The best pre-m

[DeepGreenLawn]

OK, I was told of a different pre-m, princep?, that the person thought would work well for controlling annual bluegrass here in GA.

SO, this leads me to ask what everyone feels is the best pre-m to use?

AND, being that we are in a drought and all, I am leaning toward more liquid than granular due to the lack of rain and better, faster results due to the liquid... similar to that of a liquid fert.

[ted putnam]

Princep(simazine) has pre-emergent and post emergent qualities. Problem is longevity on the pre-emerg. 30-60 days max. So, if you decide to use it for it's pre-emerg qualities, timing will mean everything. It is much cheaper than Pre-M or Prodiamine. There are tradeoffs for cost savings though.

[DeepGreenLawn]

yeah, when I was looking into it it basically showed needing two apps this fall... or you basically are taking a big risk of just throwing your money away. I think it is more risk than I prefer...

What pre-m do you like best?

[ted putnam]

I start with Pre-M, 3-way for the first half of my round and go to Princep, 3-way my second half. If f I beat the germination period (which for the most part I do) The lawns usually stay clean until Round 1. I also do Lime apps after Fall Pre-emerg. I do them just like a summer round. I spot spray anything I see at that time also. Just a little insurance that they are...and stay free of weeds. It works for me.

[RAlmaroad]

OK, I was told of a different pre-m, princep?, that the person thought would work well for controlling annual bluegrass here in GA.

SO, this leads me to ask what everyone feels is the best pre-m to use?

AND, being that we are in a drought and all, I am leaning toward more liquid than granular due to the lack of rain and better, faster results due to the liquid... similar to that of a liquid fert.

Before deciding on any pre-em, your first criteria should be "For What Turf"!
Princept as Ted pointed out is "Not" a true pre-emergent. It will get some of the seed hair roots as they begin to germinate, but will not stay on the surface to act as a pre-em. It will sink down to the roots and be taken up by some broadleaf. The "Zine" family works well in colder weather especially for the winters and the winter weed crop.
Since you're in GA, Is your Turf Bermuda, Zoysia, Centipede or St. Augustine?
Prodomine(Stonewall), Pendimethlin(Pre-em) and Dimension(Dithiopyr) work better with the cool season grasses from my experience. All of which are root pruners to some extent. Dimension is the least to affect the roots. I like "Gallery" (Isoxaben). It is a granular that is desolved in water. The aforementioned pre-emergents use granular fertilizer as a carrier.l Dimension comes in a liquid application form. The clorides in the potassium on most fertilizer used with the pre-emergent is toxic to centipede which causes it to yellow for a long time.
Lots of technical crap I know but useful when deciding on the appropriate pre-em.

[ted putnam]

Roy is correct. However, you can get Pre-M and Prodiamine in a liquid form, not just bonded to dry fert so they are still an option for a liquid app. My Fall and Spring pre-emerg apps are both liquid apps. I have not seen the prodiamine in a liquid form here in a while. It is a dry product that has to be weighed. I choose Pre-M because it has a broader spectrum of broadleaf control than the prodiamine. Each product has it's upsides and downsides. It's best to be informed as much as you can on all of them before making your decision.

[DeepGreenLawn]

thanks, I mainly have bermuda, some zoysia, and very few fescue (these ofcourse will not be treated this fall).

I will look into each...

With the lack of rain am I correct in liquid being the most effective at this time?

[gregory]

Dimension is pricey...pre-m is alot cheaper...

[ted putnam]

thanks, I mainly have bermuda, some zoysia, and very few fescue (these ofcourse will not be treated this fall).

I will look into each...

With the lack of rain am I correct in liquid being the most effective at this time?

In my opinion, all weed control apps including pre-emergent apps are better in liquid form. Others will disagree...

[DeepGreenLawn]

In my opinion, all weed control apps including pre-emergent apps are better in liquid form. Others will disagree...

sorry, I thought you said all apps including fert...

I like to agree with you there... I would like to know what others have to say about this...

[RAlmaroad]

In my opinion, all weed control apps including pre-emergent apps are better in liquid form. Others will disagree...

This is so true as the granular will hit and miss or clump up on the soil surface after it finally gets through the thatch or left over winter grass straw. Of course those never dormant places have almost got to use a liquid. I use liquid for everything in SC.

[quiet]

Dimension is the least to affect the roots.

I've been under the impression that prodiamine is less of a root pruner. Got any data?
Also prodiamine in split apps lasts a looong time in my experience. Split apps now and in December will last all year here.

Use simazine only on dormant bermuda!

[DeepGreenLawn]

Use simazine only on dormant bermuda!

thanks for the heads up...

[ted putnam]

I've been under the impression that prodiamine is less of a root pruner. Got any data?
Also prodiamine in split apps lasts a looong time in my experience. Split apps now and in December will last all year here.

Use simazine only on dormant bermuda!

I didn't do the split apps of Prodiamine but I did use the 1.25lb/acre rate this year and got acceptable(no better/worse than Pre-M) crabgrass control. Although we have had and extreme amount of rain this year. What I did notice was that I had more broadleaf weeds to contend with than when I had used Pre-M in the past. I will probably go back to using Pre-M this next Spring (and I really hate to) I generally do not spray simazine until after the first week of October and have done that for 18 yrs now with no problems. The Bermuda is not dormant here at that time, though it is "winding down." We don't generally get a Frost here that will send the Bermudas dormant until the 2nd week of Nov. If I waited until then, I will have missed my "window of opportunity. Just my experience.

[greendoctor]

Because of its dramatic effect on many emerged weeds and the fact that it does not last very long, I consider simazine and atrazine to be more of a postemergent herbicide with a limited residual. Quiet, if simazine is only to be used on dormant bermuda, I would never be able to use it at all. 1 lb of simazine, label rate of Image DG and 11/2 oz MSMA enables me to clean up some very weedy bermuda lawns without burning holes in them with RoundUp.
Prodiamine is allowed on newly sprigged bermuda turf at a reduced rate. That tells me it is less of a root pruner than the other DNA preemergents. However, I prefer simazine on newly sprigged or plugged warm season grasses. Given my 12 month growing season, I rather not keep a lawn on preemergents all year long. I rather grow the lawn vigorous and dense. There are not many weeds that come through zoysia or bermuda on 3/4 lb N per month and cut with a reel mower at 1/2 inch.

[DeepGreenLawn]

1 lb of simazine, label rate of Image DG and 11/2 oz MSMA enables me to clean up some very weedy bermuda lawns without burning holes in them with RoundUp.


you have found this formula to kill everything?

[greendoctor]

you have found this formula to kill everything?

This is what I use when a lawn is full of grassy weeds and sedges, which happens a lot here in Hawaii. I do add 2,4-D ester and Banvel if there are also broadleaf weeds. The hot mix is not to be used on lawns that are not irrigated or improperly fertilized. In fact, I do not service any lawns that do not have an automatic irrigation system. Simazine and Image are wasted unless there is adequate water to carry them to the root zone of the weeds.

[yardprospraying]

Use simazine only on dormant bermuda!

We use simazine and prodiamine on our first round, and simazine and p-meth on our last round (fall). The bermuda usually not completely dormant in the middle of Oct. when we do the fall treatment.

We have never had any problems applying simazine to healthy bermuda. Like Greendoc said, if the customer does not water, then simazine or image will not work properly.

BTW: Our lawns look so much better in the spring using the simazine/prodiamine mix, compared to just p-meth. I feel the p-meth can really slow the "green-up" because of its harsh effects on bermuda roots.

John..

[DeepGreenLawn]

Appreciate the heads up... I have had quite a few lawns that have given me fits and with my plans for next year this will help me clean it up faster and easier (hopefully) than trying to combat them like I have, which has been a do what I can and keep the customer happy. Next year will be so much better and easier... I can't wait...