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ccstrebe
09-26-2008, 04:50 AM
Finally got to put her in the dirt today. Spent about three hours learning the ins and outs of my new machine.

The suspended undercarriage performs exactly as I had hoped for out at the track. The things that I do out there that would have jarred your teeth and slammed you around in a CTL are handled by the Cat as if they wern't even there. I was a little worried about some of the comments of the body flexing from the undercarriage because of the torsion axles and how some people didn't like that. For me it actually seems to help when doing finish work with the bucket. Again, it just seems to float around as I'm using it.

When you do a 180 in the soft dirt with the Cat the ground is only disturbed half as much as with a CTL.

There is one jump with a steep face that the 450 would almost stall on, the Cat takes it just fine. It might be because the Cat is a few hundered pounds lighter, I dont know.

The foot throttle is very easy to use, unlike the 450CT which had such a stiff foot throttle that it was unusable. Which doesn't make sense because the 440 I owned before that had a very easy to use foot throttle.

The glass door is a lot stiffer than the poly door. It has a nice solid feel to it when opening and closing the door.

I like how the seat height is about a foot higher than the Case was. I don't know about the seat height on other machines.

The Ac was awesome. It was 109 today and after about a half hour on high I had to turn the blower motor down a notch to the middle setting. I have read in the past on here where there were complaints about the design of Cats AC ducting causing the lower half of the cab to get too cold and upper half of the cab not getting enough cold. I think that would be the case if all six vents are left open. What I wound up doing was to close the four bottom vents and adjust the two top vents to blow up into the cab and everything was fine.

One area that Case has the Cat beat is the mounting plate/hydro coupler area. When trying to attach to the bucket or an implement the visibility is nowhere near as good as the Case. Once you are attached the visibility problem is quickly forgotten but it is not quite as smooth of an operation as it is with the Case. No big deal, though.

I have a huge issue with the side windows. The concept seems to be fine but the implementation is faulty. They vibrate very bad and are very noisy. I was in pretty dusty conditions and they seemed to be sealed fine, no dust got in. The problem is the middle track that the sliding doors slide on, it floats on top of the bottom glass and is not fixed to anything allowing it to vibrate. It is probably a function of being able to take out all the glass for cleaning but I cant believe this is an acceptable design. When I demoed in San Diego I heard the vibrating but I thought it was the screen vibrating not the glass track. Now I know what Yellowdog was talking about. I already have a couple of things in mind on how to fix it, shouldn't be too hard.

The ability to choose between Cat controls or Case controls is a great feature but to have to choose everytime the machine is started is very annoying. In my mind once a control is selected it should stay with that control until a new one is selected.

E/H controls: There seems to be a lot of opinions on them, here is mine.

There have been comments on how people didn't feel like they were productive and thought that the controls were inconsistent. One comment that I read was that they thought Cat was catering to everyday people. I think that it is exactly the opposite. These controls are very precise and the amics gives you even more precision and it takes a skilled person to operate them productively.

Lets say that you have two inches of lever travel to move the arm up. If you just slam it all the way over like I would do in the Case it is going to seem to be jerky and slam hard, but when you learn that the first one inch of lever travel is very precise and you don't go past that first inch of travel you have a very smooth and controlled operation. This is where the amics comes into to play. The amics controls how fast the bucket or arm moves in that first one inch not the second inch. It is almost like the lever has two stages in each direction, stage one is controlled and stage two is full speed ahead and you better hang on.

I feel like I have much more control now. Of course I'm using the Case control pattern which in my mind complements the amics.

I also read the comments about the hesitation and how people didn't like that. Just to be clear, the hesitation is in the forward/backward motions not the bucket and arm motions. I experienced the hesitation and I suspect that it is built into the system so as not to rip off the lugs on the tracks. It didn't bother me at all, in fact I like it because there are times where I do a lot of real short and quick forward and backward operations in quick succesion and if there wasnt that hesitation it would be real jerky, but with the built in hesitation it now becomes a very smooth operation and in my mind less abusive on the running train.

That's all I got for now. I can't believe it took two and a half hours to write this up. Part two will be on how she performs with the implements and the laser.

KSSS wanted me to include the bad stuff too so here it is, I have already developed a leak somewhere on the right drive side, I'll take it in first thing in the morning. I'll have to use that half ton.

YellowDogSVC
09-26-2008, 11:32 AM
I had that same leak but it was never resolved. Though I have sold back my 272c, I got a recall notice in the mail yesterday. It is for auxiliary hydraulic pump or joystick or something like that. Have them check it out while it's in the shop to save you an extra trip.
My thought on the windows was to remove the sliding windows and have a cut to fit lexan made to mount outside the mesh. It could then be sealed and there is still tolerance if you use a 1/4" lexan. Only issue would be cleaning it from inside the cab. Would take hose down and the CAT cab doesn't like that with the fabric seat.
Good luck on the dust. Mine started off fine too but the rattles got worse. I would double, even triple check after that cab is lifted that it seated good on the AC evaporator under the cab. See if the snorkel kits are ready, too, to keep your air intake out of the dust which may help extend filter life.
good luck. They are not bad machines but just have some issues to work out. The controls are excellent especially with the amics. I especially like that you can dial in the boom lift speed. Makes for precise movement when unloading bulky or overloaded pallets even if RPM's are up.
I do miss the CAT seat. 24 hours in rocky terrain this week made me want to install a whoopee cushion under my seat!

bobcat_ron
09-26-2008, 12:08 PM
Can you lay some truck canopy weather stripping foam under or in the tracks from the windows to tighten them up? The foam I used on my cab seal project is actually kinda slippery if the plastic cover isn't peeled off, and it's only about 1/8" thick.

ccstrebe
09-26-2008, 12:46 PM
The glass seems tight enough. The vibration of that bottom glass track seems to be caused by the resonation of the tracks and not being fixed at the ends, it doesn't do it at all times but when it happens it's annoying.

I was thinking about making some kind of bracket to actually attatch the ends of that floating rail.

bobcat_ron
09-26-2008, 12:59 PM
What about using the foam that I used and sticking it to the side screens of the cab, that way it tightens then up side to side at least.

MackCat
09-26-2008, 01:27 PM
I have a new 2008 297C and i had terrible vibrations in the cab glass. Dealer came out and said there was definetly a problem so they took my machine in and they found that the tracks were too tight I thought that they were crazy until i drove the machine could not believe the difference. my dealer said that they have had a few other complaints with the same problem they said they were going to contact Cat to tell them. My tracks were adjusted just like the manual said.You May want to have them look at yours, also I got a recall in the mail today for the high flow wire harness

bobcat_ron
09-26-2008, 02:19 PM
I have never had my windows vibrate, the machine does vibrate when driving empty over pavement, but the windows stay steady, track tension would play alot in that problem.

MackCat
09-26-2008, 02:48 PM
I have never had my windows vibrate, the machine does vibrate when driving empty over pavement, but the windows stay steady, track tension would play alot in that problem.
My Windows would vibrate so bad I thought they were going to jump out. The Left side was worse,the track adjuster even vibrated loose. After they loosened the tracks it was like night and day what a difference! I was concerned about running them looser but I haven`t Had any problems

ccstrebe
09-26-2008, 03:31 PM
I have a new 2008 297C and i had terrible vibrations in the cab glass. Dealer came out and said there was definetly a problem so they took my machine in and they found that the tracks were too tight I thought that they were crazy until i drove the machine could not believe the difference. my dealer said that they have had a few other complaints with the same problem they said they were going to contact Cat to tell them. My tracks were adjusted just like the manual said.You May want to have them look at yours, also I got a recall in the mail today for the high flow wire harness

Thanks, I'll look into that.

What about using the foam that I used and sticking it to the side screens of the cab, that way it tightens then up side to side at least.

That's a good idea. I forgot to mention that the vibration motion was a side to side motion.

Junior M
09-26-2008, 04:05 PM
And where are the pics?

ccstrebe
09-26-2008, 04:42 PM
And where are the pics?

Got a small hydro leak after the first half hour of operation so its all oily and dusty right now. I'll post some pics next week.

Junior M
09-26-2008, 04:46 PM
Got a small hydro leak after the first half hour of operation so its all oily and dusty right now. I'll post some pics next week.
Oh, darn! keep us waiting even longer! haha.... Make sure not to post pics of it loaded behind your f150 though!

Scag48
09-26-2008, 06:42 PM
Hope you like the new machine, but to be brutally honest, you have little knowledge of this equipment. And hey, that's fine, good for you going out and buying a $70K play toy, al the power to you. Wish I could say I was able to do the same right now.

You can see by my avatar that I sport a Cat logo, been a long time fan and support Cat (getting a little shaky these days, though). However, I feel you pound on Case way too hard and it's quite apparent that everything you thought was wrong with your Case was simply a null issue to those of us who do this for a living. Like I said, more power to you for having this machine to practically play on. I'm not attacking you personally, don't know you, just thought I'd call it as I see and stand out on a limb to say that you're a rookie with heavy equipment.

The hesitation in the AMICS system is not there to keep from ripping track lugs off. It is an electrical system and through the relays to the pumps is where the hesitation starts and grows. There are far less electronics between the hydraulic functions that travel functions, the AMICS system is a fairly complicated series of electronics controlling directional control, therefore the more times you run information through another computer or relay, the longer it takes to get to the end of the line.

Spinning 180's with that machine is going to screw your undercarriage, stop doing it. 3 point turns are the only way to roll with ANY tracked machine, CTL, MTL, dozer, whatever. If my boss caught me spinning any more than 45 degrees in a D8, I'd be fired, no questions asked. Regardless of machine weight, anything with tracks should never be spun around like that. Rollers and sprockets end up taking a ton of side loaded pressure, not good for the bushings in the long run.

As for the leak, don't haul that damn machine anywhere. You make Cat come out and fix it, they should GLADLY do so otherwise I'd tell them to take it back. Don't take any crap off your dealer, some are better than others, but their mechanic should fix it in the field. A new machine that leaks? I'd already be pissed. Way to go Cat, sell machines that leak brand new. Really helps keep Cat in the game by charging more than everyone else for practically the same machine and then it has issues. I'm beginning to lose faith in everything Cat except for the dozers.

ccstrebe
09-26-2008, 07:30 PM
I'm not attacking you personally, don't know you, just thought I'd call it as I see and stand out on a limb to say that you're a rookie with heavy equipment.

I'm less than a rookie.

The hesitation in the AMICS system is not there to keep from ripping track lugs off. It is an electrical system and through the relays to the pumps is where the hesitation starts and grows. There are far less electronics between the hydraulic functions that travel functions, the AMICS system is a fairly complicated series of electronics controlling directional control, therefore the more times you run information through another computer or relay, the longer it takes to get to the end of the line.

Then how come there is no hesitation on the boom and bucket functions?

As for the leak, don't haul that damn machine anywhere. You make Cat come out and fix it, they should GLADLY do so otherwise I'd tell them to take it back. Don't take any crap off your dealer, some are better than others, but their mechanic should fix it in the field. A new machine that leaks? I'd already be pissed. Way to go Cat, sell machines that leak brand new. Really helps keep Cat in the game by charging more than everyone else for practically the same machine and then it has issues. I'm beginning to lose faith in everything Cat except for the dozers.

Cat offered to come out and fix it but I needed to bring one of my implements into town to have it modified to fit the Cat mounting plate so it was no big deal. Plus I cant get it to float so there might be an electrical issue, I'm not sure. It doesn't bother me that there is a small leak, probably a loose fitting or bad o-ring I know they will take care of me plus I'm going to make them steam clean it and detail it.

Scag48
09-26-2008, 07:44 PM
Then how come there is no hesitation on the boom and bucket functions?




I thought I made myself clear, sorry about the mixup. The AMICS system takes the signal processed by the movement in the directional joystick and modifies it before it goes to the pump. This works because of the AMICS system itself. If you set it up to be ultra sensitive vs. super delayed, the movement in the joystick makes no difference on the outcome of the movement because the AMICS is controlling what's happening after the joystick has been moved. The bucket and boom functions do not have this feature, the signal is not synthesized before it gets to the end of the line. Therefore, it gets there much faster, no hesitation. Make sense?

bobcat_ron
09-26-2008, 08:25 PM
The hesitation is there to protect the drive system like the planetaries, Takeuchi does the same.

Scag48
09-26-2008, 08:29 PM
There might be a little hesitation involved with the drive system, I'll give you that, but the AMICS and E/H is going to take the cake for providing 90% of the noticeable hesitation. The 277B we had you could feel a little hesitation, but hardly anything worth mentioning. Just felt normal, it's obvious you can't go straight backward to full nuts forward instantaneously.

bobcat_ron
09-26-2008, 08:40 PM
The old B series never used planetaries, only the C's and the B2's, that's why the 277's and 287's were such old dogs trying to turn with one track, they were a direct drive.

Scag48
09-26-2008, 08:48 PM
Hmmmm. I like the planetary idea. Doesn't make any sense for them to build in some sort of hesitation to protect anything. I was in a D6R yesterday with diff steer and when you spin the tiller between forward and reverse, there is zero hesitation. As soon as you change direction, bam, you're going the other way. I suppose that could be that way because you pass neutral giving it a chance to clear itself. But if you're rolling off a hill in reverse, change directions, technically you're still going in reverse through neutral, so you're still slamming the planetaries once you make the direction change on the tiller. Like I said, if the planetary protection thing is a noticeable hesitation and that's the explanation, not the AMICS, I'd be seriously surprised. If you think about what AMICS is doing, it makes sense, to me anyway, as to why there is the hesitation.

ksss
09-26-2008, 08:49 PM
The 256C had the same hesitation. I am not sure why but it does not have to do with having tracks. Bobcat's E/H has hesitation in it as well, not sure if that is a product of the E/H system or its planned that way. I really doubt it is planned but who knows. Has anyone run a Deere E/H machine and tell us if it has a hesitation in it? Maybe Tiger knows.

I cant imagine a hill that a CASE machine (440, 450, 465) would barely make it up. I have had my machines at 9000 feet, fully loaded and working a slope so steep that you could not keep an excavator on without benching (some snow involved)and I have never run out of power. It could be I guess, but I have never seen it happen. The 450 may have been heavier, but it has considerably more torque than the CAT, even an 06 model. Maybe it was not running at 100%.

iron peddler
09-26-2008, 09:19 PM
some interesting theories going on here.....not to change back to the window subject, how many of you guys actually use the side windows for anything? i made the suggestion to one of my customers to silicone the windows on the slide tracks to see if helps...so far 3 months later no complaints and no need to open the windows.

CAT powered
09-26-2008, 09:30 PM
When I'm working with another guy I use the side windows. If my loader arms are up my door won't open to talk to him so I use the side windows to talk to the guy.

bobcat_ron
09-26-2008, 10:13 PM
I like to hock a loogie out the side windows every now and then.

ccstrebe
09-26-2008, 10:24 PM
I cant imagine a hill that a CASE machine (440, 450, 465) would barely make it up. I have had my machines at 9000 feet, fully loaded and working a slope so steep that you could not keep an excavator on without benching (some snow involved)and I have never run out of power. It could be I guess, but I have never seen it happen. The 450 may have been heavier, but it has considerably more torque than the CAT, even an 06 model. Maybe it was not running at 100%.

There were times where I wondered if it was running at 100% but how would you know what 100% was? When I get a chance I'll take a picture of the jump face that I was comparing it to and see what you think.

KSSS, are any of your machines tracked? By the way, they already sold the 450ct

not to change back to the window subject, how many of you guys actually use the side windows for anything? i made the suggestion to one of my customers to silicone the windows on the slide tracks to see if helps...so far 3 months later no complaints and no need to open the windows.

I have already used them, it's easier to open the window than the door if you just have to say a quick word to someone.

Tigerotor77W
09-26-2008, 10:34 PM
Maybe Tiger knows.

Sorry guys, but not having worked on the control system for the C-series, I no no idea how anything affects another... I could say that no control system will be able to reproduce 100% (i.e. perfectly accurate modulation of the joystick command) the input-output command of a joystick, whether mechanical or electrical, but I don't have intimate knowledge of how Cat has implemented their system.

Digdeep
09-26-2008, 10:40 PM
The 256C had the same hesitation. I am not sure why but it does not have to do with having tracks. Bobcat's E/H has hesitation in it as well, not sure if that is a product of the E/H system or its planned that way. I really doubt it is planned but who knows. Has anyone run a Deere E/H machine and tell us if it has a hesitation in it? Maybe Tiger knows.

I cant imagine a hill that a CASE machine (440, 450, 465) would barely make it up. I have had my machines at 9000 feet, fully loaded and working a slope so steep that you could not keep an excavator on without benching (some snow involved)and I have never run out of power. It could be I guess, but I have never seen it happen. The 450 may have been heavier, but it has considerably more torque than the CAT, even an 06 model. Maybe it was not running at 100%.

I think the delay in the E/H controls is due to the slight lag in response that comes from the movement in the joystick, the E/H opening and closing solenoids to move the servo piston back and forth to change the angle of the swash plate thus sending oil to the drive motor/final drive forward or backward. I think response will improve over time as these systems become ironed out. The timing between a direct mechanical linkage and a hydraulic pilot system (with pressure always on either side of the servo piston) currently has a better response time.

ARP
09-26-2008, 10:40 PM
Has anyone run a Deere E/H machine and tell us if it has a hesitation in it?

Just adding my two cents here.
From my brief time in a demo CT332 and 325 tooling around in the dealer lot, I never experienced any delay with the E/H controls. I spent some time fine grading the lot and charging stone and dirt piles. Again, they were new machines, but I did not experience any delay in the controls.

stuvecorp
09-26-2008, 10:58 PM
CC, have you ever ran a skid with the Logering VTS tracks? When are you going to show us your attachment pics? Enjoy your new machine.

YellowDogSVC
09-27-2008, 12:14 AM
The glass seems tight enough. The vibration of that bottom glass track seems to be caused by the resonation of the tracks and not being fixed at the ends, it doesn't do it at all times but when it happens it's annoying.

I was thinking about making some kind of bracket to actually attatch the ends of that floating rail.

this is what I tried to explain to my dealer. The vibration frequency from the rotation mulcher caused a vibration (like bee's wings) that allow small gaps in the windows that allowed the A/C to pull in the dust and dirt. I imagine you will have issues after they loosen up a bit..

ccstrebe
09-27-2008, 10:52 AM
CC, have you ever ran a skid with the Logering VTS tracks? When are you going to show us your attachment pics? Enjoy your new machine.

The concept is interesting but it wasn't going to be what I needed.

I'm in the process of repainting them. I wanted to show them off with the Cat but the Case power tan color that they were painted clashes real bad with the Cat color.

ccstrebe
09-27-2008, 10:54 AM
this is what I tried to explain to my dealer. The vibration frequency from the rotation mulcher caused a vibration (like bee's wings) that allow small gaps in the windows that allowed the A/C to pull in the dust and dirt. I imagine you will have issues after they loosen up a bit..


That's what I figured was at least part of your problem, the mulcher head resonation.

By the way, I did tell my Cat dealer to look into the snorkle. After using it light duty for just a couple of hours the dust was already starting to build up around the cab air intake louvers.

CarterKraft
09-28-2008, 10:52 PM
Any hesitation in the drive system is purely software.

There are many changes coming for the E/H system for the C-series machines that are all software based and will address every and anything anyone has ever complined about, that might be pushing it huh.

The float feature will be improved to be more intuitive, as well as full AMICS control over all operational parameters.

I believe the machine was put on the market with a "Malibu" tune up, obviously all buyers do not need a "Corvette" and others don't want a "Cobalt" so a in the middle was released. The more precise stuff is coming and will address any concerns I think.

As for the windows, the only problem CAT has ever had with the side removable windows is just that, they are removable. If they made them onw piece and bolted in there wouldn't be a single complaint for leaks vibration etc, but the majority would gripe that they can't clean them. If we have a customer complain about the windows we will install more fastners and seal in the tracks, second complaint they get siliconed up and the complaints end, sucks to do that but it works.

ccstrebe
09-29-2008, 01:18 AM
Any hesitation in the drive system is purely software.

There are many changes coming for the E/H system for the C-series machines that are all software based and will address every and anything anyone has ever complined about, that might be pushing it huh.

The float feature will be improved to be more intuitive, as well as full AMICS control over all operational parameters.

I believe the machine was put on the market with a "Malibu" tune up, obviously all buyers do not need a "Corvette" and others don't want a "Cobalt" so a in the middle was released. The more precise stuff is coming and will address any concerns I think.

How will we know when there are software updates available?

Junior M
09-29-2008, 09:09 AM
So did you get your new cat in to the dealership?

CarterKraft
09-29-2008, 10:37 AM
Not sure yet if they are gonna be a Product update program or a as required type program.

I will try to post when they become available.

ccstrebe
09-29-2008, 10:50 AM
So did you get your new cat in to the dealership?

Yes, still waiting for the bucket too. Should get it back this afternoon with the bucket. Hopefully my welder will be painting my mini dozer blade and scarifier today too.

ccstrebe
09-29-2008, 10:51 AM
Not sure yet if they are gonna be a Product update program or a as required type program.

I will try to post when they become available.

Thanks, appreciate it.

CarterKraft
09-29-2008, 10:57 AM
I was reading up on the files when you replied.

Looks like 1st quarter 09' for all the files to be available.

for a tease the changes/options to be offered sound really cool.

ccstrebe
09-29-2008, 11:06 AM
Is it just a straight downloadable upgrade or are there going to be user options/settings? So far I have no problems other than some minor tweeking.

CarterKraft
09-29-2008, 11:47 AM
I am hesitant to say...

I think it might be similar to the AMICS control you have over your implements.

Junior M
09-29-2008, 04:58 PM
Why are you having your attachments repainted?

ccstrebe
09-29-2008, 05:10 PM
Because they were the Case tan color and they clashed real bad with the Cat Yellow. Since the Cat bucket and the Power bucket are black I'm painting the mini dozer blade and the scarifier black. I think the ripper/ringroller will look best Cat yellow.

bobcat_ron
09-29-2008, 07:42 PM
I have never cleaned my windows by removing them, I just spray Windex on them and wash off with a hose.

YellowDogSVC
09-30-2008, 01:51 PM
Any hesitation in the drive system is purely software.

As for the windows, the only problem CAT has ever had with the side removable windows is just that, they are removable. If they made them onw piece and bolted in there wouldn't be a single complaint for leaks vibration etc, but the majority would gripe that they can't clean them. If we have a customer complain about the windows we will install more fastners and seal in the tracks, second complaint they get siliconed up and the complaints end, sucks to do that but it works.

Geez. Now you offer to do that! They kept my machine for long time and never offered to seal the windows until AFTER I had complained for 4 weeks. I never got more fasteners either. I did some of my own silicone but no joy.

YellowDogSVC
09-30-2008, 01:53 PM
There is a recall for the C series. Some wiring for secondary auxiliary hydraulics. Not sure if the later models have been fixed. I had a machine built 4/08 but I just got the letter. Says it needs to be fixed or a work tool can move on it's own.

CarterKraft
10-01-2008, 12:22 PM
Geez. Now you offer to do that! They kept my machine for long time and never offered to seal the windows until AFTER I had complained for 4 weeks. I never got more fasteners either. I did some of my own silicone but no joy.


No one is more disappointed about your experiance than me.

I take allot of pride in my diagnosis/repair of machines and won't hesitate to act when needed.

Unfortunantly the store that is in your area doesn't do the same amount of CCE business as we do and they weren't aware of the options.

YellowDogSVC
10-01-2008, 10:29 PM
No one is more disappointed about your experiance than me.

I take allot of pride in my diagnosis/repair of machines and won't hesitate to act when needed.

Unfortunantly the store that is in your area doesn't do the same amount of CCE business as we do and they weren't aware of the options.

Yeah. The whole experience really drained me. I did like most of the C series machines and knew that the upgrades were coming but just didn't have faith in THAT machine or the ability of the local shop to deal with it. I have heard great things about you, personally, so where that as a badge of honor. It came from people at CAT that I respect.

Scag48
10-01-2008, 11:37 PM
My faith in Cat is slowly slipping away, I really have practically no faith in anything they build anymore other than excavators and dozers. New loaders suck, backhoes are junk, skid steers are hit and miss, I liked the A and B series machines a whole lot more. I dunno, call me crazy, but I'm pretty die hard and I'm starting to slip. I only wear my Cat Diesel Power t-shirt about 1 day a week instead of 3. :laugh:

stuvecorp
10-01-2008, 11:40 PM
My faith in Cat is slowly slipping away, I really have practically no faith in anything they build anymore other than excavators and dozers. New loaders suck, backhoes are junk, skid steers are hit and miss, I liked the A and B series machines a whole lot more. I dunno, call me crazy, but I'm pretty die hard and I'm starting to slip. I only wear my Cat Diesel Power t-shirt about 1 day a week instead of 3. :laugh:

That's what happens if you don't wear your tin foil hat at night, the Case satellite beams in sweet thoughts.
*Not applicable for Canadian residents

Tigerotor77W
10-01-2008, 11:54 PM
My faith in Cat is slowly slipping away, I really have practically no faith in anything they build anymore

Don't give up on Cat yet -- not you, too!

You guys know perfectly well what color I bleed, but my saying this isn't based on fanboyism. I'm gritting my teeth as much as anyone here; I've seen the same comments that you have through the past fifteen years. Young and unfamiliar with professional excavation as I am, my first experience with Cat was in 1995... I was nine at the time. That someone in Peoria perked up and listened to the questions of an aspiring engineer [i.e. child] at the time meant something, and that's the reason that I'm so intimate with them now. There are eyes and ears out there, watching what the communities are saying. People are taking notice of the winds.

Don't jump ship just yet. It's worth seeing if Cat can retain its greatness -- my future depends on it!

ccstrebe
10-02-2008, 01:13 AM
Any hesitation in the drive system is purely software.

There are many changes coming for the E/H system for the C-series machines that are all software based and will address every and anything anyone has ever complined about, that might be pushing it huh.

The float feature will be improved to be more intuitive, as well as full AMICS control over all operational parameters.



Not sure yet if they are gonna be a Product update program or a as required type program.

I will try to post when they become available.


Just had the software upgraded today. It is a sweet upgrade!! I didn't have a problem with how they worked before, you just had to be very diliberate and precise, not anymore, they are butter smooth now, no jerking and they work the same everytime. I'm very pleased.

The float is way easy now, just start lowering the boom and hit the trigger, the joystick doesn't have to be all the way over now.

Forward and reverse hesitation is still there but I actually like it, it makes for a very smooth transition from one direction to another. I still say it is a built in safety feature so as to not tear things up and break them.

CarterKraft
10-02-2008, 09:04 PM
Glad to hear it.

Software design is a mother, you build it the way you think the masses want it, turns out they didn't really want it that way, doh.

I would bet you still did not get the final revision of the software but probally a intermim upgrade, I will see what I can come up with.

CarterKraft
10-02-2008, 09:06 PM
YellowDog,

I really appreciate it. I wish you the best and hope one day you'll wise up and move North, jk.

MackCat
10-02-2008, 09:30 PM
Just had the software upgraded today. It is a sweet upgrade!! I didn't have a problem with how they worked before, you just had to be very diliberate and precise, not anymore, they are butter smooth now, no jerking and they work the same everytime. I'm very pleased.

The float is way easy now, just start lowering the boom and hit the trigger, the joystick doesn't have to be all the way over now.

Forward and reverse hesitation is still there but I actually like it, it makes for a very smooth transition from one direction to another. I still say it is a built in safety feature so as to not tear things up and break them.
Did your dealer tell you about the upgrade,or did you just request it?

ccstrebe
10-03-2008, 12:16 AM
Did your dealer tell you about the upgrade,or did you just request it?

I told them the float wasn't working and they had just gotten the interim update in so they installed it thinking it was a software problem. Silly me, the float was probably working, I just wasn't doing it right.

MackCat
10-03-2008, 05:23 PM
I told them the float wasn't working and they had just gotten the interim update in so they installed it thinking it was a software problem. Silly me, the float was probably working, I just wasn't doing it right.
The float can be kind of tricky,was curious about the update, I will check with my dealer and see if they will do it on my machine. Like you I`m not having any problems, but I want all available Updates

ccstrebe
10-03-2008, 05:29 PM
The float can be kind of tricky,was curious about the update, I will check with my dealer and see if they will do it on my machine. Like you I`m not having any problems, but I want all available Updates


Float works great now. Let me know if you can tell the difference in the software update.

MackCat
10-03-2008, 05:36 PM
Float works great now. Let me know if you can tell the difference in the software update.
I Have to take my machine in for a recall as soon as they get the parts in, and I will see if they will do it then. i will let you know if i can tell a difference.

Canon Landscaping
10-03-2008, 11:37 PM
I ran a 297c for about four hours today, the one I have is fully loaded with about 500 hours.

I love the cab but the visibility to the rear sucks and dust still gets in.

ASV tracks ride smooth but slipped on the drive sprocket when going down a steep hill, tension rod is rusted in place, I am going to try a cheater bar tomorrow. The right track frame is bent it slopes away from the machine and all of the rollers are about 30%.

I was not impressed with the power for the size of the machine.

My deere 322 is just as productive as this machine and will push almost as much but it will beat you to death for half the price.

The 297c is very awkward to power rake with you can not see the drum but the thumb roller aux control is nice.

You have to raise the boom off of it's stops to drive over any uneven ground.

I did not like the cat bucket I put my deere bucket on it and it worked much better.

The 297c is a very comfortable machine but just doesn't put the power to the ground like a deere and around here being comfortable doesn't make you anymore money.

Tigerotor77W
10-04-2008, 10:27 AM
I was not impressed with the power for the size of the machine.

My deere 322 is just as productive as this machine and will push almost as much but it will beat you to death for half the price.

.... just doesn't put the power to the ground like a deere and around here being comfortable doesn't make you anymore money.

So did you feel the 297C was more or less powerful than the Deere? I guess I'm confused because your first statement said it was more powerful and the second one suggests it wasn't as good?

Nelson M Martin
10-04-2008, 08:28 PM
I ran a 297c for about four hours today, the one I have is fully loaded with about 500 hours.

The 297c is a very comfortable machine but just doesn't put the power to the ground like a deere and around here being comfortable doesn't make you anymore money.

just curious if you also tried out the snail/creep mode on the 297C ??
It is a nice feature but not too user freindly to switch and set while on the go

Canon Landscaping
10-06-2008, 07:21 PM
The creep mode is activated by a switch and you have to stop to engage it. It doesn't make the machine more responsive it just allows you to run the rpms up and still go slow like for mowing or trenching.

Here are some pics in one of them you can see how bad the rollers are wore and this machine only has 500 hours on it.

We have a 289c now and the ride is nowhere near as smooth as the asv undercarriage and the first speed it too slow you almost want to keep it in the second speed all the time.

Junior M
10-06-2008, 07:51 PM
That 289c sure is purty! I would seriously look at one if I could get my dad's eyes off of the freakn orange and white...

dozerman21
10-06-2008, 07:55 PM
How is the 289C power wise? Is the ride pretty similar to other CTL's?

ccstrebe
10-06-2008, 08:24 PM
Here is my last custom implement.

I tried a 6 way blade but it didn't work for my needs. I needed a lot more fine control of the cutting edge than the six way would give me.

So I took a warped Case bucket that was used for concrete demo work and a 7 ft. rear blade from Landpride and mated the two together.

I started by cutting the front lip of the bucket off a bit and welded a 3/4" thick pc. of flat stock across the front so that I could bolt on the dozer blade.

After I used it a couple of times I realized I needed to weld some end plates on so that when I had a blade full of dirt I could make a turn and not lose the dirt out the ends of the blade.

It seems like a simple thing but it sure sped things up when all I needed to do was take some high spots and fill in some low spots. Also, when I need to clean up the holes and ruts that form on the face of a jump, in the past I would have to scrape and dump with a bucket. The problem with this was that it was time consuming and didn't do as good of a job as the dozer blade.

The reason it works so well, is because the whole bottom of the bucket is floating on the ground the keep things flat and level so that all I have to do to make a controlled cut is roll the bucket forward to start cutting and the bottom of the buckets keeps the blade from pulling too deep into the ground. Also, it works real good in the float mode. In float, it basically does the same thing as back dragging but you can go forward at full speed instead of backward and the end plates allow you to turn with dirt in the blade and keep going.

Again, like my other implements, I don't know how well it would work out in the real world, but it sure makes my life easier for my specific needs.

iron peddler
10-06-2008, 08:34 PM
to all that ask about the ride...i hide the new ctl's on the lot.....i feel that it rides better than the current mtl.....those that made comments about the mtl track vibration frequency are correct...i could say more but i will likely get my hand slapped enough as it is...and before the power beige guys jump on to start an argument...different strokes for different blokes!!!*trucewhiteflag*

ksss
10-06-2008, 08:41 PM
to all that ask about the ride...i hide the new ctl's on the lot.....i feel that it rides better than the current mtl.....those that made comments about the mtl track vibration frequency are correct...i could say more but i will likely get my hand slapped enough as it is...and before the power beige guys jump on to start an argument...different strokes for different blokes!!!*trucewhiteflag*


"Power beige"? Peddler C'mon, POWER TAN, BABY!!!!!

ccstrebe
10-06-2008, 08:45 PM
Here is my last custom implement.

I tried a 6 way blade but it didn't work for my needs. I needed a lot more fine control of the cutting edge than the six way would give me.

So I took a warped Case bucket that was used for concrete demo work and a 7 ft. rear blade from Landpride and mated the two together.

I started by cutting the front lip of the bucket off a bit and welded a 3/4" thick pc. of flat stock across the front so that I could bolt on the dozer blade.

After I used it a couple of times I realized I needed to weld some end plates on so that when I had a blade full of dirt I could make a turn and not lose the dirt out the ends of the blade.

It seems like a simple thing but it sure sped things up when all I needed to do was take some high spots and fill in some low spots. Also, when I need to clean up the holes and ruts that form on the face of a jump, in the past I would have to scrape and dump with a bucket. The problem with this was that it was time consuming and didn't do as good of a job as the dozer blade.

The reason it works so well, is because the whole bottom of the bucket is floating on the ground the keep things flat and level so that all I have to do to make a controlled cut is roll the bucket forward to start cutting and the bottom of the buckets keeps the blade from pulling too deep into the ground. Also, it works real good in the float mode. In float, it basically does the same thing as back dragging but you can go forward at full speed instead of backward and the end plates allow you to turn with dirt in the blade and keep going.

Again, like my other implements, I don't know how well it would work out in the real world, but it sure makes my life easier for my specific needs.

I can't belive I put this in the wrong thread, could the moderator please move this to the "lets see you custom/modified implements" thread?

iron peddler
10-06-2008, 08:49 PM
:drinkup:"Power beige"? Peddler C'mon, POWER TAN, BABY!!!!!

just seeing who is paying attention!!!! lots of love for everyone's imput regardless of topic

Canon Landscaping
10-06-2008, 09:15 PM
I only ran it for a few minutes today so I am still on the fence but all ctls ride smooth when the tracks are new once they get cracks and pits the ride quality goes down.

The cat has three flange rollers it rides on the middle and the sides so it might not be as hard on the tracks. Dealer said a new track will run 900.

Machine is slower than the mtl they also slowed down the loader cycle speed it is too slow now but I think they can fix that by hooking it to the computer.

dozerman21
10-06-2008, 09:26 PM
I only ran it for a few minutes today so I am still on the fence but all ctls ride smooth when the tracks are new once they get cracks and pits the ride quality goes down.The cat has three flange rollers it rides on the middle and the sides so it might not be as hard on the tracks. Dealer said a new track will run 900. Machine is slower than the mtl they also slowed down the loader cycle speed it is too slow now but I think they can fix that by hooking it to the computer.

$900 or $1,900 for a new track? A new Bridgestone track from a Deere dealer is around $1,900 for a 450mm.
If you get time, try to do some hard pushing and cutting with it and let us know how it does.

Canon Landscaping
10-06-2008, 09:34 PM
I was trying to think of some test we could put it through besides what we would uses it for everyday any ideas?

dozerman21
10-06-2008, 10:00 PM
Run them side by side with two equally skilled operators and just do the same depth of cuts and see which has better push power, then switch machines. Run them at the same speed with a full cup of water and see which one spills more. See which machine can breakout of a heaped bucket of dirt from a pile better. If you have some heavy rocks or pallets you could do a lift test. Find some slopes and see which machines grips better...etc.

Most of that won't prove a lot, but it might give you a better feel of the machine.

bobcat_ron
10-06-2008, 11:10 PM
Is there any talk of a narrow track option for the 279-299's?
I'd love to step up to a 72" wide 279C, not 78", that's way too much.

ksss
10-07-2008, 12:01 AM
Is there any talk of a narrow track option for the 279-299's?
I'd love to step up to a 72" wide 279C, not 78", that's way too much.

Your answer is the 440CT. 71" wide with 16" tracks, over 100% more torque, about 40 more hp, twice the bucket breakout, more ROC, 30% more hyd flow at the aux. The most impressive perhaps is that it is not much dimensionally different in physical size from your itt bitty Kitty. According to your numbers the fuel usage is about the same.


All that and you get the unmatched reliability and performance of the CASE 440.

Not to mention you become a Power Tan Man.

stuvecorp
10-07-2008, 12:30 AM
Your answer is the 440CT. 71" wide with 16" tracks, over 100% more torque, about 40 more hp, twice the bucket breakout, more ROC, 30% more hyd flow at the aux. The most impressive perhaps is that it is not much dimensionally different in physical size from your itt bitty Kitty. According to your numbers the fuel usage is about the same.


All that and you get the unmatched reliability and performance of the CASE 440.

Not to mention you become a Power Tan Man.

What is the lifting capability? Too lazy to look.

ksss
10-07-2008, 12:49 AM
what is the lifting capability? Too lazy to look.


2100 @ 35%

bobcat_ron
10-07-2008, 09:21 AM
Your answer is the 440CT. 71" wide with 16" tracks, over 100% more torque, about 40 more hp, twice the bucket breakout, more ROC, 30% more hyd flow at the aux. The most impressive perhaps is that it is not much dimensionally different in physical size from your itt bitty Kitty. According to your numbers the fuel usage is about the same.


All that and you get the unmatched reliability and performance of the CASE 440.

Not to mention you become a Power Tan Man.



I typed "I'd love to step up to a 279C" not step down to a C....C....C..C......ase. :laugh:

ksss
10-08-2008, 08:58 PM
I demo and your Cat would be on trailer heading to your local Case dealer.

hansondirtman
10-08-2008, 09:04 PM
get an sr-80 - 72" wide - with 20" tracks, nothing can touch it.

bobcat_ron
10-08-2008, 09:19 PM
I demo and your Cat would be on trailer heading to your local Case dealer.

Yeah, because I'd have to show those idiot Case dealers how a real skid steer is designed with a roomy cab and easy access engine bay!

CarterKraft
10-08-2008, 09:37 PM
$900 or $1,900 for a new track? A new Bridgestone track from a Deere dealer is around $1,900 for a 450mm.
If you get time, try to do some hard pushing and cutting with it and let us know how it does.


Not sure what price they quoted him but a new track isn't even close to $900. Not really close to $1900 either. :dizzy:

ksss
10-08-2008, 10:20 PM
Yeah, because I'd have to show those idiot Case dealers how a real skid steer is designed with a roomy cab and easy access engine bay!


You need to leave the Peyote to the natives. :dizzy:

stuvecorp
10-08-2008, 10:49 PM
You need to leave the Peyote to the natives. :dizzy:

That made me laugh:clapping:

BIGBEN2004
10-11-2008, 09:02 AM
Yeah, because I'd have to show those idiot Case dealers how a real skid steer is designed with a roomy cab and easy access engine bay!

What are you going to show them a Takeuchi?:laugh:

The excavating company I am working at part time had one of the new TL250's they just bought in the shop for the 50 hour service a month ago when the local Cat dealer came buy to talk to them. When he saw the machine he was so impressed that he actually started cursing Cat in that they didn't have a machine as easy to access or service as the Takeuchi. He did admit they looked like a very good machine.

Canon Landscaping
10-11-2008, 08:28 PM
Not sure what price they quoted him but a new track isn't even close to $900. Not really close to $1900 either. :dizzy:

They said $900 for a solideal