Toro Zmaster hydro drive belt problem??????

[LCAAR]

I have a Z597d Toro Diesel that keeps throwing the belt off the hydro pumps. cleaned pulleys, checked alignment and replaced the belt. Everytime I'm wide open and try to turn right or slow down it throws the belt. Irritating. The right hydro seems jerky when you slow down with the right stick, otherwise going forward or backward its fine. It just turned 600 hrs. Help please. I'm going to go nuts if i have to put that belt on one more time.

[LCAAR]

Also I ran a magnet through the hydro reservoir and got some metal filing with some brass filing mixed in with it. my cooling fan hydraulics are also making alot of noise (squealing) when it kicks on. It must somehow be thermostatically controlled? Not sure if the hydros would have anything to do with why the belt comes off?

[LCAAR]

anyone got any ideas?

[LCAAR]

ahhemmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

[ricky86]

One of your pumps (R/H) are tearing up. See if the sheaves turn smoothly. It ain't good. There is a update kit for the drive belt on those but it might not be your problem. Hydros have a 2 yr warranty. If it's within that time frame, get it to a dealer. I'm very familar with this unit.

[LCAAR]

I'd pm you but haven't figured out how yet.
Not under warranty.
pump seems to turn freely when belt is off.

[ricky86]

I dont know if you can pm me. Thats why I removed it. Metal filings in tank are not normal. The thrust brg is most likely grinding away. The brass color is the wear plate (grinding away). The cooling system should work whenever the engine is running. It has it's own pump and motor. Is the oil level low? Is the oil getting air in it (foaming)? I hate to say it, but you got big problems. How old is it? How many hours? You have a good dealer in your area? A flow test should be done. The whole system will have to come apart for cleaning unless the dealer has a power flushing system. There are no shortcuts. If there is comtamination in the system (and there is) it will quickly destroy the entire system and any new componates that are replaced

[LCAAR]

This is why the belt is coming off? It has 600hrs on it. How do I make sure it's not going to tear out everything else. The dealer I bought it from supposedly just changed the fluid and filters. I dunno?

[TLS]

Not sure about the belt layout on the Diesels....But make sure there isn't any debris in your pulleys. I had a stick jam between the pulley and belt and it stayed in the grooves (it was serpentine type multi rib type belt). I've also had sticks in normal V-belt pulleys.

Also check your idler pulley alignment.....again, I'm not sure how it's done on the diesels. Normal Lazers are known for idler wear and this will kick belts.

[LCAAR]

As I mentioned earlier I cleaned and aligned the pulleys and replaced the belt and that didn't fix it. I do know there is some wear on the Idler arm not the pulley itself but the arm it swings on. It has a greaseable bushing that is worn a little and has some slop to it. Not sure exactly how tight it should be. Basically the belt comes off the crankshaft and goes around one pump, around the other pump around an idler/tensioner and back to crankshaft. Pretty simple. It tracks correctly, pavement is the killer for this problem. THe belt really likes to come off when on pavement. Although it will occasionally come off in the grass.

[ricky86]

The belt coming off may be a symtom of a larger problem. Again, there is a kit that Toro came out with to address belt jumping on these units. Any Toro Z master dealer can get it. Then what about the filing? Something is happening in the hydro system. If the pump is failing internally and is running rough under pressure, that can throw a belt also. The update kit wont fix that. I can get the part number if you want to try it. The dealer might be able to get it under warranty with a little effort. Put the kit on and see what happens. Part # is 114-8244

[LCAAR]

I'd certainly be interested in trying that. I'd also have no problem putting a pump on if I knew that was the problem. Trouble is I just bought the machine and can't afford to stick a great deal of money into the darn thing as I may be better off to cut my losses and trade it off already. If you can get me the part number for the kit I'd be happy to get that and try it. As for the hydraulics I don't know how to know for sure what it is and would prefer to fix it myself if possible. I was told they replaced some parts before they sold it to me in the hydraulic system and wonder if maybe they didn't clean out the reservoir before they changed everything? Used stuff sucks that way. Dealer convinced me these things were indestructable and likely was no problem. I'm not a slouch when it comes to all things mechanical so I'd even tackle tearing the pumps apart. Lead me in the right direction and I will follow

[ricky86]

Part Number is 114-8244.

[LCAAR]

Thanks Ricky I appreciate your help, I'll check on that tomorrow. I'm sure I'll have more questions for you. I'll keep you posted!

[mowerknower]

Check your engine mounts. Could be loose.

[TLS]

Check your engine mounts. Could be loose.

Very good point!

[BigFish]

I'd certainly be interested in trying that. I'd also have no problem putting a pump on if I knew that was the problem. Trouble is I just bought the machine and can't afford to stick a great deal of money into the darn thing as I may be better off to cut my losses and trade it off already. If you can get me the part number for the kit I'd be happy to get that and try it. As for the hydraulics I don't know how to know for sure what it is and would prefer to fix it myself if possible. I was told they replaced some parts before they sold it to me in the hydraulic system and wonder if maybe they didn't clean out the reservoir before they changed everything? Used stuff sucks that way. Dealer convinced me these things were indestructable and likely was no problem. I'm not a slouch when it comes to all things mechanical so I'd even tackle tearing the pumps apart. Lead me in the right direction and I will follow

As Ricky86 said, the unit needs to be FLOW TESTED to be sure whats goin on. But ya can count on a pump, and probably a wheel motor.

[LCAAR]

Check your engine mounts. Could be loose.

They were and missing bolts but I replaced realigned and still jumps off. I thought that'd be all that was wrong but couldn't be that easy I'm sure!

[TLS]

Jumping belts can only be caused by certain things. Misalignment is the #1 cause. Debris in the pulley #2, physical mechanical removal (stick popping it off) #3, and idler tension not high enough #4. You could have several of these happening at once.

The engine is rubber mounted, are the pumps also mounted to move with the engine? Or are they rigid mounted to frame?

Have you replaced the spring?

With belt off, is full arc movement of idler possible w/o resistance?

You said idler bushings are worn? Have you replaced them?

You never did mention...is it a V-belt or multi-rib serpentine?

Any pictures? They're worth 1000 words, and it would never hurt to have a few more eyes look at it.

[LCAAR]

It's a v-belt. I could take pics I suppose but don't know what you'd be able to see. No I didn't replace the bushing for the tensioner as I didn't think it was that bad. The spring has not been replaced either I suppose I could do all that stuff too. I have a notion that Ricky is right. I hate to think it but the more I think about it the more it adds up. If one hydro pump is jerking harder than the other it could throw a loop in the belt and make it come off. I didn't think much of that filing as it wasn't much at all but who knows could be the start of a nightmare! I'll keep replacing the simple stuff I guess can't hurt anything. I do appreciate any advice. Thank you!

[kayeproperties]

I would be very afraid of continued use if the pump is coming apart. Those metal shavings will destroy your whole hydro system by the time you figure it out it will all have to be replaced. Be very careful or it will get very expensive in a hurry! I think the dealer pawned it off on you like you want to do. Someone is gonna get stuck. Hope you got a good deal!

[LCAAR]

Not sure if it's good news or not. Found out that the cooling fan hydraulic pump and motor were shot. I'm sure the filings could be from there. Ordered the update kit for the drive that comes with belt guides and a heavier spring and we'll see if that changes anything. Also got my suspension seat fixed last night. Wow that makes a difference. If I get all this stuff fixed I think it'll be one hell of a mower!LOL :dizzy::hammerhead: (the stuff I get myself into)

[ricky86]

It's sort of good news.Pumps cost as much as both the cooling system parts. But neither of those have any parts that will give you a goldish color in the oil. Maybe it's residual.Make sure you (or they) open those cooling components to make sure.There is a in-line filter for that part of the system. Oil starvation could have made them fail. If all is well after repair, change oil and filter after about 50hrs. That's real important after a failure. Since you got the suspension seat, you wont be able to use any mower without one now. When done, you will have a (I hate this word,but it applies)truly awesome mower. Wear hearing protectors!!!!

[LCAAR]

More good news, I took the hydraulic filter and cut it open and found nothing but clean oil. Granted It's only mowed for a few hours after the dealer supposedly changed oil and filter but I would think that's a good sign. Got my belt update installed today and tomorrow I should get the cooling pump's reinstalled so we'll see what happens.

[LCAAR]

got her put together yesterday and guess what! The cooling fan starts turning as soon as you start the engine. The belt stays on and the hydraulics seem way smoother. I'm as happy as a pig in poop! That thing is a machine. Put some new atomic blades on it before I went out mowing and not real impressed with them. They might work better earlier in the year when the grass isn't so thin, but not getting much lift and leaving a lot behind, very thin grass, been real dry. Anyone got a recommendation on toro blades. I have the oem units and atomic, haven't tried the fusion ones yet?