PDA

View Full Version : Racoons digging for grubs.


Organic a go go
10-02-2008, 01:09 PM
Got a customer who has had major grub issues in the past and lots of racoons digging the yard to find them. This year she has very few grubs, far less than I would normally treat, but she still has racoons digging.

Im thinking of some predator urine or bloodmeal to deter the coons. Anybody else have a suggestion? I'd go with some pepper spray but they have a dog as well and that wont work.

treegal1
10-02-2008, 02:11 PM
we use milorganite for deer and armdiolos, they hate the stuff, dont know about rocky, maybe some pee will be a good way...........

cudaclan
10-02-2008, 06:50 PM
Next season, beneficial nemotodes.

DUSTYCEDAR
10-05-2008, 12:47 AM
Black lab works well

Turbozcs2003
10-07-2008, 02:22 PM
Treeing Walker Coonhound works even better :)

treegal1
10-07-2008, 03:34 PM
here doggy, mmm tastes like chicken

Compostwerks LLC
10-07-2008, 07:15 PM
Next season, beneficial nematode.

That's the way to go. Nematodes are part of the answer.

You wont get rid of the racoons unless you reduce their food source. Pee all you want!

Grubs LOVE sick soils which are low in organic matter, so compost top dressing is a good start.

You guys get some serious cold in Chicago, so if you apply the 'Grub Guard' (Steinernema and Heterorhabditis species) type nematodes from North Country Organics, they will die for sure from the cold. These can be applied as a soil drench under the right conditions. If it were earlier in the season, I would give them a try.

Clarkus nematode's are quite robust when it comes to cold hardiness if I recall. These are native species.

You can make compost tea with compost (http://www.compostwerks.com/documents/Twehues007634Compost1.pdf) which has documented high numbers of these nematodes and apply to your soils. You don't want a long brew cycle because the little guys can drown. We have a lot of these nematodes in our compost. (but I don't fully understand exactly what is causing the high numbers).

Even better to buy compost which has lot's of predatory nematodes and top dress, but that can be an expensive and labor intensive proposition.

Peter

treegal1
10-07-2008, 08:40 PM
they will die for sure from the cold. These can be applied as a soil drench under the right conditions. If it were earlier in the season, I would give them a try.

Clarkus nematode's are quite robust when it comes to cold hardiness if I recall. These are native species.

You can make compost tea with compost (http://www.compostwerks.com/documents/Twehues007634Compost1.pdf) which has documented high numbers of these nematodes and apply to your soils. You don't want a long brew cycle because the little guys can drown. We have a lot of these nematodes in our compost. (but I don't fully understand exactly what is causing the high numbers).

Even better to buy compost which has lot's of predatory nematodes and top dress, but that can be an expensive and labor intensive proposition.

Peter where do you get your info from??? dont most nematodes like water and live in it, aren't not nematodes from the ocean floor????

Entomopathogenic nematodes in the genera Steinernema and Heterorhabditis are small round worms that are used as environmentally friendly bioinsecticides. These nematodes kill insects with the aid of mutualistic bacteria that are kept inside the nematode gut until host entry. The nematodes can be mass-produced using in vivo or in vitro (solid and liquid fermentation) methods. In vivo production yields depend on the host insect, inoculation parameters, and environmental conditions. In vivo production is costly due to labor and insect cost, but may be improved through automation or direct application of infected hosts. Liquid fermentation is currently the most prominent method of production. Succesful liquid production depends on maintaining sterile conditions, control of bioreactor parameters and maximizing nematode recovery.

we grow ours in an aquarium with barley straw and WATER, some times feeding them with magot slurry.

and with 8 cfm in a 200 gal. brewer there is going to be very little air to keep them

treegal1
10-07-2008, 09:19 PM
Pete, I also have to ask how and if you have established the type or spec. of the ones in your compost, is there some specific way you like????

Compostwerks LLC
10-07-2008, 09:29 PM
where do you get your info from??? dont most nematodes like water and live in it, aren't not nematodes from the ocean floor????

Entomopathogenic nematodes in the genera Steinernema and Heterorhabditis are small round worms that are used as environmentally friendly bioinsecticides. These nematodes kill insects with the aid of mutualistic bacteria that are kept inside the nematode gut until host entry. The nematodes can be mass-produced using in vivo or in vitro (solid and liquid fermentation) methods. In vivo production yields depend on the host insect, inoculation parameters, and environmental conditions. In vivo production is costly due to labor and insect cost, but may be improved through automation or direct application of infected hosts. Liquid fermentation is currently the most prominent method of production. Succesful liquid production depends on maintaining sterile conditions, control of bioreactor parameters and maximizing nematode recovery.

we grow ours in an aquarium with barley straw and WATER, some times feeding them with magot slurry.

and with 8 cfm in a 200 gal. brewer there is going to be very little air to keep them

My goal was to offer some advice in understandable terms, and offered an alternative to the scope of your recommendation to urinate on the offenders.

I agree that nematodes live in the water, and also salt water (most likely evolved from there), but are these the indigenous nematodes that we are trying to grow in most of our soils (as in the organic turf variety) that will survive in a sustainable fashion.

My goal was to offer an alternative to Steinernema and Heterorhabditis which are not cold hardy in zone 5.

But, I will not offer any retaliatory or defensive remarks aside from the independent data that is posted on my website (which isn't copied and pasted from elsewhere).

Compostwerks LLC
10-07-2008, 09:39 PM
Pete, I also have to ask how and if you have established the type or spec. of the ones in your compost, is there some specific way you like????

That is a great question.

What I like is not necessarily what the plant likes, so we try to make a compost which is very diverse. The plant will decide which organisms are applicable based upon several factors....soil moisture, temp, toxins, season...I could go on for a long time.

I think my job is easier than the plant's job!

treegal1
10-07-2008, 09:46 PM
I dont usually do any peeing, on any thing or any one, the pee in a jug is mostly sulfur and urea, the predator piss that we get is from a real live large cat, and it does work even around dumpsters that have no grubs, some thing about a big cat..............

and you don't have to get defensive with me just lay it out, I take as I give, this is an open forum, take a shot at me, even the cut and paste queen can take a few good shots, I am used to dealing with some of the things I have set my self up for, lets hear it about how a nematode does not like the 72 hour brew, with a pump, just for joke and kittens.

the high count in your compost may( just a guess don't get all hot, maybe just answer.) be from the use of mushroom compost, we have some trucked in every now and they just to get a boost, maybe you want to have a look at mine and you send me some of yours, heck some of the folks on this site have got a free bag from me, shoot me a pm and we can send you up some tropical delight, the worms are like 3 feet long and can scare a bass out of the lake.LOLOL

treegal1
10-07-2008, 09:50 PM
That is a great question.

What I like is not necessarily what the plant likes, so we try to make a compost which is very diverse. The plant will decide which organisms are applicable based upon several factors....soil moisture, temp, toxins, season...I could go on for a long time.

I think my job is easier than the plant's job!let me say again how do you know what type of nematode is in your compost, what methods of assay do you subscribe to or like

cudaclan
10-07-2008, 10:09 PM
Talking about worms… Just when you reestablish new grass seedlings up comes the squirrels burying their stash for winter. The boogers tore the bare spots up with the new growth. I have a considerable amount of earthworm activity in these bare spots, do skunks also forage them as well? Normally, bare spots are an indication of grub decimation. However, this is not the case. Applications of milky spore and neme’s (numerous years) have eliminated them. De-thatched the crabgrass and bare spots were exposed.

treegal1
10-07-2008, 10:54 PM
skunk, every one run, aaaahhhh. JK every one needs there feed, try and plant some wild bird seed in an out of the way part of the yard, then the critters can get there grub on, in an out of the way place, maybe some dog chow to get them into eating in that spot then after the bird food gets going in a while wean them off the dog chow.

also seems that wild millet brings in the good bugs that eat the bad ones same with sun flowers and wild poppy's

Compostwerks LLC
10-08-2008, 03:57 AM
let me say again how do you know what type of nematode is in your compost, what methods of assay do you subscribe to or like

I work with the Soil Foodweb by choice, but there are other labs out there. It's no secret as to their methods (direct microscopy). It's all on their website (http://www.soilfoodweb.com/). They do not rely on plate counts. I work with their New York lab mostly.

I choose to (or like to) work with them because the direct microscopy methods train me to work on my own with my own microscope to perform qualitative assays (not quantitative). So, when I send in a sample, I check it first with my scope and again when I get the results. This gives me exactly what I'm seeing with my own eyes.

The method; The nematodes are identified and counted, and their numbers extrapolated into how many are present in one gram of compost. For example, this assay (http://www.compostwerks.com/documents/Twehues007634Compost1.pdf) if I had done a better job of keeping this pile dryer, their would have actually been more nematodes per gram. There's more to this story, but I think those are the highlights.

Compostwerks LLC
10-08-2008, 04:19 AM
the high count in your compost may( just a guess don't get all hot, maybe just answer.) be from the use of mushroom compost, we have some trucked in every now and they just to get a boost, maybe you want to have a look at mine and you send me some of yours, heck some of the folks on this site have got a free bag from me, shoot me a pm and we can send you up some tropical delight, the worms are like 3 feet long and can scare a bass out of the lake.LOLOL

No, I won't get mad.

The only feed stocks we bring in are not composted. We use leaves, wood chips, pre-consumer vegetable waste (from some organic fruit and veg. stands), some grass clippings from organically tended lawns. We manage the composting process from start to finish. The only mushrooms that are in the compost grow in the compost, but only at certain times of the year.

I have heard mixed things about 'mushroom compost' (being made from spent growing media) but then again, I'm sure their not all created equally. Many people say that the salt index is high, and that there can be antibiotics. The ones that I've have direct experience with are dehydrated and pelletized. This was about 6-7 years ago. Not the kind of thing nematodes would survive through, although I doubt we're talking about the same thing.

Thanks for offering to swap some compost. I'll take you up on that in another month or so when things quiet down here.

treegal1
10-08-2008, 09:29 AM
maybe I should pose the question better, how do you identify the species of nematode in your compost. I under stand plate count and also direct microscopy. all Compost Tea samples are plate cultured to count protozoa, so how do they get the data for nematodes??numbers of individuals and identification to genus and function??

JDUtah
10-08-2008, 12:07 PM
I work with the Soil Foodweb by choice, but there are other labs out there. It's no secret as to their methods (direct microscopy). It's all on their website (http://www.soilfoodweb.com/). They do not rely on plate counts. I work with their New York lab mostly.

Peter,

Have you read the experience Tim had with his personal visit to the SFI lab? Read it on his website (http://microbeorganics.com/). I'll quote part of it.

As, I have relayed previously I had a telephone conversation with Elaine Ingham about 10 days prior where I understood that I would be able to have a quick look at one sample using one of their scopes just to see how the flagellates had survived the 4 hour transport. In the same conversation I had understood her to say that the plate culture method was not used for counting protozoa in Compost Tea samples, contrary to what the lab manager had told me. Rather, they use the direct count or direct determination to ascertain quantities of all organisms in Compost Tea samples. When I arrived at the lab I kinda expected to go in with the samples and watch the technician put the sample on the slide, have a peek, explain to her my reason for submitting the ‘B’ samples and head back to Yelm. I had witnessed this done for someone else several years ago when I spent a day in the SFI lab. I was told to wait for the technician. After about a half hour+ I was beckoned into the lab by the tech and there was a slide prepared and on a microscope set up for incident light fluorescence, what one uses for observing stained or autofluorescing organisms. At first I glanced down the eyepiece but then asked if there was not a scope I could use with transmitted light to observe the survival and activity of the protozoa. The tech replied “What!?”. (I’m not sure which part she did not understand or if she was just startled.) She then said the protozoa would not be observable for 5 days as they were being plated out. I replied ‘That’s silly, I observed around 100 active flagellates per 250X field a few hours ago. They don't need plating.’ I wish I had not blurted out ‘silly’ but the heat of the moment and mounting disappointment was overwhelming me. The technician suggested I speak to the lab manager. I did spend a few fruitless moments engaged in conversation with the manager trying to ratify what Elaine had told me. He determined that I had misunderstood Elaine, which I guess is correct and that all Compost Tea samples are plate cultured to count protozoa. I blurted out, again, that such a count is not valid. He rightfully corrected me that, in my opinion it is not valid and I corrected my statement to reflect this meaning.

You might ask to see the sample like Tim did. It would be interesting to see if the NY lab functions the same way.

BTW, I assume you are registered with SFI NY under another business name? The SFI NY site your site links to lists the clients they accept samples from. "Soil Foodweb New York is currently accepting samples from the following clients." I don't see Compostwerks? It doesn't look like they are accepting other clients?

Anyways, personally I would read Tim's experience then try to have one of my own...

Happy composting

treegal1
10-08-2008, 12:16 PM
hey JD, dude your cutin into my cut and paste man.LOLOL

Pete what you will find here more times than not, is that most of us got here by questioning every thing all the time!! got to go I think I hear something........

Compostwerks LLC
10-08-2008, 01:09 PM
Peter,

Have you read the experience Tim had with his personal visit to the SFI lab? Read it on his website (http://microbeorganics.com/). I'll quote part of it.



You might ask to see the sample like Tim did. It would be interesting to see if the NY lab functions the same way.

BTW, I assume you are registered with SFI NY under another business name? The SFI NY site your site links to lists the clients they accept samples from. "Soil Foodweb New York is currently accepting samples from the following clients." I don't see Compostwerks? It doesn't look like they are accepting other clients?

Anyways, personally I would read Tim's experience then try to have one of my own...

Happy composting

Yes, I read that from Tim's site quite some time ago. It seemed to be an interesting experience that we can all learn from. The truth sometimes lands somewhere in the middle, but I'm won't pass judgment onto Tim or the SFW which I both have a great deal of respect for.

You're quite correct about SFW NY not accepting more business.

We have an active account with SFW NY...I think Paul Wagner just does not have the time to keep the 'current client's page current....which would support why he just can't take anymore business now. Thanks for pointing that out, because I never took notice.

We use the NY lab whenever possible because of turn around, and also because they spend most of their time working with samples from our specific region.

The link to his website was done under his permission. It's all good.

And a good composting to you too JD!~~

Compostwerks LLC
10-08-2008, 01:12 PM
hey JD, dude your cutin into my cut and paste man.LOLOL

Pete what you will find here more times than not, is that most of us got here by questioning every thing all the time!! got to go I think I hear something........

Questioning is fine by me. That is how we learn!!!

Hey TG, what is that avitar that you have??

Pete

JDUtah
10-08-2008, 02:18 PM
Yes, I read that from Tim's site quite some time ago. It seemed to be an interesting experience that we can all learn from. The truth sometimes lands somewhere in the middle, but I'm won't pass judgment onto Tim or the SFW which I both have a great deal of respect for.

You're quite correct about SFW NY not accepting more business.

We have an active account with SFW NY...I think Paul Wagner just does not have the time to keep the 'current client's page current....which would support why he just can't take anymore business now. Thanks for pointing that out, because I never took notice.

We use the NY lab whenever possible because of turn around, and also because they spend most of their time working with samples from our specific region.

The link to his website was done under his permission. It's all good.

And a good composting to you too JD!

Thanks for the reply. I think your right, middle ground is where the truth lies. I respect Tim, can't say I have interacted with SFI. Sounds like Paul is busy. Getting him to find time to get your name on that list would help marketing credibility. I know for me, when I saw they weren't accepting more clients and thinking that you were one that they did (short list) I thought, "cool, this guy is in the loop". I think it would be another good tool once your name is on there. I also like that you post their results on your page... I like volunteer openness.

JDUtah
10-08-2008, 02:19 PM
hey JD, dude your cutin into my cut and paste man.LOLOL

Pete what you will find here more times than not, is that most of us got here by questioning every thing all the time!! got to go I think I hear something........

haha, practices that work catch on quickly. :)

Compostwerks LLC
10-08-2008, 02:33 PM
Yes, I'll have to discuss that with him. Having our name on there would establish more credibility. I'm in contact with him about once a month. Next time I see him I will remind him. I guess having his assays posted on our site lends at least some credibility.....

Offering test results to your customers is key. If we are not careful, we all know who will come marching in to regulate us....:usflag:

treegal1
10-08-2008, 03:07 PM
the old one was passion flower, the new one is all saints, as in hollow mass.

Compostwerks LLC
10-08-2008, 03:24 PM
Oh, isn't that a little early? I thought that was Nov 1st and 2nd. I could be wrong...

treegal1
10-08-2008, 03:47 PM
is it ever to early to have a spiritual message?? do you put up the xmas {saturnalia} tree and take it down in one day, or through the left overs out at the end of thanks giving { THE DESTRUCTION OF THE MOORES NOV 25 1491} ???