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Keegan
09-22-2008, 11:19 AM
I just got back my first soil food web test from a new customer who used chemicals for years.
"Organism Biomass Data" are all in range or above range and the organism biomass ratio's are all low.

Should I add more fungal foods? I don't have any type of spray system to add CT.


Thanks!!

tadhussey
09-22-2008, 02:15 PM
Ratios to what are low? Are you talking about bacterial to fungal biomass ratios? I'd be more interested in total and active biomass. Can you post the tests, that would be helpful!

~Tad

JDUtah
09-23-2008, 07:41 PM
I just got back my first soil food web test from a new customer who used chemicals for years.
"Organism Biomass Data" are all in range or above range

Chemical fertilizers? You mean? (http://www.lawnsite.com/showthread.php?t=243011&highlight=salts) (sorry for the hijack, I couldn't restrain myself)

If you need more fungus add wood = sawdust application? That's what I would try. (I don't know much about the point of Fung/Bac ratios. But that might be partly because I feel they are somewhat overkill)

growingdeeprootsorganicly
09-23-2008, 10:36 PM
(I don't know much about the point of Fung/Bac ratios. But that might be partly because I feel they are somewhat overkill)



???????????????

JDUtah
09-23-2008, 11:21 PM
???????????????

What advice do you have for him to increase fungal numbers?

Or are you asking why i don't think it is relevant?

I hope you appreciate my effort Keegan.

:)

tadhussey
09-24-2008, 02:15 PM
It doesn't sound like he needs to increase biomass from what he wrote, it's the ratios that he said are low. Not sure what that mean....it could just be relative to the amounts of bacteria vs fungi in the soil and what types of plants he's selecting for.

JDUtah
09-24-2008, 07:46 PM
If you want to adjust the fungal to bacterial ratio without increasing total biomass just apply a doctor prescribed antibiotic. (that's a joke for those not inclined to discern such things. :))

But while I'm here, is there any documentation that shows
1- fungi/bacteria biomass ratios matter
2- these ratios are not variable and dependent on natural cycling (in other words they don't naturally sway back and forth)
3- what ratios are most effective (as defined so far) for each plant if any have been established
4- A STRONG argument showing the ratios determine plant health instead of the idea that certain conditions encouraging plant health might also encourage certain ratios.

Thanks. :)

tadhussey
09-24-2008, 08:00 PM
Just take a look at a plant succession chart if you're wondering why these ratios might be important. You can google it....

phasthound
09-24-2008, 08:26 PM
If you want to adjust the fungal to bacterial ratio without increasing total biomass just apply a doctor prescribed antibiotic. (that's a joke for those not inclined to discern such things. :))

But while I'm here, is there any documentation that shows
1- fungi/bacteria biomass ratios matter
2- these ratios are not variable and dependent on natural cycling (in other words they don't naturally sway back and forth)
3- what ratios are most effective (as defined so far) for each plant if any have been established
4- A STRONG argument showing the ratios determine plant health instead of the idea that certain conditions encouraging plant health might also encourage certain ratios.

Thanks. :)

Why must we do your research for you? :confused:

JDUtah
09-24-2008, 08:33 PM
Why must we do your research for you? :confused:

1- you don't have to
2- if you have actually done your own research, it wouldn't be hard to guide someone to research it for themselves
3- the research might help the original poster with his problem
4- the people arguing the point SHOULD have documentation and theory to back it up. I am not the one pushing ratios here. (any opinion I do push I back up)
5- if you don't like my questions don't respond to them

JDUtah
09-24-2008, 08:39 PM
Quick reply. Thanks Tad.

I googled it.. looks like I gotta hunt a little deeper though. I understand sucession a bit, but I have a hard time understanding why we need to know these ratios in a turf soil foodweb...

If we have our turf soil tested and find these ratios are out of balance what do we do? (which I guess is the original question anyway)

IMO balancing this ratio with CT applications is overkill (maybe a better word is ineffective) because after a CT application the fungi/bacteria ratio will balance out according to the environment of the soil. For example, if the environment favors bacteria, even a fungal dominate CT will not help because the fungi will soon be replaced by bacteria... (that is my opinion but supported by that CT golf course study in California, if I recall correctly they determined the application of CT does not significantly affect biomass ratios)

Or maybe the words 'miss the mark' would better explain my thinking of the test...
You pay to have this test performed and it tells you that your soil is not the healthiest...
But then what?

The ratio could be off for many reasons...
-Ph is too high or too low
-There is not an adequate supply of SOM
-The C:N ratio in the soil may be off
-RECENT watering practices are not conductive to the proper fungi/bacteria ratio (evidence in one sentence here (http://www.springerlink.com/content/le2ha0e7q496mx2l/))
-Your soil lacks certain minerals that encourage certain ratios

So you pay to have this test done, it tells you there is a problem but doesn't tell you what the problem is...

IMO it is more effective to perform the tests that will tell you specifically what is wrong.

If your plants are relatively healthy and don't look like there is a problem to begin with, IMO you don't need to worry about anything... after all like Kiril sometimes reminds us, we aren't growing food here. If they do look like there is a problem, perform tests that will actually tell you what the problem is.

Keegan
09-24-2008, 09:22 PM
Organism Bimass Data

Active bacteria= 54.9
Total bacteria= 580
Active Fungi= 10.9
Total Fungi= 527
all were listed as "above range"

Organism Biomass Ratio
Total Fungal : Total Bacteria=.91
Active:Total Fungal=.02
Active:Total Bacteria=.09
Active Fungal:Active Bacteria=.20
These were listed as "low"

tadhussey
09-26-2008, 02:08 PM
Those numbers seem fine to me. If your ratios are a little off for grass, I would think that it would correct itself over time. You have good active and total #'s which is the important thing in my opinion.

How are the plants doing? Is it just turf?

~Tad

treegal1
09-26-2008, 11:33 PM
fungal food are just whats needed, they are just a little low but nothing some good tea with high fungal#s would not fix, this is an OK test in my book. what is going on is there something wrong with the lawn??is it lawn??the low part is the total dead bodys in the soil, grow some more so they start to compete.

Keegan
09-27-2008, 12:00 PM
Tree,

It is a lawn that has been treated with chemicals for several years and in a couple of different spots she has a hard time getting grass to stay.

I don't have a sprayer yet to spray tea with. Is there something else besides tea that would could be used as a fungal application?

tadhussey
09-27-2008, 01:21 PM
There's a bunch of things you could do besides tea. I would consider humates first, followed by seaweed and other "protein" meals. What about re-seeding and an application of mycorrhizae at the same time?

Are there compaction problems or something else besides the previous chemicals that could be creating spot problems?

Was your lab test sampled from these areas too?

I think that AACT would be helpful in combating this, but I'd try and determine what the problem is, as your test results don't show your biological numbers to be all that bad (I've seen much worse tests over the years).