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Tim Wilson
09-16-2008, 12:03 PM
http://www.newfarm.org/depts/NFfield_trials/0903/daviddouds.shtml

ICT Bill
09-16-2008, 01:56 PM
Thanks Tim, I remember reading that before, I wonder when it was written

It sounds like you have to stand back when you put the seed in the ground so the plant won't hit you in the eye

Great group, our marketing guy Shep worked there (Rodale) for many years, 7 I believe

muddstopper
09-16-2008, 09:43 PM
Interesting article. I wasnt aware of any scientific studies showing loss of MF during winter months on soils with no plant growth, altho I had suspected it. In my personal garden, I have already, (last week), planted annual ryegrass (not grain) with a endo micor innoculation. Endo isnt just for grass and will form relationships with many/most veggie crobs. The total area is 2000 sqft and heavily mixed with horse manure compost. I also incorporated chemical ferts to raise the P levels to 300lb (150ppm)per acre rates. As well as lime rates of 4000lbper acre. It will be interesting in how well the micor establish this winter and how much of the nutrients will be availabe for plant use come spring planting. I feel the rye grass will capture most of the available N from the manures and when tilled into the soil will release that N in a slow feed to what ever veggies I choose to plant. I should note that this is the same garden spot I posted about a few months back. The soil consists of groundup subsoil (rock)from the bottom of a 100ft deep cut on a hiway construction project.

Feel free to critique my procedures.

DUSTYCEDAR
09-16-2008, 11:18 PM
Fun Stuff///

treegal1
09-17-2008, 09:04 AM
so thats why phill has sod in the fridge, 10 years now and he has only said that he is putting the sod to sleep.lololol

you can also use other corms and tubers to grow out your own, another great way to grow your own is to seed a small part of the worm beds with bahia, and then just add some of that to the tea, grass and all.

but it still comes down to diversity

ICT Bill
09-17-2008, 09:38 AM
Hey Mudd, did you guys stay pretty dry down there with that big storm going through or did it dump a bunch of rain?

Tilling is counter productive if you are trying to get fungal numbers up, it rips them all into tiny bits and they basically have to start over again, the no till farmers have figured it out.

The fungi in the soil are the big decomposers, look under any fallen tree and the fungal numbers will be 1000 to 1 to bacteria, these are the guys that mine nutrients and fight pathogenic opportunists. The no Till guys just knock the grass over an let it degrade on the surface, it helps with moisture retention and soil erosion.

here is a long term study from USDA on light til organic farming, this farm is less than a mile from my house, they have a slightly different version
http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/pr/2007/070710.htm

treegal1
09-17-2008, 09:50 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JK1jCOXa5kw&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PW4mwVJPS9A

JDUtah
09-17-2008, 11:46 AM
Tilling is counter productive if you are trying to get fungal numbers up, it rips them all into tiny bits and they basically have to start over again, the no till farmers have figured it out.

The fungi in the soil are the big decomposers, look under any fallen tree and the fungal numbers will be 1000 to 1 to bacteria, these are the guys that mine nutrients and fight pathogenic opportunists. The no Till guys just knock the grass over an let it degrade on the surface, it helps with moisture retention and soil erosion.

here is a long term study from USDA on light til organic farming, this farm is less than a mile from my house, they have a slightly different version
http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/pr/2007/070710.htm


LOL OOPS.......

Tim Wilson
09-17-2008, 12:05 PM
Growing your own mycorrhiza?? It doth digress. It's easy to start a thread.

JDUtah
09-17-2008, 02:57 PM
Growing your own mycorrhiza?? It doth digress. It's easy to start a thread.

Our bad Tim. :dancing:

Very interesting article. He mentions using some native dirt to try to grow indigenous species. That brings up the question, how do you know the dirt/roots you are using have Native Mycorrhiza in the first place? Are they easily identifiable with a microscope?

Tim Wilson
09-17-2008, 10:51 PM
Are they easily identifiable with a microscope?

Hi David,

Yes. In the case of grass roots one would look for fungal hyphae strands adhered to and entering/bonding with the roots (endo-species). This is not something I'm well practiced in so do not feel qualified to say more. I've observed in some vegetable and forest roots what I thought were mycorrhizal mycellia (bundles of hyphae) with the naked eye. (forest usually supports mostly ecto-species) There can be confusion with actinomycetes, a bacterial structure with a fungal appearance.

Tim Wilson
09-17-2008, 11:05 PM
Here are some photos on a fellow- British Columbian's website. Most are complicated enough to require some reading, however some give the straight forward image.

http://www.mycolog.com/chapter17.htm

growingdeeprootsorganicly
09-17-2008, 11:16 PM
tim,

i seen/read that to see endo colonization on the roots they need to be stained with dye to help see the endo spores? not really sure, do you know if there's any validity to that?

Kiril
09-17-2008, 11:30 PM
Tilling is counter productive if you are trying to get fungal numbers up, it rips them all into tiny bits and they basically have to start over again, the no till farmers have figured it out.

In general I agree, but it is worth noting there are cases where tilling is needed.

treegal1
09-17-2008, 11:38 PM
In general I agree, but it is worth noting there are cases where tilling is needed.yes thats very true, as much as I hate to do it we had to rip a yard with my new bottom plow, we turned the whole yard up side down, it had to be done, the farm will be getting the same soon!!

Kiril thanks, for that other thing!

Tim Wilson
09-17-2008, 11:48 PM
tim,

i seen/read that to see endo colonization on the roots they need to be stained with dye to help see the endo spores? not really sure, do you know if there's any validity to that?

This, I'm sure is helpful in some cases but I believe some of the photos by Kendrick (in last post) are with DIC (similar to Ph. contrast) so some colored filters and phase contrast should show the basics (or just phase contrast). I've yet to learn more about this so I don't want to say much.

But, you know how it goes. Try it and you'll figure it out.

ICT Bill
09-18-2008, 12:26 AM
TG, have you loked at the Arevator

Interesting

treegal1
09-18-2008, 01:09 AM
bill, this is a one time deal with the plow, we have some johnson grass that has to go, after that its strait hand farm, we have even done a patch with only fire and hand tools its almost1/2 acre, it is all prepped, the rest has to get a plow taken to it once, the plow and tractor are a loaner from the largest farmer in the us, they have a hideout just up the road and the manager has known me since I was knee tall, he said " I have got to see this, if it works your on the payroll, did you know we buy fuel buy the tandem full and whole barges of fertilizer every month, 2700 metric tons at a time!!!!!"

treegal1
09-18-2008, 07:42 AM
the next morning, yawn, got to get that CD, the 5th kingdom, I had visions in my head................

ICT Bill
09-18-2008, 09:59 AM
In general I agree, but it is worth noting there are cases where tilling is needed.

Yep, I agree. One of the big differences in open systems and closed.

It is not often, except new construction and renovations of course, that you rip up yours or a customers yard with a plow, it wouldn't cross your mind.

Core Aeration maybe but can you imagine the look on a customers face, "Hi mrs jones, we will be by tomorrow to plow and disk your grass"

treegal1
09-18-2008, 10:19 AM
yes thats exactly what we said and did, pull up and unload the excavator, pulled all the dirt away from the house about 12" deep and then te took the bottom plow and turned the whole thing, changed attachments and tilled with a 6 foot 95 hp tiller, it was like whip cream!! added some manure(animal and green-waste) then re tilled it, added some myco and tea, lots of wood ash and a few hand fulls of bone char, then it was rolled sod(thats a first) and cut in the edges, one day new lawn!

on sat. we are going to do the farm with the bottom plow only.

treegal1
09-18-2008, 10:23 AM
sorry no plow pics, wah wah wah.......

treegal1
09-18-2008, 10:26 AM
its also almost all native plants 98%

muddstopper
09-23-2008, 07:51 PM
ICTBill, To answer your first question, we didnt get a drop of rain from the Hurricane, and we really needed it too.

As for the tilling, this doesnt necessary destroy the mycor fungi, infact it propabl;ey helps it spread to new plant growth. It does destroy the soil humis which is what the notill farming is trying to restore. Most of your storebought Mycor is simply choppedup roots anyways. You probably dont remember the pics of my proposed garden site. Its total subsoil fill about 60ft deep. Tilling is the only way in this situation, at least it seems to be the easiest and fastest way to incorporate the necessary missing nutrients.

As for seeing the mycor spores, not likely with the naked eye. You can see the hyphen strans with the eye, as well as the mycleium (my spelling sucks), and with ecto you can see the vescules with the aid of a simple magnifying glass. You have to know what your looking at, otherwise it just looks like a bunch of small roots. Endo mycor grows inside the roots.

growingdeeprootsorganicly
09-23-2008, 09:29 PM
tree,

NICE!!!

ICT Bill
09-23-2008, 10:51 PM
ICTBill, To answer your first question, we didnt get a drop of rain from the Hurricane, and we really needed it too.

As for the tilling, this doesnt necessary destroy the mycor fungi, infact it propabl;ey helps it spread to new plant growth. It does destroy the soil humis which is what the notill farming is trying to restore. Most of your storebought Mycor is simply choppedup roots anyways. You probably dont remember the pics of my proposed garden site. Its total subsoil fill about 60ft deep. Tilling is the only way in this situation, at least it seems to be the easiest and fastest way to incorporate the necessary missing nutrients.

As for seeing the mycor spores, not likely with the naked eye. You can see the hyphen strans with the eye, as well as the mycleium (my spelling sucks), and with ecto you can see the vescules with the aid of a simple magnifying glass. You have to know what your looking at, otherwise it just looks like a bunch of small roots. Endo mycor grows inside the roots.

I know your whole area really could use it and your monsoon season is almost done, you'll get some I can feel it in my bones

My point on tilling was that the bacteria and fungi that have made colonies and fungi that had miles of hyphi through the soil have to start all over.
In places where the soil has been totally disturbed ( by highway construction for instance) it really makes no difference, it is at the beginning of succession anyway, TILL AWAY !

Tim Wilson
09-24-2008, 12:08 PM
Most of your storebought Mycor is simply choppedup roots anyways.

However it is roots of plants which has gone dormant, thus forcing the mycorrhizal fungi to produce spores which are the active element of what you are buying.

When a fungi network is established through soil, tilling *&%$ it up good. No doubt. Sometimes tilling is necessary at the onset. Can you explain how tilling destroys humus? I thought it was pretty stable and portable stuff.

JDUtah
09-24-2008, 12:15 PM
So it would be most effective to let your rye go dormant before using the rye soil as an innoculant?

Is there any data suggesting how long the mycho fungi (or spores) survive in the soil without a host plant?

Tim Wilson
09-24-2008, 12:27 PM
Yes, assuming you are seeking mycorrhizal spores.

To the best of my rudimentary knowledge on the subject, the spores can be stored indefinitely but once they sprout they must have contact with a root host within 24 to 48 hours.

JDUtah
09-24-2008, 12:44 PM
Thanks tim :)

ICT Bill
09-24-2008, 02:08 PM
Yes, assuming you are seeking mycorrhizal spores.

To the best of my rudimentary knowledge on the subject, the spores can be stored indefinitely but once they sprout they must have contact with a root host within 24 to 48 hours.

I am not so sure about that statement and have asked many a mycologist this very question, I'm not saying your wrong or anything like that, you may in fact be right but every mycologist I ask that question too does not have an answer

Here is how I pose the question, I have been told that mycorrhizae has to have a root association or it becomes biomass, it does not survive. The answer is always "that is true", what is the time frame that a spore can last in the soil before it dies? 10 minutes, 10 days, 10 months or 10 years? the answer is always "YES" all of the above.

Dr. E once told me 4 to 5 months, Dr. Mike once told us months to years, Paul Stamets says he doesn't really know, I don't know either

Barry Draycott asked someone he knows at Rutgers, he said they form mycelia and grow slowly one cell at a time, often the root bumps into them but made it seem like they could last a long time, months to years kind of thing

Tim Wilson
09-24-2008, 03:21 PM
Have you specified after sprouting? Spores can probably last a million years.(or more???) Of course I'm easily wrong.

muddstopper
09-24-2008, 07:28 PM
. Can you explain how tilling destroys humus? I thought it was pretty stable and portable stuff.


Tim, I probably aint the best person to explain this, so i am just goingto tell how it was explained to me.
Humis is derived from dead and decaying organic material. Some of this material is located in the soil in the form of roots, worms, microbes, etc. Other forms are located above the soil, trees, grass, animals, etc. Anyways, it all lives, dies and decays. The organic material above the soil falls to the soil surface where it decays to form humis, of course the below ground material also forms humis. The material below ground is exposed to more of the microbes and decays at a faster rate simply because these microbes can attack more surface areas of the dead materials. The surface materials will only have one side exposed to the massive amounts of microbs located inside the soil. Turning the soil over and burying the organic material that is normaly only laying on top of the soil will expose this material to more microbes resulting in faster consumpsion of this material. The result is a loss of carbon thru respiration in the form of CO2 gas given off by the breating of the microbes. When you lose carbon you are losing humis.

I know its a lot more complicated than this explanation, maybe I can find a link that explains it a little better.

muddstopper
09-24-2008, 07:38 PM
It didnít take long to find a link to support at least part of what I said.

http://www.newfarm.org/columns/ray_weil/2003/0103.shtml

Here is one paragraph found at this site, but read the whole page.

Passive organic matter also plays a role in global climate change. Most agricultural soils have about one-half the carbon as they had under natural vegetation. Thatís mainly because tillage speeds the decomposition of organic matter. During this process microorganisms turn the carbon in organic matter back into carbon dioxide gas that adds to the amount of this greenhouse gas in the atmosphere.

muddstopper
09-24-2008, 08:00 PM
However it is roots of plants which has gone dormant, thus forcing the mycorrhizal fungi to produce spores which are the active element of what you are buying.

.

Tim, Ecto mycor is grathered from puffballs as actuall spores. Its fast and easy to grow and gather. Because Endo mycor doesnt reproduce using puffballs, truffels, etc. it is grown on/inside the roots of grassy plants. These plants are usually container grown in green houses. To harvest the mycor, the plants are pulled out of their pots and the roots cut off and then dried. The plants dont go dormant and are usually repotted after removal of a portion of their roots. The dried roots are usally chopped up into little pieces and sold as Mycor innoculants. There is considerable debate about just how fine these root particals can be chopped up and still hold viable mycor spores. Tilling under a crop of mycor innoculated ryegrass is going to chop up the roots somewhat, but certainly not as fine as the material being sold as mycor innoculants.

Since Endo mycor is also the mycor most closely associated with most vegetable crops, it would seem to me a mature mycor innocculated ryegrass crop, tilled into the soil would be a pretty good way to innocculate my veggie garden. I might be wrong, but i havent seen any evidence to suggest it wont work. Of course the dead roots might just rot and kill any mycor living inside them, so i guess I'll just call this a test. if it dont rain pretty quick, it might not even be a good test:cry:

ICT Bill
09-24-2008, 08:25 PM
Since Endo mycor is also the mycor most closely associated with most vegetable crops, it would seem to me a mature mycor innocculated ryegrass crop, tilled into the soil would be a pretty good way to innocculate my veggie garden. I might be wrong, but i havent seen any evidence to suggest it wont work. Of course the dead roots might just rot and kill any mycor living inside them, so i guess I'll just call this a test. if it dont rain pretty quick, it might not even be a good test

actually Mudd you are right on
Rye roots can reach 2 to 4 feet into the ground, often breaking up compaction as they go. Lets see, if you plant annual rye, it dies off and leaves the roots 2 to 4 feet down Okay now just think if you inoculated with good guys that are now reaching 2 to 4 feet into the soil................they now become passage ways for other roots and worms and .............and ........and JEEZ you've got compost tea that reaches 2 feet down

Bioprime the rye or pregerminate

ever try a radish to break up the soil and provide organic matter 12 to 18 inches? don't harvest just leave it

phasthound
09-24-2008, 08:33 PM
Tim, I probably aint the best person to explain this, so i am just goingto tell how it was explained to me.
Humis is derived from dead and decaying organic material. Some of this material is located in the soil in the form of roots, worms, microbes, etc. Other forms are located above the soil, trees, grass, animals, etc. Anyways, it all lives, dies and decays. The organic material above the soil falls to the soil surface where it decays to form humis, of course the below ground material also forms humis. The material below ground is exposed to more of the microbes and decays at a faster rate simply because these microbes can attack more surface areas of the dead materials. The surface materials will only have one side exposed to the massive amounts of microbs located inside the soil. Turning the soil over and burying the organic material that is normaly only laying on top of the soil will expose this material to more microbes resulting in faster consumpsion of this material. The result is a loss of carbon thru respiration in the form of CO2 gas given off by the breating of the microbes. When you lose carbon you are losing humis.

I know its a lot more complicated than this explanation, maybe I can find a link that explains it a little better.

I hate to use wikipedia as a source, but this is a pretty good explanation of humus.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humus

muddstopper
09-24-2008, 08:56 PM
Actually Bill, we do plant and leave radishes in our garden. They always seem to grow faster than we can eat them. They eventually grow long and spindly and make seed heads. I had never considered planting them just for root growth untill reading the article I posted above. Might be worthwhile to plant a few in the rows with the other veggies, it aint like the seeds are expensive, a spoonful will plant a big patch., Naw that wont work, my wife would pull them as weeds.

treegal1
09-24-2008, 10:54 PM
ok I got to jump in here just for a second, growing mycos, love it!! there are several ways to get a good carrier, roots are great if you got a heap of them, or a really large root system or even a corm, maybe even a tuber, then you need to get the mycors to infect something that can also be used as a carrier, we have used cotton seeds before with some really cool results, its like bills famous grass seed start where you add the benifitals to a seed and pre germinate it( thats a good one "pre" as to start before it starts.lolol) same here you skin your corm or tuber(don't kill it) and then add some of that to your seeds(cotton seed is trash !!) and start them get them going real strong, maybe use a sprayer( sump pump and full head sprinkler on a tarp) and just keep the water sprayed on your seeds, after they get going real well with 4 inch roots or more then you just stop it with the water and let the good guys take a nap or spore or that big hard to say word the science types use for nap time, what ever just let it dry out over a few days and then grind it up, sorry I forget who said something about size, very important not to beat the stuff up but more to cut it into dust, and still have large counts of what you want, one of us other than me has had to taken some seeds and some myco powder and stared into the glass of the ukn........................

Smallaxe
09-25-2008, 04:42 AM
Isn't mycor specie specific to a large extent? Will rygrass mycor innoculate fescue in the north and bermuda in the south?
How about collecting the roots of naturalized poa growing wild everywhere and use it to innoculate my domestic poa or KBG?

treegal1
09-25-2008, 08:59 AM
Isn't mycor specie specific to a large extent? Will rygrass mycor innoculate fescue in the north and bermuda in the south?
How about collecting the roots of naturalized poa growing wild everywhere and use it to innoculate my domestic poa or KBG?
and the winner is.........

thats the hot ticket, we go hunting some time with the old scope in tow, its mostly guess work and some detective type soil crawling, maybe just anecdotal, but it sure makes for some strange looks from the fish and wildlife cops." what are you doing on the ground?? and I say" hunting for some micro herd" one day I know they are going to just call a shrink.

any who, take a walk about in the wilds( this can be the woods or an empty lot that's over grown, maybe the median) always look for the superior plant, not the tallest or any thing like that, just the best, the one in all of 5 acres that does not have chew marks and not a spot one, super grass. then grab him with a large root ball and soil, get back to the lab and start poking around and ask WHY. I have soil test from the strangest places, every now and then I go wow and start to track back who what why how when and all that goodness, so far it seems to be working for me, other than that get some starter culture like ICT or something else or a few different types. as far as who's on first? I can not say that this one or that one is going to grow on this or that grass or tree. but most of the time they all share the area and the trees are good and the grass does not seem to mind all that much

Tim Wilson
09-25-2008, 10:39 AM
Humis is derived from dead and decaying organic material.

We actually already had a thread on 'what' humus is. If you can find it, I wrote a pretty accurate description of what humus is and presented the two scientific schools of thought on the subject. What you have described is not good for the atmosphere and may interupt the formation of humus but does not describe the destruction of humus which has already formed. Humus, as we know it is regularly trucked around the country. Whether this is or digging it up harmful to humus itself is unknown to me.

Tim Wilson
09-25-2008, 11:50 AM
Tim, Ecto mycor is grathered from puffballs as actuall spores. Its fast and easy to grow and gather.

Indeed, this would give you some ectomycorrhizal spores which you could inoculate certain species of trees with but this by no means gives you a broad range which is necessary for other species. There are probably between 50 and 100 species of ectomycorrhizal mushrooms or more with various associations with various tree species. What you may not see and know of is that there are 'mushrooms' which are single entities which have a vast miriad of mycellia in the ground interconnecting fruiting bodies. Some of these living things are hundreds and thousands of years old. When Joe comes along and cuts down a forest or rottotills up the ground he cuts this living thing to pieces. This does not multiply it. This kills or damages it.

Because Endo mycor doesnt reproduce using puffballs, truffels, etc. it is grown on/inside the roots of grassy plants. These plants are usually container grown in green houses. To harvest the mycor, the plants are pulled out of their pots and the roots cut off and then dried. The plants dont go dormant and are usually repotted after removal of a portion of their roots. The dried roots are usally chopped up into little pieces and sold as Mycor innoculants.

If this is where you get your mycorrhizal spores from, I would suggest that the sporrulation percentage would be very low. Like other living things endomycorrhizal has a life cycle; vegetative and reproductive. During the vegetative stage it is receiving carbons from the host plant and growing and reaching out for nutrients to serve the master. When the host plant dies, goes dormant or in the case of tropical species enters a new phase of growth, the endomycorrhizal fungi enters its reproductive phase and produces spores as a means of survival. That is why the plant should be killed or should go dormant to get endomycorrhizal spores rather than a bunch of chopped up dead hyphae with low spore numbers.

You could research the life cycle of mycorrhizal fungi to explore this further.

it would seem to me a mature mycor innocculated ryegrass crop, tilled into the soil would be a pretty good way to innocculate my veggie garden

Perhaps if it were a virgin garden but I would suggest that tilling will disrupt fungi which you may have established previously. A better way to inoculate mycorrhizal fungi is to place spores into the planting hole and or dip seedling roots into the spores.

Tim Wilson
09-25-2008, 01:01 PM
Bill,

Did you miss this question? [QUOTE][Have you specified after sprouting?/QUOTE]

growingdeeprootsorganicly
09-25-2008, 05:01 PM
tim,

some like some questions un answered?:confused:

growingdeeprootsorganicly
09-27-2008, 07:15 PM
ecto? pin oak tree root i think? i was digging in the woods for different kinds of samples

growingdeeprootsorganicly
09-27-2008, 07:18 PM
cont..........

JDUtah
09-27-2008, 07:37 PM
How do you distinguish Myco from root hairs?

growingdeeprootsorganicly
09-27-2008, 07:42 PM
root hairs don't look like fungi

treegal1
09-27-2008, 08:17 PM
and are a shade bit smaller...............

ICT Bill
09-27-2008, 09:39 PM
tim,

some like some questions un answered?:confused:

Apologies Tim if I missed a question you asked, a bit busy, please ask again

Tim Wilson
09-28-2008, 10:07 AM
[QUOTE][Have you specified after sprouting? Spores can probably last a million years.(or more???) Of course I'm easily wrong.
/QUOTE]

Bill, This is in reference to your post about your question to microbiologists regarding survival of mycorrhizal without roots present.

ICT Bill
09-28-2008, 11:46 AM
[Have you specified after sprouting? Spores can probably last a million years.(or more???) Of course I'm easily wrong.

Bill, This is in reference to your post about your question to microbiologists regarding survival of mycorrhizal without roots present.

The point I was trying to make is that I don't know and it seems that everyone I ask that has much more background than me does not either. Below is from a professor at rutgers that Barry knows, it does not answer the question of how long but does give some good information on how they work.


"Mycorrhizal fungal spores do need to be in very close proximity of a root to germinate. However, naturally in the soil these fungi produce elongate hyphae (strands of cells joined end to end) which can be very extensive (some types to a matter inches to feet, others hundreds of feet) and these can be a source of inoculum for the root, when a root intercepts these hyphae. For this to happen, the plants need to be mycorrhizal or planted among plants that are already mycorrhizal.

In the case of applying a commercial mycorrhizal inoculum, especially for grasses, the bulk of the inoculum is in the form of spores, which are microscopic. Thus a surface application of the spores as a spray and subsequent watering or rainfall will tend to wash the spores to depth in the soil through natural channels and pores in the surface.

That way, mycorrhizae can get down to the roots, rather than growing downwards as hyphae.

The person mentioned in one comment is Mike Ammaranthus, who is indeed
a great mycologist and who has published on mycorrhize."

Tim Wilson
09-28-2008, 05:00 PM
Bill, I think my question called for a yes or no.

In review you said:

"every mycologist I ask that question too does not have an answer

Here is how I pose the question, I have been told that mycorrhizae has to have a root association or it becomes biomass, it does not survive. The answer is always "that is true", what is the time frame that a spore can last in the soil before it dies? 10 minutes, 10 days, 10 months or 10 years? the answer is always "YES" all of the above

Dr. E once told me 4 to 5 months, Dr. Mike once told us months to years, Paul Stamets says he doesn't really know, I don't know either."

In response to which I asked:

"Have you specified after sprouting?" {yes? no?}

and stated:

"Spores can probably last a million years.(or more???) Of course I'm easily wrong."

growingdeeprootsorganicly
09-28-2008, 06:17 PM
anyone?

what is necessary for the myco spores to germinate?

correct moisture?....specific temps?...nutrients..root exsudents or other indicators that the specific spore knows it's rear a specific root ?

or does it lye dormant till it has found what it needed to grow?

is there any real unbias studies on this?

ICT Bill
09-29-2008, 09:05 AM
The reason the answer is "YES" is because there are 1000's of different kinds that all work differently, there is no stock answer of "12 minutes" or "12 years" you have to be specific to type and genus to get an answer and frankly there are so few studies on the subject that the answer still could be "YES"

We probably have not catagorized 1/4 of them, then it brings up the subject of Mycorrhizae Helper Bacteria, can the mycorrhizae survive without them, if you aren't familiar with them google it

We have been providing these little helpers in our mix from the beginning

I am not sure "after sprouting" is relevant, according to the mycologist Barry got an email from hyphi can grow hundreds of feet, does that mean it has sprouted? Obviously it would take some time for a fungi to grow hundreds of feet

Smallaxe
09-29-2008, 09:50 AM
anyone?

what is necessary for the myco spores to germinate?

correct moisture?....specific temps?...nutrients..root exsudents or other indicators that the specific spore knows it's rear a specific root ?

or does it lye dormant till it has found what it needed to grow?

is there any real unbias studies on this?

The first line of what this professor wrote that Barry knows according to Bill a couple of posts ago :

"Mycorrhizal fungal spores do need to be in very close proximity of a root to germinate. ..."

Does this mean that it would be more of a signal that the host is near, rather than germinating like a seed when light, moisture, and temp are correct?
That would make the most sense.

My big question is : Has anyone found old growth turf areas that has NOT had AM fungi with it?
The reason for the question is to answer the question: Doesn't all grasses eventually pickup AM after a few years of establishing themselves in a given area? i.e. Isn't AM just about everywhere by now?

Something to think about :)

ICT Bill
09-29-2008, 10:28 AM
The first line of what this professor wrote that Barry knows according to Bill a couple of posts ago :

"Mycorrhizal fungal spores do need to be in very close proximity of a root to germinate. ..."

Does this mean that it would be more of a signal that the host is near, rather than germinating like a seed when light, moisture, and temp are correct?
That would make the most sense.

My big question is : Has anyone found old growth turf areas that has NOT had AM fungi with it?
The reason for the question is to answer the question: Doesn't all grasses eventually pickup AM after a few years of establishing themselves in a given area? i.e. Isn't AM just about everywhere by now?

Something to think about :)

My guess is that your statement is true, the question is percent of colonization. according to folks that I have spoken to 70% is the magic number as far as long term health, its ability to fight off pathogens and nutrient transfer capability. Any is good but more is quantifiable

Our product is based on being able to have 70% colonization over a 2 year period, the assumption is that there is nothing there to begin with. We have based our products on transistioning turf.

Tim Wilson
09-29-2008, 10:34 AM
The reason the answer is "YES" is because there are 1000's of different kinds that all work differently, there is no stock answer of "12 minutes" or "12 years"

Bill,

Is this reply to me? There seems some confusion here.
All I wanted to know is; When you posed your question did you ask about sprouted spores or did you ask about spore survival unsprouted? They are two entirely different things.

I was not asking, under what circumstances sprouting takes place.

If hyphae is growing, of course the spore has sprouted. I am familiar with helper bacteria.

I'll try to lift a photo of a sprouted spore to post later.

Tim

ICT Bill
09-29-2008, 10:50 AM
I am not sure "after sprouting" is relevant, according to the mycologist Barry got an email from hyphi can grow hundreds of feet, does that mean it has sprouted? Obviously it would take some time for a fungi to grow hundreds of feet

I answered your question to the best of my ability, I really have no idea, too many variables. I am just relating what my conversations and research have shown

treegal1
09-29-2008, 10:58 AM
hope for peace, plan for war...................

Tim Wilson
09-29-2008, 11:14 AM
I answered your question to the best of my ability, I really have no idea, too many variables. I am just relating what my conversations and research have shown

You don't know what you asked? You made an attempt to describe how you posed the question and I 'simply' asked for a small expansion. I'm not trying to make any trouble and am not asking anything complicated.

Analogy: How long can a grass seed survive without water? {depends whether it is sprouted or not?}

ICT Bill
09-29-2008, 11:39 AM
You don't know what you asked? You made an attempt to describe how you posed the question and I 'simply' asked for a small expansion. I'm not trying to make any trouble and am not asking anything complicated.

Analogy: How long can a grass seed survive without water? {depends whether it is sprouted or not?}

I have no idea, how long?
what type of grass seed?
Is bamboo considered a grass, how about corn or is it a cereal? are cereal's a different genus or species

catch my drift, too many variable to have one answer

JDUtah
09-29-2008, 12:21 PM
Does colonization only take place on the root tip?

ICT Bill
09-29-2008, 01:54 PM
Does colonization only take place on the root tip?

Different strains do it differently, ecto mycorrhizae create what is called a hartig net completely surrounding the root, endo mycorrhizae actually break into the plants root through the epidermis, it seems that they go no further than that. I don't know enough about ericoid but believe they are much like endo

All types, after initial colonization, advance into the soil mining nutrients and giving them back to the plant, the plant in turn feeds the fungi exudates from the root

There is a lot of reclassifying going on in mycology, DNA sequencing has made it so that you can exactly which is which, in some cases what was long thought to be in a certain genus turns out it is something else

Tim Wilson
09-29-2008, 02:21 PM
I have no idea, how long?
what type of grass seed?
Is bamboo considered a grass, how about corn or is it a cereal? are cereal's a different genus or species

catch my drift, too many variable to have one answer

Bill,

D*** it! I'm not asking for an answer. I'm asking how you phrased your question to the microbiologists. Simple.

Did you specify pre or post sprouting?

That is all I asked.
___________________________________________
My analogy:
Regarding the seeds: Most seeds can last indefinitely until exposed to water or moisture.

ICT Bill
09-29-2008, 05:44 PM
Bill,

D*** it! I'm not asking for an answer. I'm asking how you phrased your question to the microbiologists. Simple.

Did you specify pre or post sprouting?

That is all I asked.
___________________________________________
My analogy:
Regarding the seeds: Most seeds can last indefinitely until exposed to water or moisture.

I guess I am just thick headed lately, My question has always been "how long do mycorrhizae last without a root association?" whether that is pre or post I don't know, I would not think of posing the question the way you are posing it.

treegal1
09-29-2008, 06:08 PM
I guess I am just thick headed lately, My question has always been "how long do mycorrhizae last without a root association?" whether that is pre or post I don't know, I would not think of posing the question the way you are posing it.
not even on your best day.LOLOL the dense award is mine all mine.LOLOL

ok on a more serious note,"how long do mycorrhizae last without a root association" we have observed with our UNTRAINED eye, some interesting things, 10 before association with a root temperature is the biggest factor, let me say how, we have some access to a commercial myco, every now and then we add some to the tea in the last seconds of the brew, some always gets spilled, the colder it is the longer it lasts, or does not go into an active mode. how ever after it has linked up with a root it may last some time weeks or months even if the root is dead or almost dead, so long as it does not get to dry, but we have never seen an free formation even in the best soils, although after we put sod roots in the worm beds or corn, we do see a lot more fungal #s that seem to last longer and have more of the characteristics of EM than other fungus. no paper on this one just my two blood shot eyes...... and 1/2 a brain

Smallaxe
09-29-2008, 06:34 PM
My guess is that your statement is true, the question is percent of colonization. according to folks that I have spoken to 70% is the magic number as far as long term health, its ability to fight off pathogens and nutrient transfer capability. Any is good but more is quantifiable

Our product is based on being able to have 70% colonization over a 2 year period, the assumption is that there is nothing there to begin with. We have based our products on transistioning turf.

Interesting ... thanks.

Tim Wilson
09-29-2008, 09:23 PM
I guess I am just thick headed lately, My question has always been "how long do mycorrhizae last without a root association?" whether that is pre or post I don't know, I would not think of posing the question the way you are posing it.

Thank you...thank you...thank you:canadaflag:

ICT Bill
09-29-2008, 10:31 PM
Yeah for Canada :canadaflag::canadaflag::canadaflag:

Can you give us a little help with the CFIA............PLEASE

Are you a Canadian agent perchance? just kidding

treegal1
10-26-2008, 02:04 AM
Even better. They have added yucca, sea kelp and other beneficial as well as microbes. To answer your question from the forum, they have figured out a way to feed these guys in the jug. The mycorrizal fungi grow under the side and push the glass off the slide under the scope. Quite an amazing productcould it be that we have all had the wrong ideas about AM and EM this whole time???? good god would I love to see AM grow so fast that it would push a slide that is several hundred milligrams???? and aren't these things aerobics and if the eat anything while in a jar or jug would the jug burst????

treegal1
10-26-2008, 02:05 AM
maybe Tim will jump in here or bill, or some one with some more info than I have on AM and EM.

Tim, my cat made me have to yell, it gave me a 5 piece phone, eh got to love the little guys, the more white in there fur the my trouble I think

Tim Wilson
10-26-2008, 09:49 AM
Where is this from? Not this thread?

What is 'these guys'? Ectomycorrhizal can be grown easily (as in many species of mushrooms). I have not yet heard of a way to grow endomycorrhizal without roots. It is the root which causes the spore to sprout. Yes, I did find this out and yes the spore can exist unsprouted indefinitely in wait for the root.

The drop on a slide is equal to about 1/20th of a mg. (ml)

My cat and I have now made up.

treegal1
10-26-2008, 12:15 PM
what does a slide cover = in mg???


http://www.lawnsite.com/converse.php?u=79030&u2=75298

growingdeeprootsorganicly
10-26-2008, 03:43 PM
;2572513][QUOTEOriginally Posted by Sustainable-Scapes
Even better. They have added yucca, sea kelp and other beneficial as well as microbes. To answer your question from the forum, they have figured out a way to feed these guys in the jug. The mycorrizal fungi grow under the side and push the glass off the slide under the scope. Quite an amazing product][/




WOW! i've heard it all now?

Tim Wilson
10-27-2008, 10:15 AM
A typical coverslip is 20X20mm. For general quanitification calculations the science community has agreed that there are 20 pippette drops per ml. One drop is usually covered by a coverslip therefore the volume of liquid under a coversilp is 1/20th of a ml. By wait of water 1 ml = 1 mg. therefore the weight of the liquid under the coverslip is considered equal to 1/20th of a mg. (generally)

If you measure your field of view at (e.g.) 20X then you can use this information to calculate your number or volume of microbes per ml/mg/gram. To actually calculate the weight of microbes per weight or volume of water (e.g. ug/ml or ug/mg) you need to know the weight of the specific microbe. In my opinion, this is where inaccuracies occurr in many of the commercial lab test results. This makes sense if you are measuring only one species of bacteria or fungi but as it turns out the different species have different mass and in the case of compost and compost tea biotesting, they are not differentiating species. Because they are all lumped together, it makes no sense to me to give results in weight per volume of water or soil, etc. It would make much more sense to me to express this in 'volume per volume' OR 'number per volume'.