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View Full Version : The Rent vs. Sell Thread


tdf
09-18-2008, 08:48 PM
I would like to hear in detail how you guys operate.

They way I do it is I charge a first year price for a decorating service which includes the "tools" used to decorate. The second year I charge 2/3 of the first years price as a discount for repeat business. I state on my contract that all of the "tools" used to decorate the home are my property and I will replace defective materials before reinstallation. So I guess I really don't rent or sell them. My total price includes the initial cost of the lights, labor,cost to replace the lights, service during the season, takedown, storage,overhead/profit,etc. So I am covered each year for replacing the lights and going back to service problems during the season even if I don't have to do either.

I don't mind (actually I am glad to) replace product and give people service when needed because I have already charged them for it. I don't argue or try to get out of it, I take care of them and they are very happy with my level of service.
I sell a decorating service not lights. Does anyone else operate anywhere close to this? I am kinda new to this (3 years) so if I am not thinking about something that might bite me later please bring it up.


Thanks TF

hotrod1965
09-18-2008, 09:49 PM
I do it just like you do, except I'm at 70% for the second year, and am thinking about going to 75% due to crazy fuel prices and increased product costs.

I dont separate out the bill though. I have a strand of lights priced at "x" depending what it is, and that price has everything lumped into it.

Personally, I think doing it this way gives the best customer service.

DeepGreenLawn
09-18-2008, 10:01 PM
That is the plan that I have found to sound the best and what I plan on doing myself... how have the first 3 years gone so far?

Any advice for someone who is working on starting their first year?

tdf
09-18-2008, 10:52 PM
I don't seperate the bill either. I say approximately 250 ft of icicle lights across the front roof lines x dollars. Clear mini lights in 6 shrubs in the front yard X dollars. Wreaths with bows on 6 windows across the front of house X dollars. Then I total it at the bottom. If I install mini lights in the shrub and the customer calls and says he thinks it needs more lights in the 4th shrub I go and put more lights and the 4th shrub. In other words, I don't count lights and say I put 8 thousands lights on those shrubs like the contracts says. I sell him the shrubs lit with mini lights. If he needs more,, I add more.


TF

hotrod1965
09-19-2008, 12:03 AM
Well, I sell all high end LED, so I don't typically go giving things away.. But I do over estimate and then bill for actual lights installed. Can't say anyone has ever told us they need more lights!

tdf
09-19-2008, 01:00 AM
Those LED lights are expensive. When we are talking mini light sets or extra cord it is no big deal to have left overs. I imagine with the cost of LEDs you watch thing a little closer. I am kicking around the idea of going LED but not sure yet. Do you find that you save alot not having as many ext cords, splitters, timers,etc.. that it evens out the extra cost of the LEDs?

As far as the example before with the shrub, It was hypothetical. I was just making the point that I am charging to decorate the shrub however many lights it takes. I have figured out how many lights I think it will take, added extra just in case, used this to come up with my price, but all he knows is x dollars to light it up. I was just trying to say that it will be to his satisfaction. If he wants more or less lights on the shrub that is fine and it is the same price. I sold him a decorated shrub not x number of lights. I think the key to operating like this is charging enough up front. I haven't had anyone want more (or less for that matter) lights either but if I did I would be Johnny on the spot because I have already charged them for it ahead of time.

tdf
09-19-2008, 01:18 AM
The first three have been ok. I have learned a lot. I have a lot to learn. I wish I could have hit this thing hard from the beginning, but I was doing other things. This industry is still in its infancy so we still have time to really get established before having a lot of competition from firemen, kids, illegals, etc.. At least in my area it is still new. I can't find anyone else offering it. I think you are doing good by coming to this forum. It sounds like hotrod and David have this thing down. The only advise I have is don't be afraid to charge alot. Make sure you have your sh*t together, and don't think you have to get every customer. This service is not for everyone. Lets keep it that way.

hotrod1965
09-19-2008, 01:33 AM
This is good advice. Being organized and professional makes people want to do business with you. You will find most people wont pay for this, but the few that will make it worth it.

The first three have been ok. I have learned a lot. I have a lot to learn. I wish I could have hit this thing hard from the beginning, but I was doing other things. This industry is still in its infancy so we still have time to really get established before having a lot of competition from firemen, kids, illegals, etc.. At least in my area it is still new. I can't find anyone else offering it. I think you are doing good by coming to this forum. It sounds like hotrod and David have this thing down. The only advise I have is don't be afraid to charge alot. Make sure you have your sh*t together, and don't think you have to get every customer. This service is not for everyone. Lets keep it that way.

hotrod1965
09-19-2008, 01:34 AM
You can hook more sets together, so you use less cords and less circuits. You can alos use lighter gage wire which saves money.

But we charge more to make up the difference.


Those LED lights are expensive. When we are talking mini light sets or extra cord it is no big deal to have left overs. I imagine with the cost of LEDs you watch thing a little closer. I am kicking around the idea of going LED but not sure yet. Do you find that you save alot not having as many ext cords, splitters, timers,etc.. that it evens out the extra cost of the LEDs?

As far as the example before with the shrub, It was hypothetical. I was just making the point that I am charging to decorate the shrub however many lights it takes. I have figured out how many lights I think it will take, added extra just in case, used this to come up with my price, but all he knows is x dollars to light it up. I was just trying to say that it will be to his satisfaction. If he wants more or less lights on the shrub that is fine and it is the same price. I sold him a decorated shrub not x number of lights. I think the key to operating like this is charging enough up front. I haven't had anyone want more (or less for that matter) lights either but if I did I would be Johnny on the spot because I have already charged them for it ahead of time.

David Gretzmier
09-20-2008, 12:30 PM
I'm still a sell fan rather than rent, mainly because the first year cost is so high. when you figure the cost of everything, plus the fact your labor is typically double the first year, and the first year is where you really figure out what is going on with thier outlets, your costs are far higher the first year. Selling the product is the only way I can recover this cost, as the customer may not be back next year. we do retain about 90-95% of customers each year, but I do not want to get stuck with lights that are used and I have to resell.

If you rent or "decrorate service" and you still own the lights, I cannot imagine looking a customer straight in the face and telling them it is more the first year. It is simply not fair to say they are renting but charge them more to "cover" the first year costs. If you want to rent, fine, but accept the risk that goes with it. You are taking a gamble that the customer will use you year after year, pay you more yearly for rental/install than what the yearly cost would be for a rehang price on a sell then rehang price.

It would be like Blockbuster charging the first person that rents the DVD more than everyone else, to cover the cost of making the DVD. or a Rent a car place charging more for the first few folks who rent the car.

if you rent, then RENT. If you sell, then SELL. but a hybrid system insults the intelligence of the customer. To ask them to hedge your bet on renting is unethical.

DeepGreenLawn
09-20-2008, 01:45 PM
I see it as more of a fee for the custom fitting. The next years from then on you don't have to custom fit the lights, they are ready to go requiring less time and labor.

tdf
09-20-2008, 02:29 PM
I don't think it unethical because everything is upfront and disclosed. They make the choice if they want the service under my terms. I have not been dishonest to them which would bring in ethics. I look at it as I am charging a price to decorate in year 1 and they either want me to do it or not. If they want my service the next year I give them a 1/3 discount. It is my business why I am giving the discount and they still have a choice to make. I am not saying the way I am doing it is the best, but in no way is it unethical.

David, You probably have posted before how you do it in detail, but would you again just to make this thread more complete. Being guys who have alot of experience in this business I value your and hotrods opinions input.

Thanks TF

hotrod1965
09-20-2008, 05:58 PM
I would argue that selling them is far more unethical than renting the lights to them. I give them a price for the first year, then because it Is less labor the following year I charge less, and then if something goes bad I replace it. its a true service.

You sell the lights at a huge mark up, which is fine. But how do I know as your customer that you are taking the best care of those lights. Now a few years go by and now I have to pay you more money to buy marked up light again. plus the labor.

How fair is that to your customer who trust you to take care of their commercial grade lights to ask for more money after a few years.

I have picked up afew customers because they are sick of the money pits that sell them the lights and then the labor. they like the stability

Dave, you can talk about price and products that keep you in business. But we both know that out standing customer service is what keeps companies around.

I feel, as do my customers that renting is the best customer service.

DeepGreenLawn
09-20-2008, 07:16 PM
if you have great customer service, people will be willing to pay more. I gave an estimate for treating a yard that TGCL was currently taking care of. I came priced about 1/4 more than TGCL, they didn't like that at the beginning. They called me back, I am overseeding this fall and will probably start the year next year treating their lawn. They didn't say a word about the costs, they asked about a more expensive seed and I rebutted that with my own personal experience. Now, not only do I have their service, but I also have their trust, they took my advice, I will be out Monday doing what I suggested...

I plan on taking this into the lights as well... charge more, not too much more, but offer the best service and expertise possible... hint all the questions... people will pay more if they feel you are trustworthy and they feel you are not trying to cheat them... (you keep hitting them up for money)

David Gretzmier
09-20-2008, 07:39 PM
Tell you what- you guys go ahead and rent. Charge more the first year if you want. it is wrong. if you don't want to listen to me, then don't. If it works for you, go for it.

As customers let you go, You will reach a point where you use used lights on new customers, and you are going to charge them to modify someone elses lights. It is wrong too. If you choose to rent, you should choose to accept the costs that go along with it, not pass it on to customers. My customers know thier product will wear out and need to be replaced. They know they are buying them the first year. They know my warranty, my service, and my reputation. Our product is the best out there, and lasts about 6-8 years, not a few. when I have to replace product before it should have run out, like mini-lights, I don't charge the customer for it. they pay my regualr rehang price until year 6-8.

I have reached the point where product is wearing out and having to be replaced. Has anyone else here have? By selling the product, all of my customers are ready for it. Are you by renting? Can you honestly tell me you are going to ask the longtime customer that have rented from you for 6-8 years for more money to buy new product? what about the folks you put used lights on thier houses?

DeepGreenLawn
09-20-2008, 07:57 PM
I believe the replacing worn out lights deal comes with the product... you replace them as needed at no extra cost...

Keep in mind I am still working this out for myself so I have no experience either way...

hotrod1965
09-20-2008, 08:59 PM
I I won't argue that dave has some great points. but I will argue that you have some old school thinking.

in the world today, we are using more and more resources. lights are made of metal and plastic which is made from oil. By re-using lights you are doing the planet a favor, and no customer has ever disputed that with me. I use the best, most innovative energy efficient lights on the market period.
It is our responsibility as both business owners and Americans to do things like this for the better of all of us.

So you go sell your 100 year old light design to your customers.

DeepGreenLawn
09-20-2008, 09:08 PM
crap.............

David Gretzmier
09-21-2008, 12:09 AM
my reusing point is this- who pays for the product when it wears out? If you ask the fist person who buys from you to pay more the first year, and you say that helps cover your first year costs, then fine. you use that product for 3 years, "renting" it to them. then the next customer comes along- they get that product, modified. do you charge them the same upcharge as the person who got them new? why? they are used, already bulbed and clipped, it should be way easier, but get this, they got hours on them buddy.

you are ok for a couple of years, but then ,2 years go by, they move on and you got lights that are now 5 years old. You want to put them on yet another new customer? news flash- in year 5 and 6 you'll start seeing some c-9 socket failure. just a little, 1 out of 150, one out of 200 or so, but is it fair to put these lights on a new customer and charge them more the first year? bulb failure is starting to get noticable too, about one out of every 15-20. but go ahead and reuse them.

year 7 and 8 c-9 socket failure starts to show up more. one out of every 75-100, sometimes more. whether you use LED's or incandescant, a socket failure is a service call. most wires start pulling out of mini-light sockets then too. LED or not, those sets are done. on incandescant, You really need to do an entire bulb replacement in year 7 or 8, or face the fact that you will do 4 service calls and replace 7-8 bulbs each time. you can keep replacing sockets for awhile, and we do that, but no way am I putting these on a new customers house after 6-8 years on someone elses house. my long-time customer is also willing to pay for these service calls because they have ownership in them for 6-8 years and understand these things are getting old. Renters won't do it and should not be asked to.

I'm all for reuse and recycle, but I've seen the life cycle and witnessed it coming to an end for several customers. I've seen cracks in wire insulation, sockets that melt when the connection is getting bad, and these were top of the line Bethlehem/GKI lights 8 years ago.

If you guys think it makes business sense to set up a system in which you put used lights on a house and you are on the hook for the replacement cost, go for it. I cannot reccomend it and it is not for me.

Do what you want, but I know light sets wear out, not just the bulb, but the wire insulation, the sockets, etc. These are temporary light sets for a reason. I've watched all the renters in my area go out of business, and a new crop just came in last year. I'll let you know how they are doing in a few years.

hotrod1965
09-21-2008, 12:55 AM
Wow, this is all good stuff.
I will clarifiy how we do things. The strand lights get reused, but they are good stuff that we plan on lasting 8 years. some will last more some will last less. But why throw them out before their life ends?

For C9 you most likely don't want to reuse the wire if it is older than thre years old. What Dave says is true, plus it is a pain to re cut and patch.... you are beter off puling the bulbs and cutting new wire. You can send the old wire off to be recycled.

again, everyone thinks the way we do it is great, this is from manufactures right down to our clients. I didn't just pull this system out of my magic hat, I talked to people and made the decission to rent.

I will leave with a quote from a client of mine. "I don't care what the lights are, I am renting them, I just want it to look good".

This guy lives in a million plus dollar house.

turf hokie
09-21-2008, 11:11 AM
It is a good open discussion.

I disagree with David in that it is dishonest or wrong to re-use the lights on a new customer if you have used lights from a cancelled customer and they are still very much viable lights.

We gurantee our service, that includes any and all repairs and replacements. So for me to put "used" lights on a house that are old and unreliable will only hurt me b/c of service calls. If I feel that I will not have any problems then I will "recycle" them. My customers are not paying for new lights, used lights or anything in between. My customers are paying for a look, a service, a worry free holiday display.

I also do not charge an "upcharge" in year one. You get my price, it is all inclusive, sign a long term deal (more than 1 year) I will gurantee to not raise your price for the duration of the contract. Matter of fact if you take advantage of early bird discounts and pre-pay options then you will actually pay less in following years. This does not mean I am charging an "upcharge" in year one but I want to get paid quickly and install the lights early in years 2,3,4 etc. so therefore will offer incentives to this effect after year 1. Unless you contact us early enough initially and you could qualify for these discounts in the first year.

I like to think that it is really personal preference to rent or own. But I feel that renting is easier, cleaner and more straight forward. I also believe that you can make more money renting over the life of the product even if it looks like year one may be at a lower margin.

tdf
09-21-2008, 07:10 PM
I said earlier that I don't feel like I fall into the sell or rent cat because I don't have any plans to give someone used lights when they pay the first year price. i really haven't thought about what I will do with used product when a customer cancels service but I wouldn't feel right charging a person the first year price and giving them used product. My idea is I will give the person new product the first year and every year after this charge 2/3 price while replacing any lights as needed as long as we do business. I specify that I own the lights mainly so they will not think of having joe landscaper put them up later down the road.

David Gretzmier
09-22-2008, 01:16 AM
I will say that at year 8 in this area I am glad that I am a seller and not a renter. my costs for replacing lights would be going up like a rocket. As a seller, I am selling people new product and getting rid of the old. 6-8 years ago I had a lot less new customers per year, but in the past 3 years I have been adding 25-40 clients per year. shooting for 50 new this year. As time goe on, I will be selling new product to 25-40 rehang customers, along with the new customers. Selling creates a much larger revenue company in my opinion over time, and protects you from replacement costs when the time comes.

hotrod1965
09-22-2008, 10:13 AM
What I do, and what you need to do as a renter is have your replacment cost built into your rehang price. I didn't just pull my 70% rehang price out of thin air. It has replacment costs built in. Now the trick is to not be like the federal government and spend that reserve on other things.
Also, remember that the odds that you will have to replace everything in one single year is pretty low.

Also, I would only recommend renting if you are using LED lights. LED's will take a beating a little better than incandescent. If I was installing incandescent, I would be selling!

NE Landscape Lighting
09-28-2008, 08:52 PM
I sell to residential but i am torn on what to do for large commercial properties. I have a large commercial property that might want a different display each year? If i sell to them they are stuck with the same look each year. Does it make sense to "Lease/Rent" to commercial properties only? (3 year lease/rent)

David Gretzmier
09-29-2008, 12:17 AM
so...You'd rather get stuck with what they installed last year?

TPendagast
09-29-2008, 12:40 AM
Its like this, YOU pay for the inventory. So whos to say whats "used". It's not used it's in stock.

If customer A "buys" the stock, but cancels then truthfully they get to keep the lights.

The way I do it is the customer buys the lights in year one with the cost of install and take down and storage.
Year two they get a return client price break like others have said.
As long as they are my customers the lights are under warranty, and problems I fix it, no extra charge its warranyt, if i need new strands I buy them, etc.

But if the customer cancels, they are MY lights, so its actually the customer buying the deocrating SERVICE although the start up cost in year one does cover the lights etc.
Alot of times the customers change or upgrade or alter previous years decorations. so its all from INSTOCK stuff, unless its not instock then I make sure my costs are covered.

I make more money in year two and three etc with customers than year one because of the start up of materials involved, but that woul;d be true with a maid service or window washing company, the client doesnt BUY your lawn mower or your truck, the deocrations are "equipment" the way I do it.

David Gretzmier
09-29-2008, 07:00 PM
I agree anyone can do what they want with thier business. You own it, you run it.

I don't agree with a customer paying more for the first year if they are not buying the lights. Anybody that rents anything to anybody, it costs you the same to rent it.

If united rentals asked me to pay more for equipment ( and by this I mean equipment) the first time I rented something and charged me less after that, I would want to know why.

If I rented a car and they charged me more the first time, same thing.

renting a movie.

renting an apartment, a house, a travel trailer, or whatever.

In no way would anything else you rent be fair if you were expected to cover the cost of the item you are renting.

It is simply wrong to ask a rental customer to cover the cost of your equipment, inventory, additional time to install the first year, or whatever you want to call it.

if the business owns the lights when service is cancelled, then you are renting to them and they should not have to pay more for year one.

If they pay more the first year than the next, they paid for SOMETHING extra that first year and they should get it back.

show me another business that charges more the first rental period, and covers the cost of the product they "rent" in the first rental, then charges less in the next few rental periods, and I will accept my argument and logic as flawed. If you can't find any other rental business to support your side of the argument, then consider the possibility you may be wrong in what you are doing.

Just because customers may be willing to go along with it does not make it right.

Most of you guys who are saying you are going to maintain these lights as long as folks pay have not been in business long enough to experience the costs of what happens when lights wear out.

I have.

turf hokie
09-29-2008, 07:18 PM
I agree with you David. Some of the posts on here that state they are renting but charge more the first year are indeed not truly renting.

We charge the same every year. We dont drop our prices just because it is year 2. Our structure includes incentives that allow us to install early and incentives to pre-pay us be X date. This is available to a first year customer as well if they get to us earlier enough. Matter of fact we have sold 4 jobs the past 2 weeks that took advantage of the incentives. But now that will be their price next year if they continue with the incentives, if they choose to not pre-pay or want a later install date they will lose the incentive and then would actually pay MORE in the following season.

We may not make quite as much in year one as a person selling the product but I feel we will make more over the life of the product by renting and not selling. This is all predicated on pricing the service properly and accounting for replacements, services, repairs etc.

TPendagast
09-30-2008, 02:15 AM
ahhh you are missing something, My customers do NOT pay for replacements, service, repairs etc.

They pay what they pay. IF they sign up for additional years or even add on to what they had last year they qualify for a discount for repeat business based on the fact I do not have to spend time and money adverising or estimating new customers.

There is considerable costs involved in attaining new customers, if you have a full customer list, you do not need to advertise for more, unless you have a growth plan. There for your second year customer costs you less to keep, than to go get a new customer.

I do not need to charge as much, to make the same margin in year two as I did in year one.

If you sell a customer the lights, and say they want green ones instead of blue and white in year two, no biggie, i trade string for string.

If in year two they have bad bulbs, they dont pay for new bulbsm or service calls.

They pay one price to have their house fully decorated for the season. Repairs, replacements, trouble shooting etc, no extra charge.

Each thing they want has a price attached to it that is the cost to hang, maintain, retrieve and store.

IF they sign up or request the same exact thing next year, the items are already listed, inventoried and set up to re-hang, I dont have to redesgn, figure out how many strings go where or what.
Each tupper-ware tub is labeled (jones front left, jones from right) there for admin, training, set up etc is alot less as well ;i can hang that customer much faster than it took in year one, and we have a design/plan drawing with what the house looks like and where everything goes already done.

Now if the customer doesnt want to continue services into year two for example, than those lights etc are recirculated into regular inventory, the Tubs are set aside for new customers and I can use that inventory for other customers.
If that customer then calls me back in year two in say november wanting xmas lights all over again (after They didnt renew and their stock has been returned to inventory) then they need to pay year one prices all over again.

Its not so much as I charge them MORE for year one, as it is year to is easier, faster, and less cost to me, and therefor that savings is passed along to the customer.

I would much rather hang already laid out lights for a return customer than go through the set up of a new customer any season!

Also return customers who say want to add 10 strings of lights thy didnt have in a previous year still get th 2nd year price savings even on the new upgrades, because they are a return customer.

But if the customer say down sizes their decorations in year 2 say by 50% and then in year 3 goes back to the year one set up, those light strings etc , had already been taken off their order and put back into circulation for other customers, so going back up like that would cost year one prices because I have to relay out the entire job (tubs back to jones left, jones right etc)

But the again it may depend, if I do full serivce for this customer (landscape, irrigation, snow removal and holiday lights) I may just take the bite and deal with it.

So likeI Said its not actually charging them more for year one so much as it is successive years are simply less expensive.

The benefit to the "Rent"to the client is they dont own the lights, so they dnt pay for the maintenance.
The Benefit to rent to our company is johhny side job, doesnt get to hang our professional quality lights with our professional quality drawing and directions and setup by underbidding us on our labor to install and retrieve, fi the customer wants to go with someone else, that is their choice, but they dont get to do so with our intellectual property (i.e. product selection, layout and design)

David Gretzmier
09-30-2008, 04:45 PM
Dang, I am the king of long posts and that last one left me tired. I get most of what you are saying. I agree it takes more money and time to do the first year, seller or rental. I just believe that a renter should not have to pay more the first year. I also believe that the owner of the lights should pay for thier maintenance after the 4th install, as that is when bulbs start to go. I especially do not want to own beyond year 7 or 8, when sockets and wire start to go.

Theoretically, renters should be making more than me in years 2-7 as they will really need to start using that money to buy new lights in year 7, 8 and 9.

turf hokie
09-30-2008, 08:44 PM
What I got from the last post is this... he rents but his business model is that of sales......and if someone skips a year they are back to square one....

My theory, more power to you, run it like you want but that system is neither renting nor owning, it is a hybrid.

TPendagast
10-01-2008, 02:26 AM
the "program" is like a warranty really. Lets say you figure on x amount of transmissions going out on chevys before 36,000 miles.

So you charge that amount of recovery into your base cost of every chevy.

Well this works the same way, a customer pays for a warranty whether they use it or not.

So you hope most customers won't need the warranty.

I rarely see a customer keep everything the same for 7 or 8 or 9 years.

I think our oldest customer is 6, but ive been doing this a while for other people, I just never have seen the same house the same way over a decade long period.

Pretty much, most of my customers stuff is kept pretty new, by year 4 they have the majority of the stuff swtiched out (if have gone to leds yet)
with the exception of extension cords, which last and long as I can get them to. With the number of cords I have running around I really have no idea how old any of them are, depending on who uses what and ran over what and borrowed it to run their saw this summer... I really dont know how old any of them are.

IMO I find if you charge the customer for service calls they feel like to are nickle and diming them and they become resistant to singing up continually.

Im not really in this business to sell lights, Im here to find some way to keep busy during the holiday season, ad well holiday lights are kinda fun.

The only reason I dont install customer supplied lights, is well, I think we all know the reason...
It's the law of "you touched it"...these $3 light strings I bought at a garage sale were fine until you touched them.

Otherwise I could really care less what I hang (however I love minis and run from jobs that want c5s)


Essentially, as long as I install your lights every year, its a life time warranty

I do my landscape installs the same way, we have lifetime warrantys on our landscape installs for as long as you keep us as your maintenance company as well.

But if you sub out the spray or the irrigation because you find something cheaper than that thing, and anything affected by it is no longer under warranty.

Most of my clients really want somone to handle their stuff ad thy dont want suprise bills. So we just charge upfront for what we will need to operate.

And agin we dont charge MORE for the first year we charge the right price for the first year and give them a break on sucessive years.

The difference is year 1 is x and years 2-4 is x-25%.

What you think I am doing is year 2-4 is X and year 1 is X + 25% and it is not that way.

hotrod1965
10-01-2008, 02:46 PM
When will this madness end!!!!
We've covered selling, renting and hybrids and how they work, and showed that they all work... So maybe we move on to other topics, cause no one is ever going to be right or wrong on this one, because there isn't a right or wrong!

David Gretzmier
10-01-2008, 10:20 PM
amen ! *trucewhiteflag*