reconditions :substitute round to increase profits

[ant]

Guys: As you know the fert prices went thought the roof. Most of the lawn care contractors are locked into a price with there clients per application. I cant call Mrs, lawn client and tell her because of the price of fuel and material price i need to increase your price per application . they will not except it and call chem lawn or lawn Dr.i need to come up with a alternative round in my program that will take the place of a seclude round. what i am trying to say is if round say 6 is a granular fert. and its costing me $1.80 per 1000(at $28.00 per bag) , i need to replace that with a round that has a cost of under $1.00 per 1000 sf.I ran this by one guy and he said "just spray a round of iron" ..I feel that is ripping off the client. with my 8 step program ,7 steps are fert. and weed control with a total yearly N of WAY under 5 pounds so there is room for a application as a substitute. I bought this off a lawn site sponcer ,but i think it would be a pain going back to the truck to fill.(my z spray only does 54,000 sf per tank) http://www.ictorganics.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/products.productDetail/productID/1/index.htm i was thinking on adding this in as a substitute application to regain some of my profits. if i go ahead and add this or something like it, my last application for the year will have to be a granular fert. for the last treatment.what do you think about this? what can you guys come up with as a substitute application? i can go granular or liquid. if i go liquid my sprayer is set up with 1/3 gal per 1000 sf.(z spray) i need to come up with a substitute application to keep my cost per 1000 down and just going out there and spraying iron I feel is cheating my clients.
OR is a iron application exceptionable?

[GreenAcresFertCo.]

I still have a good friend back at TG,.. the way they are doing it is IPM in the summer apps, pull up...no weeds, lawn is smoked or dormet, no app but still charge for it. More then likely they will jump out spot a couple weeds and call it good and throw the 38 dollar bill on the door knob. Curious to see how this works, hopefully it doesn't and there is a ton of new meat for the grinder.

[Runner]

That is basically what tru brown has always done all along. Another thing they are well known for doing is setting their spreader on 3, throwing a few prills - making sure to leave some on the driveway so they get noticed, and throw the bill on the door. A guy can get put of his truck with a spreader half full, and when he finishes a 1/2 acre lawn, still has about a half a hopper left. I saw a scotts lawn the other day, that I wanted to take a picture of. On the far corner of the yard out by the street, where the guy started his application, you could see the tracks where he cut the whole corner by FAR.

[FdLLawnMan]

That application of nitrogen is the most important on e of the year. I would never short the customer on that one. Te iron only stains the grass so doing it that time of year is useless. The iron should go on in the middle of the summer which give you the most bang for the buck. Reduce your nitrogen inputs in te summer and early spring.

[RigglePLC]

So reduce the nitrogen and add iron and micronutrient mix. Or maybe substitute lime for one round. We seldom get complaints about "not green enough" in the fall.

Does anybody make a lime plus fertilizer blend?

[DeepGreenLawn]

OR is a iron application exceptionable?

I feel that it may be exceptable in certain conditions. We are currently in a drought and most people are not allowed to water their lawns other than litteraly by hand with a garden hose for 30 min a day. Obviously you can't water your lawn, let alone properly, with those kind of restrictions. SO, during the hottest months this year, rather than putting down N and adding a lot of stress to the lawn like everyone else, I brought out the Fe for a treatment, kept the lawn nice and green, kept the customer happy, and I am now not chasing diseases all over...

OH CRAP! That's lost money right? I guess I may be too honest for this line of work...

In those situations I feel there is no problem putting down some Fe and saving the added stresses of the grass. Heavy metals? It will take a lot more than what I put down for that to be an issue I believe... like I said, this is only during the hottest times of the year with NO rain and NO watering. Other than that... I stick to the normal program. Outside of that, that is bad business in my eyes.

[sclawndr]

So reduce the nitrogen and add iron and micronutrient mix. Or maybe substitute lime for one round. We seldom get complaints about "not green enough" in the fall.

Does anybody make a lime plus fertilizer blend?

Yes, Sol-U-Cal and PhysioCal are lime products that have a little bit of N and iron in them. You get a greenup within 3 weeks or so if it gets watered in.

[phasthound]

Ant,
You may find that the results you see from ICT Organics Compost Tea are good enough to replace a couple of your granular fert applications. Several companies have done this & have been able to reduce costs while providing their clients with good results.

[humble1]

I am going to offer a micro application next year, and I was thinking of adding a spring lime application for new accounts.

As long as I am putting down enough N for the year Im good.

The other thing next year is getting the upsells out early enough.

[tremor]

Is there any peer reviewed data been published on bottled compost tea?

With all due respect for paid sponsors, the published data I've seen hasn't been favorable. In all fairness, the data is mostly collected on Aerobic Compost Tea (ACT) which does not store or bottle well. ACT is a fungal tea that dies without aeration.

Since turf evolved on anaerobic soils it does best when treated with rhizobacteria.

Perhaps ICT is a bacterial inoculant?

Either way, Anthony needs to review his lawns & his program to determine where he stands on annual Nitrogen. Compost Tea is not going to increase turf yield or color as much as even a half pound of N.

[humble1]

Is there any peer reviewed data been published on bottled compost tea?

With all due respect for paid sponsors, the published data I've seen hasn't been favorable. In all fairness, the data is mostly collected on Aerobic Compost Tea (ACT) which does not store or bottle well. ACT is a fungal tea that dies without aeration.

Since turf evolved on anaerobic soils it does best when treated with rhizobacteria.

Perhaps ICT is a bacterial inoculant?

Either way, Anthony needs to review his lawns & his program to determine where he stands on annual Nitrogen. Compost Tea is not going to increase turf yield or color as much as even a half pound of N.


You cant bottle teas, plus testing accuratly is impossible because anything good will die when you ship to a lab, so it leaves the question was it dead before you pulled out of the tank? Also rhizobacteria is great if you want to grow clover it needs a legume to work. I do a lot of organics, but you cant just bottle up some stuff and call it good, you still need to check levels w/ a test and adjust ph calcium levels etc. Like you say I too assume its a bacterial product w/ humic acid, and sea kelp etc. I think he also puts mychorrazae in it, which is useless, because the spores wont germinate with out DIRECT contact with the root extuates. I think called it a tea is misleading at best.

[phasthound]

Is there any peer reviewed data been published on bottled compost tea?

With all due respect for paid sponsors, the published data I've seen hasn't been favorable. In all fairness, the data is mostly collected on Aerobic Compost Tea (ACT) which does not store or bottle well. ACT is a fungal tea that dies without aeration.

Since turf evolved on anaerobic soils it does best when treated with rhizobacteria.

Perhaps ICT is a bacterial inoculant?

Either way, Anthony needs to review his lawns & his program to determine where he stands on annual Nitrogen. Compost Tea is not going to increase turf yield or color as much as even a half pound of N.

If Actively Aerated Compost Tea (AACT) is properly made (and it's not that hard to do) it will provide very good results for all kinds of turf, tree & shrub, and agriculture. The are plenty of peer reviewed research and field trials to back this up. There are also studies that have been done with teas that were not made properly that provided poor results. The same is true regarding synthetic applications, if they are not applied properly they will not perform well.

AACT can be brewed to favor bacteria and/or fungal growth in the tea, with fungal being more difficult to grow than bacteria. A high bacteria count favors annuals, bacteria/fungal balance favors grasses, high fungal favors trees.

Since turf evolved on anaerobic soils it does best when treated with rhizobacteria.
I'm sure you meant to say aerobic soils?

ICT products are bacterial & fungal inoculants that are formulated for different application purposes. They contain rhizobacteria among other microbes. I'll let Bill go into more depth if he chooses to.

Both AACT & inoculants work extremely well with organic matter to provide great lawns while reducing NPK inputs. This really is science folks. Microbiology has made great strides during the last decade in discovering more about how important a part soil microbiology plays.

OK, flame away. I can take it. :waving:

[phasthound]

Rhizobacteria are not limited to legumes. The term refers to many species that reside in the rhizosphere.

The USDA states there their are about 75,000 different species of microbes in a single gram of good soil, with the highest concentration in the rhizosphere.

http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/AR/archive/oct98/rhizo1098.htm
http://www.plantmanagementnetwork.org/pub/cm/review/2004/rhizobacteria/
http://www.pnas.org/content/92/10/4197.abstract

[garydale]

I am going with Amonium Sulfate this fallinlieu 46-0-0 to try and save a buck.

We added a surcharge to all our non prepaid accounts on R-3. It amounted to about $1.00 per K spread over the last three applications for the season.

Three hundred accounts +/- and only had four calls. No cancels yet and the calls basicly were because I didn't warm them it was coming.

[tremor]

Since turf evolved on anaerobic soils it does best when treated with rhizobacteria.
I'm sure you meant to say aerobic soils?


OK, flame away. I can take it. :waving:

No. I said what I meant. Turf is not ingigenous to an aerobic fluffy soil as we find on a forest floor. Turf is used to anaerobic conditions (favors bacteria) as I said.

I've never seen a paper that favored ACT for turf. There' no shortage of people making empty claims but published data is scant.

No matter. We're talking bacteria.

An associate of mine asked me specifically about this 1-2-3 product.
http://www.ictorganics.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/products.productDetail/productID/1/index.htm

I've looked around & for the life of me I can't find a list of which bacteria this product contains.

[phasthound]

Turf is used to anaerobic conditions (favors bacteria) as I said.

Tremor, please document this for me. I would like to read more about this.

[phasthound]

An associate of mine asked me specifically about this 1-2-3 product.
http://www.ictorganics.com/index.cfm...ID/1/index.htm

I've looked around & for the life of me I can't find a list of which bacteria this product contains.

This should do it.

[LushGreenLawn]

Guys: As you know the fert prices went thought the roof. Most of the lawn care contractors are locked into a price with there clients per application. I cant call Mrs, lawn client and tell her because of the price of fuel and material price i need to increase your price per application . they will not except it and call chem lawn or lawn Dr.i need to come up with a alternative round in my program that will take the place of a seclude round. what i am trying to say is if round say 6 is a granular fert. and its costing me $1.80 per 1000(at $28.00 per bag) , i need to replace that with a round that has a cost of under $1.00 per 1000 sf.I ran this by one guy and he said "just spray a round of iron" ..I feel that is ripping off the client. with my 8 step program ,7 steps are fert. and weed control with a total yearly N of WAY under 5 pounds so there is room for a application as a substitute. I bought this off a lawn site sponcer ,but i think it would be a pain going back to the truck to fill.(my z spray only does 54,000 sf per tank) http://www.ictorganics.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/products.productDetail/productID/1/index.htm i was thinking on adding this in as a substitute application to regain some of my profits. if i go ahead and add this or something like it, my last application for the year will have to be a granular fert. for the last treatment.what do you think about this? what can you guys come up with as a substitute application? i can go granular or liquid. if i go liquid my sprayer is set up with 1/3 gal per 1000 sf.(z spray) i need to come up with a substitute application to keep my cost per 1000 down and just going out there and spraying iron I feel is cheating my clients.
OR is a iron application exceptionable?


I looked into the ICT, but it needs to be applied with at least a gallon per 1000 sq. Ft. Thats why I didn't buy it, I can't spray it with my Ride-On.

[tremor]

An associate of mine asked me specifically about this 1-2-3 product.
http://www.ictorganics.com/index.cfm...ID/1/index.htm

I've looked around & for the life of me I can't find a list of which bacteria this product contains.

This should do it.

Barry,

This is different product. It looks good but it's not the 1-2-3.

[phasthound]

Barry,

This is different product. It looks good but it's not the 1-2-3.

I just double checked the labels, that is the correct one. I had to read it under a magnifying lens. My eyes aren't what they used to be. :cool: It lists the combined ingredients for #2 and #3. #2 contains the inoculum & #3 contains the food source.

[DeepGreenLawn]

#1 is just a dechlorinator...

[tremor]

#1 is just a dechlorinator...

# 2 & 3 don't appeard to be bacterial inoculants either?

[DeepGreenLawn]

I know that #1 is a decholrinator, I believe that #2 is the CT, and #3 is food for the good guys...

I am going off memory... his link is right there at the bottom of the page. ICT Organics.

[ICT Bill]

Barry,

This is different product. It looks good but it's not the 1-2-3.

Tremor, if you read the label it states that it is several times

[phasthound]

# 2 & 3 don't appeard to be bacterial inoculants either?

Tremor,

Here is a quote from Material fact sheet from Cornell regarding the first listed bacteria on ICT label.
http://www.nysaes.cornell.edu/pp/resourceguide/mfs/01bacillus_subtilis.php

B. subtilis bacteria produce a class of lipopeptide antibiotics including iturins. Iturins help B. subtilis bacteria out-compete other microorganisms by either killing them or reducing their growth rate (CPL 2002). Iturins can also have direct fungicidal activity on pathogens

[ICT Bill]

Guys: As you know the fert prices went thought the roof. Most of the lawn care contractors are locked into a price with there clients per application. I cant call Mrs, lawn client and tell her because of the price of fuel and material price i need to increase your price per application . they will not except it and call chem lawn or lawn Dr.i need to come up with a alternative round in my program that will take the place of a seclude round. what i am trying to say is if round say 6 is a granular fert. and its costing me $1.80 per 1000(at $28.00 per bag) , i need to replace that with a round that has a cost of under $1.00 per 1000 sf.I ran this by one guy and he said "just spray a round of iron" ..I feel that is ripping off the client. with my 8 step program ,7 steps are fert. and weed control with a total yearly N of WAY under 5 pounds so there is room for a application as a substitute. I bought this off a lawn site sponcer ,but i think it would be a pain going back to the truck to fill.(my z spray only does 54,000 sf per tank) http://www.ictorganics.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/products.productDetail/productID/1/index.htm i was thinking on adding this in as a substitute application to regain some of my profits. if i go ahead and add this or something like it, my last application for the year will have to be a granular fert. for the last treatment.what do you think about this?

This exact application is being used by several national lawn firm as we speak, we have some very happy customers out there.

The first application of the year is typically a weed and feed application because that is what your customers expect a great stand of grass with little to no weeds, we can't help with the weed part, the program moves to our 1-2-3 Instant Compost Tea with an astrick on the final application of the year before dormancy. The end if the year application is typically watching your sites and seeing what may be needed, this also the time where a lot of folks do their renovation work

Our product has a stated shelf life of 1 year, it will actually last 18 to 24 months, it is also registered as a fertilizer in most states, in some states it is registered as a fertilizer and a soil amendment at the same time. We had to register #2 compost tea as a soil amendment and #3 accelerator as a fertilizer

The microscopic mycorrhizae actually get down into the soil profile very easily, we do recommend 2 gallons per 1000 as an application rate you can go much lower, i.e. permagreen or Zspray, you will get a nice green up but as a foliar you may strand the mycorrhizae on the leaf surface instead of the soil profile.

You have to remember that all of these microbes are dormant or in spore form they can last 100 years waiting for the right environment to procreate.

Mycorrhizae have a certain life span if they have not made a root association, I have asked this question to some of the best mycologists out there. "how long do mycorrhizae last in the soil without a root association, 10 hours, 10 days, 10 weeks, 10 years?" the answer I get is "yes" meaning they really don't know and certain environments are different than others, too many variables

We do add some free ranging nitrogen fixer in the mix as well, with grass clipping providing 25 to 40% of the needed nitrogen for turf and our free ranging guys providing another 20 to 30%, you can cut your inputs by half at least

but I ramble, the answer to Ant is "yes"

[phasthound]

Turf is used to anaerobic conditions (favors bacteria)

Anaerobic means without air (where "air" is generally used to mean oxygen), as opposed to aerobic. I do not believe turf can be grown in anaerobic soil conditions.

[phasthound]

And here's a description of the second bacteria listed in ICT Turf.

Bacillus licheniformis Strain SB3086 is a naturally occurring bacterium that is used on ornamental plants and ornamental turf to prevent and treat many fungal diseases. No harm to humans or the environment is expected when B. licheniformis Strain SB3086 is used according to label directions. http://epa.gov/pesticides/biopesticides/ingredients/factsheets/factsheet_006492.htm

[LushGreenLawn]

Bill,

I had thought that based on our discussion before that spraying ICT through a ride on would make it ineffective. The fact that I can spray it with my PG makes it much more attractive to me. I would like to go ahead and order a case to experiment with.

I have a question though, if I tank mix it with an herbicide, one of the run of the mill amiane or ester based 2,4d products, will it harm the beneficial bacteria and make it ineffective? The round I would consider replacing if I like it also involves a blanket spray for weeds.

[DeepGreenLawn]

why spray weeds that don't exist? I always felt this was a waste of product...

[LushGreenLawn]

Deep Green, did I mention anywhere in my post that weeds don't exist? Why would I blanket spray a lawn that did not have lots of weeds?

[ICT Bill]

Deep Green, did I mention anywhere in my post that weeds don't exist? Why would I blanket spray a lawn that did not have lots of weeds?

and the fact of the matter is that you have no idea what has blown in over the winter on your sites. weeds are the most often call that lawn and landscape companies get......" you just sent us a bill and we still have weeds" have you heard that once or twice

We will have a Pre-M in the spring ( liquid corn gluten meal, actually it is just the part that does the Pre-M part, 1.5% nitrogen) that can be tank mixed with our product, 1 quart treats roughly 1400 sq ft

Many herbicides are very corrosive and don't work well with our organic fertlizer. It depends..... is the best answer I can give

Lush, we are getting very good to great results with the ride on sprayers, excellent results for fungal issues with the NPP, they give great coverage at just the right rate

[DeepGreenLawn]

Deep Green, did I mention anywhere in my post that weeds don't exist? Why would I blanket spray a lawn that did not have lots of weeds?

My bad... I took that as though you had it mixed in a tank... I forgot that you were using a perma ride on deal. I just went straight to the 200 gal rig like I have and figured you would use a batch for the day... put the herbicide in there and then your stuck spraying even weed free lawns...

Just a misunderstanding... nothing personal...

[LushGreenLawn]

Its All Good. Bill, I'm glad you corrected me. I had written your product off because I thought that it would not work from my PG. I'm going to oder a case to play with this fall, to see where I can work it into my program next year.

[humble1]

This exact application is being used by several national lawn firm as we speak, we have some very happy customers out there.

The first application of the year is typically a weed and feed application because that is what your customers expect a great stand of grass with little to no weeds, we can't help with the weed part, the program moves to our 1-2-3 Instant Compost Tea with an astrick on the final application of the year before dormancy. The end if the year application is typically watching your sites and seeing what may be needed, this also the time where a lot of folks do their renovation work

Our product has a stated shelf life of 1 year, it will actually last 18 to 24 months, it is also registered as a fertilizer in most states, in some states it is registered as a fertilizer and a soil amendment at the same time. We had to register #2 compost tea as a soil amendment and #3 accelerator as a fertilizer

The microscopic mycorrhizae actually get down into the soil profile very easily, we do recommend 2 gallons per 1000 as an application rate you can go much lower, i.e. permagreen or Zspray, you will get a nice green up but as a foliar you may strand the mycorrhizae on the leaf surface instead of the soil profile.

You have to remember that all of these microbes are dormant or in spore form they can last 100 years waiting for the right environment to procreate.

Mycorrhizae have a certain life span if they have not made a root association, I have asked this question to some of the best mycologists out there. "how long do mycorrhizae last in the soil without a root association, 10 hours, 10 days, 10 weeks, 10 years?" the answer I get is "yes" meaning they really don't know and certain environments are different than others, too many variables

We do add some free ranging nitrogen fixer in the mix as well, with grass clipping providing 25 to 40% of the needed nitrogen for turf and our free ranging guys providing another 20 to 30%, you can cut your inputs by half at least

but I ramble, the answer to Ant is "yes"

I would have to say you are wrong on the mychorrazae being able to "get down to the roots" this is a false claim on your part. Forgive me on the spelling- I spoke with Dr Michael Amathicus or something close to the last name 2 years ago. He is one of the pioneers in Mychorrazae research and development. Mychorrazae does lose efficacy and ability to germinate after year 1, it absolutly has to have contact with root extuates to germinate. The mychorrazae has a symbiotic relationship with the root of the plant, so sorry you are very wrong. Now if you plug aerate then spray it as I do you get kick ass results, but surface app wont push it down, sorry but you are wrong.

[NattyLawn]

I would have to say you are wrong on the mychorrazae being able to "get down to the roots" this is a false claim on your part. Forgive me on the spelling- I spoke with Dr Michael Amathicus or something close to the last name 2 years ago. He is one of the pioneers in Mychorrazae research and development. Mychorrazae does lose efficacy and ability to germinate after year 1, it absolutly has to have contact with root extuates to germinate. The mychorrazae has a symbiotic relationship with the root of the plant, so sorry you are very wrong. Now if you plug aerate then spray it as I do you get kick ass results, but surface app wont push it down, sorry but you are wrong.

I agree with that statement.

[phasthound]

I agree with that statement.

Yup, me too.

[ICT Bill]

I'll let Dr. Mike answer that one. I do agree with the statement that spraying/applying after coring is an excellent time to do it.

How does compost tea or compost over time get down into the soil? are you saying that the soil selects for one microbe over another? bacteria, fungi, archenea, etc can enter and live in the soil profile but this one special fungi can't?

why is it so special that it cannot enter the soil with a little water :confused: we are talking about microscopic fungi, seems to me if there is an opening or even a little porosity in the soil it would go down there with everything else. Are you saying that a beetle, worm, nematode that penetrates the soil would not carry this microscopic fungi with it, HUH???

[phasthound]

I'll let Dr. Mike answer that one. I do agree with the statement that spraying/applying after coring is an excellent time to do it.

How does compost tea or compost over time get down into the soil? are you saying that the soil selects for one microbe over another? bacteria, fungi, archenea, etc can enter and live in the soil profile but this one special fungi can't?

why is it so special that it cannot enter the soil with a little water :confused: we are talking about microscopic fungi, seems to me if there is an opening or even a little porosity in the soil it would go down there with everything else. Are you saying that a beetle, worm, nematode that penetrates the soil would not carry this microscopic fungi with it, HUH???

My apologies to Bill, I stand corrected. I know better to open my mouth before researching farther. There are so many things that we think are true but are not.

I haven't heard back from Dr Mike yet, but I did receive this from a microbiologist research scientist at Rutgers.


Dear Barry

It was good to meet you a few weeks (months) ago. I looked at the
website you steered me to and I think there is a bit of
mis-understanding here.

Mycorrhizal fungal spores do need to be in very close proximity of a
root to germinate. However, naturally in the soil these fungi produce
elongate hyphae (strands of cells joined end to end) which can be very
extensive (some types to a matter inches to feet, others hundreds of
feet) and these can be a source of inoculum for the root, when a root
intercepts these hyphae. For this to happen, the plants need to be
mycorrhizal or planted among plants that are already mycorrhizal.

In the case of applying a commercial mycorrhizal inoculum, especially
for grasses, the bulk of the inoculum is in the form of spores, which
are microscopic. Thus a surface application of the spores as a spray
and subsequent watering or rainfall will tend to wash the spores to
depth in the soil through natural channels and pores in the surface.
That way, mycorrhizae can get down to the roots, rather than growing
downwards as hyphae.

The person mentioned in one comment is Mike Ammaranthus, who is indeed
a great mycologist and who has published on mycorrhize.

Hope this helps

Regards
Dr. John Dighton

[phasthound]

Funny how things seem to happen at once.
I just got off the phone with a landscaper client of mine. He had laid sod two weeks ago & we had hoped to treat the bare soil with ICT before the sod when down, couldn't schedule it that way & made the surface application day after and irrigated.

He asked me today how long it took for that "myco stuff" to work, cause the builder had to pull back some sod today & "the roots were all fuzzy & feathery".

Success!! :clapping::clapping:

[americanlawn]

Hi Ant -- IMO there is no "miracle' application out there that will significantly save dollars. We never add a surcharge either. We wait until the next year to raise prices.

The most effective way to save money is to 1) increase production efficiency: by using a quality ride-on unit (Z-spray, T3000, etc), increase route density, and more efficient routing (some soft-wares offer this).

2) Use slow release products that last longer.

3) Upsell core aeration in the fall...it adds income, and this is the most effective method of improving soil conditions. IMO

4) Mowing is the key....try selling mowing service to customers. Too often homeowner mowing is poor at best. Low mowing/trimming negates what pre-emergent and post-emergent herbicides are designed to do. If you can't sell mowing, try your best to educate customers on proper mowing. Leave a university fact sheet,etc, and hope they read it.

My 2 cents worth. (no miracle treatment).


Guys: As you know the fert prices went thought the roof. Most of the lawn care contractors are locked into a price with there clients per application. I cant call Mrs, lawn client and tell her because of the price of fuel and material price i need to increase your price per application . they will not except it and call chem lawn or lawn Dr.i need to come up with a alternative round in my program that will take the place of a seclude round. what i am trying to say is if round say 6 is a granular fert. and its costing me $1.80 per 1000(at $28.00 per bag) , i need to replace that with a round that has a cost of under $1.00 per 1000 sf.I ran this by one guy and he said "just spray a round of iron" ..I feel that is ripping off the client. with my 8 step program ,7 steps are fert. and weed control with a total yearly N of WAY under 5 pounds so there is room for a application as a substitute. I bought this off a lawn site sponcer ,but i think it would be a pain going back to the truck to fill.(my z spray only does 54,000 sf per tank) http://www.ictorganics.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/products.productDetail/productID/1/index.htm i was thinking on adding this in as a substitute application to regain some of my profits. if i go ahead and add this or something like it, my last application for the year will have to be a granular fert. for the last treatment.what do you think about this? what can you guys come up with as a substitute application? i can go granular or liquid. if i go liquid my sprayer is set up with 1/3 gal per 1000 sf.(z spray) i need to come up with a substitute application to keep my cost per 1000 down and just going out there and spraying iron I feel is cheating my clients.
OR is a iron application exceptionable?

[phasthound]

I received this from Dr Mike Ammaranthus staff member:

Hello Barry,
Dr.Mike is in conference most of the day, so as your sales rep, this email was passed to me.

Thank you for letting us know about the conversation. It looks like you guys got it all figured out. I would agree with what Dr. John Dighton wrote that basically you are both correct. The spores will remain dormant until they come into close proximity of the roots. So if you apply it as a spray on, it would just remain dormant until water or rain washed it down in to the root zone where it can germinate. We do have clients who do and have applied over established grasses or hay/alfalfa fields in this manner with great success.

However, we do normally recommend when or if possible applying it directly with the seed, or after a cutting or aerification. These methods just help to ensure that the product has a better chance of getting the entire application into the root zone and that you get the even distribution you set out for. But one is not necessarily right or wrong.

The main objective is to get the spores into the root zone. So a client with Sandy soil, may have no problem getting great inoculation from spray on application, where someone with Clay soils may find aerification first, very helpful. You and your clients will know your soils and equipment best, as long as you make your focus be on what is the best method in each particular situation to get product into the root zone, you are headed in the right direction and should be successful. This reason is exactly why we produce it is so many different forms.

As far as viability goes, you are also correct that there are factors that affect this, but mycorrhizae in a dormant state are pretty hardy and stable organisms. For our products for example, we give them a 2 year shelf life. This means we will guarantee the # of spores listed on the bag for 2 years, and generally speaking they do start to decrease about 10% per year after. But again that part is not set in stone either, but a pretty safe approximation from the research we have done.

It’s great to see you guys so interested and educated on the subject. Take care and let us know if you need anything else.

Best Regards,
Tonya Gordon
Mycorrhizal Applications, Inc.
tonya@mycorrhizae.com

[phasthound]

Hi Ant -- IMO there is no "miracle' application out there that will significantly save dollars. We never add a surcharge either. We wait until the next year to raise prices.

The most effective way to save money is to 1) increase production efficiency: by using a quality ride-on unit (Z-spray, T3000, etc), increase route density, and more efficient routing (some soft-wares offer this).

2) Use slow release products that last longer.

3) Upsell core aeration in the fall...it adds income, and this is the most effective method of improving soil conditions. IMO

4) Mowing is the key....try selling mowing service to customers. Too often homeowner mowing is poor at best. Low mowing/trimming negates what pre-emergent and post-emergent herbicides are designed to do. If you can't sell mowing, try your best to educate customers on proper mowing. Leave a university fact sheet,etc, and hope they read it.

My 2 cents worth. (no miracle treatment).

Hi Larry,

Everything you say is true and makes great sense. And I agree there is no miracle treatment. There is however good science that provides us with new effective (and less expensive) methods to improve our services. Remember, 60 years ago synthetic fertilizers were consider miracles. :)

[americanlawn]

Barry -- does that mean I have to drive a Yugo? :laugh:

[phasthound]

Barry -- does that mean I have to drive a Yugo? :laugh:

Oh Gawd, there's no good science in that tincan. :)