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JDUtah
09-17-2008, 12:43 AM
Deeproots posted his weed control methods for his organic lawns. A thick and strong stand of turf is the most important thing as we know...

I had plans to use pre-m's and spot spray some chems, but background pressure from Tree has encouraged me to stay away from it. (Thanks) So now it's committed no chems. So I need to work on things now to help me get the strong stand of turf for next year. For an organic overseeding, what do you suggest? In searching I found these basics...

1-Mow lawn short
2-Core aerate
3-Overseed
4-AACT
5-Compost topdress, 1/4"
6-Roll with roller to get good soil/seed contact
7-If needed, irrigate to keep moist

What would you add or take away?

Grass = KBG. How much seed do you suggest per 1,000 for an overseed? How short do you suggest the KBG is mowed? Anything else you can think of? Oh, and FYI slit seeders are unheard of out here, no rental stores have them.. nothing.

dishboy
09-17-2008, 08:29 AM
I would do a heavy fall fertilizer pushing growth and root gowth.
Would not mow any shorter than 2.5 inches for cool season grass, would only aerate and over seed if turf was VERY sparse. I would not roll/compact the seed bed and only aerate heavily if lawn was thin enough to warrant over seeding. Would focus on monitoring water using deep infrequent watering and making sure water is reapplied before turf stresses. Heavy fall fertilizer with grains will build worm populations negating need for aeration IMO.

Smallaxe
09-17-2008, 08:34 AM
I just toss the over-seed onto the lawns and topdress with compost.
If there is no real reason to aerate why do that step? Its like mini-tilling and brings more weed seed to the surface.

DeepGreenLawn
09-17-2008, 10:18 AM
I aerate, overseed and then water... come in with a fert for my regular customers as another service, allows me to sell a program to any new customers as well. I am thinking that next spring, early spring, that I will possibly aerate and overseed again if the lawn is not doing to well... if I had a good source of compost I would do that as an added service to help with the germination. One day that will be a given... but until then... it is a costly added service due to labor for the most part...

Ideally:
Aearate, overseed, topdress, water. The compost will also be the fert... then possibly hit again in the early spring if needed...

dishboy
09-17-2008, 12:08 PM
I aerate, overseed and then water... come in with a fert for my regular customers as another service, allows me to sell a program to any new customers as well. I am thinking that next spring, early spring, that I will possibly aerate and overseed again if the lawn is not doing to well... if I had a good source of compost I would do that as an added service to help with the germination. One day that will be a given... but until then... it is a costly added service due to labor for the most part...

Ideally:
Aearate, overseed, topdress, water. The compost will also be the fert... then possibly hit again in the early spring if needed...

So what's the protein or N content of that compost you are calling fertilizer?

treegal1
09-17-2008, 12:25 PM
the one compost he has in his area is almost 11% N ,IMO that should be blended down to 2.5-.5

JDUtah
09-17-2008, 02:35 PM
Thanks for the input guys

Kiril
09-18-2008, 12:19 AM
I would do a heavy fall fertilizer pushing growth and root gowth.
Would not mow any shorter than 2.5 inches for cool season grass, would only aerate and over seed if turf was VERY sparse. I would not roll/compact the seed bed and only aerate heavily if lawn was thin enough to warrant over seeding. Would focus on monitoring water using deep infrequent watering and making sure water is reapplied before turf stresses. Heavy fall fertilizer with grains will build worm populations negating need for aeration IMO.

HUH??? :cry:

Smallaxe
09-18-2008, 09:01 AM
HUH??? :cry:

Thanks, Kiril.

Dooger54
09-18-2008, 10:15 AM
I question whether it's best to overseed and then topdress. If you topdress at 1/4" I would think that could bury your seed to deep. I think you only want the KBG seed about 1/8" deep.

Why not topdress first, then overseed (about 3-4# per 1000) then rake in.

ICT Bill
09-18-2008, 11:23 AM
I question whether it's best to overseed and then topdress. If you topdress at 1/4" I would think that could bury your seed to deep. I think you only want the KBG seed about 1/8" deep.

Why not topdress first, then overseed (about 3-4# per 1000) then rake in.


I would think either way would work fine

Compost tends to compress after a few rains or waterings and if the soil is warm basically disappear into the soil profile within a month or so, 1/4 inch of compost is soon not even noticable especially with KBG that takes 2 to 4 weeks to germinate, I'm not saying one is better than the other, just rambling

dishboy
09-18-2008, 09:30 PM
HUH??? :cry:So what's wrong with my methods .

ICT Bill
09-18-2008, 09:54 PM
So what's wrong with my methods .

I think this statement, I posted another article that worms boosted New Zealands pasture by 100%, you may be right

Heavy fall fertilizer with grains will build worm populations negating need for aeration IMO.

Kiril
09-19-2008, 12:00 AM
So what's wrong with my methods .

I would do a heavy fall fertilizer pushing growth and root gowth.

Why would you do/want this?

Would not mow any shorter than 2.5 inches for cool season grass

Why not if reseeding?

would only aerate and over seed if turf was VERY sparse.

Why? You want a showcase lawn ... over seed yearly. Have compacted soil or have a need to get OM into the profile ... aerate. Remember, competition is the best defense against weeds. If you wait until your lawn is "very sparse" to over seed, then IMHO you missed the boat.

Heavy fall fertilizer with grains will build worm populations

Please provide some documentation for this?

What I see more times than not is worms hanging out in disturbed soils where OM is higher and soils are less compacted, and hardly any in surrounding compacted soil, regardless of what is sitting on the surface. Aeration creates pockets of disturbed soil that allows the worms to do their job more quickly and efficiently.

dishboy
09-20-2008, 02:07 PM
Why would you do/want this?



Why not if reseeding?



Why? You want a showcase lawn ... over seed yearly. Have compacted soil or have a need to get OM into the profile ... aerate. Remember, competition is the best defense against weeds. If you wait until your lawn is "very sparse" to over seed, then IMHO you missed the boat.



Please provide some documentation for this?

What I see more times than not is worms hanging out in disturbed soils where OM is higher and soils are less compacted, and hardly any in surrounding compacted soil, regardless of what is sitting on the surface. Aeration creates pockets of disturbed soil that allows the worms to do their job more quickly and efficiently.

I would fertilize heavily in the fall as this is the best time IMO to thicken turf density and build roots. This is supported by university turf programs in many northern states, http://www.agry.purdue.edu/turf/tips/2008/09_03fallfert.html . IMO over seeding and aeration is not necessary to have or to maintain a "showcase " lawn if good cultural practices are in place and organic fertilizers containing grains are used. I can speak from experience that with regular feeding with grains, mulch mowing and proper watering that worm populations increase. This fact was first made know to be by the forum modulator David Hall and I have seen this to be true. Growing grass is not really that hard, just try keeping it out of places you don't want it. I see worm activity any where their is food and nothing there to kill them. Spread some fine alfalfa or soy meal on the bare ground under a tree and come back the next day tom see all the two inch circles where the meal is now gone, feed those worms and the breed! From my perspective and time constraints composting/seeding /aerating etc is just not necessary for effective organic program , at least in my area.

ICT Bill
09-20-2008, 02:21 PM
I would fertilize heavily in the fall as this is the best time IMO to thicken turf density and build roots. This is supported by university turf programs in many northern states, http://www.agry.purdue.edu/turf/tips/2008/09_03fallfert.html . IMO over seeding and aeration is not necessary to have or to maintain a "showcase " lawn if good cultural practices are in place and organic fertilizers containing grains are used. I can speak from experience that with regular feeding with grains, mulch mowing and proper watering that worm populations increase. This fact was first made know to be by the forum modulator David Hall and I have seen this to be true. Growing grass is not really that hard, just try keeping it out of places you don't want it. I see worm activity any where their is food and nothing there to kill them. Spread some fine alfalfa or soy meal on the bare ground under a tree and come back the next day tom see all the two inch circles where the meal is now gone, feed those worms and the breed! From my perspective and time constraints composting/seeding /aerating etc is just not necessary for effective organic program , at least in my area.

I am very familiar with university studies, you need to look deeper into these studies to see what they were actually comparing. root mass, ok it promote root mass, but how long are the roots? If you cut down through the soil profile how far down do they go?

the fact is that heavy fertilizer use does promote root growth but only at the surface where the fertilizer is. The plant has no reason to go any deeper into the soil because all of the food is right in the first few inches.
Fertilizer use does not promote good root growth into the soil profile where it can get nutrients when the temp effects of the fertilizer goes away.

Give the area a bit of drought and the plant suffers because it is not growing down into the soil, turn up the heat and it wilts, not great for longterm growth and health

dishboy
09-20-2008, 02:56 PM
I am very familiar with university studies, you need to look deeper into these studies to see what they were actually comparing. root mass, ok it promote root mass, but how long are the roots? If you cut down through the soil profile how far down do they go?

the fact is that heavy fertilizer use does promote root growth but only at the surface where the fertilizer is. The plant has no reason to go any deeper into the soil because all of the food is right in the first few inches.
Fertilizer use does not promote good root growth into the soil profile where it can get nutrients when the temp effects of the fertilizer goes away.

Give the area a bit of drought and the plant suffers because it is not growing down into the soil, turn up the heat and it wilts, not great for longterm growth and health

No but the worms will pull that organic fertilizer down into the area below the root zone. IMO shallow rooting is more of a watering issue not a fertilizer issue. My lawns roots are five inches deep, I never cut longer than 2.75 inches and most of the time at 2.5 inches. I water once a week when daily temps. are below 90F and twice when above 90F.

growingdeeprootsorganicly
09-20-2008, 03:28 PM
From my perspective and time constraints composting/seeding /aerating etc is just not necessary for effective organic program , at least in my area.

consider your self lucky that you have great soil.

where im from those practices are very necessary. especially the seeding part

i agree with kiril on a decrease of worm populations in compacted soil.

some soil here has so many rocks, sand/clay that it is impossible for them to move around in. soil that is loose i see plenty always

JDUtah
09-20-2008, 03:53 PM
Part of my conversion to organics is seeing the increase of worms in an organic trial lawn.

One lawn in particular. Aerated (1 pass) and topdressed with a 1/4" of compost two months ago.

I recently used a sod cutter to pull some of it out for a flower bed. Flipping the sod over let me see the burrows easily. There was probably 3 worm holes per square foot, every square foot. That isn't common out here at all. It was significant enough to notice without even trying to. Most of the time half the worm was still in the hole.

Now if I can triple that population, and sustain it, then maybe the worms themselves would keep it aerated enough. Till then, it wont hurt imo.

------

What about seed application rates? Do you guys use the rate you would if seeding a new turf? Half that?

I read continuously that slit seeding really increases germination... is that true?

Also, maybe I should go study up on Bill's (and others) pre-innoculation/germination stuff. Do you think pre-germination would work well for an overseeding?

Thanks.

treegal1
09-20-2008, 04:16 PM
HUH??? :cry:
you do know you are going to get another of these for the water and roots thing, they call it a hydrotropisim i think, and, well you will find out, its still in some of my literature and I have to correct my self

growingdeeprootsorganicly
09-20-2008, 04:20 PM
jd, pre g is unnessary unless you need fast results from grasses like kbg or t fecue, ive never done it before and i would think it could be a risky practice if done wrong,good seed is expensive,.....research that one real well before attempt,

slice seeding really gets good results compared to just over seeding, do you have access to a power rake with metal tines or even better a thatcher? you can run the thatcher once to loosen up soil then over seed and use the thatcher to go over the seed and push it in, ive do that plenty in the past with good results,

what might be important about pre germination is if you use inoculates of some kind since you will be inoculating the seed at the same time, but you can just introduce bacteria'a,fungi's others and myco's to aeration holes and as a water in after seeding as long as it makes contact to roots or seed for the myco app

Kiril
09-20-2008, 04:20 PM
I am very familiar with university studies, you need to look deeper into these studies to see what they were actually comparing.

Ditto. Plus that Purdue link is region specific. Some fertilization at the proper time for a specific type of turf in the fall given regional conditions, definitely. Heavy fertilization (at any time of the year) not the best course of action IMO for several reasons.

1) Lots of new growth just prior to winter is more susceptible to freeze/frost damage and therefore disease (especially for plants that are sharing resources with the turf)

2) Potential for increased leaching (quick release ferts) in early winter and spring due to unused fertilizers (eg. improper timing and application amounts). Any nutrient in solution can be leached.

With respect to root growth/depth, it is dependent on a variety of factors (water, nutrients, temperature, physical properties of the soil, etc...). All factors are involved in determining your root growth/depth, however I do agree that water is the driving factor which is why I had nothing to say about your watering comment.

With respect to show case lawns .... if your turf is not self-propagating, or is heavily shaded, or any number of other reasons that can cause thinning of turf, over seeding is a necessity to maintain a thick stand of turf and that show case look.

I would still like to see some studies that support worm population growth due to surface application of grains in turf. Also, why grains and not compost? Using grains for fertilizer is hardly a sustainable practice.

treegal1
09-20-2008, 04:22 PM
jd, total plant density??????

growingdeeprootsorganicly
09-20-2008, 04:25 PM
just mulching grass clippings is yummy worm food!!!!!

JDUtah
09-20-2008, 04:47 PM
just mulching grass clippings is yummy worm food!!!!!

Lawn was bagged before a couple months ago too.. that's prolly helping too. Thanks.

Tree, what are you asking? (It is that lawn on the trial home page on my website.)

Deeproots,
Thanks for the post on Pre-G

treegal1
09-20-2008, 04:54 PM
The above is a bit different than saying roots search out water. There have been some studies concerning plant root response to hydrologic gradients (hydrotropism), however this phenomena is not very well understood nor is it currently believed to play a significant role with regard to root growth in soils to my knowledge.

In short, the roots are not growing deeper in search of water, but instead because water (and other factors that promote root growth) are present in the soil at that depth.

From an irrigation perspective, if you want the most efficient use of your water, then you should only target a depth that represents the current effective root zone, or an effective root zone that can be reasonably achieved with the plant(s) being irrigated.

...........?, that and that 3d water thing you gave us to read??? an i getting some thing wrong again???

treegal1
09-20-2008, 04:57 PM
jd how many plants do you want per ???= plant density??

JDUtah
09-20-2008, 05:12 PM
Oh, lol. Well I might sound naive here... It's for KBG.

I have no idea what the appropriate KBG plant density numbers are for good weed control and a showcase lawn.

How do you even determine plant density? Count each stem coming out of the ground per area? (I guess you assume each stem is a plant even though potentially sprouted form a rhizome?)

Kiril
09-20-2008, 05:17 PM
...........?, that and that 3d water thing you gave us to read??? an i getting some thing wrong again???

Not sure I'm following you? He said deep infrequent watering.

treegal1
09-20-2008, 05:25 PM
that is not always the way to get the desired root water availability. and water is not going to really influence root depth except in its absence, or some times in tidal basins, but in general root depth is a combination of several factors. not so much a hydrotropism.(except specialized plants)

Kiril
09-20-2008, 05:36 PM
that is not always the way to get the desired root water availability. and water is not going to really influence root depth except in its absence, or some times in tidal basins

I would disagree with that. Too much water will influence root growth/depth just as too little water. The idea behind deep infrequent watering is to allow upper profiles to dry, allowing for better oxygen exchange with the atmosphere, and to move nutrients on the surface deeper into the profile, which in turn may lead to deeper rooting depths. With regard to watering depth, water to a depth that represents the effective (or potentially effective) root zone of the plants, and perhaps a little more if there is a leaching requirement. For turf that might be anywhere from 3-12" depending on your soils.

but in general root depth is a combination of several factors.

Yes, as I noted. :) Remember, with regard to plants, everything revolves around water.

Smallaxe
09-20-2008, 07:29 PM
I would fertilize heavily in the fall as this is the best time IMO to thicken turf density and build roots. This is supported by university turf programs in many northern states, http://www.agry.purdue.edu/turf/tips/2008/09_03fallfert.html . IMO over seeding and aeration is not necessary to have or to maintain a "showcase " lawn if good cultural practices are in place and organic fertilizers containing grains are used. I can speak from experience that with regular feeding with grains, mulch mowing and proper watering that worm populations increase. This fact was first made know to be by the forum modulator David Hall and I have seen this to be true. Growing grass is not really that hard, just try keeping it out of places you don't want it. I see worm activity any where their is food and nothing there to kill them. Spread some fine alfalfa or soy meal on the bare ground under a tree and come back the next day tom see all the two inch circles where the meal is now gone, feed those worms and the breed! From my perspective and time constraints composting/seeding /aerating etc is just not necessary for effective organic program , at least in my area.

I can agree with most of what you said here, even though I don't like the idea of meal usage either. When you stated heavy N apps. I was thinking lots of synthetics sitting on top of thatch again.

If you have little thatch to worry about and lots of worm activity, 'aeration', is a non-issue in your case. It is great to hear of someone listening to folks like DC and actually following through to see for yourself the results.

Have you been monitoring thatch on your lawns? The one you stopped bagging a couple of months ago - Did it have a thatch problem for example?
The reason I ask is that I am not satified with the results of thatch thinning with just the molasses and clippings. If you have been doing extensive meal apps with good results for thatch that may be a quick fix for me. I do not need the N per se, but the raw meal may help digest the thatch layer more effectively.
What do you think?

JDUtah
09-20-2008, 07:43 PM
Smallaxe,

Not very effective control of thatch for me with molasses either. (But you know how I did that 'test' lol)

Just a thought, we want to promote microbe populations to 'eat' the thatch. Now start thinking law of the limiting factor. If microbes have too much C in a compost pile you add N to balance it out. What about thatch? Isn't it mostly C? Then adding more C (molasses) might not address the limiting factor problem and your thatch problem continues. That is as far as I will take it here, and of course you must consider a large diversity of variables and/or limiting nutrients.

Perhaps an evening foliar app of liquid fish hydrolysate targeting the thatch would be more conductive to helping bacteria eat the dead C matter more quickly? (But note a possible potential for disease infestation. Maybe add the extra fish hydrolysate to an AACT IMMEDIETELY before application?)

DeepGreenLawn
09-20-2008, 07:54 PM
This comes to a question that I have been pondering...

Grass clippings = N

Does old grass clippings = N? or C?

Personally I would think it = C as the N would leach out... that nasty stuff you get at the bottom of old grass in hoppers of mowers that smells to the high heavens.

JDUtah
09-20-2008, 08:20 PM
Hmmm I always thought so (old/brown grass, or thatch = C). But maybe I am wrong? This study shows the N and C was released from the grass clippings at similar rates....

http://www.cropscience.org.au/icsc2004/poster/2/5/2/860_koppk.htm

JDUtah
09-20-2008, 08:30 PM
OK, I found something(maybe) supporting my don't add molasses but instead add Nitrogen theory...

"The large populations of microbes keep thatch under control. Decaying plant tissue has varying amounts of cellulose, lignin, and hemicellulose, all high sources of Carbon. Carbon is the primary food for microbes, providing energy for their life processes. As dying plant material is introduced to the soil surface, microbes begin the degradation process using available Nitrogen to break down the Carbon for food and releasing CO2 and NH4 as by-products."

"Likewise, any factor that impedes microbial activity will decrease the breakdown of thatch. The C: N ratio of the products [you apply] becomes significant at this point. This ratio compares the amount of Carbon to the amount of Nitrogen within a material. Carbon is higher in organic products than the Nitrogen. Since microbes need Nitrogen to accomplish this decomposition, Nitrogen within the product becomes a limiting factor. Here is a chart with some typical C: N Ratios and results:"
http://www.naturesafe.com/content/newsletters/03-01-1.html

Although in the end they are just selling their products, so can we say "grain of salt"?

Where can a Utahn get fish hydrolysate??

DeepGreenLawn
09-20-2008, 09:02 PM
you don't want too much N though of course... you have to keep in mind, the C:N ratio for compost processing is typically 30:1, so just a little N will go a long way I would think... no more than you would properly apply to a lawn...

any local fish hatcheries near by? Lakes, rivers? Seafood restaraunts?

"Fish hydrolysate: Fish hydrolysate, in its simplest form, is basically ground up fish carcasses. After the fish fillets are removed for human consumption, the remaining fish body, (which means the guts, bones, cartilage, scales, meat, etc.), is put into water and ground up. Some fish hydrolysate is ground more finely than others so more bone material is able to remain suspended. Alternatively, enzymes may be used to solubilize bones, scale and meat. If the larger chunks of bone and scales are screened out, calcium or protein, or mineral content may suffer. Look at the label carefully for the concentration of mineral elements in the liquid.Some fish hydrolysates have been made into a dried product, but most of the oil is left behind in this process, which means a great deal of the fungal-food component would be lacking."

http://info.asapsupplier.com/index.php?pageid=351

wallzwallz
09-20-2008, 09:12 PM
How much you looking for? There are on line places but anything over a gallon starts to get $$$ shipping. If you would like a quart, or whatever size water bottle I have in my recycle bin, of Neptunes 2-4-1 Fish Hydrolsate, here's a link http://www.neptunesharvest.com/ I will send it to you, PM me your US Postal Service address. I have a 5 gallon jug I opened last week and don't want it around all winter.

JDUtah
09-20-2008, 09:15 PM
Oh yes for sure.. i'm talking way diluted N.. not enough to even consider it a fert treatment.

I'll keep looking but none that I can think of. Lol now "brine hydrolysate" would be a different story ou here by the great salt lake. :)

JDUtah
09-20-2008, 09:21 PM
wallz.. pm sent. Thanks. :)

growingdeeprootsorganicly
09-20-2008, 11:17 PM
molasses for thatch control, please do not expect after a app or two that ALL the thatch eaten up, just like with any product don't expect INSTANT results from a app or two unless were talking soluble npk for green up and growth,

molasses is a excellent food to stimulate micro's, thatch didn't build up in a day nor will it be gone in a day from microbial break down, patience my friends

DeepGreenLawn
09-20-2008, 11:30 PM
I believe the issue with patience does not pertain to us... it's the customers... although, many of my lawns are in MUCH better shape now than when I started this year...

next year I expect things to go even better as I will be better equiped and have a better idea as to what I am doing...

growingdeeprootsorganicly
09-20-2008, 11:39 PM
deep,

understand what your saying about customers?

thats why they invented a dethatcher machine

the use of molasses and other foods helps keep the thatch in check once problem is fixed?

growingdeeprootsorganicly
09-20-2008, 11:48 PM
to expect that all the thatch will be dissolved by a molasses app is foolish.
but to say molasses or any thing else that stimulates micro's doesn't help reduce thatch over time is just as foolish jmo

any liquid food will help since it adheres to and is absorbed by the thatch/excessive clippings after app compared to a granular.
molasses is very powerful food!!!

DeepGreenLawn
09-21-2008, 12:07 AM
to expect that all the thatch will be dissolved by a molasses app is foolish.
but to say molasses or any thing else that stimulates micro's doesn't help reduce thatch over time is just as foolish jmo

yeah that is kind of what I was trying to say... just more involved... all this talk about microbes and all it gets you in a trance of thinking what biology to use for each situation and I, maybe everyone, tend to forget about the equipment available....

Thatch is not too big a problem around here anyways... nothing a rake can't handle...

growingdeeprootsorganicly
09-21-2008, 12:23 AM
[QUOTE=DeepGreenLawn;252291.. all this talk about microbes and all it gets you in a trance of thinking what biology to use for each situation [/QUOTE]


most of the time,

just supply the food and the microbe's will take care of the rest

JDUtah
09-21-2008, 01:18 AM
to expect that all the thatch will be dissolved by a molasses app is foolish.

I did not expect all the thatch to be 'dissolved' by a molasses app. (2 actually) But no noticeable change is one of my concerns.

but to say molasses or any thing else that stimulates micro's doesn't help reduce thatch over time is just as foolish jmo

I never said that.

any liquid food will help since it adheres to and is absorbed by the thatch/excessive clippings after app compared to a granular.

I like the liquid reasoning. That is why I have treated my thatch stuff with liquid.

molasses is very powerful food!!!

If molasses is this end all food you seem to claim why are other ingredients required for an AACT? Why do you also use fish hydrosylate (2-4-1 + micros), kelp meal (1-0-2 + micros), & rock phosphate?

I am not saying molasses will not help digest a thatch layer, but perhaps there is a better, more effective product to use in this situation?

Isn't your argument against Bill's 123 that while it may be good to add herd to the lawn, his is not adding enough of the right stuff (limited microbe diversity and food for the microbes)?

It appears to me that you want the best solution when it comes to an AACT, but not microbial thatch reduction? :confused:

just supply the food and the microbe's will take care of the rest

A malnourished child will become healthy and thrive if you give him more of the exclusive candy bar diet he is already eating?

I understand de-thatching and believe in it when occasion requires, but what I am talking about is when the lawn for any reason tends to have a significant amount of dead, brown, visible grass blades. While not enough of a problem to merit dethatching, it causes the aesthetics of the lawn to decline significantly. If you can find an effective way to quickly remove a good amount of these blades (which de-thaching doesn't do anyway) you have a very powerful tool. (but "man can't fly" - year 1900)

It is my understanding that these undecayed brown blades are 'left over' cell walls (mostly cellulose - a carbohydrate just like molasses). So if you are trying to help the microbes that are currently only eating mostly carbohydrates why would you add more carbohydrates for significant results?

Nope, IMO adding more of the same food wont help. Now, if a foliar app of the lacking nutrients is absorbed (as you say) into the cellulose... you have just created a 4 course meal for the little dudes. Who might make a significant aesthetic improvement...

"what if..." :waving:

growingdeeprootsorganicly
09-21-2008, 01:56 AM
I did not expect all the thatch to be 'dissolved' by a molasses app. (2 actually) But no noticeable change is one of my concerns.



I never said that.



I like the liquid reasoning. That is why I have treated my thatch stuff with liquid.



If molasses is this end all food you seem to claim why are other ingredients required for an AACT? Why do you also use fish hydrosylate (2-4-1 + micros), kelp meal (1-0-2 + micros), & rock phosphate?

I am not saying molasses will not help digest a thatch layer, but perhaps there is a better, more effective product to use in this situation?

Isn't your argument against Bill's 123 that while it may be good to add herd to the lawn, his is not adding enough of the right stuff (limited microbe diversity and food for the microbes)?

It appears to me that you want the best solution when it comes to an AACT, but not microbial thatch reduction? :confused:



A malnourished child will become healthy and thrive if you give him more of the exclusive candy bar diet he is already eating?

I understand de-thatching and believe in it when occasion requires, but what I am talking about is when the lawn for any reason tends to have a significant amount of dead, brown, visible grass blades. While not enough of a problem to merit dethatching, it causes the aesthetics of the lawn to decline significantly. If you can find an effective way to quickly remove a good amount of these blades (which de-thaching doesn't do anyway) you have a very powerful tool. (but "man can't fly" - year 1900)

It is my understanding that these undecayed brown blades are 'left over' cell walls (mostly cellulose - a carbohydrate just like molasses). So if you are trying to help the microbes that are currently only eating mostly carbohydrates why would you add more carbohydrates for significant results?

Nope, IMO adding more of the same food wont help. Now, if a foliar app of the lacking nutrients is absorbed (as you say) into the cellulose... you have just created a 4 course meal for the little dudes. Who might make a significant aesthetic improvement...

"what if..." :waving:




jd,

i think you reading into my simplified statements to much?
and was not pointing fingers at anybody it just seems sometime that " people"
talk about applying an app or two with no noticeable results, with organic products results may take longer depending on many factors

never said molasses is the END ALL product? where did i say that?

concerning bills product the biggest problem i have is it's called compost tea,
i don't have a problem with whats in it, if he has a product with this or that call it that, not compost tea, i suspect with limited diversity and the limited amount of food fish/kelp/humic other, at the recommended rate will do much.


aact.... yes i use many foods not because of the npk rating!! look deeper into that, those food contain more then that and have diversity of their own


once again i state for the record molasses is not the only food to use.... for anything....thatch reduction,growing,aact whatever, diversity in foods is KEY!!!!!

maybe i miss stated my points in the other post? or it was to simplified or to fage in explaining my points?

my point was just that providing the right foods help with thatch control, to what degree...well that depends on too many factors but none the less promoting and stimulating micro's on and in that area with extra foods will help break down and speed decompression of dead matter. and molasses is a powerful food to use. nothing more

if you think that dead grass leaf blades are the same thing as molasses then maybe you know something i don't? please correct me if im wrong?

keep researching online, in books, but run some REAL" long term" tests and see what does what
keep me posted:)

Smallaxe
09-21-2008, 10:50 AM
The C/N ratio is a good point. Something to think on.

[When I refer to 'thatch' it is the densly packed layer of living and dead, roots and stems. Not clippings]

http://www.urbanext.uiuc.edu/lawnchallenge/lesson5.html

Grass clippings are considered more N than C [cell walls not withstanding] and they are virtually non-existant in my lawns. And don't get me wrong - thatch is actually loosening and maybe thinning. It has just not given me results I was hoping for. I have aerated it this year also.

Yeah , I may need to get patience. How long is it suppose to take to get patience anyways?!?! :)

JDUtah
09-21-2008, 01:15 PM
ROUGHLY:
Molasses is about 50% sugar (carbs) and...

"The third boiling of the sugar syrup gives blackstrap molasses. The majority of sucrose from the original juice has been crystallized but blackstrap molasses is still mostly sugar by calories; however, unlike refined sugars, it contains significant amounts of vitamins and minerals. Blackstrap molasses is a source of calcium, magnesium, potassium and iron. One tablespoon provides up to 20 percent of the daily value of each of those nutrients. Blackstrap is often sold as a health supplement, as well as being used in the manufacture of cattle feed, and for other industrial uses."

Cullulose:
"Cellulose is an organic compound with the formula (C6H10O5)n, a polysaccharide consisting of a linear chain of several hundred to over ten thousand β(1→4) linked D-glucose units" (a big chain of carbs) Wiki

Is a brown grass blade leaf mostly cellulose?

Does patience come in 50 gallon barrels? Can you force feed customers?

But anyways, like DGL asked, does the N get used as a blade turns brown?

growingdeeprootsorganicly
09-21-2008, 01:35 PM
jd,

you didn't answer my question? is dead grass the same thing as molasses, i understand there's cellulose but once again the answers are right under your nose and you miss them again

maybe some of the sales guys on here can sale you a drum?

customers can be feed alot of things aslong as it makes sense to them

but once again you take my words out of contents and my Patience comment is not referring to just sit and wait it out!! use mechanical practices to you advantage,

maybe you should reread your friend making book again and i'll just let others find their own way since they have every thing figured out anyway,


smallaxe,

i mentioned grass clipping only because some lawns have excessive amounts too because of disease,insects,cutting toohigh in wet grass/clumps, and stimulating decomposition will help that too... but what do i know????

growingdeeprootsorganicly
09-21-2008, 01:46 PM
introducing my new product!!!

EASY INSTANT 123 PATIENCE IN A BOTTLE, what all good gardeners need?
call 1-800-123-free

DUSTYCEDAR
09-21-2008, 02:02 PM
introducing my new product!!!

Easy instant 123 patience in a bottle, what all good gardeners need?
Call 1-800-123-free

i want a truck load now
ill take all u have

JDUtah
09-21-2008, 02:10 PM
Lol deeproots,

I think you are taking my stuff out of context... maybe I wasn't clear enough?

I am not telling smallaxe how to handle his thatch problem. (Sorry smallaxe if you thought I was) His thatch problem isn't even the same as the one I am discussing anyway. I am possibility thinking a way to address my own 'thatch' issue. (maybe I should come up with a better word for it.)(who started this thread what?)

Deeproots, as far as your question goes about molasses and grass blades... I have asked some questions in return (not to you specifically)... Is a brown grass blade basically the cell wall (mostly cellulose)... if it is then yes it is composed of the same thing as roughly 50% of the molasses. (You do remember plants only usually use 12 elements for everything they need right?)

Maybe you should re-read 'my fiend making book' and realize I am not instructing smallaxe, but trying to find my own way, for my own things. Perhaps you should take your own advice and let me find my own way?

And maybe you missed it... I am not saying your molasses advice wont help.. I am only saying perhaps there is something that will help with my situation better. Once again, you choose not to use 123 because it wont do as well for your lawns as your own 'real' AACT; while overtime 123 WLL do good to a lawn, just like over time molasses WILL do good to thatch digestion. :hammerhead:

You mentioned mechanical practices, and I addressed that already. They do not work for the problem I am referring to. You still have visible brown blades after a power raking/de-thatching.

maybe we all need some 123 patience in a bottle.

:)

You mean man still can't fly????

growingdeeprootsorganicly
09-21-2008, 02:18 PM
jd,??????

did not take ur meds? the friend comment was from me to u because of the way u posted back to me.

once grass goes brown it has the same nutrition as molasses? only 12 elements in play? thats the point your missing

go my friend fly find ur own way:angel:

JDUtah
09-21-2008, 02:25 PM
lol maybe we should both read a book on communication. I missed the "I'll" in the paragraph where you told me to read my book again. I thought you were telling me to let smallaxe run his own path...

And as far as my application of the book goes... We do know I have years of bad habits and lack complete and perfect diplomatic skills. Sorry I'm not perfect. Generally if you look, I think I am doing better than I have before. :)

What are all the plant essential nutrients? Why are they called plant essential nutrients?

growingdeeprootsorganicly
09-21-2008, 02:33 PM
jd,

yes, but look deeper other micro/trace nutrients
vitamins/organic acids/enzymes others to start

growingdeeprootsorganicly
09-21-2008, 02:37 PM
because they are the essential ones needed, but not the only ones needed for great growth if you look at that list they have added to it over the years once they figured what is truly essential, if you go by that list only you or should i say ur plants miss out?

JDUtah
09-21-2008, 06:08 PM
Alright thought...

Smallaxe,

In your context of thatch, can I ask you, do your lawns currently have good worm populations?

Maybe a good approach would be to aerate (if compacted under the thatch, to encourage 'better worm housing') and then maybe a small application of local native worm castings including worm eggs.

Earthworms should love a thatch layer? If you help give them a good home the food is already there? They should not only eat it, but 'till' it into the earth.

Maybe aerating indirectly helps a thatch layer because it encourages earthworm populations in compacted soils?

What else would discourage an earthworm.. ie salt level, compaction, ...?

Just a thought...

treegal1
09-21-2008, 08:44 PM
native worms??????

JDUtah
09-22-2008, 03:48 AM
haha sorry... I just meant earthworms.... I think redworms don't survive the winters out here...

do you think that migth help though, a redworm casting with eggs application?

Smallaxe
09-22-2008, 10:08 AM
Worms typically hibernate below the frost level. They should certainly be the best line of defense against thatch builup. The heavy raw, red clay that was brought in is still a main obstacle to a good lawn on one property. I think I saw some worm holes in various locations, so I am hopeful.

Sugar/Molasses apps. were introduced to provide glucose/sucrose energy to increase the populations of microbes to do a particluar job. One problem with the heavy clay is the prevalence of anaerobic environment after every sprinkle or rain.

Now that it is cooler and I see evidence of roots deeper in the 'plugs' I have shut off the water. As the thatch gets to enjoy an aerobic environment for a while, the roots will hopefully push their way deeper into the clay.
Worms would definately help with that.

JDUtah
09-29-2008, 07:15 PM
Just an update...

The question whether molasses or nitrogen source would better help microbes break down fungi lead me to start a little experiment...

I collected thatch(dead blade version) and separated it into 9 equal parts and placed each into Tupperware containers with 4 holes on top and 1 hole on each side. I then moistened them (3 oz non-chlorinated water) and fed them different foods dissolved in the water. 3 of the samples have 1/8 teaspoon molasses, 3 have 1/8 teaspoon fish hydrolysate, and three are the control with no food added. Kept constant temp around 70 F.

Misting as needed... it will be interesting to see what one breaks down fastest.. if any do break down faster...

So far I can observe fungal colonies growing in all 9 samples. The best(largest) colonies are found in the fish hydrolysate samples.

Interestingly the control samples seem to have better fungal colonies than the molasses.

Obviously none of them are far enough along to determine actual degradation.... time will tell...

I might not post more about this test here... we'll see... just thought I would share and update...

------

Pic 1 is the samples as stored... left stack is molasses, middle is control, right is fish, and the one on the very left is 1/16 teaspoon each of fish and molasses.

Pic 2 is one of the fungal colonies found in one of the fish samples.

Pic 3 is a top view off all open samples taken today. same order as pic one...

treegal1
09-29-2008, 07:50 PM
oh no you opened them.lol. now you have a cross contamination.........................:laugh:

JDUtah
09-29-2008, 07:52 PM
lol...... :cry:

Smallaxe
09-29-2008, 08:16 PM
Interesting idea. They should each feed a different set of microbes.

If you get varying colored colonies be sure to post. :)

treegal1
09-29-2008, 08:25 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_8VDUheI2o&feature=related

this would be cool also.............

ICT Bill
09-29-2008, 09:47 PM
Protozoa food is what you need, that is the biggest, in numbers, on blades of grass, there is bacteria and fungi but protozoa make up the biggest numbers

sealed tupperware is probably not the best testing facility, unique, but not a yard environment

also worms probably eat most of the litter left on the lawn

cudaclan
09-29-2008, 09:49 PM
JD, this experiment is more centered for a compost pile, yes (?).

JDUtah
09-29-2008, 09:58 PM
Bill...

Worms were addressed earlier...

What is good protozoa food? Bacteria and fungi = CT? Do protozoa eat cellulose and excrete enzymes to break it apart? I thought they eat the bacteria and fungi?

The containers aren't "sealed".. and if you wanna get nit picky... you can always argue too many variables in almost ANY organic based test. (which IMO is what you are doing to dodge questions from deeproots & Tim in other threads at this very moment)

Do you have a process for me to evaluate decomposition of thatch in an open environment like a lawn? Didn't think so.

:waving:

JDUtah
09-29-2008, 10:02 PM
Cudaclan,

Nope... it's geared to the layer of thatch that can occur on/in a turf.

Hence it's 'as if' you sprayed the lawn with molasses OR fish hydrolysate to specifically address a thatch problem...

Why you ask?

DeepGreenLawn
09-29-2008, 10:02 PM
Worms were addressed earlier...

What is good protozoa food? Bacteria and fungi = CT? Do protozoa eat cellulose and excrete enzymes to break it apart? I thought they eat the bacteria and fungi?

The containers aren't "sealed".. and if you wanna get nit picky... you can always argue too many variables in almost ANY organic based test. (which IMO is what you are doing to dodge questions from deeproots & Tim in other threads at this very moment)

Do you have a process for me to evaluate decomposition of thatch in an open environment like a lawn? Didn't think so.

:waving:

easy... just a little constructive criticism(spelling?) to help you out a little...

JDUtah
09-29-2008, 10:17 PM
easy... just a little constructive criticism(spelling?) to help you out a little...

Eventually it will sink into my thick skull that posting anything on a public forum is parallel to asking for criticism...

DUSTYCEDAR
09-29-2008, 11:20 PM
got that right or left

ICT Bill
09-29-2008, 11:58 PM
Bill...

Worms were addressed earlier...

What is good protozoa food? Bacteria and fungi = CT? Do protozoa eat cellulose and excrete enzymes to break it apart? I thought they eat the bacteria and fungi?

The containers aren't "sealed".. and if you wanna get nit picky... you can always argue too many variables in almost ANY organic based test. (which IMO is what you are doing to dodge questions from deeproots & Tim in other threads at this very moment)

Do you have a process for me to evaluate decomposition of thatch in an open environment like a lawn? Didn't think so.

:waving:

JD I am trying to figure out what the question is with growing, I think I figured out Tim's and now yours ???

If you want an answer to: If you were sailing down a sidewalk and your front wheel fell off, how many pancakes can you fit into a doghouse......my answer would be



ice cream



I guess

I mean literally, give me a question, not some mumbo jumbo like yours isn't as good as mine. prove it, I can

One is not better than the other, they are different applications for different things. The thing that I cannot understand is why you guys are not extracting instead of brewing, it makes no sense to me

You can extract 3000 gallons in a morning, screw 24 to 36 hours for a brew if you are doing turf and landscape applications, why aren't you extracting

Extracting is for landscapes, brewing is for disease supression...DUHHH

Ask Todd and Chip and Betsy and Dr E and Ray and and

and even if you do brew or extract you still cannot tell me what is in there, I can. Is your product registered as a fertilizer or soil amendment in your state?

Enough of who's is better than who's (except in whoville) it is about the application and less inputs. If you want to promote less inputs and less runoff and less poisons. I am with you and it is one of the main reasons I stepped in here with our products

rant over

JDUtah
09-30-2008, 12:17 AM
Bill,

Thanks for turning me onto something that might be better than tea brewing. If you've followed I haven't been much of a believer of tea. Nor really a believer of any "microbe innoculant"

I did field tests with 123 ICT... no difference in color... not greener, not anything. Do I need long term applications for it to kick in? Maybe. Do i need more SOM? Maybe. Soil pH? Maybe... ... ...

Graduated to a lame attempt at a CT... no difference there either...

I just sprayed a "better" attempt of a CT today. Along with some humates, and fish hydrolysate mixed in right before I sprayed... we'll see how it does...

Will there be much color diff? I don't know.. hopefully.

I admire the motive that got you into ICT... Products are hit and miss. Keep pushing along (as will I) and you guys will find more hits than misses.

I really don't have beef with you or anything. I initially took your 'constructive criticism' offensively because I did not post to get any advice or critiquing. It came anyway... However, it is my fault for posting. I should have figured the good people on this forum would suggest things to help me stretch to a hire standard.

We both move forward....

"Extracting is for landscapes, brewing is for disease supression..."
Can you give me more? In both scenarios aren't you adding more microbes = disease supression?

treegal1
09-30-2008, 12:23 AM
:waving:oh oh oh, me me can I answer, huh can i,

I do both extract and brew, some times a brewed extraction, thing of it is, well the whole reason most don't extract is that it is not just a tank and an air pump. i takes some work and skill or a really large chunk of change to get started.

305,186,613 people in the us, come on guys, no one not even scotts has all of those under contract, so we are just fighting over nothing, good god there is about what 6- 10 of ya just in NJ WTF why don't ya just have lunch and a beer or beat each other up and get over it. lets find something to do that's fun, like beat the chem guys. for real it is what it is, 2 different things trying to met the same goals, less synthetic crap and CIDES, even if bill made a million gallons of his ICT he would only have what 1/300 of the total market, so what let the sports turf go we don't do that kind of thing any ways, stick to high end res and be happy, even if I could (love ya bill) I would not step foot in his shoes, not what I want, that's his gig, good for him.
lets try and get along even if its just to disagree to disagree, then we can get back to bashing the chems and all that.:waving:

DUSTYCEDAR
09-30-2008, 09:34 AM
lol that is funny lunch in NJ WHAT EXIT?
i agree lets just all make some money and make the world a better place for all.

Smallaxe
09-30-2008, 10:53 AM
Protozoa food is what you need, that is the biggest, in numbers, on blades of grass, there is bacteria and fungi but protozoa make up the biggest numbers

sealed tupperware is probably not the best testing facility, unique, but not a yard environment

also worms probably eat most of the litter left on the lawn

I agree with JD here in that we are comparing molasses with something else in its ability to digest a particular forage with whatever is living on the plant now.

If niether is protozoa food, or there is no protozoa present, or will the additives with enough moisture blossom the protozoa colony, or, perhaps the moisture alone made the diffference.... is ALL irrelevant for this experiement.

What ever happens we know the only variables are the microherd feedstuffs. Field experiments are much more full of variables , but that is the environment in which I broadcast molasses. So either way we may discover one being better than another.

JDUtah
09-30-2008, 08:56 PM
Bill,

What do people do with the "spent" compost after an extract?

Thanks.

Lol this thread is ALL over the place!

ICT Bill
09-30-2008, 09:25 PM
Bill,

What do people do with the "spent" compost after an extract?

Thanks.

Lol this thread is ALL over the place!

Put it back in the compost pile, of course

Let it get all covered with microorganisms (MO) again

It does take much more compost to do an extraction than brewing, most of the MO are dormant or in spore form, you are basically forcibly moving the MO from their happy little home on the organic matter

Betsy Ross has been doing it for years in Texas for farms with excellent results, she started doing it to have more nutritious grass to feed to her beef, and as a result have better quality beef. It worked, she is pretty famous for her beef in Texas

There are many including Todd Harrington that use it for lawn and landscape

Extraction for most applications especially as drenches for the soil and compost teas for foliar, mostly disease suppression

treegal1
09-30-2008, 09:49 PM
Bill we have eaten some of that beef we got if from the world hunger relief in Tx, at a garden market.Mmmmmmmmm that was great beef

oh the spent compost, just use it for mulch or like you said just back in the pile for a while longer, fluff some manure with it and net it go.

JDUtah
09-30-2008, 09:54 PM
Cool info guys. Thanks. :)

JDUtah
10-01-2008, 10:09 PM
Time for today's close-ups.

Every sample has some of the same white 'fluffy' colonies. The white fluffy colonies in the fish samples look like they have actually decreased in size. I think they are not thriving as they once were. They still have the most/biggest ones though.

Some other interesting things are one of the molasses samples has grown real small white puff ball colonies. And the fish sample I posted a picture of before has grown real small green puff ball colonies.

Man I wish I had a scope.

Anyways...

Pic 1 is of Molasses sample #1. The white colony found in all 3 feed types (according to my naked eye).

Pic 2 is the little green puff balls in Fish sample #2. You can also see one of the remaining white fluffy colonies (although that one looks a little different than the rest of them).

Pic 3 is Molasses sample #2 you can see the little white puff ball colonies. (one green colony is visible too)

Hope you enjoy. :waving:

Kiril
10-01-2008, 11:58 PM
Extracting is for landscapes, brewing is for disease supression

I agree.....

Prolawnservice
10-02-2008, 12:11 AM
I was taught that extracting was better for landscapes if you had access to large amounts of compost, and brewing was if you did not.

JDUtah
10-02-2008, 12:14 AM
Why do either when you can topdress and get the full benefit from the compost?

Even the local extension ag guy has observed disease reduction with just compost...

treegal1
10-02-2008, 12:20 AM
cuz I aint hard headed to want to spread 150 acres of compost every month, so instead I use a hose, and pump to do my work, that and some spent beer....................

treegal1
10-02-2008, 12:22 AM
I was taught that extracting was better for landscapes if you had access to large amounts of compost, and brewing was if you did not.we just do it on rotation mon wed fri get tea thats brewed tues wed get extract. run of the mill compost for extract and worm casts for the tea..........

Kiril
10-02-2008, 08:42 AM
Why do either when you can topdress and get the full benefit from the compost?.

I agree ........

ICT Bill
10-02-2008, 01:08 PM
It is definately a scaling issue, a few customers brewing is fine, more and extraction is better

I have visited many lawn and landscape companies around the country some have as many as 6000 to 8000 customers at one location, how do you do that with brewing? you don't

The logistics are just too much, they need an off the shelf product that can be carried in the truck or mixed at the site in the morning before leaving

JDUtah
10-02-2008, 01:40 PM
Bill do you have every batch of 123 tested for pathogens as well? (The thought of applying a safe - pthaogen free - product without having to worry about it every time is attractive) If I can get it working in my area, I might still use it yet...

treegal1
10-02-2008, 02:07 PM
It is definately a scaling issue, a few customers brewing is fine, more and extraction is better

I have visited many lawn and landscape companies around the country some have as many as 6000 to 8000 customers at one location, how do you do that with brewing? you don't

The logistics are just too much, they need an off the shelf product that can be carried in the truck or mixed at the site in the morning before leavingthats not totally true, a 1500 gallon brewer will make about 8000 gallons of tea after it is watered down, even if these guys are filling the ict at the customers houses which i doubt, 3 gpm is to slow, they could cover there 8000 acres in no time with a brewer or or even an extractor, and even with the time and brewer cost first time lets say 10,000$ that is still a savings compared to 8000 acres of 123 at 26 per acre, say 20,000$ so the real question is how can they not brew there own.............I mean almost $160,000. on tea thats out of hand..........

treegal1
10-02-2008, 02:24 PM
and then lets look at sod farms and the dreaded golf course, we do both , sod farm is 500 acres and the golf course is 2400 acres, with real brewed tea, the sod farm takes us about 5 hours to do the brew thing( our time to intervene over 48 hours, the GC takes about a day of an un trained body to record the DO2 and temp Ph and so on, then we run over and take a sample to look at in the microscope, then the rest gets sent out to an independent lab at the CG's cost and request, as soon as we give the OK its flip the switch and it gets pumped into the irrigation water, they seem to see the savings and results, just take a scan of google earth and take a look, its the only green golf course in my area, the sat photo was Aug of 08, cost per app on 2400 acres about 8K per run, and the equipment was 6500$ my cost to set them up, 5000 gallons at a time, even the show dirty jobs has a 3500 gallon brewer on the show its the end of the worm farm segment.

bill do you remember what I said about "cant" and "don't"?????

treegal1
10-02-2008, 02:36 PM
then lets get into the logistics of 8000 customers, lets just say for jokes and kittens that you are doing about 24 days work per month, that's fair??? so 24 goes int 8000 to about the 330 per day range, so the you would need to fill lets say 5 gallons per yard 330 yards a day 1650 gallons per day working out of what 10 trucks, so about 165 gallons of tea per truck per day, the logistics of that are not that far out of reality................33 stops on a route per day that's 14 minutes per stop??? can that be done ???? that's a good one,

ICT Bill
10-02-2008, 04:59 PM
Bill do you have every batch of 123 tested for pathogens as well? (The thought of applying a safe - pthaogen free - product without having to worry about it every time is attractive) If I can get it working in my area, I might still use it yet...

We know exactly what goes into the ferments we do so we have complete control over the end product, there are no manure or municipal waste products used in our manufacture.

Yes, we batch test every time, it is required by some states to have accurate data on every batch. It also covers us by identifying every batch made, you are able to track almost every carton that leaves the warehouse

ICT Bill
10-02-2008, 05:05 PM
then lets get into the logistics of 8000 customers, lets just say for jokes and kittens that you are doing about 24 days work per month, that's fair??? so 24 goes int 8000 to about the 330 per day range, so the you would need to fill lets say 5 gallons per yard 330 yards a day 1650 gallons per day working out of what 10 trucks, so about 165 gallons of tea per truck per day, the logistics of that are not that far out of reality................33 stops on a route per day that's 14 minutes per stop??? can that be done ???? that's a good one,

I do understand what you are saying but the model is such a radical change for a company that has been run a certain way for many years, many locations are in industrial parks with no access to storing bulk compost.

If we can get them to make the step over to less inputs and slowly make the adjustments, look at Mr. Barefoot in Louisville, they started out using our products and look where they are now. I am hoping that model will work a lot of places, the biggest issue is getting the companies to step out of the "business as usual" mode

Kiril
10-02-2008, 05:06 PM
I mean almost $160,000. on tea thats out of hand..........

I agree ....... compost does a soil good.

JDUtah
10-06-2008, 07:43 PM
Update on my thatch thing if anyone cares...

I opened them to add water. Some of the fungus looks like it has died off in a few of them. I smelt them and they are anaerobic(smells like ammonia). Two of the fish samples and one molasses one. The controls all smell fine and currently show the strongest fungal colonies. Because denitrification has taken place the inputs IMO are basically void, and the test needs to be redone. (with more ventilation, I guess 8 quarter holes in each container isn't enough.)

So I will redo it after I am done testing one more thing...

It appears so far that in this case moisture is the deciding factor... I am going to leave all of them open and only sprinkle the water on half of each sample daily. See if breakdown is promoted on the side with daily water sprinkling...

Kiril
10-07-2008, 12:24 AM
So I will redo it after I am done testing one more thing...

Just do it outside, dump the containers.

JDUtah
10-07-2008, 01:01 AM
Just do it outside, dump the containers.

Now why must you go and put reason into this? lol

I want to keep the tests separate somehow... the problem now is that it is getting colder. Almost turned the heater on last night...

Smallaxe
10-07-2008, 09:00 AM
So both the molasses and the fish speeded up the use of resources, mainly water in this case. The anaerobic thing is unfortunate but the acceleration confirms we are on the right track. Any e-coli? :)

treegal1
10-07-2008, 10:47 AM
Now why must you go and put reason into this? lol

I want to keep the tests separate somehow... the problem now is that it is getting colder. Almost turned the heater on last night...jd they compost in Alaska!!! and some really great stuff i am told!!!

also we are going to plant our vegetable plots soon( its still 90 deg) and we have been toying with the idea of laying some black poly pipe in the beds and also under/ in a large compost pile as well as have a solar loop, with a clear cover, laid on the ground with some black dirt, to trap and hold some heat( tromb effect) that way we can have some of the warmer vegs do good all year. same thing with the mist house we are putting together water from the river will cool it, in your case warm, what ever structure you want. maybe in your area it would be well water that would stay warm, just a thought, oh well, got to get some sun, maybe surf later the waves are up........

Kiril
10-07-2008, 11:51 AM
jd they compost in Alaska!!! and some really great stuff i am told!!!

also we are going to plant our vegetable plots soon( its still 90 deg) and we have been toying with the idea of laying some black poly pipe in the beds and also under/ in a large compost pile as well as have a solar loop, with a clear cover, laid on the ground with some black dirt, to trap and hold some heat( tromb effect) that way we can have some of the warmer vegs do good all year. same thing with the mist house we are putting together water from the river will cool it, in your case warm, what ever structure you want. maybe in your area it would be well water that would stay warm, just a thought, oh well, got to get some sun, maybe surf later the waves are up........

Warmer temps are good, but how do you plan on compensating for shorter day lengths?

Kiril
10-07-2008, 11:53 AM
I want to keep the tests separate somehow...

Why not a grid laid out with marking paint or strings?

Smallaxe
10-07-2008, 07:28 PM
Even just pick a section of ground that you don't like in a yard and start playing around with it?

I did that with my troublesome terrace and eventually just did a fresh horse manure drench. :) I had perpetually failed with syn. fert. and the compost was good for a couple of months.

When the habitiat is suitable for e-coli, perhaps I have now innoculated that ground with it, it will emerge and grow. People used fresh cow, sheep, and horse manure in their vegetable gardens for thousands of years. Is e-coli one of our experiments in genetic engineering?

We have finally gotten great moisture again and the ground is not yet frozen so that area looks great at the moment. Research experiment as success!?!?
I still like to hear about what folks are doing in petri dishes and/or tupperware, so that the next field test has some direction.

The trick is, of course, to know what the evidence is telling you , rather than what one might feel the evidence is telling them.

JDUtah
10-07-2008, 08:07 PM
the biggest probem now is lawn space.. next year my lawn is already going to be divided into sections for a 1 year nutrient application test...

If only I had 4 acres....

treegal1
10-07-2008, 08:49 PM
Warmer temps are good, but how do you plan on compensating for shorter day lengths?solar and LED lights to force the things we need to, this area is a standard winter crop area. got some real cool led pacs in the works, I can change the light wave length, or color if needed, 1 500 watt panel and a battery pack will run 900 watts for 3 1/2 hours

treegal1
10-07-2008, 11:17 PM
oh wait one second you just said that with the added inputs you had an increase in the microbial activity that resulted in all the O2 getting used up, so there was a net increase in the microbes?? would that be fair to say, more??

JDUtah
10-07-2008, 11:50 PM
Yes... I pulled them apart and smelt the middle today... all three fish and two (maybe three) of the molasses went anaerobic. The controls all smelled normal... Disclaimer: my sniffer was the 'testing tool' so take it for what it's worth.

I want to do it again... next year. In the containers still, but open this time... so we will see...

treegal1
10-08-2008, 12:03 AM
dude rose petals or some other flower for the sniffer, oh, thats hard core,wow. how about some test strips for the aquarium at wally world, they have a wide selection some times,,,,,, hint no patchouli try lavender or rose petals.LOLOL

Smallaxe
10-08-2008, 08:59 AM
JD,
Just do other peoples lawns. Serves 2 purposes.

1] Their lawns are the ones you want results on.

2] Different factors coming into play with each lawn.

My troublesome terrace was a client's lawn, just like all my research. I don't keep lawn myself. Its all garden and piles of various materials.

growingdeeprootsorganicly
10-11-2008, 04:58 PM
jd,
what did you learn in your experiment? one thing should be apparent....lots of o2 is vital for rapidly growing aerobes

JDUtah
10-11-2008, 05:28 PM
more air...
do it again...
moisture seems to be major factor...
maybe increased decomposition with additives but really it voided out before I could determine that one for sure...