Is this cheating???

[turf hokie]

I have noticed that the 2 big national companies around here are applying lime as their fall round? I saw 2 turcks and that is all they had with them. What are your thoughts on this?

I think I now know why they are 1/2 my price.
Them 10k lawn w/ 50/bs dolomitic lime = $5.00
How can you compete with that?

[DeepGreenLawn]

You tell them to shove it up their a$$ when their customers come to you for service. I am thinking about changing my program next year to all inclusive.

The thing that finally got me was that they don't even cover crabgrass, then they come out and spray it with round up and it is still not garunteed. Now... I personally take care of all weeds, the idea for me is that after the first year the weeds should be a minimal problem in the first place.

All inclusive program:

Fertilizer
Weed control (ALL weeds)
Disease treatment (figure two treatments to be safe)
Aeration (not sure if I want to include this or maybe give them an option)

No seed and no insecticides.

I originally thought about giving them 10% off for signing up but then I read something about offering a better 'niche' service and I should charge more for doing so. On top of all of this I am also going to give the best service they have ever seen. If they call, we will be there if not that day the next business day.

I have brought this to quite a few people that currently use both mine and others service and they ALL said they would be willing to pay more to have all the services and needs be taken care of with out having to bother them. I think the main problem is that with every little issue they feel like they are being nickle and dimed to death. Low morale, but... do the all inclusive and I am then set up to do whatever is needed to get give them the best looking lawn possible and not have to get their approval for much needed services. They get a great looking lawn, great service, and pay one payment with no added costs and no added worries. Until fall for overseeding or any insects that may come in.

Any thoughts?

[LushGreenLawn]

DeepGreen,

I don't understand. Are they paying you to put down all organic products, but then going to another company to get traditional products applied on top of that? How are they using another company besides yours?

Also, why in an all organic program are you not offering seeding with your aerating? I would assume that with not putting down any weed control, you would want to seed to build density to help out-compete weeds.

[LushGreenLawn]

How do you know that the lime they were putting down was not an up sell? Don't we all apply lime at some point.

[DeepGreenLawn]

DeepGreen,

I don't understand. Are they paying you to put down all organic products, but then going to another company to get traditional products applied on top of that? How are they using another company besides yours?

Also, why in an all organic program are you not offering seeding with your aerating? I would assume that with not putting down any weed control, you would want to seed to build density to help out-compete weeds.

I am "organic-based". My main push is organics but I offer synthetic as well. Then with the organics I use synthetic chems when they are needed. I am not the organic only kind, I believe chems have their place. Each side has their benefits and draw backs so we use the best of both worlds. The majority being organics. The only time I use synthetic chems is in new renovations where the weeds are the majority of whats growing and pre-ms.

You have to remember that I am down south... it is not the norm to have a cool-season grass like fescue here. It is about 95% warm season grasses and 5% cool. The only time people generally use fescue, basically the only cool-season grass used here, is in really shady areas and in older neighborhoods. Bermuda is our number one turf here. So... with that said, seed is not a needed product with the majority of my customers. The warm-season guys get their one aeration in the spring and the cool-season guys get it in the fall. They just have to pay a little more for the seed at that time.

[ted putnam]

I have noticed that the 2 big national companies around here are applying lime as their fall round? I saw 2 turcks and that is all they had with them. What are your thoughts on this?

I think I now know why they are 1/2 my price.
Them 10k lawn w/ 50/bs dolomitic lime = $5.00
How can you compete with that?

I think Lime is very necessary here as our soils are naturally acidic. I spread Lime on lawns here from Thanksgiving to Christmas on old,existing customers lawns. That being said, I think it is a scam for the big companies to offer 30-50% off the first app and show up with a bag of Lime. I consider that scamming and almost "bait and switch". I don't do Lime this time of year because the lawns are growing and people want them to remain relatively green until first Frost. Lime at this point in time, in this area is not going to help me achieve that. For me, Lime is applied after Frost has sent the bermudas into dormancy.

[LushGreenLawn]

I am "organic-based". My main push is organics but I offer synthetic as well. Then with the organics I use synthetic chems when they are needed. I am not the organic only kind, I believe chems have their place. Each side has their benefits and draw backs so we use the best of both worlds. The majority being organics. The only time I use synthetic chems is in new renovations where the weeds are the majority of whats growing and pre-ms.

You have to remember that I am down south... it is not the norm to have a cool-season grass like fescue here. It is about 95% warm season grasses and 5% cool. The only time people generally use fescue, basically the only cool-season grass used here, is in really shady areas and in older neighborhoods. Bermuda is our number one turf here. So... with that said, seed is not a needed product with the majority of my customers. The warm-season guys get their one aeration in the spring and the cool-season guys get it in the fall. They just have to pay a little more for the seed at that time.


I get what your saying, but in your post you said some of your customers use your service, as well as another service, and would be willing to pay more to get everything from one company. My question was, what is it that the "other" service is doing that you are not? ...just curious

[DeepGreenLawn]

OH, sorry, that was suppose to refer to the previous company they were using before I came along. They're OUT A HERE! And most of my cutomers remind me that their lawn has never looked better...

[junior091273]

We use a Lesco Lime/Fert for our last round here every year.

We start second week of October.

Results are great.

[teeca]

i dont see it as a scam if its something thats needed and benifical to the turf/soil. why would it be?? personly here in central indiana i dont need lime apps. as the seasons change i treek my apps as needed. this year we have had rain almost every week up untill the last two. what i have done is change my r4 app to a weed/iron spray because the wet weather has caused a break out of weeds. i dont need to apply fert because the grass is growing to fast (like in the spring), so i throw in iron and weed control, and yes that is cheaper then a fert app. but the customers still gets serviced.

[whoopassonthebluegrass]

I'lll be running coarse grain sand for 4 of my 6 apps next year. I'm even upselling it a bit by "adding" topdressing to my package. This alone will save me thousands.

[RABBITMAN11]

Hey teeca what is your company name?

[LushGreenLawn]

Teeca, what iron product are you using? The products I have looked at have been more expensive than fert.

[teeca]

Teeca, what iron product are you using? The products I have looked at have been more expensive than fert.

Feromec AC 12-0-0 or the lesco equivt. to that.

[teeca]

Hey teeca what is your company name?

sorry, not on a public forum. nothing to hide, but prefer not to mention it.

[whoopassonthebluegrass]

sorry, not on a public forum. nothing to hide, but prefer not to mention it.

Haha. I'll bet it's cuz you're organic and have trucks that drive around labeled "Poo Pushers".

J/K.

[RABBITMAN11]

No problem, just wondering if I know you!

[teeca]

Haha. I'll bet it's cuz you're organic and have trucks that drive around labeled "Poo Pushers".

J/K.

not in this life time! i dont go for the organics, tried them on my lawn for a year and got better results with the synth. ferts. and the organics cost me 3 times as much. as for the poo pusher... the only poo pusher that gets pushed, is mine when i fill up my f350 v10 @ $3.699 gal last night! :laugh:

[teeca]

No problem, just wondering if I know you!

i talked to you several times a few years ago about a PG carrier you had

[RABBITMAN11]

What side of town do you work on

[whoopassonthebluegrass]

not in this life time! i dont go for the organics, tried them on my lawn for a year and got better results with the synth. ferts. and the organics cost me 3 times as much. as for the poo pusher... the only poo pusher that gets pushed, is mine when i fill up my f350 v10 @ $3.699 gal last night! :laugh:

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

[cod8825]

Cheating is saying that you are going to do one thing but actually do another. For instance we stated are program but due to the increadibly wet conditions. We had an increadible large breakout of weeds on some properties. We switched are program to do another broadleaf application in July so they are getting serviced.

[whoopassonthebluegrass]

Cheating is saying that you are going to do one thing but actually do another.

Yeah. For now on I'm rewording my package: "up to 6 applications!!!"

[LawnTamer]

So, teeca, are you some kind of secret lawn service? Furtive lawns? That's a good name. Maybe you are a spy from the federal gov'ment, making sure we all actually use all that ammonium nitrate for lawns.... or worse, a spy from TGCL?

[turf hokie]

AH yes, I think whoop is the only one that understands me on this and boy that is scary.....

They are servicing all of their customers with lime...do you really think they ALL took the upsell? and if it is an upsell why are they doing it in Sept and not with the winter round when they can do a fert/lime combo like we do with our customers.

Yes all lawns around here need to have a maintenance lime applied.

But here is where I have a problem they are applying lime at 4-5 lbs per k as if it were fertilizer. How do I know b/c they serviced a lawn across the street from one of mine and we watched just to get an education. The guy put one bag of lime in the spreader pushed the 8-10 k lawn put one of their "refer a neighbor and get $30 off" signs and left.

I also spoke with one of my vendors who sells to them and they said that one of the branches did not order enough fert and instead of buying more, they opted to apply gypsum to the remaining customers on that round just so they could make an appearance.

How is this not cheating somebody somewhere somehow.

[teeca]

So, teeca, are you some kind of secret lawn service? Furtive lawns? That's a good name. Maybe you are a spy from the federal gov'ment, making sure we all actually use all that ammonium nitrate for lawns.... or worse, a spy from TGCL?

WTF is your problem? i'm entitled not to list my name on here, and no i'm not a secret lawn service, and no not from TG, i'm an indepentent.

rabbit, i work out of brownsburg/west indy

[whoopassonthebluegrass]

AH yes, I think whoop is the only one that understands me on this and boy that is scary.....

Is that a put down? :laugh:

Even if it WERE part of their game plan, it still brings to the table what I consider to be THE GREATEST challenge we applicators face: helping the customer understand that we're not all apples to apples. That the guy who's half OUR price is that price for a good reason...

When is this Walmart nation gonna wake up and realize YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR?

[whoopassonthebluegrass]

WTF is your problem? i'm entitled not to list my name on here, and no i'm not a secret lawn service, and no not from TG, i'm an indepentent.

rabbit, i work out of brownsburg/west indy

WHOA, DUDE! That was tongue-in-cheek! Calm down.

[DeepGreenLawn]

When is this Walmart nation gonna wake up and realize YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR?

there is no telling... I gave that estimate to a customer, I was $25 more than TGCL was, who they were currently using, and their fescue lawn was about 75% weeds. No kidding. And they balked at my higher price? Go figure... they can keep their weed infested lawn... some people just don't want to think things through. :hammerhead:

[RABBITMAN11]

I do some work over there. Do you have accounts in carmel or north side? I might be interested in trading some accounts.

[teeca]

I do some work over there. Do you have accounts in carmel or north side? I might be interested in trading some accounts.

no, two years ago i dropped everything that wasn't within a 10min drive of me, in doing that my area has went to within about 5min. brownsburg/avon/raceway road area. i had a few in castleton/carmel, just didn't like being that far from home (single parent with 2 kids), the price of gas, and not being able to just drive by a property to inspect it.

[RABBITMAN11]

doesn't hurt to ask

[humble1]

I have noticed that the 2 big national companies around here are applying lime as their fall round? I saw 2 turcks and that is all they had with them. What are your thoughts on this?

I think I now know why they are 1/2 my price.
Them 10k lawn w/ 50/bs dolomitic lime = $5.00
How can you compete with that?

I do 6 rounds all equal price avg out for price, my 6th app is solucal.
I upsell grub, aeration & overseeding, mosquito, tick, ants, deep root feeding.

[tremor]

I have noticed that the 2 big national companies around here are applying lime as their fall round? I saw 2 turcks and that is all they had with them. What are your thoughts on this?

I think I now know why they are 1/2 my price.
Them 10k lawn w/ 50/bs dolomitic lime = $5.00
How can you compete with that?

If I was the consumer I'd feel cheated. The lawn analysis probably spells out 4 or 5 lawn Fertilizer treatments. Accepted industry standards call for NPK or at least N&K as "accepted fertilizers". Lime is...well...lime. Calcium carbonate without much else.

An educated consumer with a good mouth &/or even a lousy lawyer would have a field day with this in court.

Maybe it's time to start specifying annual pound of N on contracts. Arborists do this already to level the playing field for bidding. It also keeps the buyers from getting ripped.

See ANSI A-300 standards here:

http://www.treecareindustry.org/public/gov_standards_a300.htm

[whoopassonthebluegrass]

Maybe it's time to start specifying annual pound of N on contracts.

In self-defense, I'm gonna so "no way!" to this one. Because I also mow - and because everyone has irrigation here, the rate of fert I put down varies widely. Some crap-heads demand more than should be necessary, while others flourish with about half. If I were to universalize, it'd kick my butt. I actually peddle the fact that I customize my treatments for each yard, carrying everything with me I need to make any necessary modifications. Mind you, few need much different. But this leaves me free (guilt-free, even) to use more or less than whatever the status quo may be.

[tremor]

In self-defense, I'm gonna so "no way!" to this one. Because I also mow - and because everyone has irrigation here, the rate of fert I put down varies widely. Some crap-heads demand more than should be necessary, while others flourish with about half. If I were to universalize, it'd kick my butt. I actually peddle the fact that I customize my treatments for each yard, carrying everything with me I need to make any necessary modifications. Mind you, few need much different. But this leaves me free (guilt-free, even) to use more or less than whatever the status quo may be.

A range would be fine. But the number of applications should be spelled out & adhered to. Whether a lawn needs 5 apps at ONE pound N or 5 apps at ONE HALF pound N could easily be made case by case & should be (weather, grass & soil types, etc). There is no justification for selling 5 fertilizer applications then substituting lime for the last two.

The price of fuel has gone up right?

Airlines raise the ticket price per flight. They don't drop their NY to LA fares off in Chicago do they? Well that's what we're talking about.

Regardless if you fly first class or business, if you buy a ticket from NY to LA & the airline drops your butt in Chicago then the airline knows darn well they owe you some restitution.

[humble1]

Why is it dishonest to apply lime and call it an application, it is very acceptable, most guys do it up here we average the costs across the 5 or 6 apps, even though each round has different costs, the last two are the most profitable. When I apply a fungicide I sell it as a very expensive application even though there is no fert in it. Is this okay?

I also sell grub control as a seperate application even though it goes down with the fert. Why is this practice acceptable then?

[turf hokie]

It is dishonest. Plain and simple.

An upsell is an upsell, an addition to the contract is just that but a substitution that is not spelled out in the CONTRACT the customer signed is illegal.

We provide the number of applications and what is to be done with each application to each customer as required by law.

No where does it say that if things get tight or if we feel like it we will not apply a round of fertilizer but instead apply lime or gypsum.

What they are doing is cheating the customer, breaching a contract and continuing to be able to beat my prices because of it.

Their is nothing wrong with calling lime an application. We apply maintenance lime to many of our customers--AS PART OF THEIR PROGRAM-- We dont apply gypsum INSTEAD of a fall fertilizer nor do we apply ONLY lime with their winter fertilizer. We apply fall fertilizer as was agreed upon in the contract and apply fertilizer and lime as their winter round as was agreed upon in thier contract.

I too spread my pricing across the 5 -6 applications evenly and yes lime, fungicide, grub, chinch, tick can be an extra or an upsell. But it is specifically laid out as an extra.

What they are doing is subsituting a cheaper / different product in place of what the customer is expecting. That is not right.

[tremor]

Why is it dishonest to apply lime and call it an application, it is very acceptable, most guys do it up here we average the costs across the 5 or 6 apps, even though each round has different costs, the last two are the most profitable. When I apply a fungicide I sell it as a very expensive application even though there is no fert in it. Is this okay?

I also sell grub control as a seperate application even though it goes down with the fert. Why is this practice acceptable then?

Bryan knows why it is dishonest or he wouldn't have made this post. His conscience would know.

Remember which two companies he was asking about. In this market they are notorious for cutting corners already. Since they already by cheap & sell cheaper I think that some adherence to standards is not unrealistic.

States already have the responsibility & right to check & enforce fertilizer label analysis. If you bought a bag of 24-5-11 from me & it turned out being 20-0-5 would you feel cheated? Your State's Attorney General would think so too.

[turf hokie]

When I apply a fungicide I sell it as a very expensive application even though there is no fert in it. Is this okay?Yes, you sold them a fungicide not a fertilizer

I also sell grub control as a seperate application even though it goes down with the fert. Why is this practice acceptable then?Because the customer paid for the grub control and you applied it

.................

[ted putnam]

All I was saying in my post about it being dishonest is this. Yes, Lime is cheap. It is not just a filler. It is a money maker because of lower input price. It is a necessary part of a lawncare program, at least in this area. It is part of mine and I apply it after I have made much lower margins on applications throughout the year(especially the Spring pre-emergence and Summer Grassy weed control) All I was saying is it almost smacks of "bait and switch" when they use the 30-50% off first app to lure the customer in and show up with a couple bags of cheap Lime and probably don't spray a weed one. Do you really think they told that customer that was going to happen? I seriously doubt it. Meanwhile, they've injected extra cash flow into their company while being out very little and they won't be out any real money on inputs for another 6-7 weeks(at the next app**Full Price). Pretty slick and a little shady if you ask me.

[whoopassonthebluegrass]

This thread has turned into a pile of semantics and quibbles. The point is that: IF YOU'RE NOT DOING WHAT YOU PROMISED TO DO IT'S WRONG.

You can do ANYTHING YOU WANT in a package - even if it includes peeing in the yard... so long as THAT is what the customer hired you to do and agreed to.

[ted putnam]

Whatever it takes to get the customer to "sign on" and agree to our program. I mean it doesn't matter when we make truly honest strides toward getting the lawn into shape, as long as we do...eventually...right? It works for TG...for a while. I just can't stomach the thought of 45%+ turnover every year because they never hold up their end of the deal. Is it semantics and quibbling or ethical business practices and trust building between the LCO and customer from Day 1?

[whoopassonthebluegrass]

Is it semantics and quibbling or ethical business practices and trust building between the LCO and customer from Day 1?

So are you agreeing with me or disagreeing? :D

[ted putnam]

Actually...I was trying to piss you off! Is it working?...kidding you man:laugh::laugh: I see what you are saying...And that's great in an ideal world...although I don't think I'd be caught dead pissing on a lawn because I said I'd give their lawn extra fert, even though it is a cheap source of Urea.:laugh: Even though the way TG does things creates new business for us, it also creates an air of distrust for LCO's altogether by some consumers. That's the only point I'm trying to make.

[DeepGreenLawn]

I just can't stomach the thought of 45%+ turnover every year because they never hold up their end of the deal.

One day, I hope..., they will finally run out of customers... :clapping:

[whoopassonthebluegrass]

Actually...I was trying to piss you off! Is it working?...

After spending some time in the Political Forum, you're about as wild as a baby kitten. :D

Even though the way TG does things creates new business for us, it also creates an air of distrust for LCO's altogether by some consumers. That's the only point I'm trying to make.

You're right, of course. And then you enter into the Catch-22 of "How much money/time should I dedicate to any given client when loyalty is so hit or miss? I want to do whatever it takes... but I can't really afford to be burned."

[ted putnam]

You're right. Loyalty is very hit and miss...and I have been burned. Usually, while they're burning me, they're also burning a bridge. That's the nice thing about being a small time operation. I have a long memory. What goes around,comes around...eventually. I burned a couple back this year.:laugh:

[turf hokie]

[QUOTE=whoopassonthebluegrass;2503520]This thread has turned into a pile of semantics and quibbles. QUOTE]

Dude, I re-read all the posts and I saw nothing about religion.

[whoopassonthebluegrass]

Dude, I re-read all the posts and I saw nothing about religion.

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh: That's great!!!

[teeca]

i look at it like this... purdue says to apply 3-3.5# of N per year... i set my apps to that (maybe alittle higher) but what they recomend is that most of it be applied in the fall (or the cool season), so i adjust my apps to the weather/growing season at hand. i don't tell the customer how much will be applied in the spring/summer/fall??? they get whats needed, not only for the best of the turf, but whats best all'round.. knowbody wants to cut there grass 3times per week all summer long (and if you mow it or they have a company mowing it, or they do it themselves) the mowing guy will have it out for you.. trust me on that!!! and your always wrong. BALANCE!!!