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DeepGreenLawn
09-02-2008, 05:38 PM
So...

Got the whole how to take proper care of trees...

I am working up a new "program" that is all inclusive (weeds, disease, 1 aeration, fert, etc etc). I have one for turf and am now working on one for tree and bush (what would be the right name for this?) care. SO, how many treatments of both compost and regular fert would a tree require through the year? 2, 3? I know they all vary but an average is what I am looking for... trying to keep it simple for any guys in the future doing estimates.

The ultimate goal is compost for fert, I hope I have made this clear, but until I can get the compost production up and running I want to have all bases covered...

Thanks,

DeepGreenLawn
09-02-2008, 05:49 PM
OK, it's looking like you want to fert new trees 6 months after they are planted... then about once a year with a SLOW release fert when the leaves drop? Then after they are "mature" they should be fine.... SO, when someone wants a tree and shrub program... THATS IT "tree and shrub" I knew it would come back to me, one of those brain farts... for us it would basically be compost in the "donut shape" and CT as both a soil drench and foliar app?

Compost maybe once or twice a year UNDER the mulch and CT app when we do lawn apps? Then the tree/shrub will be real nice and healthy. Or do the CT apps maybe 3 times a year? with compost?

Smallaxe
09-02-2008, 05:54 PM
Fertilizing trees and anytype of woody shrub is counter productive at best and causes weak and spindly, rapid diseased prone growth, otherwise.
Its a bad idea , but it SELLS.
So go for it.

Your next step is to 'cure' fungal and insect problems fertilizing creates. That SELLS even more, with higher PROFITS.

DeepGreenLawn
09-02-2008, 06:02 PM
Fertilizing trees and anytype of woody shrub is counter productive at best and causes weak and spindly, rapid diseased prone growth, otherwise.
Its a bad idea , but it SELLS.
So go for it.

Your next step is to 'cure' fungal and insect problems fertilizing creates. That SELLS even more, with higher PROFITS.

LOL,

Sorry, I was meaning the proper way of taking care of a tree/shrub. Not the pour the N on the plant and be amazed at how it takes off. But how to properly fertiilize for a nice HEALTHY growth with the help of preventing diseases.

I tell people that trees and shrubs take care of themselves with a few exceptions... but they don't like to hear that... so for those who REALLY want something done... that is the type of program that I am looking for.

Smallaxe
09-02-2008, 06:14 PM
I don't think you can improve on natural leaf mulch, but since that is unsightly partially digested leaf compost may be acceptable. And still keep down the weeds.
If they want to 'do' something for their trees. Cured compost is something good, but watch the weeds grow when they crank up the sprinklers. JMO.

dishboy
09-02-2008, 06:32 PM
So...

Got the whole how to take proper care of trees...

I am working up a new "program" that is all inclusive (weeds, disease, 1 aeration, fert, etc etc). I have one for turf and am now working on one for tree and bush (what would be the right name for this?) care. SO, how many treatments of both compost and regular fert would a tree require through the year? 2, 3? I know they all vary but an average is what I am looking for... trying to keep it simple for any guys in the future doing estimates.

The ultimate goal is compost for fert, I hope I have made this clear, but until I can get the compost production up and running I want to have all bases covered...

Thanks,

Alfalfa four times a years 2O lbs per K . fEED THE SOIL NOT THE TREE.

DeepGreenLawn
09-02-2008, 06:49 PM
Alfalfa four times a years 2O lbs per K . fEED THE SOIL NOT THE TREE.

That I understand... just wanting to know how to properly feed the soil for a tree...

Smallaxe
09-02-2008, 07:21 PM
I believe it was during the Jurassic Period in which the largest of all the world's trees were grown and put down millions of miles of coal seams throughout the Earth's crust. Come to find out - these megadudes were able to accomplish this because of their little buddies the alfalfa plants. Growing and nutricycling all around their root zones. :laugh:

Why does 20#/k work? Looks like a "one size fits all" approach to me. Climb out of the 'natural' box and into the 'suburban' box again -OR- think outside the salesman's box.

Is this ORGANIC or what?

DeepGreenLawn
09-02-2008, 07:30 PM
OK,

Lets restate the question all together...

Lets skip the first answer... soil tests... and pretend that the soil is not an issue, or getting it to the right levels of all that stuff...

Now... the soil is good, what is needed to continue to have a proper well grown tree/shrub? Is the needs of the soil that different for each tree? If I were to make a compost... what would I want that compost to look like? How often would you suggest it be applied, and good CT, use as foliar and drench? How often... I know I know... the more the better...

Thanks for the help so far...

ICT Bill
09-02-2008, 10:04 PM
Have you noticed with older trees how there basically rocks around the foundation of the trunk, over 20 or 30 years of living in a "turf" environment they are starved for the things that they need

FUNGI, fertile soil

I disagree with a previous post about taking care of a woody or tree creates spindly shrubs and trees, think like fungi and support their numbers, how?

crude forms of food, fungi actually like to eat ........fungi..... and wood and rock and crude forms of food. They are digesters, if you feed processed food they basically stop working but feed them crude forms and they will support the trees and shrubs very well

Now if you would like to get specific, certain trees like things different, an Aspen has a much different diet than an Oak and a Pin Oak has a much different diet than a Live Oak, they grow in these environments for a reason, because the other can't, more often than not

Ask TG she talks to them all the time in fact it is hard to shut them up they talk so much

DeepGreenLawn
09-02-2008, 10:23 PM
crude forms of food such as decaying wood mulch? Mix in a little compost?

JDUtah
09-02-2008, 10:56 PM
Haven't branched there yet myself, but seems like yep, a wood mulch around the base basically as far as the limbs go (not directly touching the trunk).. and an occasional root innoluclant of mycho's? Be ready to hit the chems with a bad bug infestation.... fight disease with a ct..

Or is there more to it?

DeepGreenLawn
09-02-2008, 11:02 PM
That is what I am thinking myself... maybe an OLD mulch for a base and then newer mulch on top... tea... and when the bugs come in do what I have too...

I don't see where it could go wrong from there though...

I did see a few trees at a house I put an estimate on the other day though where they had been dumping their grass clippings around the base... saw that "collaring(?)" effect yall are talking about...

Smallaxe
09-03-2008, 09:32 AM
Have you noticed with older trees how there basically rocks around the foundation of the trunk, over 20 or 30 years of living in a "turf" environment they are starved for the things that they need

FUNGI, fertile soil...

I have noticed with trees growing in turf that they suck up alot of fertilizer and water. They split the bark every season and the roots are growing across the top of the turf by the time they are 20 yrs. old. This is especially true of maple.

There is no big mystery about fungus. It is everywhere and is not fragile. Trees in their 20s certainly have created their own microenvironment in their rhizosphere. Around the back forest their are 10 varieties of trees growing on hillsides together with only sand and stone to feed them, with a leaf covering that they themselves provided.

...I disagree with a previous post about taking care of a woody or tree creates spindly shrubs and trees, think like fungi and support their numbers, how?

crude forms of food, fungi actually like to eat ........fungi..... and wood and rock and crude forms of food. They are digesters, if you feed processed food they basically stop working but feed them crude forms and they will support the trees and shrubs very well...

Taking care of a tree is different than fertilizing a tree. I have a landscape that the owner believes TGCL is just the 'cat's bananas'. Everyspring they inject fertilizer into the rootzone. Later spray for mites and of course the irrigation is tied to the lawn so huge amounts of water go into the shrubbery all summer long.
Disease ridden excessive growth? No question.
All of the unfertilized and unirrigated plantings and trees are doing just fine. Normal healthy shrubs that never are given a second thought.

treegal1
09-03-2008, 11:17 AM
feeding a tree, bad idea! the spurt growth is not good, and a high N grown wood is really weak, the hurricanes have pointed that out almost ever week now. bushes and shrubs are not the same but real close. the biggest mismanagement with trees is over watering and root damage, over watering is also a great way to rot the roots. of you are really wanting to help out a tree in your area, get an air spade and slit the soil in a radial pattern around the tree, add some very small amount of worm casts and refill the trenches and re mulch the tree with leaves and some wood mulch, the older and uglier the better, you can always stain the mulch with colorize after you lay it and this saves color. other than that you just need a really!!!good fungal tea, and some myco, sod grown myco is not the best, but we have seen great results from mycostim and some swiss stuff, maybe bill's tree tea?? we just add some myco off a starter we grow. alfalfa is just junk for a tree feed not that great a mineral # most of the time the tree if it is sick needs more metals

treegal1
09-03-2008, 11:27 AM
deep didn't we go over this last month?? you dont feed trees, and if you want to care for them then that is going to mean that you also stop feeding the grass around the trees and maybe remove some more of the grass also!!!

ok so a review.

1) no more watering it.
2) don't feed it, only leaves and some worm casts.
3) vertical mulching and uncompact the soil.
4)kill the sod around it and re mulch(*away from the trunk)
5)Increase fungal bio mass!!!!!!!


thats the 5 part tree health check list, its that simple, as an arborist most of the time I spend saving trees it just like this, I stop a human for what they thing is helping and really just in fact they are doing more harm than good!!!

BostonBull
09-03-2008, 07:04 PM
Just to add another view to this discussion..........

We find its harder to convince a client to spend more $$$ up front doing the air spade work, removing their painted wood chips and putting down real bark mulch, adding Myco/fungi/food (bio pack) to the soil, and compost/castings. Clients are much happier to spend a lesser amount to "feed" the tree with NPK no matter how many times we explain to them that in the long run they will have healthier trees, and spend less $$ with us to accomplish this.

Smallaxe
09-04-2008, 07:56 AM
Perhaps the arborists POV could help me understand something. The AM companion fungus grows with the root. [Either as point man or follows the root hair, can't remember] Now as it grows it is pretty much at a maximum population, depending on what tthe tree requires.

Much the same with the bacteria/archea populations increase and decrease depending on what the tree wants/needs and sends out the sugars and enzymes to encourage their growth and activity.

Simply put - that is how I understand it. So my question is:
"What is the function of the additional microbes sprayed in the teas?"

DeepGreenLawn
09-04-2008, 08:05 AM
one of my main reasons at this point for added microbes is disease resistance... I know there are many others but seeing all the diseases flying around here, that is almost reason enough...

Smallaxe
09-04-2008, 09:00 AM
That is why I would like to know how the good microbes would actually turn back a disease of an infected tree. To my knowledge, curing diseases in trees are 'iffy' at best and impossible in most.
You went through a rough drought last year, as did most of the rest of the country, and if they trees weren't properly watered then, the stress could easily have brought them down. A stressed tree attracts insects which in turn brings disease.

Good and sensible cultural practices are your best bet for healthy woody plants in your landscape. Mimic nature, [as much as possible] and you won't go far wrong. In my life, I have yet to see us improve on the natural design of anything.

My apple trees were flooded once in the late spring and again just recently. We have heavy clay so once saturated it holds for a while.
The leaves everywhere are turning early. Tells me the drought is full force affecting the trees. Poplars first. That tells me it is time to deepwater the trees again. Last year I was not on top of it like I should have been and did get yellow leaves b4 the apples were ripe.

IMO , not overwatering or underwatering with descent groundcover is what any tree needs to overcome disease and/or insect attacks. We can work with nature, complimenting the natural design.

DeepGreenLawn
09-04-2008, 11:23 AM
the CT from what I understand is more of a preventitive, preventing the disease from having a chance to take hold. Once the diseases are in... well, I haven't gotten that far with my studies... I am no expert, just relaying what I have found to be the case, there is a possibility that I am wrong, and if I am PLEASE say something and correct me. I have no issues with being told I am wrong, I like to be told I am wrong, if I never hear that then I will never correct my mistakes.

If we were to think about this... again, this is my theory that is loosely based, if you have an disease infected plant... you take a plant leaf that has obvious fungal diesease, like one I saw today, lets say you stick with JUST CT. That fungus is feeding right there on the leaf correct? SO if I pour on the good guys and have them out number the bad guys won't the bad guys start loosing ground? Maybe not correct the problem but rather prevent it from spreading any more? Then the bad guys lose its food source and die off. The plant starts to repair itself... wah lah...

Or maybe NPP? It is suppose to be fungicide correct? I have been using it on my lawn fungus' with pretty good results so far...

Again, just some thoughts, if you agree/disagree, please make it known so we can work this out.

Thanks,

Smallaxe
09-04-2008, 10:12 PM
I remember when Bill mentioned last year about CT being sprayed about the inside of a greenhouse. [Most of us think of bleaching and otherwise sterilizing the building, b4 moving in the plants.]

You are correct, according to what is being said. The theory is: There are populations of 'good guy microbes' that will prevent 'pathogens' from taking hold in a particular environment.

The clincher has been: "What microbes are there that work for trees?"

I have planted 3 apricot and 1 peach tree that can actually survive this far North. My first encounter with Southern fruit trees was its Southern Diseases, namely, Canker. It looks like bleeding pine sap but is actually a fungus.
I research, because this is something new and I am determined to produce good Southern fruit. There is no cure and you can't use sulfur paste because the apricots can't take the acid. I tried 'soda' with some improvement.

Essentially, if it is possible to 'prevent' diseases in trees, the way it works in grasses and greenhouses, there would be a big step forward in our ability to produce food along with great landscapes.

That is my interest in understanding how to deal with trees.
The problem is that, they live longer than us in total - Let alone the length of our studies. :) I only got interested 39 years ago.

treegal1
09-04-2008, 10:55 PM
you have to stay with it on the tea, every 6 weeks max, but I can tell you this also, we have never had a better crop of avocados and mango, not in 14 years have we made it to 11 tons of fruit in one season, and the fruit as all perfect and the largest and best tasting it has ever been. not to mention that we have saved heaps of money in fert water and chems to grow what we love.

DeepGreenLawn
09-04-2008, 11:09 PM
foliar apps once a month of any CT would help combat the numbers of the bad guys I would think... then whatever ones can work will work and the ones that don't die and become more food for the ones that don't.

Making your own tea, once you get it under control, appears to be pretty cheap from what I can tell so an app about once a month I would think would be more than capable. It would seem that this is one of the VERY rare times where too much is not such a bad thing I would think. The only problem then would be if the fungus comes from the inside out? So then proper root protection and wounds would be the main line of defense, and foliar apps wouldn't hur too much either...

Again, this is just my opinion based on what I have learned thus far... so take with a grain of salt until a more studied person can comfirm/correct my statements...

treegal1
09-04-2008, 11:40 PM
thats the idea, the majority of pathogens are air born. and its just a mater of filling the stoma so that nothing gan get into the "holes"in the plant. also forgot we did spray once with 2 oz of wood tar/ liquid smoke, dissolved into 400 gallons of water, as a pest control.the grove is 5 acres grown on coral rock. with 2 1/2 inch top dressing over 3 years, that's it nothing more, out of 11 growers on the ave only 2 , me and a Korean family have had a good year, seems that the pollinators did not come to there fields this year. that and most have to add a heap of fert to there fields just to keep on top of it, also noticed that me and the Wong's have no irrigation, her well went bad years ago and mine has had a busted pump since hurricane Andrew.

DeepGreenLawn
09-04-2008, 11:40 PM
you have to stay with it on the tea, every 6 weeks max, but I can tell you this also, we have never had a better crop of avocados and mango, not in 14 years have we made it to 11 tons of fruit in one season, and the fruit as all perfect and the largest and best tasting it has ever been. not to mention that we have saved heaps of money in fert water and chems to grow what we love.

one day... when I do get some land for my "compost facility" as I am referring to it now... I am for sure setting some aside for a small garden with fruit trees.

treegal1
09-04-2008, 11:41 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnLvP57UWh8

treegal1
09-04-2008, 11:55 PM
look at the wall at the 12:52 mark of the tape, about half way

Smallaxe
09-05-2008, 08:59 AM
So for the soil born fungi, such as root rot and stem swelling, there is not much to do except to quit overwatering. Is that true?

In my garden I like to hit the trees and shrubs with spray from the water hose in the morning to remove dust and exudates and let them soak up a supply of water [into the stomata] b4 they face another hot and sunny day.

Roses have leaf blight, like brown spot, but generally giving them sun and open air pretty well eliminates that without additional attention. Usually when our leaves turn brown it has to do with water. 2 much or 2 little.
Up here our biggest concern is insects eating leaves and repopulating in the foliage.

What sort of pathogens do you figure you are eliminating with foliar spraying?

Has anyone made any headway against canker by keeping the disease in check while invigorating it [the tree] to the point of overcoming the effects of the disease?

DeepGreenLawn
09-05-2008, 09:11 AM
[QUOTE=Smallaxe;2500129]

What sort of pathogens do you figure you are eliminating with foliar spraying?

QUOTE]

To be completely honest I am not sure what pathogens are out there. I know some trees I am dealing with are getting a sort of fungus so I was looking at it as a preventitive to anything really.

Proper cultural practices (watering) from what I understand will make just as much of an effect as proper feeding and treating. May be even more important. I have been told before... feed the soil and the soil will feed the plant. Get the soil proper and then you should be fine. Everyone keeps saying that a healthy plant, including trees I am sure, will be less favorable to pests. Not completely resistant, but not as inticing...

Get a healthy plant and treat pests as needed? Seems like that is an as needed basis with pests, more focus on proper plant health.

Smallaxe
09-05-2008, 09:13 AM
It was pretty blurry on the tape ,but I get the jist of it that it was natural cures of various types. Do you add other things to your tea for the monthly spraying?

DeepGreenLawn
09-05-2008, 09:14 AM
So for the soil born fungi, such as root rot and stem swelling, there is not much to do except to quit overwatering. Is that true?


Get an injector and inject CT to do the same thing of displacing the bad guys? Along with proper cutural practices (watering)? That I would think should take care of those type problems...

I am 99% sure that root rot is caused by too wet soil for too long... easy solution to that problem it would seem...

What is the proper watering schedule on avg for a tree? Same deal as turf? Once a week and deep? About an hour, of course depending on the soil.

Smallaxe
09-05-2008, 09:41 AM
Root rot is problematic in closed and cover areas as well. They had fabric over the top which eventually accumulates silt and slime so water and air do not pass through as promised anymore. Ground cover growing over the mat right up to the tree. So I opened up the ground around the base of the truck to at least give it some air.

They are going to continue ferts and irritate so that is the extent of my involvement. Its and ugly tree anyway I would rip it out b4 it gets too much larger. It growing like a weed of course.

My chief interest would be producing microbes that would be beneficial to inject in a tree. Tree specific vs grass specific microbes are all the same?

I cut a lot of trees in the winter and everytime I see black in the heartwood I am reminded of the fungi/bacteria/archea that grows in the xylem and/or phloems which actually blocks the tubes in those areas.
Makes me wonder if injecting something that would clear those tubes be better.

Could the good guys eat the canker then flush out? Has anyone injected a tree with bios successfully?

We are still in the beginning stages of tree doctoring and not very successful so far. We got another blast of oak wilt on the horizon and there is nothing we can do to stop it.

So these are questions that need to have some specific cause and effect relationship, that is sound and repeatable.

DeepGreenLawn
09-05-2008, 09:46 AM
I know that you can add different stuff to your compost to make it serve different functions... I don't know about CT... It seems its main purpose is to create good guys to populate the soil, unless there is a way to control different kinds, more fungal, more bacterial, (I believe this can be done with adding fungal compost (decaying wood) to the brewer) other than that as far as nutrients and all I believe that is a different product for a different service.

treegal1
09-05-2008, 09:49 AM
axe, you keep saying canker, we have an injection of OTC that gets used for some realy hard to kill pathogens.........

you also said injection I have a ton of reaserch into injections, and a lot of differant chems and bio controls.........

the oaks do you mean SOD in them???

DeepGreenLawn
09-05-2008, 09:50 AM
Mycrohizae fungi is what I hear everyone naming when it comes to trees. Bill has a 123 Tree that can be injected... the micorhizae (however you spell it) is one of the main things in that tree stuff. It can be injected or poured on as a soil drench I believe. I have never used it... just stuff I learned from talking with others...

Sounds like you just need to get the watering under control and keep the mulch off the base of the tree. A good fungal dominant, decaying mulch with compost?, topdress over the top and maybe a thin layer of new mulch for good looks?

The main thing it seems is fungal type apps.

treegal1
09-05-2008, 09:59 AM
deep you mean that bills can be deep root injected, not in a basal or root crown injection.

DeepGreenLawn
09-05-2008, 10:08 AM
thanks for the clarification... I didn't know there were different kinds... shows what I don't know about tree care... this is where the local tree company, that I will thoroughly investigate, comes into play.

Why would you do a basal, root crown injection rather than just a soil soak? More specific as to where it goes? Better results I take it?

treegal1
09-05-2008, 10:10 AM
this is one of those 101 reasons things. get specific and ask away

treegal1
09-05-2008, 10:31 AM
also hire an arborist, do a check and see with your own eyes his diploma and cert #, a photo show over the years they have been doing trees......... the decisions you make for the tree may affect its whole life of 400 years or more.

DeepGreenLawn
09-05-2008, 10:34 AM
I was just curious as to the purpose... it sounds like just a more direct treatment...

treegal1
09-05-2008, 10:40 AM
well for chems its just direct like a human injection, strait to the heart of the mater! for nutrition its a fast turn around and minimal material, for pest its the long term effects and the safety of not having to spray a 50 foot tree in the wind, its also really economical, as it uses very little chem to get the job done. with biological you can get the desired treatment into a tree in the most effective way and keep it almost totally without cross infection. this is more complicated than organics, its chemistry and math oriented.

DeepGreenLawn
09-05-2008, 10:46 AM
this is more complicated than organics, its chemistry and math oriented.

I am sure of that... trees, as far as treating for diseases and such, is something that I will sub out for a while until I can atually learn the process properly. As far as taking care of the tree with proper maintanence and cultural practices, that I don't believe, or haven't found otherwise, will be too hard to accomplish.

I will take proper care of the trees a long the way and when an issue comes up disease/insect wise get an arborist in there to do what is needed to be done...

BostonBull
09-05-2008, 09:55 PM
Tree

Any research on CT and HWA? Howabout scale of different types? Diplodia? You get the idea.........

treegal1
09-05-2008, 11:38 PM
the HWA is an easy target to get at, the scales are easy to control with a good tea and some fish oils,Diplodia, use a DMI fungicide, oh wow look at the time its consult 30.LOLOL. the HWA can be controlled with electricity, oh is that sound or, any ways its a high amplitude thing a ma jobber

Kiril
09-06-2008, 12:51 AM
TG, how about some some studies showing your control of scales with CT and fish oil, given they are one of the hardest insect pests to eradicate once an infestation has occurred. What exactly is the CT doing to control these insects, and at what stage of growth?

treegal1
09-06-2008, 01:32 AM
http://www.doacs.state.fl.us/pi/enpp/ento/aulacaspis.html

http://entweb.clemson.edu/pesticid/history.htm

http://books.google.com/books?id=3pnGgZNXyY0C&pg=PA24&lpg=PA24&dq=controlling+scale+with+fish+oil&source=web&ots=8Rhgq2yKmB&sig=0TMyscVlVddEK80R4ILNFI22eak&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=8&ct=result

http://arjournals.annualreviews.org/doi/abs/10.1146/annurev.en.06.010161.001151


see if these have what your looking for, if not let me know and we can try some others, maybe you will grace us with some of your paper, oh also the fish oil is registered for scales, but that dont mean all that. time to hit the hay, go to compost real early.

Kiril
09-06-2008, 02:26 AM
TG, I am aware of the conventional ways to control scales and the IPM methods as well. What I'm looking for is specifics on how and what CT specifically contributes to scale control and how fish oil (beyond your typical use of a hort. oil) plays with the CT.

treegal1
09-06-2008, 09:08 AM
plays with the CT???? the oil smothers them thats real simple. I don't think I have what your looking for, maybe you can help out and find some thing on tea and the specific mode of action, I am off to plant, not pontificate over the 4000+ soil bugs and how they get a scale sick. or "may get a scale sick". maybe ICT or some one will jump in for a second, after dark we can work this out some

Smallaxe
09-06-2008, 09:12 AM
axe, you keep saying canker, we have an injection of OTC that gets used for some realy hard to kill pathogens.........

you also said injection I have a ton of reaserch into injections, and a lot of differant chems and bio controls.........

the oaks do you mean SOD in them???


Great, I would like to do some reading. Preferably reading in the "How they work" category as opposed to "Testimonial" category.

SOD doesn't ring a bell, it was a single word and started with a 'T'. Botany 101 was a long time ago. :)

BostonBull
09-06-2008, 09:23 AM
I would also be interested to see how CT works with Adelgids, and scales. Tree: if you have any hard scientific data I would love to view it!

Thanks!

BostonBull
09-06-2008, 09:24 AM
the HWA is an easy target to get at, the scales are easy to control with a good tea and some fish oils,Diplodia, use a DMI fungicide, oh wow look at the time its consult 30.LOLOL. the HWA can be controlled with electricity, oh is that sound or, any ways its a high amplitude thing a ma jobber

We know how to control them from a PHC standpoint, we're looking for info on what effect CT has over these pests.

phasthound
09-06-2008, 09:48 AM
I would also be interested to see how CT works with Adelgids, and scales. Tree: if you have any hard scientific data I would love to view it!

Thanks!

Bull,
You should contact Peter Wilde http://www.bostontreepreservation.com/

PHS
09-06-2008, 10:54 AM
Smallaxe, S.O.D. - Sudden Oak Death http://www.na.fs.fed.us/spfo/pubs/pest_al/sodwest/sodwest.htm

For the others, Oak Wilt, http://www.na.fs.fed.us/spfo/pubs/howtos/ht_oakwilt/toc.htm

Kiril
09-06-2008, 11:43 AM
maybe you can help out and find some thing on tea and the specific mode of action

And there is the problem. I don't have any studies on CT and scale control, or any type of insect control for that matter.

ICT Bill
09-06-2008, 12:16 PM
smallaxe, SOD stands for Sudden Oak Decline, the many foresters and Arborists I have spoken with cannot agree why it happens or pin point one thing that causes it

phasthound
09-06-2008, 12:17 PM
And there is the problem. I don't have any studies on CT and scale control, or any type of insect control for that matter.

Check Ohio State University.

ICT Bill
09-06-2008, 12:29 PM
This is obviously anecdotal but what you are doing is changing the environment that they live in, selecting for different variables or food populations.

More often than not a beneficial or pathogen is there because the envionment is good for it to proliferate, if we change the conditions to select for what we want instead of what is there and support it over time we can often get it go somewhere else or decline the populations so much that its effects are not noticable.

With compost teas you are typically over running the population with something you want to be there or using the biology in the compost tea to use up the food source that is there for the pathogen, no food no pathogen until the food source comes back

There are certain bacteria teams that you can use to chew up almost all food sources on a leaf in a matter of hours, these guys hit the floor running and can increase population very quickly. they can double their populations in 20 minutes, this is not a linear thing, you can get huge populations very quickly. fungi by comparison take days to weeks to get populations up to a level that can be pathogenic, if you take away their food source they cannot expand their numbers. If you over populate an area with beneficials they have no where to go and grow

We also use fungi that love to eat fungi, especially mycelia. hit the fungal populations with these and their numbers decline quickly. We also trigger hormones and enzyme production to the populations of fungi and bacteria. These guys have been doing this for millions of years, if they sense a competitor is coming into the area they begin producing enzumes that basically nuke the competitor or make the area surrounding them toxic to others

Bacillus subtillus, a common soil bacteria, produces a chitinase enzyme that is an excellent degrader of chitin, guess what makes up fungi mycelia, you guessed it chitin. guess what makes up the body of bacterial feeding nematode (actually all nematodes) you guessed it chitin, guess what the exoskelaton of grubs is made of you guessed it chitin.

These hormones and enzymes are weapons in the soil world, it is a war down there. If we can select, in a very general way, for the reactions and responses to a plant pathogen our guys win the war and the others go away

Kiril
09-06-2008, 04:26 PM
Bill,

Not what I'm looking for (disclaimer noted). Your reply applies more towards fungal/bacterial problems rather than insect. Furthermore, scales are sap suckers.

What I am looking for is specific information pertaining to how CT controls scales, or for that matter, any insect (boring, chewing, sucking, etc...). An answer that suggests control without defining specifically how it controls is not an answer. For example, if CT can be used to control scale, what specific fungi/bacteria exerts that control? Merely spraying CT on something and by chance happen to observe a population reduction means nothing. There are way too many other variables that could be responsible for the observed affect.

phasthound
09-06-2008, 04:51 PM
Kiril,

I know Ohio State published a study (which I can't find now) that compared ACT brewed with thermicompost and vermicompost. They documented less aphids & mites on plants treated with either compost compared to the control. I think the vermicompost tea had the best results.

phasthound
09-06-2008, 05:04 PM
This isn't it, but it does show disease suppression.

BioControl 49: 305–313, 2004.
© 2004 Kluwer Academic Publishers. Printed in the Netherlands.
Biological treatments to control bacterial canker of
greenhouse tomatoes
Raj UTKHEDE∗ and Carol KOCH
Pacific Agri-Food Research Centre, Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada, P.O. Box 1000,
Agassiz, BC, V0M 1A0 Canada
∗Author for correspondence; e-mail: utkheder@agr.gc.ca
Received 1 May 2002; accepted in revised form 21 May 2003

This study showed that the preventative sprays of vermicompostea has
the potential to control infection by C. michiganensis subsp. michiganensis
on tomato plants. Desease reduction was recorded at 63%.
In the mung bean adventitious root induction test, which
monitors the growth and differentiation it was shown that vermicompost contains growth promoting antagonistic bacteria that have a significant positive response on plants. The presence of growth regulators in earthworm-worked waste has been reported by Tomati et al.

ICT Bill
09-06-2008, 05:05 PM
Bill,

Not what I'm looking for (disclaimer noted). Your reply applies more towards fungal/bacterial problems rather than insect. Furthermore, scales are sap suckers.

What I am looking for is specific information pertaining to how CT controls scales, or for that matter, any insect (boring, chewing, sucking, etc...). An answer that suggests control without defining specifically how it controls is not an answer. For example, if CT can be used to control scale, what specific fungi/bacteria exerts that control? Merely spraying CT on something and by chance happen to observe a population reduction means nothing. There are way too many other variables that could be responsible for the observed affect.

The variables in brewed or extracted compost teas are too variable, that is why I started this company to be able to have knowns in the mix. SFI or any other company can test for fungi and bacteria but they can't tell you which one are there, often they can give you a general idea but no detail.

Humate, Fish and Kelp and almost anything else you add all come with their own colonies of whatever is in there, we however add knowns like BTI, BTK, sets of mycorrhizae (endo & ecto) 5 different types of trichoderma as well, So our product can make claims of effeciacy because of that, although we do not make a claim as a pesticide.

We also add things that we can then trigger, get the populations going in the soil and we can trigger enzyme production to target a certain pest. These are not beneficials but are put in the mix to get a certain reaction to a certain pest (you will see more of these next year) right now our NPP not only produces a SAR response in plants as a foliar but also turns on enzyme production in the soil in bacillus subtillis (and some others) which in turn makes the soil lethal to grubs. It is a very safe and effective way to produce certain results

If you take 10 different brewers, 10 different results will be the result. Take the same 10 brewers and use 10 different compost sources and you will also have different results, I would have to say in every case that the end result will be better than doing nothing, some will have visual landscape results that are outstanding, I have seen it too many times to not know that compost tea, in general, are beneficial to the landscape (I personally somehow wiped out all of my hostas in one of my first brews).

Emperical data, we would have to ask Elaine Ingham she has databases that go back 15 years from 7 different continents.

phasthound
09-06-2008, 05:11 PM
I'm still unable to come up with the study, but here is the site http://www.biosci.ohio-state.edu/~soilecol/index.html
with contact info. Dr Arancon did the research I'm thinking of. I saw his presentation in Florida last winter. It wasn't published yet. His phone # is listed on the site.

DeepGreenLawn
09-06-2008, 06:25 PM
OK, so as you all probably know... I don't make my own Tea... YET...

But I do feel that I am beginning to understand it to a point. SO this would be my answer...

CT's even from the same compost supplier, especially vermicompost has so many different organisms that if the tea did have an effect on insects it would seem to be next to impossible to find that one out of the bunch. Also... would it not be safe to say that, similar to what Bill was saying, the tea could produce a reaction with the plant/tree that causes it to put off a certain chemical that then reflects or repairs damage caused by certain insects?

Again, I don't brew my own tea, and I have a limited knowledge of how it all works. But I have come to understand some of the ways it works with plants AND that each tea in its own has so many variables to it I don't see how you can keep up. Doesn't the same batch constantly change with time and different variables as it is?

phasthound
09-06-2008, 06:50 PM
OK, so as you all probably know... I don't make my own Tea... YET...

But I do feel that I am beginning to understand it to a point. SO this would be my answer...

CT's even from the same compost supplier, especially vermicompost has so many different organisms that if the tea did have an effect on insects it would seem to be next to impossible to find that one out of the bunch. Also... would it not be safe to say that, similar to what Bill was saying, the tea could produce a reaction with the plant/tree that causes it to put off a certain chemical that then reflects or repairs damage caused by certain insects?

Again, I don't brew my own tea, and I have a limited knowledge of how it all works. But I have come to understand some of the ways it works with plants AND that each tea in its own has so many variables to it I don't see how you can keep up. Doesn't the same batch constantly change with time and different variables as it is?

Soil ecology and soil biological interactions are extremely complex subjects. Better minds than mine are spending their lives trying to understand it. OTHO, it's as simple as you want it to be.

My advise is to get yourself a 5 gal KIS brewer & start brewing some tea & experiment with some plants, join the compost tea forum http://groups.yahoo.com/

Start doing & keep on talking. :)

treegal1
09-06-2008, 08:34 PM
Bull,
You should contact Peter Wilde http://www.bostontreepreservation.com/

good luck with that he has sold out to the big chem co's and has a hard time saying anything. he has been doing the tea on trees thing in boston for some time now and has his bio controls worked out pretty well. he has a pretty hefty consult fee, but it may be worth it to get a hold of him.

treegal1
09-06-2008, 08:42 PM
also the under standing that we are going on is that there has to be some sort of pathogen that affects a scale, i dont think that they are impervious to everything, so hit them with the most diversity that you can and hit or miss hope fore the best. most of teh time after we see the scales and have hit it with the tea we come back and spot treat for the scales with fish oil. bill has a guy that will get you going with the fish oil thing for 30K or you can brew your own patis, also namdoc..........

Kiril
09-06-2008, 09:03 PM
so hit them with the most diversity that you can and hit or miss hope fore the best.

And there is the crux of the matter. You can't reasonably bill clients for hit or miss.

treegal1
09-06-2008, 09:28 PM
And there is the crux of the matter. You can't reasonably bill clients for hit or miss.
why not the chem guys do it all the time, look at the efficacy of some products out there, they are all hit and miss to a % ?

also try and search bacterial insecticides, bt is one that I can think of, and the things that the little guys exude from there body's, is it not true that several, chemical controls are just bact. poo??? its to bad that after they are found some one patents them as there own and takes it away from the whole world.

search bacterial insecticides

BostonBull
09-06-2008, 09:50 PM
Bull,
You should contact Peter Wilde http://www.bostontreepreservation.com/

We know Peter well. I like to get multiple opinions/views/facts is all.

BostonBull
09-06-2008, 09:54 PM
good luck with that he has sold out to the big chem co's

Is this TRUE!?

DeepGreenLawn
09-06-2008, 10:08 PM
why not the chem guys do it all the time,

Ain't that the truth... I was informed the other day that I have been losing all kinds of money. Apparently TGCL and other big guys, and maybe everyone, I don't know anymore, don't cover ALL weeds with their basic program... basically they only cover the broadleaf. You have crabgrass? That is an extra charge... OH, and if they treat it and it doesn't die... they charge you AGAIN to treat it again.

Now this pisses me off... I may be the odd one of the bunch with the fact that I actually want to provide what I think is a fair service, but come on! The customers are paying you, or they think they are paying you, to fertilize the lawn and get rid of, keep out, the weeds. Not just this one and that one over there... ALL OF THEM. If was using TGCL and this happened to me... I don't know what I would do...

Like I said... maybe I am on my own with this one but that just seems wrong!

Kiril
09-07-2008, 03:09 AM
why not the chem guys do it all the time, look at the efficacy of some products out there, they are all hit and miss to a % ?

I don't give a chit what the chem guys do, or anyone else does for that matter. All I care about (with regard to this issue) is what I do and my reputation. If someone asks me to deal with an insect infestation, I better produce results or else how can I expect them to pay for a recommendation that has no results.

also try and search bacterial insecticides, bt is one that I can think of, and the things that the little guys exude from there body's, is it not true that several, chemical controls are just bact. poo??? its to bad that after they are found some one patents them as there own and takes it away from the whole world.

TG, I'm looking for support for your claim that CT can control scales, not a discussion on the commercialization of bacteria poo, or how CT might be effective against certain fungal or bacterial pests. I already stated I am aware of IPM methods of insect control. In the event you haven't figured it out yet, I have problems with unsubstantiated claims. Also, the spray and pray mentality is no better than the chem guys and doesn't work for me. I refuse to spend my time and money (or clients money) on something that "might" work on anything other than my own property.

treegal1
09-07-2008, 08:58 AM
@ KIril, so you under stand all the organisms in the soil and have cataloged them? so by effective ypo mean 99% or better?? is all of your trearments perfect? and if so how do you get "perfect tea and compost" that's is cataloged and has been figured out to the point that there is no more guess work or hit and miss???the reference to bacterial insecticides come from the fact that some, let me give an example, overreacting, is more or less the waste from a naturally occurring soil born organism, some thing that conceivably comes from the tea, and would illicit a control on scales???

this seems kind of petty, almost like you are trying to pull a fast one on me, in one line you say ok ipm me and the next one its got to be 100% rock solid or your not doing good. all i said is to try some tea and it may help.

treegal1
09-07-2008, 09:01 AM
the HWA is an easy target to get at, the scales are easy to control with a good tea and some fish oils,Diplodia, use a DMI fungicide, oh wow look at the time its consult 30.LOLOL. the HWA can be controlled with electricity, oh is that sound or, any ways its a high amplitude thing a ma jobberyou will also see here that its not just tea alone I said, will HELP, but is not the end of it all.

Kiril
09-07-2008, 11:27 AM
you will also see here that its not just tea alone I said, will HELP, but is not the end of it all.

And I specifically asked how it helps, and you have yet to provide an answer. :nono: Perhaps it is nothing more than the fish oil that controls the scales. If this is the case, then simply state fish oil.

You see TG, this is the point of the matter. If a client asks me how CT controls scales what do I say?

Well, I don't really know. It may or may not work, but if you give me $100 bucks we can try. Oh, and if it doesn't work I won't be refunding your money .... sorry you lost your prized tree ::slinks away feeling like a thief and a fool::

We both have equal distaste for chems, but the fact of the matter is, chems have verifiable, reproducible results in the field. CT on the other hand is nothing more than a shot in the dark when it comes to above ground uses (and even to a large extent below ground), which in my books means if your going to use it without knowing how and if it will even work, then it should be done free of charge.

BTW, who said anything about 99% or 100%. I specifically said "control" not eradicate. More times than not your answer to any problem is spray the living heck out of it with CT. I simply asked you to provide some supporting evidence for the claim you made with respect to scales. If you don't have any, then simply say so and stop making claims about CT that can't be substantiated. Reason being, by making these claims, you set people up for failure when it doesn't work, and in the long run this only hurts the organic community.

You know, I don't even care if you can provide me with a specific bacteria or fungi (which I know you can't), how about (as you suggested) just an ingredient to add to CT (not fish oil) that WILL help to control scales, and that control is reproducible across all batches of CT, regardless of where or who makes it. And what about application frequency, dilution ratio, etc.... These are all perfectly valid questions .... do you have answers?

Also, it is not impossible to catalog bacteria\fungi\etc.., it is just you, and most everyone else, simply do not have the money to do it.

With regard to your HWA control, interesting if it works, but is it practical? I have 5000 trees infested with HWA, where do you suggest I begin to control the outbreak? Certainly you don't expect me to go to every tree with your thing a ma jobber?

I'm not trying to give you a hard time here TG, but if your going to make claims that CT or anything else will work for problems in the landscape, be prepared to provide substantiating documentation or clearly provide the standard CT "shot in the dark" disclaimer.

Kiril
09-07-2008, 11:37 AM
Kiril,

I know Ohio State published a study (which I can't find now) that compared ACT brewed with thermicompost and vermicompost. They documented less aphids & mites on plants treated with either compost compared to the control. I think the vermicompost tea had the best results.

I checked around for OSU publications with regard to CT and insect control, couldn't find anything so far. Thanks for the heads up though, I'll keep an eye on that site.

ICT Bill
09-07-2008, 11:48 AM
Is this TRUE!?

Peter is still the same questioning guy he has always been and an excellent character as well
Bayer picked up his line of injectables and they sell it under the bayer name, it has him in a good place to do more research and the funding to complete it.

I believe what TG meant is that he can't be quite as freewheeling as his has been in the past because of his commitment to one very large customer

It does speak well to the products that he and his company produces, Bayer is no small company and I am sure that thy did their research before picking up the line

Kiril
09-07-2008, 12:21 PM
I checked around for OSU publications with regard to CT and insect control, couldn't find anything so far. Thanks for the heads up though, I'll keep an eye on that site.

Just found this Barry. Perhaps this is the study you were referring to?

http://www.biosci.ohio-state.edu/~soilecol/Earthworms%20and%20Vermiculture%20Publications/Suppression%20of%20two%20spotted%20spider%20mite,%20mealy%20bug.pdf

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T5T-4JXPRYT-1&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=46a5b06fcd926103a63da064aa6b8877

treegal1
09-07-2008, 12:53 PM
http://www.nhm.ac.uk/hosted_sites/acarology/saas/e-library/pdf000200/a000169.pdf

http://www.ars.usda.gov/research/publications/publications.htm?seq_no_115=225084

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11354619

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/picrender.fcgi?artid=441284&blobtype=pdf

http://www.inhs.uiuc.edu/research/biocontrol/pathogens/typesofpathogens/bacterial.html


ITS not that I cant find any thing its just maybe I was A little busy DOING something......

there is many more out there, not a lot specific to tea, but you can cross reference to SBM's with a little work

treegal1
09-07-2008, 01:01 PM
OH @ kiril, maybe a truck mounted unit, and just drive through the woods killing them as you go.

also there is no reason to be disrespectful with me about this, I stand by my words and my work, if you want to do a study about the consistent results I get handling scales with tea alone thats great, if not then just dont start to pick a fight, maybe you have slipped away from a dead tree under your watch, we do a refund and try as best we can to find out why, what , when , and how. but on online we only try and help the respectful, as it is not my job to do any thing in this setting.

phasthound
09-07-2008, 01:02 PM
Just found this Barry. Perhaps this is the study you were referring to?

http://www.biosci.ohio-state.edu/~soilecol/Earthworms%20and%20Vermiculture%20Publications/Suppression%20of%20two%20spotted%20spider%20mite,%20mealy%20bug.pdf

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T5T-4JXPRYT-1&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=46a5b06fcd926103a63da064aa6b8877

Yup, I knew I could count on your searching skills.

Kiril
09-07-2008, 01:56 PM
OH @ kiril, maybe a truck mounted unit, and just drive through the woods killing them as you go.

also there is no reason to be disrespectful with me about this, I stand by my words and my work, if you want to do a study about the consistent results I get handling scales with tea alone thats great, if not then just dont start to pick a fight, maybe you have slipped away from a dead tree under your watch, we do a refund and try as best we can to find out why, what , when , and how. but on online we only try and help the respectful, as it is not my job to do any thing in this setting.

No one is being disrespectful here TG or picking a fight, and certainly not even close to what you have unleashed on some people that contribute to this forum. I am merely looking for supporting evidence for your claims so I can realistically consider and recommend alternative pest control methods using CT. If you want to take that as disrespectful, so be it.

I ask you, if I make a batch of CT to control a scale infestation, and it fails, do I tell my clients to call you, because you said it would work? No, of course not, that would be silly. As far as the client is concerned, they see an organic\biological attempt to control a insect infestation fail, which makes the person making that attempt look foolish, and as a result the client will most likely begin to lose faith in not only the person, but also in the overall organic pest management practice.

There are over 7300 species of scales, 517 of which have been reported in my state. Are there entomogenous fungi that can be used to control scales? Perhaps (http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/IN436), and if so, what species of fungi is required and what species of scale does it control? If there is a fungi that can be used to control a particular scale infestation, how do I get that specific fungi it into my CT, and what population density is required for effective control? Given the growth requirements of fungi, would it even work in a region will no rainfall and very low humidity? How often will I need to apply it given regional environmental constraints to see any measurable control?

Bottom line, if you had an answer to my original question it would have been forthcoming....no? Instead we dance around the original question with discussion about biological control methods that have nothing to do with scales.

NattyLawn
09-07-2008, 04:12 PM
Ain't that the truth... I was informed the other day that I have been losing all kinds of money. Apparently TGCL and other big guys, and maybe everyone, I don't know anymore, don't cover ALL weeds with their basic program... basically they only cover the broadleaf. You have crabgrass? That is an extra charge... OH, and if they treat it and it doesn't die... they charge you AGAIN to treat it again.

Now this pisses me off... I may be the odd one of the bunch with the fact that I actually want to provide what I think is a fair service, but come on! The customers are paying you, or they think they are paying you, to fertilize the lawn and get rid of, keep out, the weeds. Not just this one and that one over there... ALL OF THEM. If was using TGCL and this happened to me... I don't know what I would do...

Like I said... maybe I am on my own with this one but that just seems wrong!

Side topic:

Does the chemical you use to treat Nutsedge and Crabgrass cost the same as conventional 2-4 D broadleaf weed control? For cool season turf, look at the cost of Drive 75 or Sedgehammer before you make blanket statements about what other companies do. These herbicides are expensive and if you want to lose money treating weeds, then you lose money. You can make a decent amount of money adding a nutsedge service, but you're suggesting we all go spot treat for free because you guaranteed a weed free lawn on a weed that's very hard to control.

growingdeeprootsorganicly
09-07-2008, 05:31 PM
i look at it this way, if you just do apps, profit margins are tighter, but if you do full service, your customer expects a certain level of quality, if it's a new lawn and full of many weeds then it's a judgment call on whether to charge more for this or that if you think you might get burnt by them dropping you after app or two or you think they won't be good payers,
but making a customer happy and not thinking your trying to con them goes a long way in up selling other services, instead of nit picking the little sh@t


if you look at the cost to make a cocktail of chems for weeds for a yard it's really not that much compared to the money your going to make off of them in the long run. if a lawn does have alot hard to kill perennial weeds then you have to tell the customer that it might need more frequent apps and charge your fee for the extra visits

once lawn is under control your cost are lower, do a good job and you can expect them to keep you and tell others about your service,

each yard is different and charge accordingly to cover your a@s, charge what it takes to make them happy and still make money, like i said doing apps you have to make all the money you can but if you offer other services too there other places to make profit

i have seen so many ways to bill for things, it really comes down to how you want to run your biz, and where you are going to make profit or bite the bullet to make customer happy and paying, think long term relationship between you and customers though it take time to find the right ones

it might be a good idea to have a contract that states like organic lawns said that if they cut you loose early you can recoup extra services rendered if you billing equal monthly payments

DeepGreenLawn
09-07-2008, 05:52 PM
it might be a good idea to have a contract that states like organic lawns said that if they cut you loose early you can recoup extra services rendered if you billing equal monthly payments

That is a given. If I get a lawn that is ONLY weeds or close to it then I will charge more for that first treatment or two. But like growingdeep said, if it is an established lawn and a few weeds show up... what this one customer had that told me they charged him $50, then no, I will not charge them extra, I will typically just bend over and hand pull the few weeds there are... Time? ehh, I timed myself the other day... I think I MAYBE spent 4 minutes cleaning up a border between the sidewalk and the road? But then again I didn't have the proper solution to spray all the weeds that were present so I saved that time and money of traveling to pull by hand. I can spend 4 min on a lawn here and there... especially if it keeps the customer happy...

Smallaxe
09-07-2008, 06:35 PM
That is a given. If I get a lawn that is ONLY weeds or close to it then I will charge more for that first treatment or two. But like growingdeep said, if it is an established lawn and a few weeds show up... what this one customer had that told me they charged him $50, then no, I will not charge them extra, I will typically just bend over and hand pull the few weeds there are... Time? ehh, I timed myself the other day... I think I MAYBE spent 4 minutes cleaning up a border between the sidewalk and the road? But then again I didn't have the proper solution to spray all the weeds that were present so I saved that time and money of traveling to pull by hand. I can spend 4 min on a lawn here and there... especially if it keeps the customer happy...

GDRO, has pointed out the mixing of apples and oranges. CL is not going to pull a weed, They are not going to 'not spray' areas that don't need it, not going to spray stone borders when a dandylion pops up. They are going to come in and do their thing, 6 -8 times a year now, no matter what is needed or when, according to a set plan of regulation and rules.

They make their rules, so their hired help does not try to think independantly of the plan. For that reason alone you do not want to compete with CL. Just eliminate the need for them. Thinking independantly is still, "a good thing", yes?

Smallaxe
09-08-2008, 04:36 AM
SOD or sudden oak decline is not what I was referring to in the context of the plugging up of xylems and phloems.

The plugging up of tubes is a common disease to many woody plants and that word starts with a 'T', I think. Sorry for the mixup.

PHS
09-08-2008, 11:14 AM
As far as the client is concerned, they see an organic\biological attempt to control a insect infestation fail, which makes the person making that attempt look foolish, and as a result the client will most likely begin to lose faith in not only the person, but also in the overall organic pest management practice.

Kiril, I agree 100%. There are many legitimately proven organic insect and disease controls available that can be used with good repeatable results. Using one cure-all cocktail that fixes every possible landscape problem both below ground and above smacks of 'snake-oil' and I don't think that's good for the organic industry as a whole.

If CT's and sort of thing work as a foliar spray for insect and disease control it will be very easy to set up a trial and provide actual results rather than just anecdotal evidence. For three years I worked as a sub for a landscaper who hired me to do canopy sprays of 'Ceres' and various CT concoctions he was brewing. He wasn't a joker off the street either. He was well connected with the local ag community and all the rest of it. I sprayed hundreds if not thousands of plants and trees with zero evidence of any kind of insect or disease control. The kicker of it was that there were plenty of legitimate organic control options (oil, copper, etc) that we could've used but he was so convinced of all the "good guys eating bad guys" analogies that he couldn't see that none of this was working.

Although, even as a skeptic, when we were doing soil drenches and putting the soil born organisms back where they grow naturally, over time I could see some beneficial results from the treatments. So that's my point of all this, use things where they actually work and don't use them where they don't.

The plugging up of tubes is a common disease to many woody plants and that word starts with a 'T', I think. Sorry for the mixup.

Yes absolutely that's true. But in regard to your question about unplugging the heartwood vascular system, that's not really an issue because plugged or not, it doesn't "connect" to anything any longer. As the tree gets bigger, xylem that was supplying a leaf with nutrients, ten years later is buried under a couple inches of wood and the newly formed xylem is conducting nutrients in its place. The tree doesn't have any way to "reroute" old plumbing, it can only build new plumbing.

Smallaxe
09-08-2008, 11:48 AM
Now I am going to have to look it up. The tubes get plugged with some parasitic microbes while they are actively used. If the tree/shrub survives the year, a new cambium layer is built and the battle continues.

We realise that the tubes are not going to be plugged after becoming unused. Their next step is to simply rot.

Smallaxe
09-08-2008, 01:00 PM
Now I am going to have to look it up...

Well I couldn't find my 'T' word but phloem necrosis seems to be the new term.
I have been refering to phloem necrosis, as a general concept throughout all vascular plants and whether or not CT injections could do anything to turn and infection around.

I found the same old song and dance - "No Cure" -

ICT Bill
09-08-2008, 01:49 PM
Often these things turn up because of other stresses. A healthy tree can more often than not, repel most pathogens. It seems it comes from leafhoppers that suck leaves and infect the tree.

I have an article somewhere that shows that the compost teas in the study increase leaf thickness which deters things like leafhoppers because of the thickining of the cell wall, they go somewhere else

As far as treating an infected tree, I have no info on that and it seems some of the best arborist in the industry don't either

here is a good article from the U of IL http://www.ipm.uiuc.edu/diseases/series600/rpd660/index.html

Smallaxe
09-08-2008, 03:47 PM
If the CT can help repel leafhoppers - perhaps mites as well? With thicker healthier leaves?
This idea would make a whole lot more sense than fertilizer.

phasthound
09-08-2008, 04:48 PM
Well I couldn't find my 'T' word but phloem necrosis seems to be the new term.
I have been refering to phloem necrosis, as a general concept throughout all vascular plants and whether or not CT injections could do anything to turn and infection around.

I found the same old song and dance - "No Cure" -

You're not talking about Bacterial Leaf Scorch are you?

http://www.usna.usda.gov/Research/BacterialLeafScorch.html

treegal1
09-09-2008, 08:47 AM
Trunk injections with antibiotics have been shown to suppress symptoms

Kiril
09-09-2008, 10:12 AM
Well I couldn't find my 'T' word but phloem necrosis seems to be the new term.
I have been refering to phloem necrosis, as a general concept throughout all vascular plants and whether or not CT injections could do anything to turn and infection around.

I found the same old song and dance - "No Cure" -

Perhaps vascular wilt diseases?

http://www.biology.ed.ac.uk/research/groups/jdeacon/microbes/panama.htm

Smallaxe
09-09-2008, 10:48 AM
It is all these things. There was a name for the phenomena of the plugging up of the vascular system. Whether it was SOD, Dutch Elm or Banana tree wilt, there was a name for it to generally cover this process.
Antways, thanks for trying. :)