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View Full Version : Starter fertilizer - is is necessary


dtally
09-09-2008, 06:09 PM
I am just wondering how may of you actually us a granular starter fertilizer. Really what is the benefit? CT seems to me like it would do the job, maybe even better. This maybe an explosive question, but as I was driving around today seeing customers and giving estimates, the question just came to mind. I felt who better to answer this question, than this information packed group.

treegal1
09-09-2008, 07:54 PM
all i hear is worm casts and some compost.....................

dtally
09-09-2008, 09:13 PM
What about alfalfa meal, what's your take on it for a nitrogen source

treegal1
09-09-2008, 09:20 PM
N for a new seedling??? thats not what i want in my bag.......

treegal1
09-09-2008, 09:37 PM
let me get this strait for one second, I will speculate some so correct me if I am wrong, the old sod died or went bad? so the new seed is going to live in a place that would not support mature grass??? lets skip over a few steps just for the sake of time. bad lawn, needs new seeds, fixed soil and tested, adjusted as needed, added seeds, seeds grew well in good soil................. help me out because we are going to plant a heap of grass at the farm(to be cut and resold as sod) and I dont want to get this wrong. the way i see starter fert is you are tying to fix a situation after the fact, maybe I am wrong, but it seems like the soil should be fixed and working BEFORE the seed hits the ground.

dtally
09-09-2008, 11:43 PM
Good point, we deal mainly with tall fescue, that normally needs some reseeding in the fall to correct for the summer die off. Fescue as you may know is a cool season grass and we are in the south. They call it the transition zone, I call it ... nothing is supposed to grow very well zone. It is a practice, I thought most every where, that when people reseed they put down a "starter fertilizer." I am just wondering why. I think it is over rated and just a sales gimmick to get people to buy fertilizer. Most people being (synthetic) lawn care operators, and some organic based companies as well.

Driving around today with an idle mind, this just came to thought.

growingdeeprootsorganicly
09-10-2008, 06:36 AM
starter fert a gimmick? not sure im following you, when you plant any seed there needs to be available nutrients present in some form, really important for poor soil synthetic systems and as tree points out in a organic system you need really nutrient rich soil conditions from cast and compost to meet it's needs, for turf grass seed the idea is to get the seed established as fast as possible ,

only you know the condition's of your lawns soils? have you soil tested? good OM content? is there enough p and k present to help establishment? other secondary and micro's present as well? if not and you cant dump alot of good cast and compost down. then maybe you can use alfalfa but some liquid kelp kelp/bone meal and sulfate of potash will be needed i would think? hit it with some good tea, ill go out on a limb and say use something like super thrive if you have it?humic/fulvic acids? good compost is king though! if you want to amke it easy go with a good synthetic fast release starter 10/20/10 or something? no one here can tell me synthetic starter doesn't work to establish seed fast, with out it you just don't get good establishment fast enough in poor soil. jmo

Smallaxe
09-10-2008, 09:24 AM
Starter ferts are called so because of high P. We should all know by now that there is plenty of P in most soils. The problem with P is that it is locked up in the soil and needs help by AM fungi and other microbes to become utilized.

Nutirient cycling of clippings will help turn rock P into OM P over time. Compost with overseeding should be adequate.

If it is not - There are other problems that need to be addressed. Figure out what is wrong with your soil that it cannot support grass.

Remember soil tests only show what is available in a particular solution , not what is actually available in a healthy soil when the plant sends out his order through root enzymes.

No one can say that starter fert isn't going to get seed off to a quick start. One could say however, that compost does BETTER short term and long term. What % of P is available in you synthetic blend? How long b4 more P needs to be added?

Why is it wrong to build a soil that releases P rather than stockpiling it? Add 3 lbs of P per k so that 1.75 lbs can be used while the other 1.25 lbs are added to the soil and chemically locked up with other things.

Synthetic lawns have been stockpiling for years and the ironic thing is - soil testing doesn't address that element of P. Out of site-out of mind.

ICT Bill
09-10-2008, 10:45 AM
As smallaxe said, look at the bag and you will notice higher P, once the seedling germinates and uses up the energy stored in the seed, it needs a little push to get the entire stand of seed to turn into a plant well.

Fetilizers melt into the top couple of inches and provide immediately available nutrients for the plant to get on with its growing business.

Nice fertile soil will give the grass a great place to grow but may be lacking some of the nutrients to get it going well, if any stress comes along like not watering or too hot it will be more affected by it.

the nutrient push from ferts allows you to seed and fugitaboutit. If you have nice soil then you can use 50 to 75% less IMO, the direction on the bag are like the direction on my dog's food, if I went by them I would be feeding 4 cans a day instead of one

You can use our tea or hydroseed product and get great germination rates, really through the roof, but the seed may need a little push if the conditions aren't right to get that great germination rate to turn into plants

Smallaxe
09-10-2008, 07:41 PM
I would think a good boost with CT might be a starter. If it has AM fungi especially. Additional compost for longevity and some sound soil ammendemts to take it into the next year.

Of course water correctly, then a sensible followup with - watering correctly. :)

muddstopper
09-10-2008, 07:51 PM
Starter ferts are called so because of high P. We should all know by now that there is plenty of P in most soils. The problem with P is that it is locked up in the soil and needs help by AM fungi and other microbes to become utilized.

Nutirient cycling of clippings will help turn rock P into OM P over time. Compost with overseeding should be adequate.

If it is not - There are other problems that need to be addressed. Figure out what is wrong with your soil that it cannot support grass.

Remember soil tests only show what is available in a particular solution , not what is actually available in a healthy soil when the plant sends out his order through root enzymes.

No one can say that starter fert isn't going to get seed off to a quick start. One could say however, that compost does BETTER short term and long term. What % of P is available in you synthetic blend? How long b4 more P needs to be added?

Why is it wrong to build a soil that releases P rather than stockpiling it? Add 3 lbs of P per k so that 1.75 lbs can be used while the other 1.25 lbs are added to the soil and chemically locked up with other things.

Synthetic lawns have been stockpiling for years and the ironic thing is - soil testing doesn't address that element of P. Out of site-out of mind.


I want to correct a couple of things Smallaxe said.
There isnt plaenty of P in most soils. P is derived from small sea organisims and is usually found in old seabeds. Low laying feilds that have had accumilated runoff from erosion over centries might also hold good P levels, but areas that have not been oceans at one time or other, just dont have a source for P deposits. In my area its not at all uncommon to find P levels as low as 9ppm in the soil, certainly not adequate levels.

Second, compost that is derived from grass clippings, wood chips and other crop residues, simply doesnt contain lots of P. Engineered compost usually have P, in the form of rock dust added to raise the P levels. Most P found in plants will be found in the seed where as the leaves are usually good sources of K. Even Manures such as cow poo will contain more K than P. Horse poo has realitively equal P/K content and hog manures more P than K. Further, compost that is derived from plants grown in P deficient soils will still be deficient in P. For this reason saying you will get adequate P by using compost isnt exactly accurate, altho certainly possible.

Am fungi is extremly efficient at scaveging P from P deficient soils, but science suggests that VM can benefit from raising P levels in P deficient soils. Of course you can overdo anything.

P is a anion nutrient with a tripple negative charge. Because of this strong charge it is usually bound up tightly because of the strong attraction to Cation, positive charged nutrients, in the soil. Based on studies done by the TVA, normal fertilizer sources of P, (super phosphate, tripple super phosphate, rock phoshate) can become bound up and unavailable to the plants in as little as 4 weeks in poor growing season and as little as 8 weeks in the best of growing conditions. This doesnt apply to Di-ammonium Phosphate which has been found to remain availabe for much longer periods of time. This can be attributed to the P beind adsorded by Strong cation nutrients in the soil. Calcium being the most likely cation because of its double positive charge. The resulting mineral would be tri-calcium phosphate.

As for soil testing not addressing the element of P in the soil. Most soil test recommendations express NPK and Ph in their most elemental results. NPK being considered the Primary nutrients.

Prolawnservice
09-10-2008, 08:04 PM
As for soil testing not addressing the element of P in the soil. Most soil test recommendations express NPK and Ph in their most elemental results. NPK being considered the Primary nutrients.

Its my belief (I could be wrong), that based on the extraction method when testing, your soil test could show P in abundance, however it is not available to the plant because it is locked up with calcium.

ICT Bill
09-10-2008, 08:09 PM
Mudd you are Da Man and bring up an important point, what works in your area may not work in mine, we used to be regional in scope and this forum and many like it have become almost global

It brings up things we would have never thought about before,,, SWEET

It makes us more fastidious (I always wanted to use that word in a sentence) in our ways to diagnose a problem

treegal1
09-10-2008, 08:25 PM
that is precisely why testing is paramount, we just blended some potting soil, and wanted large, wait copious amounts of p and K, so out comes the bone char dust and the wood ashes, along with some other secret ingredients, the test was out of this world, almost to much so we blended down with some sand and worm casts.


Mudd,:clapping::clapping::clapping:

Smallaxe
09-11-2008, 08:56 AM
Good to hear from you Mudd :) Thanks for addressing my post with with reasoned response.
It has always been my understanding that P is part of the composition of sedimentary rock, as well as degraded sedimentary rock, otherwise known as sand and gravel. I could be wrong about that or there may not be as much available as I thought. Something to research this winter I suppose.

Perhaps I could ask you to address one more point while you are here.

'The locked up P with tri-calcium phosphate et. al., is now a non-entity for the rest of eternity?' What can we do to encourage the natural degradation of all these locked up phosphate elements so that they too become available to plants?'

If we are adding 10 units of P and the plant uses 7 units and the other 3 units become tri-calcium phosphate or something similar in 4 to 8 weeks. we need to add 10 units more P. Then in 4-8 weeks we have 3 units more tri-calcium phosphate and company making 6 units of locked up P in 2 applications.
See what I mean? That is why a well reasoned response to my question is imortant to the discussion. Thanks.

ICT Bill
09-11-2008, 09:00 AM
Fungi especially mycorrhizae love to eat rock phosphate, they are literally enzyme factories that emulsify the rock and turn it into something they and the plant can use

Smallaxe
09-11-2008, 09:30 AM
Fungi especially mycorrhizae love to eat rock phosphate, they are literally enzyme factories that emulsify the rock and turn it into something they and the plant can use

Thanks Bill,

So what you are saying is fungi will utilize the 3 units in my little example above?
Is rock phosphate found in most sedimentary rock?

It has always been my belief that a good discussion board would eventually get to the bottom of an issue and have a resolution to a specific question.

I appreciate your input. :)

Kiril
09-11-2008, 09:47 AM
Some possible dissolved species of P followed by their charges. Don't forget interaction of charges species with clay/om complexes. Note, the first two negatively charged species are the forms adsorbed by plants. Also consider differences between labile and non-labile forms of P as well as the influence of pH on availability.

H2PO4(-)
HPO4(2-)

MgHPO4(0)
MnHPO4(0)
CaHPO4(0)

FeHPO4(+)
CaHPO4(+)

FeHPO4(2+)
AlH2PO4(2+)

SOAP (Soluble organic anions and polyanions)

Tim Wilson
09-11-2008, 10:23 AM
Better to use the correct strain of ectomycorrhizal spore with your seed and good compost. Note that current research has shown that moderate to high amounts of phosphorus (P) are detrimental to the development and function of mycorrhizal fungi. (can provide some citations if requsted; also mentioned in Loewenfel's book) Rock phosphate used in moderate amounts is a safe supply of P. Better yet make your thermophilic compost with added rock phosphate and some good quality clay powder if available (google Luebke & compost). I have yet to determine if this is applicable to vermicompost.

As you know, I am no lawn person but we seeded an area very successfully, even laying down the soil/compost mix, last year and it filled in very thick.

IMO NPK evaluations are NA.

ICT Bill
09-11-2008, 11:44 AM
Note that current research has shown that moderate to high amounts of phosphorus (P) are detrimental to the development and function of mycorrhizal fungi.

very true from all of the research I have seen. The fungi like crude forms of nutrients, we are doing some trials on that very thing right now for organic produce, using crude forms of NPK and micronutients to see the results

When the plant they associate with is fed plant available forms of nutrients the mycorrhizae go on welfare basically, they get a check and stay home, the plant signals no help is needed so the mycorrhizae are still are associated with the root they just don't provide the nutrition to the plant that they would when those plant available nutrients weren't there. It goes for nitrogen too, when present they just take a nap.

It is a variable that we are researching

Tim Wilson
09-11-2008, 01:16 PM
so the mycorrhizae are still are associated with the root they just don't provide the nutrition to the plant that they would when those plant available nutrients weren't there. It goes for nitrogen too, when present they just take a nap.


Some researchers indicate that the mycorrhiza (*modernists have dropped the 'e' - snort) is killed by the addition of P over a certain percentage be it organic or synthetic. My jury is still fighting over it.

Tim

*"there remains one interesting difference
between conferences held in North America and
Europe. North American conferences have been about
“mycorrhizae” while European and Australian conferences
have been about “mycorrhizas”, an observation
noted by Nicolson in 1967. A simple solution to end this
confusion might be to use “mycorrhiza” as both the singular and the plural, as many of us already have done
anyway.

Roger T. Koide · Barbara Mosse"

Smallaxe
09-11-2008, 05:41 PM
Better to use the correct strain of ectomycorrhizal spore with your seed and good compost. Note that current research has shown that moderate to high amounts of phosphorus (P) are detrimental to the development and function of mycorrhizal fungi. (can provide some citations if requsted; also mentioned in Loewenfel's book) Rock phosphate used in moderate amounts is a safe supply of P. Better yet make your thermophilic compost with added rock phosphate and some good quality clay powder if available (google Luebke & compost). I have yet to determine if this is applicable to vermicompost.

As you know, I am no lawn person but we seeded an area very successfully, even laying down the soil/compost mix, last year and it filled in very thick.

IMO NPK evaluations are NA.

No need for references on my behalf. I had heard that from various sources as well.
To my way of thinking, then if you innoculated your seed with AM fungi (fungusses?) spores it would seem counter productive to blast in a bunch of instant P for the seed to germinate in. If indeed "moderate to high amounts of P is detrimental to the development and function of mycorrhizal fungi", as you have stated.

I had basically come to the conclusion additional P was essentially unnecessary in most cases, so it is good to know that it may actually inhibit what we want most. Namely a strong population of AM fungusses.

You know that once linguists go down the path of Americanizing Greek words, "fungusses" is not far away. :laugh:

I googled a few of Kiril's molecules but didn't find any useful info on whether 'tri-calcium phosphate' can be broken down by the microherd of make P available to the plant once again.
Do you happen to know? Thanks Tim.

Prolawnservice
09-11-2008, 07:51 PM
I googled a few of Kiril's molecules but didn't find any useful info on whether 'tri-calcium phosphate' can be broken down by the microherd of make P available to the plant once again.
Do you happen to know? Thanks Tim.

That's what I want to know too! Also, if there is an abundance of complexed P will that effect the mycorrhiza as does the addition of available P?

treegal1
09-11-2008, 08:26 PM
Phosphate Metabolism and Cellular Regulation in Microorganisms???

also water treatment..........................

ICT Bill
09-11-2008, 11:43 PM
That's what I want to know too! Also, if there is an abundance of complexed P will that effect the mycorrhiza as does the addition of available P?

All of the resereach that I have read leans to mycorrhizae does not give much benefit to a plant with a lot of P near by. There are a lot of different myco's though, endo ecto and several others, they all work on different rules because they come from different environments

there are some, probably near smallaxe, that thrive in high P environments, why ?? because that is the environment that they have been in for quite some time.

Kiril
09-12-2008, 08:58 AM
http://www.extension.umn.edu/distribution/cropsystems/DC6795.html

Kiril
09-12-2008, 09:35 AM
I googled a few of Kiril's molecules but didn't find any useful info on whether 'tri-calcium phosphate' can be broken down by the microherd of make P available to the plant once again.

http://www.nzic.org.nz/ChemProcesses/soils/2D.pdf (source (http://www.nzic.org.nz/ChemProcesses/soils/))

http://www.fnca.mext.go.jp/bf/bfm/pdf/4_4_Phosphate_Solubilizers0403.pdf

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6TC7-3YS33Y9-D&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=b7067a6879b4e330a7eb47b8762e15a7

http://www.insinet.net/jasr/2008/592-598.pdf

http://www.sarep.ucdavis.edu/organic/complianceguide/organicguide.pdf

http://hrcak.srce.hr/file/26524

http://www.scienceworldjournal.com/article/view/2640/2050

http://www.omri.org/superphosphate.pdf

http://www.agnet.org/library/tb/174/tb174.pdf

http://www.fao.org/docrep/007/y5053e/y5053e0i.htm

http://www.umt.edu/geosciences/faculty/moore/G431/lectur25.htm

http://www.cprm.gov.br/pgagem/Manuscripts/abdelazizra.htm

http://www.rirdc.gov.au/reports/ORG/ua-49a.pdf

Smallaxe
09-12-2008, 09:36 AM
That's what I want to know too! Also, if there is an abundance of complexed P will that effect the mycorrhiza as does the addition of available P?

As I recall from last year's research it is only the available P that causes the AM fungi to slow growth. Though the mechanism that causes AM to slow down may actually be a trigger from the host plant.

The reason I say that is because it was discovered that plants put out enzymes to activate certain microbes to actively grow and do their thing. If 'their thing' is releasing Ca for exa., and the plant needs Ca, it will start feeding the bugs that do that.

So if there is plenty of P available the plant will give the AM a rest. I don't know how closely you followed JD's research project a few months ago, but the end result left an open question, "Do the wee beasties produce, transform, release NPK et.al. in non-plant soils?"

Without a lot of time to study it out - early indications are - They [Fungi, Bacterias, Archeas, etc.] are symbiotic in nature and although they do a little on their own they do a lot when in or near plants.
More research to do, but my guess is that the 3 units in my example can become available to plants eventually. If not there would be a lot of tri-calcium phosphates locked up in any soil that has recieved fert. apps. on a regular basis.

Just a hunch but I think the organic system could unlock P that has been building up in the soil from synthetic ferts for a long time to come. Seedlings need it to form roots and stems, but like Mudd said, there is very little in the blades of grass. So if the grass is recycled there is not even a little loss of P.

The original poster is quiet but I will go ahead and restate. I don't believe one really need a starter fert, at least not in the amounts recommended by the fert. salesman. :)

Smallaxe
09-12-2008, 09:49 AM
http://www.nzic.org.nz/ChemProcesses/soils/2D.pdf (source (http://www.nzic.org.nz/ChemProcesses/soils/))

http://www.fnca.mext.go.jp/bf/bfm/pdf/4_4_Phosphate_Solubilizers0403.pdf

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6TC7-3YS33Y9-D&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=b7067a6879b4e330a7eb47b8762e15a7

http://www.insinet.net/jasr/2008/592-598.pdf

http://www.sarep.ucdavis.edu/organic/complianceguide/organicguide.pdf

http://hrcak.srce.hr/file/26524

http://www.scienceworldjournal.com/article/view/2640/2050

http://www.omri.org/superphosphate.pdf

http://www.agnet.org/library/tb/174/tb174.pdf

http://www.fao.org/docrep/007/y5053e/y5053e0i.htm

http://www.umt.edu/geosciences/faculty/moore/G431/lectur25.htm

http://www.cprm.gov.br/pgagem/Manuscripts/abdelazizra.htm

http://www.rirdc.gov.au/reports/ORG/ua-49a.pdf

Thanks Kiril, I'll check through some of these. :)

tadhussey
09-12-2008, 01:00 PM
I'd use seaweed. There's been some studies linking seaweed to increased seed respiration and germination rates. Check out "Seaweed and Plant Growth" by T.L. Senn.

treegal1
09-12-2008, 01:32 PM
I'd use seaweed. There's been some studies linking seaweed to increased seed respiration and germination rates. Check out "Seaweed and Plant Growth" by T.L. Senn.ouch, you just spilled the secret ingredients LOLOL:laugh:

dtally
09-12-2008, 03:56 PM
The original poster is quiet but I will go ahead and restate. I don't believe one really need a starter fert, at least not in the amounts recommended by the fert. salesman. :)

I may a little shy and quiet sometimes, but it did take 4 pages to get back to the original question. However, that is why I just love this forum. There is never just one answer, it there were, then everybody would be in the organic lawn care business. I wonder just how much time the average LCO uses for research and development. I would bet it be less than sitting at the pub drinking a brew.

phasthound
09-12-2008, 04:50 PM
I may a little shy and quiet sometimes, but it did take 4 pages to get back to the original question. However, that is why I just love this forum. There is never just one answer, it there were, then everybody would be in the organic lawn care business. I wonder just how much time the average LCO uses for research and development. I would bet it be less than sitting at the pub drinking a brew.

You may be right about the average LCO, but there are many who put a great deal of time and effort into learning conventional lawn care. It's not easy to keep clients happy.

Smallaxe
09-12-2008, 11:05 PM
I may a little shy and quiet sometimes, but it did take 4 pages to get back to the original question. However, that is why I just love this forum. There is never just one answer, it there were, then everybody would be in the organic lawn care business. I wonder just how much time the average LCO uses for research and development. I would bet it be less than sitting at the pub drinking a brew.

HaHaHa... :laugh:

The average LCO isn't particularily interested dabbly into the soil sciences, microbiology or water management. We may not be PHDs on any particular subject, but I'd like to think that we take ideas seriously enough to think them through.

B4 I got involved with this forum I was pretty much 'Status Quo'. I enjoy the challenge , that maybe my thinking wasn't quite right. It has motivated me to the point, that I have turn several lawns into research projects. So far, So good. :)

I have decide to turn off the irrigation on one place because there is plenty of 'clay' topsoil to get it through the fall. Of course I will plug it and check on mowing day to be sure, but essentially, I would have normally let the irrigation flow, had it not been for the wakeup call provided by several folks on this site.

It wasn't 4 pages to get to your question. The answer was being discussed from post 1. Starter fert or no!?!?....

Your job is to figure out the conclusion.... Why is starter fert necessary?... what does Starter Fert. do?... Why does grass grow?... And what does it take for it to flourish in the world of competition?...

The cool thing is - next time you're sitting in the resident watering hole, listening to a comrade whining about the clientelle , you may have something more interesting on your mind. :)

twotone
09-13-2008, 05:38 AM
I use crushed moon rock dust on my lawns, they look out of this world.

growingdeeprootsorganicly
09-13-2008, 07:23 AM
twotone,

is that a new ict product?

Smallaxe
09-13-2008, 07:35 PM
http://www.extension.umn.edu/distribution/cropsystems/DC6795.html

"The active P pool is P in the solid phase which is relatively easily released to the soil solution, the water surrounding soil particles. As plants take up phosphate, the concentration of phosphate in solution is decreased and some phosphate from the active P pool is released. Because the solution P pool is very small, the active P pool is the main source of available P for crops. The ability of the active P pool to replenish the soil solution P pool in a soil is what makes a soil fertile with respect to phosphate. An acre of land may contain several pounds to a few hundred pounds of P in the active P pool. The active P pool will contain inorganic phosphate that is attached (or adsorbed) to small particles in the soil, phosphate that reacted with elements such as calcium or aluminum to form somewhat soluble solids, and organic P that is easily mineralized. Adsorbed phosphate ions are held on active sites on the surfaces of soil particles..."

They stop short of giving an indication as to HOW 'adsorbed' particles are "...relatively easily released...".
I'll keep looking. :)

Smallaxe
09-13-2008, 08:10 PM
[from search engine]

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B7GJ8-4DS325C-S&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=4b9cec507b2a42025ea349e9d8566945


"...This study indicates that all microbes inoculated together help in the uptake of tricalcium phosphate which is otherwise not used by the plants and their addition at 200 mg kg—1 of soil gave higher productivity to palmarosa plants. ..."

These are the microbes mentioned:

"...The interactive effects of phosphate solubilizing bacteria, N2 fixing bacteria and arbuscular mycorrhizal fungi (AMF) were studied in a low phosphate alkaline soil amended with tricalcium insoluble source of inorganic phosphate on the growth of an aromatic grass palmarosa (Cymbopogon martinii). The microbial inocula consisted of the AMfungus Glomus aggregatum, phosphate solubilizing rhizobacteria Bacillus polymyxa and N2 fixing bacteria Azospirillum brasilense. ..."

dtally,
Sit around and drink beer???... Well tonite it is wine. It helps me focus ...no moon rocks yet ...

muddstopper
09-13-2008, 10:37 PM
"The active P pool is P in the solid phase which is relatively easily released to the soil solution, the water surrounding soil particles. As plants take up phosphate, the concentration of phosphate in solution is decreased and some phosphate from the active P pool is released. Because the solution P pool is very small, the active P pool is the main source of available P for crops. The ability of the active P pool to replenish the soil solution P pool in a soil is what makes a soil fertile with respect to phosphate. An acre of land may contain several pounds to a few hundred pounds of P in the active P pool. The active P pool will contain inorganic phosphate that is attached (or adsorbed) to small particles in the soil, phosphate that reacted with elements such as calcium or aluminum to form somewhat soluble solids, and organic P that is easily mineralized. Adsorbed phosphate ions are held on active sites on the surfaces of soil particles..."

They stop short of giving an indication as to HOW 'adsorbed' particles are "...relatively easily released...".
I'll keep looking. :)

Hydrogen is what knocks off the adsorbed particles.

Smallaxe
09-14-2008, 08:37 AM
Here is a jackpot of a website!!!
1625 abstracts on microbiology in relation to macrobiology.

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/search/allsearch?mode=similararticles&DID=71005165&page=1

Conclusion:

Maybe its about time "Organic Lawn Care" took a step into the 21 Century and started getting the P used up that they have been stockpiling in their lawns for the past 50 years.

Corn, soy, and alfalfa meal are not "Organic' in any field I have seen.
Airplanes spray these large plots on a weekly basic. Diesel fuel is used to harvest and transport to processing where coal fueled electricity is used to process, bagged and shipped out to various and sundry locations.

That is not working with nature as much as it is replacing straight synthetic ferts with secondhand synthetic ferts. (only bulkier and more expensive) That sells to intelligent homeowners who made a lot of money by being smart. :laugh:

Why do we not want to recognize a valuable role in microbes???

treegal1
09-14-2008, 08:48 AM
Here is a jackpot of a website!!!
1625 abstracts on microbiology in relation to macrobiology.

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/search/allsearch?mode=similararticles&DID=71005165&page=1

Conclusion:

Maybe its about time "Organic Lawn Care" took a step into the 21 Century and started getting the P used up that they have been stockpiling in their lawns for the past 50 years.

Corn, soy, and alfalfa meal are not "Organic' in any field I have seen.
Airplanes spray these large plots on a weekly basic. Diesel fuel is used to harvest and transport to processing where coal fueled electricity is used to process, bagged and shipped out to various and sundry locations.

That is not working with nature as much as it is replacing straight synthetic ferts with secondhand synthetic ferts. (only bulkier and more expensive) That sells to intelligent homeowners who made a lot of money by being smart. :laugh:

Why do we not want to recognize a valuable role in microbes??? you are just preaching to the pastor!!! and the worst part is the carbon impact!!!!

get em! give em hell, take a shot at them for me, I will be no till hand farming today, its melon day.

Prolawnservice
09-14-2008, 09:04 AM
Why do we not want to recognize a valuable role in microbes???

What will they eat then?

JDUtah
09-14-2008, 11:03 AM
Not sure here, very little reading done, but is CGM a recycled waste stream? They say it is created in corn syrup manufacturing, so did they find a way to turn waste (from corn syrup manufacturing) into a useful product? Like I said I haven't researched it, and am not really interested in using it. Just wondering.

Smallaxe
09-15-2008, 08:53 AM
What will they eat then?

I have been doing fine with mulched clippings, compost, and Milorganite. They are also fed by the host plant when they are needed to eat rock or inorganic mineral compounds. (Otherwise rather inactive.)

That is what this has been about. Microbes eat dirt!!! :)

[Milorganite is safe on lawns and landscapes, but I do not use it in the vegetable garden. Though it is claimed it could be.]

Kiril
09-15-2008, 09:15 AM
They stop short of giving an indication as to HOW 'adsorbed' particles are "...relatively easily released...".
I'll keep looking. :)

Because there is no single answer.

phasthound
09-15-2008, 10:06 AM
[Milorganite is safe on lawns and landscapes, but I do not use it in the vegetable garden. Though it is claimed it could be.]

If you are eating mass produced veggies, you can be pretty sure that biosolids are part of the fertilizer mix.