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NightLightingFX
09-19-2008, 12:33 AM
As a request from an architect, I need to find a well light that has the lamp set very deep. This well light fixture needs to be fully contained and preferably made of brass and has a grate cover. I am thinking the lamp needs to be a least an 2.5 inches deeper than the top lens. Is there anything like that out there?
~Ned

S&MLL
09-19-2008, 12:43 AM
I'm sure there is. Call CopperMoon. I know they have one of the deepest out there. Personally I would actually prefer them to raise it a little bit more. If you want tomorrow I have one on the shelf I can drop a Mr in there and measure for you. But If it still isnt deep enough for you. I'm sure they can trim down the mounting stems and retap them lower. If not I can do it for you.

NightLightingFX
09-19-2008, 09:42 AM
Thanks for the input. CopperMoon was one I was thinking about, and I just remembered Atom has one also. I would prefer to work with CopperMoon. I met Doug the owner of CopperMoon at the last AOLP meeting - I real nice guy and has great products.

S&MLL
09-19-2008, 11:33 AM
Did you want me to measure that for you?

NightLightingFX
09-19-2008, 01:53 PM
S&MLL,
Thanks for the effort. Don't worry about it. I had to make an order for some of CopperMoon's CM360s and so I added on a CM390 to try out. What do you think of the CM360? It's lamp isn't set very deep - maybe you would like that fixture better.
~Ned

S&MLL
09-19-2008, 02:26 PM
Ive used both I like both of them. Very solid construction. I have not had them in the ground for more then a year so I cant comment on the longevity of the wells. But they seems solid. Plus doug and wade are great guys over there.

JoeyD
09-19-2008, 05:17 PM
HEy Ned, we sell an 18" deep well light. We got what you need. Contact me on monday as I am working remotley.

NightLightingFX
09-19-2008, 07:36 PM
I think the perfect deep lamp well light fixture might be Cast's "MR-16 Well light"
~Ned

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
09-20-2008, 02:56 AM
Ned. I would recommend you look at the Nightscaping Vermeer or if you really want deep the Bruteliter. Both are cast brass, never leak (in my experience) and are guaranteed for life. Excellent products.

JoeyD
09-21-2008, 10:52 PM
Ned I got your email...I will get you info in the AM! Its bassiclly a 18" F225 or Apollo

Tomwilllight
09-22-2008, 10:50 AM
As a request from an architect, I need to find a well light that has the lamp set very deep. This well light fixture needs to be fully contained and preferably made of brass and has a grate cover. I am thinking the lamp needs to be a least an 2.5 inches deeper than the top lens. Is there anything like that out there?
~Ned

Ned,

If you are working with an Architect, you may want to offer them a spec grade unit. Look at B-K, Winona and Vision 3. All three will meet the requirements.

Tom

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
09-22-2008, 11:09 AM
Specification Grade or Architectural Grade fixtures are available from a wide variety of manufacturers. Generally these are top of the line components that come along with detailed cut sheets, photometrics, full installation instructions, lifetime warranties, approval certifications, and are constructed from the finest materials. They are the best of the best so to speak, with documentation that supports the product.

I saw this come up in another thread... the question of what exactly is a Spec. Grade product? I don't think there is a cut and dry answer to this question. If there is, then please provide it for us all.

Just because a manufacturer offers a wide range of products, Like Unique, Nightscaping, etc, etc, does not mean that some of their offerings are not "Spec. Grade". It all comes down to the product quality and the supporting documentation as far as I am aware.

Have a great day.

NightLightingFX
09-22-2008, 12:02 PM
Without getting into too much detail on a public forum. I am helping an architect find a solution for a municipal project in which I will be involved. This project will need 200 fixtures so when you talk about likes of Vision2, Wionna and etc. - They are too expensive. I have decided on two fixtures that could work. CopperMoon's CM390, or Cast's MR16 Well fixture. Sorry Joey - This needs to be an MR16 fixture - we need to have the potential to use LEDs. Thanks for the input
~Ned

Tomwilllight
09-22-2008, 12:20 PM
Ned,

If you are selling to a municipality in quantity you need to be absolutely certain that the factory will back you up. Something goes wrong and you may find yourself in a difficult position.

I certainly am NOT suggesting Copper Moon or Cast are less than quality manufacturers, but at 200 units you are in a buying league you may not have experienced before. The wholesale price is not an issue when buying 200 units; you have leverage my friend.

I strongly suggest you consider more criteria than price and 2.5 inches of regression.

Tom

JoeyD
09-22-2008, 01:11 PM
No problem.......Nova would accept an LED module.........

NightLightingFX
09-22-2008, 01:23 PM
Joey,
If you had a gimble ring for the Nova and was able to place it in a par 36 well light cylinder and a glass top lens protected by a brass grate then I would be interested. That is basically what Cast has.

NightLightingFX
09-22-2008, 01:43 PM
Tom,
I agree that I can't be narrow minded about certain specs. However, regarding my discussion with the Architect, he made it clear what he wants. The Cast's MR16 Well Light fits the bill to a "T". CopperMoon has a smaller fixture and a better styled grate for allowing light through it. However, I don't know if the lamp is set deep enough for the clients liking. I am comfortable with the reputation of either of these manufactures. Another problem besides price regarding some of the Architectural Grade manufactures such as Vision3 & etc. is that the Architect will be familiar with the architectural grade manufacture - once I find the right fixture for him to use he would know how to purchase/get that fixture and could keep me out of the loop. Regarding Cast and CopperMoon Architects would be less familiar with them - better securing my place in the project. I am I being too parinoid?
~Ned

JoeyD
09-22-2008, 01:47 PM
Joey,
If you had a gimble ring for the Nova and was able to place it in a par 36 well light cylinder and a glass top lens protected by a brass grate then I would be interested. That is basically what Cast has.

We do, have had it for years..it is called the Super Nova!! You can also install an apollo debri guard over it for additional protection!!

I will get specs and what not tommorow...LEAVING FOR THE CHARGER GAME!!!! GO BOLTS!

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
09-22-2008, 02:11 PM
Ned. You should have a proper contract with that Architect. You are acting as the lighting designer on their behalf. The municipality is the client. As such, your contract with the Architect should state what your responsibilities are and what your fee is. I would charge a percentage of the final lighting system contract as my design fee.

So doing protects your time, knowledge and intellectual property. When it comes time to procure and install the system, that is another contract which will probably be directly with the municipality. They will tender bids for this component if it is over a certain dollar value. You can then enter your bid to install the system. That is how civic work goes, and the system is there to ensure integrity.

You need to check your liability insurance too... many commercial policies will have an exclusion that prohibits you from working on civic or municipal projects without first contacting the underwriter and getting a job specific rider on your policy. Make sure you check this out with your commercial insurer.

Welcome to the world of civic works contracting! Lots of hoops and tape to befuddle things.

1st things 1st.. get a design/spec contract in place with that architect! Then, I would look to using the best quality components you can source.... Civic works are used to the spec. grade pricing and there is a good reason why you want to go that way... they WILL hold the design and installation company's responsible if there are any issues what-so-ever.

Did you get the email I sent you this past weekend regarding this and the transformers etc?? I never heard back. Call me if you want to discuss more.

Tomwilllight
09-22-2008, 02:17 PM
Ned,

First, don't assume anything! What the Architect knows and wants must be filtered through your experience as a Lighting Designer.

You must think your suggestions through. You are the lighting consultant in this situation and your judgment holds legal weight. Be very careful! You are the expert and you must know EVERYTHING about placing an in-grade fixture in a public location.

Have you checked on how hot the glass on the fixture gets? Do you have a spec that tells you? What happens if a child steps on hot glass and their burned foot sticks to it? It has happened.

What happens if a child opens one of the lights you have specified and burns their hand on the lamp housing? Is the unit safe from casual entry by a determined child?

What happens if a pedestrian walks across your lights after a light rain, slips on the glass, falls and suffers a concussion? Specs will tell you if the unit can be supplied with a non slip coating.

This will be municipal project. Will there be sidewalk? Will the lights be set in concret? Will you need a pour collar? Does the unit you specify have one available. The Concrete contractor will blame you if his job is late if those collars are not there on time as expected.

Who will do the maintenance? Municipal workers? 200 lights... How many screws must be removed to change lamps? How easy is it to misplace screws? Will the fixture continue to be leak free with screws missing?

How can you make certain that a maintenance worker will put a round fixture back in the hole exactly the way you want to go back?

Tom

NightLightingFX
09-22-2008, 02:22 PM
James,
Yes, I got your e-mail. Very helpful. I was just responding to Tom's post. I don't know how any of this will play out it is still in a very inmature stage. The foundation may not like the idea of lighting the trees. As you can see this is an unfamiliar, situation for me. Thanks for the input.
~Ned

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
09-22-2008, 03:27 PM
Ned,

First, don't assume anything! What the Architect knows and wants must be filtered through your experience as a Lighting Designer.

You must think your suggestions through. You are the lighting consultant in this situation and your judgment holds legal weight. Be very careful! You are the expert and you must know EVERYTHING about placing an in-grade fixture in a public location.

Have you checked on how hot the glass on the fixture gets? Do you have a spec that tells you? What happens if a child steps on hot glass and their burned foot sticks to it? It has happened.

What happens if a child opens one of the lights you have specified and burns their hand on the lamp housing? Is the unit safe from casual entry by a determined child?

What happens if a pedestrian walks across your lights after a light rain, slips on the glass, falls and suffers a concussion? Specs will tell you if the unit can be supplied with a non slip coating.

This will be municipal project. Will there be sidewalk? Will the lights be set in concret? Will you need a pour collar? Does the unit you specify have one available. The Concrete contractor will blame you if his job is late if those collars are not there on time as expected.

Who will do the maintenance? Municipal workers? 200 lights... How many screws must be removed to change lamps? How easy is it to misplace screws? Will the fixture continue to be leak free with screws missing?

How can you make certain that a maintenance worker will put a round fixture back in the hole exactly the way you want to go back?

Tom

This is an excellent post! This is exactly what I mean by lots of Hoops and Tape. You cannot assume anything and you must think of everything when working on civic lighting systems. (remember my comment about checking with your insurance company?) If anything goes wrong you will be held accountable.

This is why those large engineering firms get the lion's share of the business... they are professionally prepared for it and have all the I's dotted and T's crossed.

Ned, I would still work away at the design and specifications of the system, (after I have a contract for such with the Architect) but if the architect or the client think that they are going to get away with some value priced system they are probably mistaken.

After you do all the research, legwork, calculations, photometrics, specifications, etc, your fee alone should be substantial. After all that work, is anyone going to take a risk installing anything less then specification grade components that have been designed and documented for the applications?

Civic lighting is expensive for a lot of reasons, and the client's know and expect that.... so "don't disappoint them".