM
if you cant handle mapp then use propane.... if you cant handle propane then drag your cord around with you to every splice. I still think Your getting too much fuel in your torch head.

Joey hit it on the head. I still dont Ace every connection like some installers do. Solder and grease tubes have worked VERY well for me. I still have 3 mo left on my test. I have a soldered connection in a grease tube and its 2 ft under water in my pond. I will be checking the resistance and posing photos when I pull it up in december. So far it looks like all I have is Algea

irrig8r
09-05-2008, 11:26 AM
Found another use for my heat gun yesterday when sealing Ace Connectors.... works really well as an ant blaster. Disturbed a nest when replacing a pile of 3" to 6" cobbles over the cables. No fire ants here, but they were swarming all over my boots and legs up my pant legs before I knew it.

I guess it kind of baked them... and blew them away...

Mike M
09-05-2008, 05:50 PM
Yes!! Score one for the landscaper. MAPP would have been even better.

irrig8r
09-05-2008, 07:36 PM
Yes!! Score one for the landscaper. MAPP would have been even better.

Except that would have set my boots on fire.... :hammerhead:

BTW, quick dry roasted ants smell the same as when you crush them underfoot... or squeeze them between your fingers...

Chris J
09-05-2008, 08:10 PM
Chocolate covered roasted ants. That has to be a delicacy somewhere!

David Gretzmier
09-06-2008, 03:35 AM
off topic here, but in that photo, Is it me, the exposure of the camera, or are those lights a little bright? especially at the water, it is too much hot spot. normally Mike G's lights and pictures are quite beautiful. for some reason, the mapp gas picture one hurts my eyes a bit. Perhaps it is the Mapp?

Mike M
09-06-2008, 07:35 AM
I always give benefit of the doubt with pics online here because of how sucky digital cams are at tonal ranges.

irrig8r
09-06-2008, 10:39 AM
I always give benefit of the doubt with pics online here because of how sucky digital cams are at tonal ranges.

I wasn't sure if the timing of the photo (in relation to sunset) was perfect, or it was digitally edited/ enhanced.

I thought it looked great though...what's that sky color called?
Parrish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxfield_Parrish) blue? Cerulean (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerulean) blue? Cobalt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobalt_(color))?

Pro-Scapes
09-06-2008, 06:57 PM
it had the snot compressed out of it to fit the needs of posting it online.

You can see the pixelation in some areas

Doesnt matter if they are hot or not. The splices are no doubt working.

irrig8r
09-06-2008, 07:35 PM
Yeah, thanks to "MAAP" gas. Maybe misspelling it makes it work better at a lower flame.

Pro-Scapes
09-06-2008, 10:42 PM
rediculous... once the pic is justified there just has to be another problem with the spelling. Mike emailed me a new pic. This is rediculous to continue discussing. If you feel mapp is too hot then use propane. If you feel thats too hot then by golly use buchanan crimps! Let me guess.. there is a problem with this pic too

"Sorry to assault your senses with the previous photo. It must be the
cheap canon 5d with the 24-70mm pro lens I used to shoot the photo with
as it was not touched up but severly compressed to post.
I have been looking to trade in this piece of junk camera for sometime
now.
Please accept this new photo as a show of good faith.
In addition I apologize for the crude spelling of Mapp.

Much thanks,
Mike G"

klkanders
09-06-2008, 11:43 PM
Beautiful Mike G! And I'm sure the connections are as well! :)
Take Care!

Keith

David Gretzmier
09-06-2008, 11:43 PM
Yep, that sure sounds like the Mike G we all used to love. Always willing to speak to us as adults and professionals. Pro-scapes, thanks for the new photo which looks awesome and more on par with other mike g photo's, and also for bowing down to the mike G idol and dissing us at the same time for pointing out mistakes. hail King mike. OOgah Oogah.

David Gretzmier
09-06-2008, 11:45 PM
whoa, are those CHRISTMAS lights in that photo? I see like 7 or 8 strands in the sky.

Pro-Scapes
09-07-2008, 07:27 AM
Yep, that sure sounds like the Mike G we all used to love. Always willing to speak to us as adults and professionals. Pro-scapes, thanks for the new photo which looks awesome and more on par with other mike g photo's, and also for bowing down to the mike G idol and dissing us at the same time for pointing out mistakes. hail King mike. OOgah Oogah.

whatever dave. I am not bowing to anyone just showing support for a friend. Rememeber the whole point of this thread. heat shrink CAN be done with mapp.

Your comments are way out of line and its BS like this that caused me not to be on here for sometime.

Pro-Scapes
09-07-2008, 08:22 AM
I didnt realize an ever so slightly over exposed photo or compressing it so it doesnt take 5 min to load was a mistake. I would love to know how you feel I dissed you David.

irrig8r
09-07-2008, 11:40 AM
"Sorry to assault your senses with the previous photo. It must be the
cheap canon 5d with the 24-70mm pro lens I used to shoot the photo with
as it was not touched up but severly compressed to post.
I have been looking to trade in this piece of junk camera for sometime
now.
Please accept this new photo as a show of good faith.
In addition I apologize for the crude spelling of Mapp.

Much thanks,
Mike G"

Well Mike,
I have to say, if that photo is not tweaked, you are a master at both timing your shots and working your camera settings.

I don't think the success of your design has any relation to what connections you use or how you heat them though...

Also, quick question:
On that front and center post - midway up... is that another fixture or just something on the post creating a hot spot? I think it would look better without it.

Pro-Scapes
09-07-2008, 08:38 PM
your right gregg... The photo didnt show the splices nor did it show the use of mapp in closing them. Im pretty sure I will be flamed for relaying a msg but I am just trying to make a point that its in the technique and not the tool altho I dont get my hands nearly as close as the photo shows lol.

"I posted the 2 project photos in response to this thread to bring light
of the fact of how ridiculous this post about the use of mapp gas being
ridiculous is.
Of course the quality of the photo or the work has no direct correlation
to the use of mapp gas and that is my point.
I took the liberty of taking a photograph of my helper (that's right I
am no longer a 1 man band- Yes I have workers compensation insurance
Gregg. You are going to check the CSLB site anyway and you will find out
for yourself) making a splice with mapp gas on Friday.
Notice how close the flame is to the splice and how close it is to the
ground cover. Now look at the finished product.
I have personally used the same method for as long as Ace connectors
have been in existence approximately 10 yrs.
Never once have I cause a fire.
If my employee who has been doing this for less than 4 months can do
this without incident then the rest of you professionals with far more
experience can do it too.
In response to your inquiry. No none of my photos have been retouched ,
only shrunk to a size suitable for the net.
The christmas lights are not mine, nor installed by me as I do landscape
lighting only. On the front and center post that is not a light fixture.
That is a hanging windchime the owner has there. It must be a reflection
of some sort (although I have no idea where from since the area has no
uplighting).
I agree the first photo did not look good after being severly downsized.
It was right out of the camera otherwise.
The second photo was shot at f8 for a 10 second exposures at the magic
hour with the camera in the bulb setting on a tripod and with a remote
shutter control/release again no retouching.
With some practice and a high quality digital camera yes you can shoot
photos like this too. No tricks or pro photographer ,no photoshop
manipulation or otherwise.
It amazes me the wealth of misinformation that gets dissiminated on this
and other boards by some who have no or limited first hand knowledge of
a subject.
If you want to drag around a corded heat gun to close every heat
shrinked splice then be my guest.
I know that I will close my splices in half the time with equal or
better quality. In business time is money and there is no reason to
spend extra time doing something when there is no advantage to it.
If you don't use lugs and sealent impregnated heatshrink at every splice
then that is your choice too. I know that there is no better splice out
there and I have the years of use and shear qty of them installed to
prove it. Never a failure. Not 1. Consider the cost of failure of a
splice and you tell me what's that's worth to have the piece of mind
that you are installing the best. It's priceless.
I'm not here to debate it, just to set the record straight.
Thanks for the opportunity.

Mike G

Lite4
09-07-2008, 09:08 PM
I to use Ace connectors exclusively for all my connections. I also used to only use the heat gun and drag around an extension cord (which was a joke). After the "Connections" thread that was posted on here last year and prior to MR. G getting booted from lawnsite, which I am still pissed about, He showed me some more pics of using the MAPP to shrink and explained about how it doesn't damage the sleeves internally, even with some flaming. He told me I would cut a substantial amount of time of my connections. Well, I took his advice and dumped the heat gun and now I am moving through my connections in a lot less time. I use my small butane torch when it is not windy and the MAPP for more blustery conditions.
Mike, Thanks for the advice. You contributions on this site are missed and it was nice to see some vicarious posting and pics (which were excellent by the way.)
Take care a be well.

Mike M
09-07-2008, 10:27 PM
I think Mike's new laborer is Billy (hehe).

I'm impressed by Mr. G's professional response to an otherwise ridiculous thread. Who started this stupid topic, anyways? Gregg?

I was worried about compromising the tube's integrity, but are you guys saying the sealant inside more than compensates if the outside gets a little singed?

Tim, are you using an adjustable head with the mapp for the flame? The one I have is not adjustable.

Lite4
09-07-2008, 10:37 PM
Mike,
Mine is adjustable. I usually shoot the MAPP at the torches lowest setting. If you singe the jacket a bit it's ok. It doesn't hurt the integrity of the connection at all. Just start on the low setting and keep the flame back away from the connection at first and experiment with the distances for your individual settings and comfort level.
You'll do just fine.

Mark B
09-07-2008, 10:46 PM
The other bad thing about MAPP is that your flame will act funny, when you go from upside down to vertical. I think is that some of the liquid gets out so your flame will get real funky at times. Also the turbo torch has the swivel head that help out in the those weird areas.

So am I understanding this right that some at using shrink tubes on every connection/hub? I bet that is a PITA IMHO. I bet it makes you feel like a plumber dragging a torch around all the time. LOL

Ok so it has me thinking, how does the cost of shrink tubes compare to grease tubes. I have been using grease tubes for the past year or so. I like the idea of a black connector instead of the orange tubes. I find it hard to hide the tubes, it is kinda like a hunter walking through the woods huh...

This has been a funny thread.

My southern .02

Mike M
09-07-2008, 10:55 PM
Thanks, Tim.

Yeah, I miss the old "connections" thread.

Mike M
09-07-2008, 11:03 PM
I use the orange tubes at my hubs, with my soldered connections. Very fast and very solid connection. Then I shove them inside a brown irrigation hub. I use the Ace for t's and extensions.

I know what you mean about the orange tubes, my first install was my own house, and those orange tubes pop up from my slack wire after I start moving my fixtures around. I would never use the orange tubes now for attaching leads on fixtures that don't come with 25'.

Mark B
09-07-2008, 11:15 PM
I can see using the shrink tubes adding leads at the fixtures. I try NOT to us any fixture that does not come with a 25' lead.

Maybe I will start to spray paint the tubes black or brown... Oh Boy I just had a moment. LOL

Lite4
09-07-2008, 11:24 PM
There are many acceptable ways to connect. I used to use the kings but I was unhappy with them so I switched to the Aces for my hubs. I use Buchanans and 1/4" shrink tubes for lead connections. For those of you that use Kings, I just received a sample of king wire nuts (black and grey) that have a snap over end like you have on a DBY. Pretty cool, but I don't use em. I have a nearly full box of standard grey/black kings (around 600-700) or so if someone wants to buy them.

klkanders
09-07-2008, 11:26 PM
Guys, When you run out of the grease tubes order the black ones. :)

http://www.suresplice.com/index.html

Keith

S&MLL
09-07-2008, 11:39 PM
Tim pm me about the King wire nuts.

Mike M
09-08-2008, 08:33 AM
You guys can look up "more splice stuff" -- put it on your summer reading list. lol. I was looking for the best connections when I started that.

David Gretzmier
09-08-2008, 10:21 AM
Mike M- To clarify- saying this thread has gotten ridiculous, and that now it was silly we noted the spelling of mapp was wrong, that would be you "dissing" us. further, Mike G in his last post through you finally answered my question, why the picture looked less than perfect, as I stated in my original post, most of his pics look perfect. Even though he has compressed and posted dozens of pics on this site, apparently there was a problem with compression, and NOT him taking the picture with his 5d, his work or whatever. I am ok with there being a compression problem. just say it, like he did in the 2nd post, and don't speak down to me, like he and you did to others in the original response. That is the BS on this site. There is no need to speak down to folks asking questions about photo's or spelling. We're supposed to be adults and professionals here.

Further, I did not know Mike G was banned from this site. I thought he left on his own.

irrig8r
09-08-2008, 10:39 AM
......

I took the liberty of taking a photograph of my helper (that's right I
am no longer a 1 man band- Yes I have workers compensation insurance
Gregg. You are going to check the CSLB site anyway and you will find out
for yourself) making a splice with mapp gas on Friday.


Not interested in checking Mike.

Notice how close the flame is to the splice and how close it is to the
ground cover. Now look at the finished product.

Looks fine to me.

I have personally used the same method for as long as Ace connectors
have been in existence approximately 10 yrs.
Never once have I cause a fire.

Neither have I, with propane, butane or my heat gun.. toasted a few leaves here and there though..

If you want to drag around a corded heat gun to close every heat
shrinked splice then be my guest.
I know that I will close my splices in half the time with equal or
better quality.......

Doubtful claim. The quality of the heat gun with a nozzle is unmatched. No scorched cable, and more even flow of the sealant. I can do a pair in under ten seconds when the gun is already warmed up. But you do what works for you and I'll do what works for me.

If you don't use lugs and sealent impregnated heatshrink at every splice
then that is your choice too. I know that there is no better splice out
there and I have the years of use and shear qty of them installed to
prove it. Never a failure. Not 1. Consider the cost of failure of a
splice and you tell me what's that's worth to have the piece of mind
that you are installing the best. It's priceless.
I'm not here to debate it, just to set the record straight.
Thanks for the opportunity.

Mike G

Well, at least we can agree on the value of a good splice.

Mike M
09-08-2008, 03:46 PM
Mike M- To clarify- saying this thread has gotten ridiculous, and that now it was silly we noted the spelling of mapp was wrong, that would be you "dissing" us. further, Mike G in his last post through you finally answered my question, why the picture looked less than perfect, as I stated in my original post, most of his pics look perfect. Even though he has compressed and posted dozens of pics on this site, apparently there was a problem with compression, and NOT him taking the picture with his 5d, his work or whatever. I am ok with there being a compression problem. just say it, like he did in the 2nd post, and don't speak down to me, like he and you did to others in the original response. That is the BS on this site. There is no need to speak down to folks asking questions about photo's or spelling. We're supposed to be adults and professionals here.

Further, I did not know Mike G was banned from this site. I thought he left on his own.

Dave, I think you meant Billy, not me (scroll up).

That, plus I am still waiting for Gregg to apologize to us all for starting this ridiculous post about mapp gas (don't scroll up).

irrig8r
09-08-2008, 05:21 PM
Dave, I think you meant Billy, not me (scroll up).

That, plus I am still waiting for Gregg to apologize to us all for starting this ridiculous post about mapp gas (don't scroll up).

Now Mike, you know better than that....

And I've been so nice to you over in the irrigation forum... and even suggested using your heat gun as an ant blaster....

BTW, you still in a motel room, or are you back home? Hope all is well.

Mike M
09-08-2008, 06:53 PM
Gregg;

We got back. All is great, thanks!

If I get motivated, maybe tonight I'll try looping some LED's with irrigation wire.

btw, do you think if I blame you enough, they'll forget that it was me who began this thread?

irrig8r
09-08-2008, 07:31 PM
Well that's what you get for trying to substitute Ace Connectors for marshmallows... I think they'd make the S'mores a little too chewy/crunchy for my taste...

David Gretzmier
09-08-2008, 09:33 PM
I prefer my s'mores with that mapp after taste rather than propane or electric. kinda smoky, but good.

Mark B
09-08-2008, 09:43 PM
I can't believe that you even think about using mapp gas. :nono::nono: It will burn the connectors. :dizzy::dizzy::dizzy::dizzy:

Mike M
09-09-2008, 04:19 PM
MAPP, for marshmallows? I refuse to form an opinion until I try it out, and then I will still refrain from an opinion, since there may be people with more experience than me toasting marshmallows with MAPP.

Marshmallow Accelerant for Particular People

irrig8r
09-10-2008, 12:02 PM
Like an Ace... probably less expensive..

http://www.paigewire.com/specs/P7363-LVC.htm

I think I mentioned this in another thread... I want to try them... not sure where to find them.

JoeyD
09-10-2008, 12:07 PM
Just contact Vince at Paige.............

irrig8r
09-10-2008, 12:56 PM
Just contact Vince at Paige.............

Thanks Joey. That was helpful. I just looked Vince up in the AOLP directory and called him. He's gonna call Ewing and have them call me about the splices. They come 25 pair to a package. I'll find out what the minimum order is....

irrig8r
09-10-2008, 01:14 PM
Joey... Damn... I'm impressed.

I just got a call from the Ewing branch manager asking me how many I want to order. He said that Vince called him, and that he's been trying to get Ewing to carry these and they haven't shown any interest until now.

Must have given them an offer they couldn't refuse... :laugh:

So it's a win-win-win: good for me, good for Vince, and good for Ewing.

JoeyD
09-10-2008, 05:01 PM
Vince is a great guy and a huge asset to this industry!