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brownsallseasonlandscape
09-25-2008, 09:19 PM
Yesterday a crew was out mowing at two homes they are sperated by 3 or 4 other homes. The crew always parks the truck at the one farther from the intersection.(there is a city bus stop @ the intersection.) The weedeater on the crew always carries a blower and his trimmer. The trimmer was said to have been left in a mulch bed about 5 ft from the road and then forgotten.

The crew return only appox. five minutes later and the weedeater was gone. They were then short a trimmer so our bosses wife drove appox. 25 min to meet the crew with a back-up from the office.

The guy that was trimming was then asked to pay the company back for the purchase of a new trimmer at a lower than new rate due to the fact that the trimmer that was stolen was not new. The individaul asked if he could go to a pawn shop and get one and he was told what to get no problem, well the pawn shop had no srm260 echo so no luck. He then decided to argue the price I explained that two paid empolyees had to take time to fix the issue one to bring them the trimmer and one to go and purchase a new one. The new one will cost 300.00 so 175.00 seems fair. The employee offered to pay 150.00 but was told no and so he quit. No big deal I need to get rid of 5 more before leaf season. So long story short is this fair or should the entire crew pay. Keep in mind the house has plenty of hiding spots for a trimmer not all of the yard is in plain sight.

topsites
09-26-2008, 01:03 AM
I am sorry, but what you are asking your employee(s) to do is against the law.

You can blame it on their own irresponsible behavior,
you can write them up for it, you may even fire someone over it,
but you can not make them pay for it.

I understand there exists a can of worms in this whole scenario as well, not only
is it possible some employee might have availed themselves of a free trimmer,
doubtful but possible, but this ex-employee could also head over to the unemployment office,
now since he quit lets just hope it's all said and done...

Entirely fair it isn't, not for either of you, such is life.
Sorry man.

brownsallseasonlandscape
09-26-2008, 06:51 AM
What is illegal about it?

Horsepower Lawns
09-26-2008, 08:28 AM
What is illegal about it?

All of it.

http://www.in.gov/dol/2345.htm
Can an employer fine an employee and take it out of his or her paycheck?

No. An employer is not permitted under Indiana law to fine an employee and deduct the amount from his/her pay.


When can my employer make deductions from my paycheck?

Indiana law requires three conditions to be met in order for a wage deduction to be valid. First, the agreement for the deduction must be in writing, signed by the employee, by its terms revocable at any time by the employee upon written notice, and agreed to in writing by the employer. Second, a copy of the deduction agreement must be delivered to the employer within ten days of its execution. Third, only certain categories of deductions are allowed, including: premiums on an insurance policy; contributions to a charitable organization; purchase price of bonds, securities or stock of the employing company; labor union dues; purchase price of merchandise sold by the employer to the employee; amount of loan made to the employee by the employer; contributions of the employee to a hospital service or medical expense plan; and payment to an employee's direct deposit account.

If you believe your employer has made a deduction that does not fall within this criteria please view the Application for Wage Investigation. You may then fill out this application and mail it to the address in the upper right hand corner. Please be advised that the Indiana Department of Labor can only pursue claims of more than thirty dollars ($30.00) and less than six thousand dollars ($6,000.00).

& that is just what I found in about 5min. looking. So if that person is sue happy you could be in trouble.

Daily Lawn/Landscape
09-27-2008, 09:40 AM
Sorry for your loss. Your company made a big mistake. Hope he does'nt take action. My guys lost a trimmer last year and it cost them their BONUS. Bet that does'nt happen again.


James

jrc lawncare
09-27-2008, 12:18 PM
What is illegal about it? You can't do that. One call to the labor board, & they would be all over that....

jrc lawncare
09-27-2008, 12:19 PM
Sorry for your loss. Your company made a big mistake. Hope he does'nt take action. My guys lost a trimmer last year and it cost them their BONUS. Bet that does'nt happen again.


James That you can do.

brownsallseasonlandscape
09-27-2008, 12:38 PM
The employee ask that it be taken from their check rather than paying the company for the loss. The employees sign a handbook saying that they are responsible for any loss that they cause. We provide locks so that everything can be locked up it is just a common sense thing. We are not deducting the money against the employees wishes. That is not the problem the problem is really the amount.

Horsepower Lawns
09-27-2008, 05:29 PM
Can an employer fine an employee and take it out of his or her paycheck?

No. An employer is not permitted under Indiana law to fine an employee and deduct the amount from his/her pay.


Even if its in the handbook, you still can't do it. If the labor dep. checks you out, it may be worse because its in the handbook.

Branch manager
09-27-2008, 09:55 PM
I agree with you guys that it isn't permissable to deduct losses or charge employees for losses. Even in cases of gross negligence and willfull destruction, you'd have to go to court and file a claim. Each state varies,so proceed cautiously. What about insurance? If you have umbrella coverage, it would most likely cover theft, whatever the cause. I agree loss of bonuses is a more effective method. Maybe use this as an opportunity for rest of crews to be more vigilant; offer bonus to crew that keeps track of all their stuff..:drinkup: as you know, bottom line, you are responsible for everything your people do while on the clock.

punt66
09-27-2008, 10:11 PM
absolutely illegal to make him pay. If he Got a flat tire would you make him pay because he was driving? Its cost of doing business. Your lucky it was just a old trimmer. You sound like someone i would ever work for. Oh and like somebody else said. Just because its in a handbook it doesnt change the law.

jwynncmi
09-28-2008, 06:23 AM
There are ways around this problem. Build a bonus fund for the crews and deduct damages from that, keeping track of which employee did the damage is crucial so that the rest of your guys know who to blame for their loss of income.

brownsallseasonlandscape
09-28-2008, 08:31 PM
Ok we will do things by the book. I didnt realize it was a problem.

Horsepower Lawns
09-28-2008, 10:02 PM
Have you made anyone pay for stuff before?
It all could come back and bite you in the ass if this person does anything about it this time.

brownsallseasonlandscape
09-29-2008, 10:30 PM
one other time but the guy was calling a friend and having them come get the equipment.

dwofford
10-01-2008, 09:25 PM
our company uses the bonuses as incentive, we have just recently started this although repairs and theft due to neglegence has not stopped but has improved. we had to hire a mechanic/shop manager just to keep track of all the equipment and repairs but that is to be expected with 13 maintance crews and 4 landscape crews and 2 irrigation crews

lawnman_scott
10-15-2008, 05:54 PM
The employee ask that it be taken from their check rather than paying the company for the loss. The employees sign a handbook saying that they are responsible for any loss that they cause. We provide locks so that everything can be locked up it is just a common sense thing. We are not deducting the money against the employees wishes. That is not the problem the problem is really the amount.
Everyone is wrong, if you prvide a way to lock it up and they didnt do it then they are responsible. As long as its in writing. Now if you provide a cable and lock, and the lock is broken, or they cut the cable, then the employee isnt responsible.

For those who say I am wrong (and I know I am right) who pays if someone steals a case of soda from the Coke driver? What if its 5? 17?400? Its the same each time, the driver.


that said: I would just eat it. If I was your hourly employee I would unlock the trailer, get the weedeater, lock the trailer, weedeat, go back unlock the trailer, get the mower, lock the trailer................... I would make you pay me back in the long run.

punt66
10-15-2008, 08:28 PM
Everyone is wrong, if you prvide a way to lock it up and they didnt do it then they are responsible. As long as its in writing. Now if you provide a cable and lock, and the lock is broken, or they cut the cable, then the employee isnt responsible.

For those who say I am wrong (and I know I am right) who pays if someone steals a case of soda from the Coke driver? What if its 5? 17?400? Its the same each time, the driver.


that said: I would just eat it. If I was your hourly employee I would unlock the trailer, get the weedeater, lock the trailer, weedeat, go back unlock the trailer, get the mower, lock the trailer................... I would make you pay me back in the long run.

An employee is not responsible for a theft. No way no how. So even though your driver should have seen the car when he pulled out into the road and didnt resulting in an accident, according to you because of his negligence he personally needs to pay? Laws against it my friend. Cant be done.

lawnman_scott
10-15-2008, 08:47 PM
An employee is not responsible for a theft. No way no how. So even though your driver should have seen the car when he pulled out into the road and didnt resulting in an accident, according to you because of his negligence he personally needs to pay? Laws against it my friend. Cant be done.
If there is a written company policy that states it has to be locked up, and the things to lock it up are provided and operational then the employee is responsible.

Find me the law that makes in illegal. Like I said before, if someone comes and cuts the lock, then obviously the employee isnt responsible. But if he has the tools to lock it up and doesnt, then its his responsibility.

punt66
10-15-2008, 09:02 PM
If there is a written company policy that states it has to be locked up, and the things to lock it up are provided and operational then the employee is responsible.

Find me the law that makes in illegal. Like I said before, if someone comes and cuts the lock, then obviously the employee isnt responsible. But if he has the tools to lock it up and doesnt, then its his responsibility.

There are laws. Call your labor department and they will tell you all about it and the penalties. A written policy does not void laws.

topsites
10-15-2008, 09:49 PM
An employee is not responsible for a theft. No way no how. So even though your driver should have seen the car when he pulled out into the road and didnt resulting in an accident, according to you because of his negligence he personally needs to pay? Laws against it my friend. Cant be done.

It's not about the responsibility because they can be fired over it,
but it's that it can't be taken out of their pay.

PTP
10-15-2008, 09:57 PM
I have a similar policy for if the employee looses or is negligent like that. I have a set price though - 1/2 of replacement value. That way, it is set in advance and the price issue is avoided.

lawnman_scott
10-15-2008, 10:55 PM
There are laws. Call your labor department and they will tell you all about it and the penalties. A written policy does not void laws.Go about 1/2 way down page 2. To the heading "computer equipment stolen off site"

http://www.pvusd.net/Departments/Business_Services/Purchasing/staff-info/documents/Stolen_Equipment_Procedure.pdf

Someone better tell the school district that they are breaking the law, well according to the lawn guy who is wrong.

punt66
10-16-2008, 05:57 AM
Children are not employees. Thats borrowed equipment. Of course if a person barrows something their responsible to keep it safe. Equipment used by a business during business hours is always the responsibility of the LCO. If your employee borrowed a blower to clean his yard and it never returned then of course he would then be responsible. Read your own postings.

lawnman_scott
10-16-2008, 07:13 AM
Children are not employees. Thats borrowed equipment. Of course if a person barrows something their responsible to keep it safe. Equipment used by a business during business hours is always the responsibility of the LCO. If your employee borrowed a blower to clean his yard and it never returned then of course he would then be responsible. Read your own postings.Well I made my argument. Even some people couldnt see that OJ was guilty. If you would bother to read the link you would see that it is procedure for EMPLOYEES to follow. Did you ever have a job before owning your company? If you are given the responsibility for equipment you are resposibile for it. If you have the means to lock it up and you dont do it, then you are responsible. End of story. Prove me wrong. I found links to back me up, but couldnt find one to prove me wrong. By the way, if you had an employee and someonc came out and gave him the $300 they owed to give to you and he threw it on the seat of the truck, who is responsible when its stolen? Does that change if he had it in the clipboard on the seat of the locked truck?.

punt66
10-16-2008, 09:39 AM
Well I made my argument. Even some people couldnt see that OJ was guilty. If you would bother to read the link you would see that it is procedure for EMPLOYEES to follow. Did you ever have a job before owning your company? If you are given the responsibility for equipment you are resposibile for it. If you have the means to lock it up and you dont do it, then you are responsible. End of story. Prove me wrong. I found links to back me up, but couldnt find one to prove me wrong. By the way, if you had an employee and someonc came out and gave him the $300 they owed to give to you and he threw it on the seat of the truck, who is responsible when its stolen? Does that change if he had it in the clipboard on the seat of the locked truck?.

How does a scumbag murderer have anything to do with it. Like i said, if an employee takes equipment home on their time it becomes their responsibility. On the job, no way no how. I dont need to spend time looking up laws i have already seen and known. And after owning a construction company for 11 years and managing 3 crews i know alot about labor laws. But thanks for your input.

lawnman_scott
10-16-2008, 01:12 PM
How does a scumbag murderer have anything to do with it. Like i said, if an employee takes equipment home on their time it becomes their responsibility. On the job, no way no how. I dont need to spend time looking up laws i have already seen and known. And after owning a construction company for 11 years and managing 3 crews i know alot about labor laws. But thanks for your input.You may know alot, but beleive it or not you dont know everything. You are WRONG.

What does OJ have to do with it? Well they made the case and even an idiot could see he was guilty. I made my case too..........

punt66
10-16-2008, 04:35 PM
You may know alot, but beleive it or not you dont know everything. You are WRONG.

What does OJ have to do with it? Well they made the case and even an idiot could see he was guilty. I made my case too..........

haha ok, i never said i know everything. I just sent an email to the Department of Labor asking them for the answer to the question and which law on the book protects the employees against such practices. We will see how WRONG i am. hahah

lawnman_scott
10-16-2008, 05:47 PM
haha ok, i never said i know everything. I just sent an email to the Department of Labor asking them for the answer to the question and which law on the book protects the employees against such practices. We will see how WRONG i am. hahah
Read this. Whats that at the end of #3. All those letters and numbers. Im no expert but it looks to me like a law, or a bill number. You do see that my link has .gov at the end right?

http://www.dhh.louisiana.gov/offices/publications/pubs-103/Employee%20Acceptance%20of%20Responsiblity%20for%20Property.pdf

Horsepower Lawns
10-16-2008, 06:39 PM
Read this. Whats that at the end of #3. All those letters and numbers. Im no expert but it looks to me like a law, or a bill number. You do see that my link has .gov at the end right?

http://www.dhh.louisiana.gov/offices/publications/pubs-103/Employee%20Acceptance%20of%20Responsiblity%20for%20Property.pdf

If you do a little looking around you will find most states don't have to follow state law. Yes, that is stupid, but its the law.

punt66
10-16-2008, 06:47 PM
Read this. Whats that at the end of #3. All those letters and numbers. Im no expert but it looks to me like a law, or a bill number. You do see that my link has .gov at the end right?

http://www.dhh.louisiana.gov/offices/publications/pubs-103/Employee%20Acceptance%20of%20Responsiblity%20for%20Property.pdf

Thats from a hospital handbook. The #3 your refering to says an employer can only collect money if a jude orders so through a lawsuit. Gross neglegence is when a person leaves a blower in the yard and leaves the job. Not somebody stealing from the truck. Find one thats more compelling.

punt66
10-16-2008, 06:55 PM
The original poster said the trimmer was left for 5 min before he went to retrieve it. If they packed up and left the jobsite without collecting their tools then that would be negligence. Not getting something stolen in a regular course of work practices. Its illegal to withhold pay and the only way he can make an employee pay is to sue and then he wont win unless a judge finde gross negligence.

lawnman_scott
10-16-2008, 08:25 PM
The original poster said the trimmer was left for 5 min before he went to retrieve it. If they packed up and left the jobsite without collecting their tools then that would be negligence. Not getting something stolen in a regular course of work practices. Its illegal to withhold pay and the only way he can make an employee pay is to sue and then he wont win unless a judge finde gross negligence.
He provided locks, it should have been locked (according to the policy of the company).

It is not illegal to withhold for this IF the employee is paid hourly. If he is paid salary, then everything I said is wrong. But for an hourly employee its legal, at least according to the Federal Dept of labor.


Read the part that comes up with the link, then go back to page 283 and you will see the difference between hourly and salary.

http://books.google.com/books?id=i0L3Qgif3_cC&pg=PA288&lpg=PA288&dq=dock+employees+pay+for+damaged+equipment&source=web&ots=rDLn5gxV-d&sig=a_aNSn_NVPVQLnYqiDaasdnWut8&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=4&ct=result

punt66
10-16-2008, 08:50 PM
So i guess the gass station attendant will be responsible for a drive off, or a waitress for a non pay walk out, or a consultant who gets her laptop bag stolen from her while she exits a bus.(my wife) My wife's company provides lap top locks by the way. They gave her a new one the next day. Well i wont change your OPINION on this so i will wait till the department of labor gives me the answer and i will post it here whether i am right or wrong.

lawnman_scott
10-17-2008, 07:53 AM
So i guess the gass station attendant will be responsible for a drive off, or a waitress for a non pay walk out, or a consultant who gets her laptop bag stolen from her while she exits a bus.(my wife) My wife's company provides lap top locks by the way. They gave her a new one the next day. Well i wont change your OPINION on this so i will wait till the department of labor gives me the answer and i will post it here whether i am right or wrong.No, no, and no. But if your wife is doing work from her car and goes into a store to get a soda leaving the laptop sitting on the seat next to the unused laptop lock, then what? I would say she is responsibile.

punt66
10-17-2008, 09:36 AM
Did the employee go to the store after he set the trimmer on the ground for a few minutes? Can my wife be distracted for a minute while a co worker asks he a question and somebody walks off with the laptop. It has to be Gross negligence. That means if she left the laptop on the city bus. Or set it on the sidewalk and walked away from it. If she left it in her locked car which is what the employer expects them to do at afterwork dinner meetings. Where else can they put it? Is she responsible still? Gross negligence has to be very obvious and its difficult to prove. An employers handbook is not above the law, however employees can be fired for going against company policy. But the policy has to be within the employees rights. Gross negligence is difficult to prove in most cases and would only cost the employer more money and an experienced employee.

punt66
10-17-2008, 12:33 PM
This is the email i recieved answering the question and puting this to rest. Right below is their answer. And if you keep reading you will see my question to them. Now i am done with this.


Per Section 31-51hh, an employer may not make deductions for or require payment for shortages, breakage, pilferage, or any other such activity.


-----Original Message-----
From: DOL.WebHelp
Sent: Friday, October 17, 2008 7:08 AM
To: DiBenedetto, Regina
Subject: FW: Labor Laws



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Jason P [mailto:punt66@yahoo.com]
Sent: Thu 10/16/2008 4:31 PM
To: DOL.WebHelp
Subject: Labor Laws

I have a question i couldnt find the answer to on the site. Is an employee responsible monetarily to replace an item or piece of equipment stolen from a jobsite they were working? In other words can an employer force or withhold moneys from their pay to replace the item that was stolen during his or her shift by a unknown thief? What law is that protecting the employee? Thanks for your help.

lawnman_scott
10-17-2008, 01:07 PM
This is the email i recieved answering the question and puting this to rest. Right below is their answer. And if you keep reading you will see my question to them. Now i am done with this.


Per Section 31-51hh, an employer may not make deductions for or require payment for shortages, breakage, pilferage, or any other such activity.


-----Original Message-----
From: DOL.WebHelp
Sent: Friday, October 17, 2008 7:08 AM
To: DiBenedetto, Regina
Subject: FW: Labor Laws



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Jason P [mailto:punt66@yahoo.com]
Sent: Thu 10/16/2008 4:31 PM
To: DOL.WebHelp
Subject: Labor Laws

I have a question i couldnt find the answer to on the site. Is an employee responsible monetarily to replace an item or piece of equipment stolen from a jobsite they were working? In other words can an employer force or withhold moneys from their pay to replace the item that was stolen during his or her shift by a unknown thief? What law is that protecting the employee? Thanks for your help.
3. Connecticut Law
Employers are required to pay wages weekly (unless less frequent paydays have been authorized by the Commissioner of Labor150) by cash, negotiable check, or direct deposit. If a payday falls on a non-workday, wages must be paid on the preceding day.151 Even in a wage dispute, an employer must pay the undisputed part of the wages on time to all employees, exempt and non-exempt.152

An employer may withhold or divert wages only if: (1) state or federal law requires or authorizes the employer to do so; (2) an employee provides written authorization for the deductions on a form that meets the Commissioner's approval; or (3) an employee provides written authorization for deduction for medical expenses, without benefit to employer, and the deduction is recorded in employer's wage records.153 Deductions may not be made before the regular payday or as a condition of continued employment. Withholding any part of wages because an agreement requiring notice before leaving employment is prohibited.154

Employers cannot request or require reimbursement from employees for any loss or shortage incurred as a result of a customer's wrongdoing.155


Your right. I pasted that from your link. Its a Connecticut state law. You know what that means to people not in ct? But in actuallity, lost equipment isnt even covered in that.

ein999
10-17-2008, 11:20 PM
Rules are broken in everyway possible. I worked for 50Cents and hour when minimum wage was 2.25 aththe age of 13 50+ hours a week with very little air conditioning. I dont see anyone trying to pay me Back.


In all honesty i think you did the right thing as far as i can see. If you have labor stealing your equipment then how would you control that or set some kind of precedent or example if you dont have them pay a little bit. I know its a little harsh but thats what people did to me and i hated it but i had to pay.


As a jewler and diamond setter i grew up on having to pay as a sole prop. when i broke a diamond i was responsible most of the time and you dont make much setting diamonds compared to what they are worth. So you would end up loosing that was part of the business.



If you leave a trimmer behind you own it.




I was in china town in California

A sign read


We Break we buy!
You Break You Buy!

This was in a store that sold breakable items.

So if you steal from me then you pay not my business or my time and energy.

Is not that fair why should you get stolen from and not be able to get fairness.

chuck simpkins
10-18-2008, 04:38 PM
In Florida it is commonplace for employers to back charge employees for negligent damage to equipment and for equipment that has been stolen due to their negligence....why should we eat the price every time for their mistakes?Accountability teaches responsibility!!!!!!

jimithing31
10-19-2008, 11:45 AM
If there is a written company policy that states it has to be locked up, and the things to lock it up are provided and operational then the employee is responsible.

Find me the law that makes in illegal. Like I said before, if someone comes and cuts the lock, then obviously the employee isnt responsible. But if he has the tools to lock it up and doesnt, then its his responsibility.

Every state has different laws... I would not be stating assumptions of facts about state laws that I do not live in,:nono::rolleyes: Mr. St. Pete Florida...

jimithing31
10-19-2008, 11:50 AM
Read this. Whats that at the end of #3. All those letters and numbers. Im no expert but it looks to me like a law, or a bill number. You do see that my link has .gov at the end right?

http://www.dhh.louisiana.gov/offices/publications/pubs-103/Employee%20Acceptance%20of%20Responsiblity%20for%20Property.pdf


ANd why are you bringing up laws in a State that is not even the one where this topic started and for an industry that is not of our own?? Are you DRUNK?? High???

Wonder what the laws are regarding this matter in China?? Hey can you find that one as part of your argument??? :dizzy::dizzy:

jimithing31
10-19-2008, 11:57 AM
"Can an employer fine an employee and take it out of his or her paycheck?

No. An employer is not permitted under Indiana law to fine an employee and deduct the amount from his/her pay."


That is straight from the INDIANA labor law page that was given. And THAT, is the law in INDIANA. Not Florida, Not Louisiana. INDIANA, where this company is located and if the former employee is not payed his full amount due and without any deductions for the missing trimmer he can go to court and the judge is going to reference this law, because it is the law in INDIANA. The business is going to be ordered to pay the employee and probably be fined itself for BREAKING THE LABOR LAW.

There are no provisions in that law for whether or not the equipment should have been locked up. It clearly states that the employer cannot fine or deduct $$$ from an employees check. PERIOD!!!!!



,

lawnman_scott
10-20-2008, 09:01 AM
ANd why are you bringing up laws in a State that is not even the one where this topic started and for an industry that is not of our own?? Are you DRUNK?? High???

Wonder what the laws are regarding this matter in China?? Hey can you find that one as part of your argument??? :dizzy::dizzy:
Hey dummazz. Are you a native of FL? Why dont you go back and read post 38. Idiot.

jimithing31
10-20-2008, 10:07 AM
Hey dummazz. Are you a native of FL? Why dont you go back and read post 38. Idiot.


I never got that far. There was too much "I'm right your wrong" to read all of the entire thread. The whole thing should have been put to rest when Punt66 (I think) posted the link to the labor law regarding pay. Why would anyone try to argue past the law as written??? Seemed pretty stupid to me.....