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nosparkplugs
10-04-2008, 12:42 AM
Well I finally could not take it any longer so I drove to Hernando Equipment in Mississippi, about 17.5 miles from Memphis, did not realize BB dealer so close. Anyway I missed their two AOS 35hpcat diesels left in stock sold both last week to the same guy. The dealer had 1 AOS gasburner the 6000 AOS 27hp 90 degree v-twin kawasaki LC 60" deck, two lightnings with the 26hp kawasaki LC 52" & 60" decks.

First if your comparing the BB ZT series you will see at TSC stores, to the lighting or the AOS line up theirs a huge difference in who the mowers are geared towards.

The AOS 27 HP LC 90 degree v-twin Kawasaki 60" deck, was $8,995, and include a michigan suspension seat; which I must add is the most comfortable suspension seat I have sat in, I'm not sure about the competitions suspension seats features, but the BB's seat reclines from 5 degree's to 15 degree's something that I noticed right when I sat down very comfortable like a lazy boy.

My first impression is Bad Boy will dominate the market in do time; especially with the build quality vs cost vs engine line-up. Without calling names the Bad Boy AOS was hands down the best ZTR I have seen to date, and their prices leave enough cash in your bank account you would have to be flat out unaffected buy these economic times to over luck such quality for the price.

The AOS frame is massive, no wonder the BB engine line up is so broad right up to the 35hp cat diesel. No other mower frame I have looked at is so well built, and open to view as the BB AOS line. A+++

The instant lift electric deck height adjustment, is almost to simple, and I felt "lazy" for the first time when it came to changing deck height:laugh: I really did not see any problem getting adjusted to such a effortless way to adjust the deck height.

Deck design, at 1/4" solid steel, my 7-Iron did not seem so thick anymore. The deck hanging system has no lateral "play" when I tried to push it from side to side. The large turn buckles on each side of the deck are massive, and control the pitch of the deck front to back. With that said I cannot see how the BB cut quality could be nothing less than high quality; their seems to be nothing left to chance on the deck hanging hardware it's heavy duty.

The Demo was short, my first though was the center of gravity does not feel like your as high up, as SOOOO many folks have said, nothing is lower than a Walker, and going up to the AOS seat height I still felt fine, very acceptable center of gravity. These BB AOS 15mph midmounts are bread to run, it did not respond well in tight area's; however i was comparing it to the Walker precise steering, nothing beats a Walker on steering. Dealer said I could not engage the blades in the grass:cry: after some S-turns, and simulated mowing around the building; again I could not see myself doing highly landscaped accounts right then; however this mower will shine in wide area's IMO. Mastering highly landscaped area's will come with more seat time, but this mower will be mainly used for wide open area's.

EZ-Ride System
The "death wobble" on the front caster was NOT present, and the EZ-Ride system on the front caster did not get in the way of trimming close to buildings or around the obstacles that were present, like some have said???. I would need at least 4hrs of seat time to answer if the EZ-Ride truly works; however it did not take away from the ride or mowing/trimming abilities of the deck. EZ-Ride is the added bonus in the design IMO.

It's very hard to compare the BB AOS line up midmounts to the other major manufactures; because you get so much more for your dollar with these Bad Boy AOS mowers, that was, and still is my impression. I have never considered myself one to purchase "cheap" or "second tier" equipment, Yet BB has done a great job of manufacturing a simple, tough, economical, easy to maintain high quality, largest line up of quality engine manufactures from gas to a Cat diesel. So I guess I am "Steeping Down" in the business, no different than my Dodge Cummins to many:laugh:

dura to the max
10-04-2008, 12:56 AM
thanks for a great unbiased review. i agree that BB will probably dominate eventually. they seem to stay w/ the competition w/ their R and D. i would bet that there is a w/b and stander in the near future too...

ALC-GregH
10-04-2008, 08:32 AM
Just wondering how you concluded that it doesn't take away from the cutting and trimming of the deck if you never turned the blades on?

"I would need at least 4hrs of seat time to answer if the EZ-Ride truly works; however it did not take away from the ride or mowing/trimming abilities of the deck. EZ-Ride is the added bonus in the design IMO."

Happy Frog
10-04-2008, 02:06 PM
Looks like someone has come to realize that there is some truth in what Bad Boy Owners have said for a long time.
The EZ-Ride should not affect your ability to trim with the 60" and 72" decks while it does affect it somewhat on the 52" deck.
I had the front casters wobble a few times at high speed on roads and sometime on rough turf. Reducing the speed and accelerating again solves the issue.
The Michigan seat used on the Bad Boy is no different from the other manufacturers and it is indeed a very good seat.
The high riding position makes one believe that the center of gravity is higher than the other brands of ZTR while in fact, the heavy frame and deck keeps the center of gravity pretty low. The operator is just seating higher and makes him confuse his own center of gravity with the center of gravity of the mower.
I suggest you contact the customer who bought the two AOS Diesel and get to demo one of them and actually cut grass with it.

Here is the trick to make zero turns on a Bad Boy with minimum or no tear of the turf:
The Bad Boy controls are quite sensitive when going reverse and it is easy to tear up the turf when trying to make a true zero turn (wheels moving in opposite directions). The trick is to stop the mower and pull on both controls till you start moving back very slowly. Then push on one of the control lever while leaving the other one in the slight reverse position to make your turn. This will prevent the wheels from loosing their grip and tearing the grass.
Make sure to keep this "secret" within the Bad Boy community, it might help the Scag owners if they knew about it... :laugh:

Mike Blevins
10-04-2008, 02:37 PM
Just wondering how you concluded that it doesn't take away from the cutting and trimming of the deck if you never turned the blades on?

"I would need at least 4hrs of seat time to answer if the EZ-Ride truly works; however it did not take away from the ride or mowing/trimming abilities of the deck. EZ-Ride is the added bonus in the design IMO."

I agree, Sounds like he went back and read some "negatives" on the badboy and now that he has a 5 minute demo and he is considering purchasing one of these mowers he has to downplay the negatives to make hiself feel good enough to purchese one. I also "demoed" a badboy back in the spring because of all the hype and my opinion is the exact opposite. But I got to actually mow with it and manuever up and down slopes, etc. The badboy can't hold a candle on hills with the Turf Tiger. I mow alot of hills. Plus I don't keep machines very long so resale value is another deal breaker.

retrodog
10-04-2008, 02:38 PM
I believe the AOS Gasser is understated with BB. I really believe its a really good buy. The 16cc pumps paired with the 27hp horizontal shaft LC kawasaki is nice. Definately the Lightning with the 26hp LC is our best seller, but someone looking at the TT, the 840 Deere for $12000, the Super Z, etc. It feels 2 times better than the lightning for the $1000 price difference. While we have sold over 40 of the lightning units and only 2 of the aos gassers, it is something we overlook too. My customers jump up to the Diesel from the lightning. I believe that to compare apples to apples from the TT, etc these guys need to put the aos up against it for a demo. What is funny when comparing is when you are comparing the price points. For instance when comparing Scag to BB just pick a mower from another brand, then go to the Bad Boy dealer and tell them the price you are looking at, then compare. I see most people looking at gas mowers spending $11000 or more. With BB you get a 28hp Cat diesel for $11295 or a 35hp 4 cylinder for $12195. So say you pick out a 31hp kawasaki TT for $11800 then you look at the 28hp Cat from BB for cheaper, you will be blown away.

ALC-GregH
10-04-2008, 02:43 PM
You can't pivot on either rear tire or you WILL tear up the grass. I always use the "k" turn to prevent this from happening. I've found that even if you have both wheels turning, it will still tear some grass up. Scag owner here, secret is out of the bag. LOL. :D

retrodog
10-04-2008, 02:48 PM
Looks like someone has come to realize that there is some truth in what Bad Boy Owners have said for a long time.
The EZ-Ride should not affect your ability to trim with the 60" and 72" decks while it does affect it somewhat on the 52" deck.
I had the front casters wobble a few times at high speed on roads and sometime on rough turf. Reducing the speed and accelerating again solves the issue.
The Michigan seat used on the Bad Boy is no different from the other manufacturers and it is indeed a very good seat.
The high riding position makes one believe that the center of gravity is higher than the other brands of ZTR while in fact, the heavy frame and deck keeps the center of gravity pretty low. The operator is just seating higher and makes him confuse his own center of gravity with the center of gravity of the mower.
I suggest you contact the customer who bought the two AOS Diesel and get to demo one of them and actually cut grass with it.

Here is the trick to make zero turns on a Bad Boy with minimum or no tear of the turf:
The Bad Boy controls are quite sensitive when going reverse and it is easy to tear up the turf when trying to make a true zero turn (wheels moving in opposite directions). The trick is to stop the mower and pull on both controls till you start moving back very slowly. Then push on one of the control lever while leaving the other one in the slight reverse position to make your turn. This will prevent the wheels from loosing their grip and tearing the grass.
Make sure to keep this "secret" within the Bad Boy community, it might help the Scag owners if they knew about it... :laugh:

Hey, your wobble on your front wheels is an easy fix. Take your dust covers off, take the cotter pin out, and tighten the big nut a little. It will set it to higher speed setting for the roads. We do it to all of the fast mowers before we deliver.

retrodog
10-04-2008, 02:56 PM
I agree, Sounds like he went back and read some "negatives" on the badboy and now that he has a 5 minute demo and he is considering purchasing one of these mowers he has to downplay the negatives to make hiself feel good enough to purchese one. I also "demoed" a badboy back in the spring because of all the hype and my opinion is the exact opposite. But I got to actually mow with it and manuever up and down slopes, etc. The badboy can't hold a candle on hills with the Turf Tiger. I mow alot of hills. Plus I don't keep machines very long so resale value is another deal breaker.

Like I said, your dealer should have given you an aos series to blow you away. The lightning you demoed was $8295 retail with the 32hp Vanguard 12cc pumps etc, you should have looked at the $8795 to $9495 ranged AOS with the 16cc pumps, beefier frame, 27hp LC Kawa, or 35hp Vanguard, you would have been buying the BB. I personally compared the 26hp TT and the lightning myself when I bought my first BB as a consumer, and what sold me was the comfort level of the BB, the cut was the same, beefier deck, and the sheer price difference. The best price I got on the TT was $9800, and the Bad Boy with the same engine was $7495, but I admit the TT felt a little better overall due to the bigger hydro system and it felt beefier, if the price wasn't so much different I might have considered the TT, but if I was sitting on the AOS 27hp LC Kawa with 16cc pumps for $8795, it would have been a definate no-brainer, or even the 28hp Caterpillar for $11295............You didn't get justice on your demo, or you would have been sitting on alot nicer machine right now. BB's "hill mower" is the AOS gas line it has a pretty neat weight system designed for mowing on hills etc.

MONTE
10-04-2008, 03:45 PM
According to the bad boy dealers around here they do dominate! Problem is I can count on one hand how many I see in use! I do think they have some good features but so does every company! As far as around here goes they are going to continue to have a uphill climb against the others!

dura to the max
10-04-2008, 05:21 PM
According to the bad boy dealers around here they do dominate! Problem is I can count on one hand how many I see in use! I do think they have some good features but so does every company! As far as around here goes they are going to continue to have a uphill climb against the others!

absolutely! as it has been said, to enter an established market you must build the product better, or the same product cheaper. this is so true, but when we see that machine being so much cheaper, we shy away thinking they skimped somewhere. BB has a long hard road to get to the front of the pack, but it seems that they build a very compatible machine cheaper. it wont take long...but it wont be easy for them to get the consumers in this industry to even demo the machines, much less buy one b/c we see the sticker price and walk away thinking were looking at a cheap, crappy mower.

nosparkplugs
10-04-2008, 05:51 PM
I agree, Sounds like he went back and read some "negatives" on the badboy and now that he has a 5 minute demo and he is considering purchasing one of these mowers he has to downplay the negatives to make hiself feel good enough to purchese one. I also "demoed" a badboy back in the spring because of all the hype and my opinion is the exact opposite. But I got to actually mow with it and manuever up and down slopes, etc. The badboy can't hold a candle on hills with the Turf Tiger. I mow alot of hills. Plus I don't keep machines very long so resale value is another deal breaker.

I have purchased 3 ZTR's with no "mowing demo", John Deere F-680 60" 7-Iron. the Scag Tiger cub 48" velocity deck 20hp kohler v-twin, Walker MT20 48"GHS;no regrets to date, except the Scag Tiger Cub.

It's common knowledge that negative press, is sometimes the best free PR campaign a company could get. In the case of Bad Boy ZTR's all the negative threads on here is what caught my attention. 12 months ago I would, and was "bashing" these mowers myself. When your a newer company, running against the established competition of course their will be negativity, or strong opposition.


I'm in business to make money, but I like to save money too, and do love to be able to boast the loyalty/$$$ card when ever possible with my equipment purchases. The green industry is changing, gone are the free spending times of years past on equipment /fuel. I have changed my business model to survive & grow,and If that means stepping out side the box of conventional "LAWSITE" ZTR purchasing wisdom, and I get one of those cheap arse, second tier BB AOS mowers so be it. I will have extra cash in my bank account, can take that cash and invest it in advertising or reduced debt something many companies overlook during these times. "The writing is on the wall" any financial adviser will suggest reducing debt, cutting costs whenever possible in these economic times. People, or companies have less disposable income to spend on goods, or service.

Regardless of brand, the resale values of ZTR's are reducing, as the industry moves towards more fuel efficient models, as banks tighten their lending standards making all loans harder to get on new or used equipment,

I feel a ZTR purchase is a investment in that company, with that said Bad Boy Mowers is a wise business investment.

puppypaws
10-04-2008, 08:16 PM
I have purchased 3 ZTR's with no "mowing demo", John Deere F-680 60" 7-Iron. the Scag Tiger cub 48" velocity deck 20hp kohler v-twin, Walker MT20 48"GHS;no regrets to date, except the Scag Tiger Cub.

It's common knowledge that negative press, is sometimes the best free PR campaign a company could get. In the case of Bad Boy ZTR's all the negative threads on here is what caught my attention. 12 months ago I would, and was "bashing" these mowers myself. When your a newer company, running against the established competition of course their will be negativity, or strong opposition.


I'm in business to make money, but I like to save money too, and do love to be able to boast the loyalty/$$$ card when ever possible with my equipment purchases. The green industry is changing, gone are the free spending times of years past on equipment /fuel. I have changed my business model to survive & grow,and If that means stepping out side the box of conventional "LAWSITE" ZTR purchasing wisdom, and I get one of those cheap arse, second tier BB AOS mowers so be it. I will have extra cash in my bank account, can take that cash and invest it in advertising or reduced debt something many companies overlook during these times. "The writing is on the wall" any financial adviser will suggest reducing debt, cutting costs whenever possible in these economic times. People, or companies have less disposable income to spend on goods, or service.

Regardless of brand, the resale values of ZTR's are reducing, as the industry moves towards more fuel efficient models, as banks tighten their lending standards making all loans harder to get on new or used equipment,

I feel a ZTR purchase is a investment in that company, with that said Bad Boy Mowers is a wise business investment.

The electric lift is fine but believe me, you do not want to be without the foot assist. Your reaction time crossing banks, ditches and picking up over obstacles is so much faster than the electric actuator switch. I know this for fact; I've run the Lightning model for 30 hrs., that is a real demo, and to think the dealer you went to wouldn't even let you engage the blades.

They delivered one 25 miles in an enclosed trailer for me to compare against my Hustler Super Z knowing I wasn't even going to buy the mower. Now that is a special dealer, and it wasn't even mine. My dealer is handling the BB line now and he told me last week he was going to the BB factory next week and would come back Friday. He said he was going to take the AOS diesel model to his farm and run it to see what he thought. I may get him to bring it to me first to see how the big diesel feels.

BarrFarms
10-04-2008, 08:37 PM
Is the bagging market down in your area? I hadn't noticed it much here. I like the Bad Boy mowers aswell, I ran a 28 hp cat 72" for 4-5 hours with no problems at a couple bushog type jobs.


Thanks,

puppypaws
10-04-2008, 09:57 PM
Is the bagging market down in your area? I hadn't noticed it much here. I like the Bad Boy mowers aswell, I ran a 28 hp cat 72" for 4-5 hours with no problems at a couple bushog type jobs.

Thanks,

They are powerful, I cut 30" tall signal grass with the 32 hp Vanguard on the Lightning and it only dropped 200 rpms, it would have choked my 28 efi down trying to take a full swipe.

How did the BB do for you, I'll bet you never heard the engine change sounds.

BarrFarms
10-04-2008, 10:07 PM
Man I didn't try it grass near as tall as what you did, we try to rogue that stuff real early on! It worked out really well though, tons of torque, and excellent fuel economy even for a diesel engine. Is the 35 hp cat 4 cylinder? I see several 35/60 or 72" units sold to mow pastures with.

puppypaws
10-04-2008, 10:41 PM
Man I didn't try it grass near as tall as what you did, we try to rogue that stuff real early on! It worked out really well though, tons of torque, and excellent fuel economy even for a diesel engine. Is the 35 hp cat 4 cylinder? I see several 35/60 or 72" units sold to mow pastures with.

Yep, the 35 is four cylinders. I don't know of any cutting that would pull that engine back, you could probably bush hog with it. The components on the mower must be very strong, that engine is not going to stop so there has to be something to give, it could burn the belt off before the engine would pull down.

nosparkplugs
10-04-2008, 11:35 PM
Yep, the 35 is four cylinders. I don't know of any cutting that would pull that engine back, you could probably bush hog with it. The components on the mower must be very strong, that engine is not going to stop so there has to be something to give, it could burn the belt off before the engine would pull down.

Retrodog, has become a great long distance friend, we talk over the phone, and just listening to him describe how the AOS diesel performs is impressive. I think what happens is once you demo the AOS diesel you are spoiled it just chunks the grass no matter the length, the word is out, I think thats why the local BB dealer I visited is selling these AOS diesels with no demo's why else would anyone purchase two AOS diesels on the spot. I going to do the same, 1 AOS diesel though:laugh: I need no mowing demo, I have got my "seat time in":laugh: seen & read enough about these mowers. I'm sold


I almost purchased that AOS 60" deck, 27hp 90 degree v-twin LC Kawasaki for $8,995 friday; because only on the pipe line right of way would I truly need the AOS 35hp diesel. Even then I would think the AOS 27hp gasburner would be satisfactory; however I'm going to wait until I find a AOS diesel.
For such a poor selling ZTR the BB dealers cannot keep them stocked, the dealer i visited friday stocks two, and sold both to one guy:laugh:

Honestly the AOS gasburner looks under rated, I was not expecting that beefy of a machine. The AOS gasburner engine craddle, made the 27hp LC Kawaski look small. Compared to other ZTR frames the AOS gasburner could handle diesels IMO. The AOS diesel craddle is stronger:laugh: I am very comfortable with purchasing one of these BB AOS mowers now

MONTE
10-05-2008, 01:04 AM
Did Bad Boy change there mowing deck?

Happy Frog
10-05-2008, 02:39 AM
Retrodog, has become a great long distance friend, we talk over the phone, and just listening to him describe how the AOS diesel performs is impressive. I think what happens is once you demo the AOS diesel you are spoiled it just chunks the grass no matter the length, the word is out, I think thats why the local BB dealer I visited is selling these AOS diesels with no demo's why else would anyone purchase two AOS diesels on the spot. I going to do the same, 1 AOS diesel though:laugh: I need no mowing demo, I have got my "seat time in":laugh: seen & read enough about these mowers. I'm sold


I almost purchased that AOS 60" deck, 27hp 90 degree v-twin LC Kawasaki for $8,995 friday; because only on the pipe line right of way would I truly need the AOS 35hp diesel. Even then I would think the AOS 27hp gasburner would be satisfactory; however I'm going to wait until I find a AOS diesel.
For such a poor selling ZTR the BB dealers cannot keep them stocked, the dealer i visited friday stocks two, and sold both to one guy:laugh:

Honestly the AOS gasburner looks under rated, I was not expecting that beefy of a machine. The AOS gasburner engine craddle, made the 27hp LC Kawaski look small. Compared to other ZTR frames the AOS gasburner could handle diesels IMO. The AOS diesel craddle is stronger:laugh: I am very comfortable with purchasing one of these BB AOS mowers now

I second Retrodog: The foot assist pedal is really a must have. Make sure you get that option... :drinkup:

ALC-GregH
10-05-2008, 09:38 AM
what kind of fuel economy does the 3 and 4cyl diesel's get compared to the gasser in terms of hours per gallon, or should that be gallons per hour??

ALC-GregH
10-05-2008, 09:41 AM
Right now my Scag is getting about 1 gallon per hour at wot with a 25 Kohler Command Pro cutting average length grass.

puppypaws
10-05-2008, 09:56 AM
Man I didn't try it grass near as tall as what you did, we try to rogue that stuff real early on! It worked out really well though, tons of torque, and excellent fuel economy even for a diesel engine. Is the 35 hp cat 4 cylinder? I see several 35/60 or 72" units sold to mow pastures with.

I don't let grass get that tall either, I did this area on purpose. I put the Bad Boy in every cutting situation known to man as a demonstration for a detailed view. I cut large wet grass, small wet grass, large dry grass, small dry grass, clean pure grass, grass and mixed weeds, pure weeds and all these conditions wet and dry. I cut through standing water, slick banks, dry banks, (steep 25°+) basically anything you could put a mower through is what I did. I then wrote a review comparing it with my Hustler Super Z, even to the point of hand measuring everything a person would be interested in knowing. This information is in this forum with pictures side by side of the two mowers.

puppypaws
10-05-2008, 10:10 AM
I don't let grass get that tall either, I did this area on purpose. I put the Bad Boy in every cutting situation known to man as a demonstration for a detailed view. I cut large wet grass, small wet grass, large dry grass, small dry grass, clean pure grass, grass and mixed weeds, pure weeds and all these conditions wet and dry. I cut through standing water, slick banks, dry banks, (steep 25°+) basically anything you could put a mower through is what I did. I then wrote a review comparing it with my Hustler Super Z, even to the point of hand measuring everything a person would be interested in knowing. This information is in this forum with pictures side by side of the two mowers.

You can see in these pictures it is hard to believe a mower will cut through this and only drop a couple of hundred rpms, no doubt I went over it twice but it is amazing at the least.

http://www.lawnsite.com/showthread.php?t=192888

BarrFarms
10-05-2008, 10:50 AM
Thanks Puppy Paws, for the review. I wish now I would've tried it in many more conditions than I did. We used it in 5" or so bermuda at a large account. We mowed pads, and around wells on the farm. Mainly tall bermuda, milkweed, pigweeds, etc. It makes a great machine to trim behind a bushog sm 60 or the hx 14 aswell!

Thanks,

mag360
10-05-2008, 01:03 PM
BB AOS 27/61 = $8995
Scag TT 27/61 = $9495

BB AOS 28 cat = $11295
Scag TT 25 kubota = $10900

Pricing is not all that different between these two companies on certain machines. The trick is to find the promo machines from any manufacturer and compare.

BB AOS 35 vanguard = $9495
Scag TT 35 vanguard = $10500-11200
Cub Tank 37/72 = $9495
Exmark AS 28/72 = $9300

dura to the max
10-05-2008, 03:18 PM
You can see in these pictures it is hard to believe a mower will cut through this and only drop a couple of hundred rpms, no doubt I went over it twice but it is amazing at the least.

http://www.lawnsite.com/showthread.php?t=192888

that was a great read, would it be possible for you to post a link to the other thread that you mentioned starting?

nosparkplugs
10-05-2008, 08:45 PM
:laugh:BB AOS 27/61 = $8995
Scag TT 27/61 = $9495

BB AOS 28 cat = $11295
Scag TT 25 kubota = $10900

Pricing is not all that different between these two companies on certain machines. The trick is to find the promo machines from any manufacturer and compare.

BB AOS 35 vanguard = $9495
Scag TT 35 vanguard = $10500-11200
Cub Tank 37/72 = $9495
Exmark AS 28/72 = $9300

Scag just went up 10% did you include that


Here in Memphis the Scag TT 28hp cat 61" is $14.995 without tax, Compared to the BB AOS 28hp cat 60" at $11,295. Also the Scag dealer here does not stock the Kubota diesel model anymore, their saying Scag is discontinuing the Kubota engine; however the Scag website currently has it as a option?

I disagree with those Scag prices; because here the Scag dealer as a general rule is higher than any other dealer/ manufacture. I have owned the Scags used them for 2 seasons, their "simply" overated. A belt on the scag slips off just like any other mower, bolts get loose, I know it happened to me. My favorite, the good old re-sale value myth, heck look at Scags website on "re-sale value" they don't give a straight answer "depending on area". Your assuming your able to get more for these machines; everyone is looking for a deal right now.

Bad Boy has stepped up to the plate; their offering a stronger frame, thicker deck, more standard features, higher HP, for $2,500 to $3,000 less depending on the Scag dealer pricing. Scag dealers have big heads too no promo deals around here or low prices

OK why did Scag stop new TT production with a 28HP Cat diesel, for $14,995. When BB offers the AOS diesel 35hp 4 cylinder cat is $12,765 that is way more mower for the money:laugh: Sorry but Think Scag is hemorrhaging now :laugh:

I have no problem justifying a $14,000 mower when necessary, the Walker MT is expensive to many LCO on here; however their worth every dollar, have only one real rival mower the Exmark Navigator, and their almost equal in price now. Yes Scag is the vetran company builds a quality product; however I suspect their no differant than any large established company now, it just costs them more to produce a ZTR now, in a changing green industry that is struggling to reduce operating costs, while maintaining quality. It is not necessary to purchase the Scag anymore to acheive the same quality cut, with the higher Scag price tag.

timber132007
10-05-2008, 08:53 PM
Does anyone know if the foot assist is available as a factory installed option on the AOS diesel series yet. My local dealer said only on the lower models do they offer it. This was the only thing that held me back from purchasing one. I thought I heard a while back that they were going to offer the foot assist as an option on all '09 models. Does anyone know?

mag360
10-05-2008, 09:14 PM
:laugh:

Scag just went up 10% did you include that


Here in Memphis the Scag TT 28hp cat 61" is $14.995 without tax, Compared to the BB AOS 28hp cat 60" at $11,295. Also the Scag dealer here does not stock the Kubota diesel model anymore, their saying Scag is discontinuing the Kubota engine; however the Scag website currently has it as a option?

I disagree with those Scag prices; because here the Scag dealer as a general rule is higher than any other dealer/ manufacture. I have owned the Scags used them for 2 seasons, their "simply" overated. A belt on the scag slips off just like any other mower, bolts get loose, I know it happened to me. My favorite, the good old re-sale value myth, heck look at Scags website on "re-sale value" they don't give a straight answer "depending on area". Your assuming your able to get more for these machines; everyone is looking for a deal right now.

Bad Boy has stepped up to the plate; their offering a stronger frame, thicker deck, more standard features, higher HP, for $2,500 to $3,000 less depending on the Scag dealer pricing. Scag dealers have big heads too no promo deals around here or low prices

OK why did Scag stop new TT production with a 28HP Cat diesel, for $14,995. When BB offers the AOS diesel 35hp 4 cylinder cat is $12,765 that is way more mower for the money:laugh: Sorry but Think Scag is hemorrhaging now :laugh:

I have no problem justifying a $14,000 mower when necessary, the Walker MT is expensive to many LCO on here; however their worth every dollar, have only one real rival mower the Exmark Navigator, and their almost equal in price now. Yes Scag is the vetran company builds a quality product; however I suspect their no differant than any large established company now, it just costs them more to produce a ZTR now, in a changing green industry that is struggling to reduce operating costs, while maintaining quality. It is not necessary to purchase the Scag anymore to acheive the same quality cut, with the higher Scag price tag.

I'm with you on many of those points. All brands have their issues---Scag has fewer than most. Belts don't slip off of a turf tiger but they will on any vertical motor mower like the cub and wildcat. The machine you had was entry level and built to basic standards. You have to upgrade to the turf tiger to get a machine that is better designed than many out there. Scag and Exmark theoretically have the highest resale value due to brand recognition.
There are promo machines out there from most commercial mower manufacturers that price out close to comparable Bad Boy models but Bad Boy seems to have the lowest pricing if you take an average across the board on every model. There are great deals to be had (usually they turn up right after you buy a machine:) ).

I'd look into Bad Boy if we had a local dealer. Only a few models appeal to me based on a low price. Most of the more commercial models are no cheaper than other brands so it comes down to cut quality and durability.
The 35 cat is a great price.

MONTE
10-05-2008, 09:45 PM
So did BB change there deck or not? Does anyone now?

MONTE
10-05-2008, 09:53 PM
That big diesel might be worth looking at if they changed the deck! If it is the same one I demoed I would go with the 35hp Dixie Chopper Excalibur! They sell for $13,500 here!

timber132007
10-05-2008, 10:14 PM
I just saw on Bad Boy's website that they offer the foot assist as an option on the AOS gas series but not diesel. I've heard before that on the diesel series the counterweight location is the issue with the foot assist not being available.

nosparkplugs
10-05-2008, 10:38 PM
I guess running the Walker, & the JD front mowers, the idea of no foot assist is a mute point for me; been doing fine for years with front mowers ,and their is no foot assist to raise those decks standard. So the foot assist option is nothing I would need or miss, and I really do like the BB electric deck lift, in the 100 degree summer days that feature is going to be nice. Every feature about the BB, got me excited, just like the Walker did before I purchased it, I know the feeling when I have found the right mower.

Monte, what was/is the problem with the BB deck?

timber132007
10-05-2008, 10:51 PM
Unfortunately the areas I cut have a lot of mature pine trees with roots that stick up three to four inches above ground so I have to constantly lift the deck.

puppypaws
10-05-2008, 10:57 PM
I guess running the Walker, & the JD front mowers, the idea of no foot assist is a mute point for me; been doing fine for years with front mowers ,and their is no foot assist to raise those decks standard. So the foot assist option is nothing I would need or miss, and I really do like the BB electric deck lift, in the 100 degree summer days that feature is going to be nice. Every feature about the BB, got me excited, just like the Walker did before I purchased it, I know the feeling when I have found the right mower.

Monte, what was/is the problem with the BB deck?

BB has the best of both worlds with the electric lift as well as the foot assist. That is absolutely amazing to me you don't see a need for the foot assist. The only person mowing grass that would not need foot assist is one mowing nothing but flat well maintained property with no change in contours such as ditches and changes is elevations to cross. I use mine several times a day crossing things where I would have to stop completely to raise the electric deck high enough to get over places that would scrape. I just feather it up a little with my foot and never slow down.

Unfortunately the areas I cut have a lot of mature pine trees with roots that stick up three to four inches above ground so I have to constantly lift the deck.

Just one of the foot assist advantages I am talking about. I could not imagine trying to mow without one.

nosparkplugs
10-05-2008, 11:37 PM
My lowest customer setting is 3 1/2", again if that BB Foot Assist is not standard, I'm positive I will be fine without it.

Their is no foot assist on the Walker or JD F680 front mower. Walker does sell an optional expensive arse "transport" mode lift, don't have it, don't need it.

The Scag Tiger Cubs we ran had the foot assist standard. The times I used it was only to load it on the trailer. Currently I'm never in that much of a hurry that I can not stop & raise the deck. I cut nothing lower than 3 1/2".

BarrFarms
10-05-2008, 11:49 PM
Boy that deck lift is high! The electric is nice on the BB, I had alittle bit of trouble stopping it, with practice it'd be no big deal.

puppypaws
10-06-2008, 12:04 AM
My lowest customer setting is 3 1/2", again if that BB Foot Assist is not standard, I'm positive I will be fine without it.

Their is no foot assist on the Walker or JD F680 front mower. Walker does sell an optional expensive arse "transport" mode lift, don't have it, don't need it.

The Scag Tiger Cubs we ran had the foot assist standard. The times I used it was only to load it on the trailer. Currently I'm never in that much of a hurry that I can not stop & raise the deck. I cut nothing lower than 3 1/2".

You have never been on anything that will cut grass at 15 mph. My Super Z does it a large percentage of the time and the BB AOS will blow your mind when you have never cut grass that fast. You will hear people on this site say you can't cut grass that fast and do a good job, this is not true.

I put the Lightning (14 mph mower, AOS is 15 mph) side by side with my Super Z. The dealer rep was running the BB and I was running my Super Z on flat ground in medium heavy grass. My 15 mph Super Z would pull away slowly, about the difference you would see in 1 mph but you never heard the 32 Vanguard on the BB change sounds where you could hear the 28 efi fall off a little in the heavier grass. I would say if you were cutting real heavy (maybe also damp) grass the BB would cut a little faster because of the power difference. When you have enough power to hold the operating rpms at peak performance your blade tip speed will never drop causing the mower to slow down.

The BB rode good compared to most but did not handle and ride as good as my Super Z. There is a great deal of difference in riding a mower while cutting at 15 mph than one that cuts at a good speed of 12 mph. I would be willing to bet you could not stay in the seat of a Scag TT at 15 mph. You will hear people constantly saying on this site you cannot cut grass at 15 mph. I am hear to tell you without hesitation I can cut grass at 15 mph in the large areas I cut and do a very good job, the same as will the BB AOS model in the same type areas.

Boy that deck lift is high! The electric is nice on the BB, I had alittle bit of trouble stopping it, with practice it'd be no big deal.

Whar do you mean by "Boy that deck lift is high" statement?

Rons Rightway Lawncare
10-06-2008, 11:54 PM
Well I finally could not take it any longer so I drove to Hernando Equipment in Mississippi, about 17.5 miles from Memphis, did not realize BB dealer so close. Anyway I missed their two AOS 35hpcat diesels left in stock sold both last week to the same guy. The dealer had 1 AOS gasburner the 6000 AOS 27hp 90 degree v-twin kawasaki LC 60" deck, two lightnings with the 26hp kawasaki LC 52" & 60" decks.

First if your comparing the BB ZT series you will see at TSC stores, to the lighting or the AOS line up theirs a huge difference in who the mowers are geared towards.

The AOS 27 HP LC 90 degree v-twin Kawasaki 60" deck, was $8,995, and include a michigan suspension seat; which I must add is the most comfortable suspension seat I have sat in, I'm not sure about the competitions suspension seats features, but the BB's seat reclines from 5 degree's to 15 degree's something that I noticed right when I sat down very comfortable like a lazy boy.

My first impression is Bad Boy will dominate the market in do time; especially with the build quality vs cost vs engine line-up. Without calling names the Bad Boy AOS was hands down the best ZTR I have seen to date, and their prices leave enough cash in your bank account you would have to be flat out unaffected buy these economic times to over luck such quality for the price.

The AOS frame is massive, no wonder the BB engine line up is so broad right up to the 35hp cat diesel. No other mower frame I have looked at is so well built, and open to view as the BB AOS line. A+++

The instant lift electric deck height adjustment, is almost to simple, and I felt "lazy" for the first time when it came to changing deck height:laugh: I really did not see any problem getting adjusted to such a effortless way to adjust the deck height.

Deck design, at 1/4" solid steel, my 7-Iron did not seem so thick anymore. The deck hanging system has no lateral "play" when I tried to push it from side to side. The large turn buckles on each side of the deck are massive, and control the pitch of the deck front to back. With that said I cannot see how the BB cut quality could be nothing less than high quality; their seems to be nothing left to chance on the deck hanging hardware it's heavy duty.

The Demo was short, my first though was the center of gravity does not feel like your as high up, as SOOOO many folks have said, nothing is lower than a Walker, and going up to the AOS seat height I still felt fine, very acceptable center of gravity. These BB AOS 15mph midmounts are bread to run, it did not respond well in tight area's; however i was comparing it to the Walker precise steering, nothing beats a Walker on steering. Dealer said I could not engage the blades in the grass:cry: after some S-turns, and simulated mowing around the building; again I could not see myself doing highly landscaped accounts right then; however this mower will shine in wide area's IMO. Mastering highly landscaped area's will come with more seat time, but this mower will be mainly used for wide open area's.

EZ-Ride System
The "death wobble" on the front caster was NOT present, and the EZ-Ride system on the front caster did not get in the way of trimming close to buildings or around the obstacles that were present, like some have said???. I would need at least 4hrs of seat time to answer if the EZ-Ride truly works; however it did not take away from the ride or mowing/trimming abilities of the deck. EZ-Ride is the added bonus in the design IMO.

It's very hard to compare the BB AOS line up midmounts to the other major manufactures; because you get so much more for your dollar with these Bad Boy AOS mowers, that was, and still is my impression. I have never considered myself one to purchase "cheap" or "second tier" equipment, Yet BB has done a great job of manufacturing a simple, tough, economical, easy to maintain high quality, largest line up of quality engine manufactures from gas to a Cat diesel. So I guess I am "Steeping Down" in the business, no different than my Dodge Cummins to many:laugh:


That is a review? Sounds like you rode the thing around in the dealers parking lot, it didn't sound like you cut the first blade of grass with it. Go cut lawns for a few hours with it and then give me your review.

Granted, it is a nice machine, and it would be great for open areas and large properties. But I would like to see what your thoughts are once you use it for a few hours.....

dura to the max
10-06-2008, 11:59 PM
That is a review? Sounds like you rode the thing around in the dealers parking lot, it didn't sound like you cut the first blade of grass with it. Go cut lawns for a few hours with it and then give me your review.

Granted, it is a nice machine, and it would be great for open areas and large properties. But I would like to see what your thoughts are once you use it for a few hours.....

you say that like you have used one and werent too impressed...im just wondering if you used one and had mixed feeling or dislike for it. not trying to attack you at all, just wondering your experience w/ BB.

mag360
10-07-2008, 12:49 AM
you say that like you have used one and werent too impressed...im just wondering if you used one and had mixed feeling or dislike for it. not trying to attack you at all, just wondering your experience w/ BB.

http://www.lawnsite.com/showthread.php?t=240094

Here's what he thought.

nosparkplugs
10-07-2008, 01:32 AM
That is a review? Sounds like you rode the thing around in the dealers parking lot, it didn't sound like you cut the first blade of grass with it. Go cut lawns for a few hours with it and then give me your review.

Granted, it is a nice machine, and it would be great for open areas and large properties. But I would like to see what your thoughts are once you use it for a few hours.....

This midmount purchase will be for wide open area's, church's large commercial properties, very limited residential use. I have purchased three ZTR's with no "mowing demo". The only ZTR that did not work out for me was the Scag Tiger Cub, 20hp kohler 48" velcoity deck:laugh:, it was my first mulching mower; however I learned it was underpowered for thick bermuda grass.

I'm comfortable purchasing the Bad Boy without a mowing Demo, their are pictures posted of the BB on here the cut looks great. The Bad Boy Dealer I went to does not have a demo unit to loan out. Most of all the Dealers around here Scag included, are in no rush to let you demo a mower either. Some dealers just plain don't have demo units. The Walkers are the perfect example, their is no demoing those at any dealer here. I purchased one with only a drive around the dealer, turned out to be one of the best investments I made. Their is enough information out on all ZTR's to purchase one without a mowing demo, these machines are not cars that just can be drove around. Once you turn the blades on in the grass the machine is used, dealers have to purchase a Demo unit, the manufactures just don't give out free demo units like candy.

when I purchase one either the AOS diesel or AOS LC gas. I will post my "Mowing Demo", right now Scheffield is not offering any deals on financing, so I am going to cool my jets, going to wait for the BB dealer Owner to return for the BB factory, I have been dealing with a employee/saleman.

create_username
10-07-2008, 03:08 AM
I believe the AOS Gasser is understated with BB. I really believe its a really good buy. The 16cc pumps paired with the 27hp horizontal shaft LC kawasaki is nice. Definately the Lightning with the 26hp LC is our best seller, but someone looking at the TT, the 840 Deere for $12000, the Super Z, etc. It feels 2 times better than the lightning for the $1000 price difference. While we have sold over 40 of the lightning units and only 2 of the aos gassers, it is something we overlook too. My customers jump up to the Diesel from the lightning. I believe that to compare apples to apples from the TT, etc these guys need to put the aos up against it for a demo. What is funny when comparing is when you are comparing the price points. For instance when comparing Scag to BB just pick a mower from another brand, then go to the Bad Boy dealer and tell them the price you are looking at, then compare. I see most people looking at gas mowers spending $11000 or more. With BB you get a 28hp Cat diesel for $11295 or a 35hp 4 cylinder for $12195. So say you pick out a 31hp kawasaki TT for $11800 then you look at the 28hp Cat from BB for cheaper, you will be blown away.

When did scag start offering a 31hp kawasaki? Shop around a little more and you will find the 29Kawi and 31Kohler can be had for much less than 11800.00

cemeteryman
10-07-2008, 09:40 AM
I run an exmark 31/60 and this spring had a bad boy 32/60 brought out to demo. I think the BB is tough as nails and they would save me about $1500 below my exmark, but when I mowed with them side by side the cut of the exmark was clearly superior to the BB. I told the dealer and showed him and he said he would tell the techs at the factory, because they are still trying to make their mowers into better machines. He said he would bring me something else when they get the cut better.

puppypaws
10-07-2008, 09:49 AM
I run an exmark 31/60 and this spring had a bad boy 32/60 brought out to demo. I think the BB is tough as nails and they would save me about $1500 below my exmark, but when I mowed with them side by side the cut of the exmark was clearly superior to the BB. I told the dealer and showed him and he said he would tell the techs at the factory, because they are still trying to make their mowers into better machines. He said he would bring me something else when they get the cut better.

You will definitely find this to be the case at this point in time with Bad Boy mowers. They do not have the Exmark refined cut, but they are working on this problem, I feel assured.

Rons Rightway Lawncare
10-07-2008, 02:20 PM
If you have big areas to mow, open areas to mow, and you want a big mower - if your cutting lots that big you might as well get the 72 inch deck, why waste time with a 60 incher -

And you are considering a tank of a mower such as a Turf Tiger Scag or something along those lines....

Well the Badboy is a no brainer.

It is a stout mower. Nothing about it looked cheap, and it worked great.

Consider that when you step back and look at the big picture, all these mowers are just a bunch of steel tubes and plates welded up to create a mower. Most use the same engines, the same hydro system, comparible clutches and belts and blades and spindles etc....

Some mowers will have a better cut than another in specific conditions, but then the other machine may do better in other conditions.

All mowers will have quirks and all will have strong points that make it better in one or more areas over all others.

What works well for you may not work well for me. That is the truth and the bottom line....

In my case, I mow 99 percent residential and most are not more than 1/4-1/3rd acre lots. I need a mower that is manuverable and easy to handle. I have used many mowers over the years and have found that for me the best ZTR for my conditions is the small frame Scags such as the Tigercubs and Wildcats. My mowers have the same deck as the turf tiger, but the rest of the machine is smaller, lower, more compact, lighter and cheaper. The cut is the same and so far durability has not been a issue.

I would not have a Turf tiger in place of my Tigercub even if the Turf tiger was the same exact price. It just doesn't work as well for me.

Now if I mowed large lots, some of the 10 acre lots in the business district down off Westinghouse blvd in Charlotte.... or large common areas of apartment complexes and subvidisions, etc... I would probably rather have the larger more sturdy 72 inch cut Turf Tiger or BadBoy and would probably consider even going diesel too. Comparing the Scag to the Badboy, in the large deck, large frame and especially diesel powered version, if you were to cut mainly those large areas 90 percent of the time, well the Badboy would certainly be my choice. But I personally think you would be going overboard to buy either machine for small to normal size residential mowing.

As for pricing, My local scag dealer is very fair on his pricing. His machines are inline with other major brands. If the scag costs more it is only slightly more, and to be fair I think there is enough difference in build of a scag ( such as bearings on the pivot point on idler arms verses bushings on other brands, etc.... ) to make the price premium worth it.

I paid 6999$ for my latest Scag that was purchased about 2 months ago. It has the same 61 inch deck as the top of the line Turf Tiger and it is the same as the more expensive Wildcat. I even got the dealer to swap out the stock seat for a Scag Suspension seat ( which is the same exact seat the Badboy comes with ) My mower does have a "small" engine, a Vanguard 23 horsepower.... but it has performed just as good as the 27 horse Kohler my Wildcat had on it and parts are far less if I ever need to fix stuff on the engine.

As for resale value, the scag I believe will offer a slightly better price than a exmark or others, and especially a lessor known brand such as Badboy, but overall I would still buy the badboy if the savings were worth it.

J

nosparkplugs
10-07-2008, 07:20 PM
If you have big areas to mow, open areas to mow, and you want a big mower - if your cutting lots that big you might as well get the 72 inch deck, why waste time with a 60 incher -

And you are considering a tank of a mower such as a Turf Tiger Scag or something along those lines....

Well the Badboy is a no brainer.

It is a stout mower. Nothing about it looked cheap, and it worked great.

Consider that when you step back and look at the big picture, all these mowers are just a bunch of steel tubes and plates welded up to create a mower. Most use the same engines, the same hydro system, comparible clutches and belts and blades and spindles etc....

Some mowers will have a better cut than another in specific conditions, but then the other machine may do better in other conditions.

All mowers will have quirks and all will have strong points that make it better in one or more areas over all others.

What works well for you may not work well for me. That is the truth and the bottom line....

In my case, I mow 99 percent residential and most are not more than 1/4-1/3rd acre lots. I need a mower that is manuverable and easy to handle. I have used many mowers over the years and have found that for me the best ZTR for my conditions is the small frame Scags such as the Tigercubs and Wildcats. My mowers have the same deck as the turf tiger, but the rest of the machine is smaller, lower, more compact, lighter and cheaper. The cut is the same and so far durability has not been a issue.

I would not have a Turf tiger in place of my Tigercub even if the Turf tiger was the same exact price. It just doesn't work as well for me.

Now if I mowed large lots, some of the 10 acre lots in the business district down off Westinghouse blvd in Charlotte.... or large common areas of apartment complexes and subvidisions, etc... I would probably rather have the larger more sturdy 72 inch cut Turf Tiger or BadBoy and would probably consider even going diesel too. Comparing the Scag to the Badboy, in the large deck, large frame and especially diesel powered version, if you were to cut mainly those large areas 90 percent of the time, well the Badboy would certainly be my choice. But I personally think you would be going overboard to buy either machine for small to normal size residential mowing.

As for pricing, My local scag dealer is very fair on his pricing. His machines are inline with other major brands. If the scag costs more it is only slightly more, and to be fair I think there is enough difference in build of a scag ( such as bearings on the pivot point on idler arms verses bushings on other brands, etc.... ) to make the price premium worth it.

I paid 6999$ for my latest Scag that was purchased about 2 months ago. It has the same 61 inch deck as the top of the line Turf Tiger and it is the same as the more expensive Wildcat. I even got the dealer to swap out the stock seat for a Scag Suspension seat ( which is the same exact seat the Badboy comes with ) My mower does have a "small" engine, a Vanguard 23 horsepower.... but it has performed just as good as the 27 horse Kohler my Wildcat had on it and parts are far less if I ever need to fix stuff on the engine.

As for resale value, the scag I believe will offer a slightly better price than a exmark or others, and especially a lessor known brand such as Badboy, but overall I would still buy the badboy if the savings were worth it.

J

I agree
Weither the Scag TT or Wilcat, Bad Boy AOS diesel or AOS gas models. My impression has always been these are not the average residential ZTR. I rarely use my current 60" 7 Iron deck on residentials, so this purchase would be for the large commercial accounts

Deck Size: I am nervous about going to 72" simply because the larger decks scalp period, I have wide are spots were the 60" will scalp now, so a 72" would be a mess:cry:. I really should not care about scalping in a wide open field grass area; however I have ball fields that have burms on the sides, and even with a 60" you must attack them on the right angle to aviod scalping. I would spend more time getting my approach right with a 72" than a 60" to avoid scapling, yet I have wide area's that are flat so, I could use a 72". Their is no perfect deck size IMO the 60" is about perfect though.

Quality & pricing: Their is only ONE Scag dealer in Memphis= zero competition their is no price negotiating, no prom machines. I have been doing the math, Depending on model & engine the Scags/Hustler/grasshopper/Gravely here are anywhere between $1,500 to $3,000 more than the BB AOS diesel or AOS gas models, and the BB has more standard features, and LC diesel/gas engines or high HP AC engines for less money.

Lets be honest? this economy is tanking, were still sinking, while I might be able to afford the added expense of a Higher dollar machine, the average american consumer cannot. Even my most wealthy customers are complaining about MONEY to me now. At least with me, even my commercial customers ask questions about the nice equipment we operate. I'm a straight shooter, and while we all have to increase our rates to survive, I need to cut cost somewhere, and Bad Boy mowers came to the rescue just in time. I really would like to increase my rates again, and show up with a new BB this spring, and retain all my customers, for me no other ZTR line offers that flexibility like Bad Boy AOS diesel or AOS gas, for me the math added up:laugh:.



I would rather listen to all the negative posts about my rational for this purchase, and I will still be making a wise business investment with BB, and yes BB is a "young" company, to some the decks are not "refined" yet. If I had any doubt about cut quality I would just put the Walker down.

The Scag Dealers know about the BB; however the one company you write off will take over a large percentage of your sales. Sure their are great deals on Scags when you find them?? one Memphis dealer = zero deals. Hello, "not going on here" you got reports, these "well" established dealers that "throw" in a suspensions seat, or slash their retail price to make the "sale" doing it at their loss, How long can that last, hemorrhaging will occur in this market look around:laugh:, and frankly none here are willing to do that for free, loyalty does not earn deals on ZTR's anymore, the $$$$ does:waving:. This economy is about survival of the fittest, and comparing to years past their is nothing free anymore.

Rons Rightway Lawncare
10-08-2008, 12:02 AM
Saving 2-3 thousand dollars on a lawnmower is great, but I can't see how that would have any kind of significant impact on a companies well being or survival. If you are going to take out a loan that is 40-60 more per month.... If paying cash, it should be chump change for any company that is large enough to have a need for a 3rd or 4th large commercial mower, and especially for all those large accounts that have caused the demand for more equipment. So in a nutshell, it is great to save money, but not at the sacrifice of buying what you really want or need.

If saving money was the complete goal and you were dead set on a 60-61 inch deck, then why in the world would you even consider a 12-14 thousand dollar tank like the AOS Badboy Diesel or Turftiger Diesel? That is nearly twice what I paid for my mower which I have no doubts would cut the grass just as good at half the price.

As for dealers and good deals.... I mower was sold at the price Scag set for it, there was no discounting on part of the dealer. The only hookup I got was getting him to takeoff the new scag seat and replacing it with a new scag suspension seat. It cost him maybe 200$ to do this tops as he had the seat off my mower sold before it was even removed from my mower. There is no reason your local scag dealer would not honor scags promotional pricing. You just need to keep up to date with what promotions are active and be ready to buy when a good one comes up.

Of course I go back to the Badboy, and still agree it is a good mower. If it works for you, then go for it.

mag360
10-08-2008, 12:31 AM
Nosparkplugs,
If you are concerned about the larger 72inch deck scalping based on the scalping you may see on the non-discharge side of your f-680 I can tell you that our f-687 will scalp on that left side when it is simply not an issue on our midmount 61 inch machines. Having a foot pedal deck lift will allow you to minimize gouging at the edge of the deck. The ideal setup for a 72 incher would have the drive wheels out to the edges of the deck with a full length striping roller attached at the rear of the deck. I don't think there is a model that has both these features currently on the market unless dixie chopper has that style striping roller. Liberal use of the foot pedal can achieve the same finished product though.

nosparkplugs
10-08-2008, 12:52 AM
I agree on the AOS diesel or Scag TT thats alot of mower; however I have grown to the point of needing a larger frame ZTR diesel or higher hp gasoline model this purchase is a need not a want. This will make our third ZTR. This purchase will increase our speed to get done with our large area's. I like and could settle on the AOS 60" LC 90 degree v-twin 27hp Kawaski, advance cute option $9,765 no tax, cause dealer is out of state. Is that going to be enough mower & engine for the next three years of growth?. During the growing season, I'm not sure 27hp would be enough on some area's. Also I could use the AOS diesel on the Pipe line right of way maintenance contract, were a LC gas model would be ok, but might struggle in heavy growth. This is why I have slowed this down, and keep posting over the past couple of months, and talking with others in the business to get opinions I do respect everyone's point of view. Thank You for reading.

retrodog
10-14-2008, 12:22 AM
If you have big areas to mow, open areas to mow, and you want a big mower - if your cutting lots that big you might as well get the 72 inch deck, why waste time with a 60 incher -

And you are considering a tank of a mower such as a Turf Tiger Scag or something along those lines....

Well the Badboy is a no brainer.

It is a stout mower. Nothing about it looked cheap, and it worked great.

Consider that when you step back and look at the big picture, all these mowers are just a bunch of steel tubes and plates welded up to create a mower. Most use the same engines, the same hydro system, comparible clutches and belts and blades and spindles etc....

Some mowers will have a better cut than another in specific conditions, but then the other machine may do better in other conditions.

All mowers will have quirks and all will have strong points that make it better in one or more areas over all others.

What works well for you may not work well for me. That is the truth and the bottom line....

In my case, I mow 99 percent residential and most are not more than 1/4-1/3rd acre lots. I need a mower that is manuverable and easy to handle. I have used many mowers over the years and have found that for me the best ZTR for my conditions is the small frame Scags such as the Tigercubs and Wildcats. My mowers have the same deck as the turf tiger, but the rest of the machine is smaller, lower, more compact, lighter and cheaper. The cut is the same and so far durability has not been a issue.

I would not have a Turf tiger in place of my Tigercub even if the Turf tiger was the same exact price. It just doesn't work as well for me.

Now if I mowed large lots, some of the 10 acre lots in the business district down off Westinghouse blvd in Charlotte.... or large common areas of apartment complexes and subvidisions, etc... I would probably rather have the larger more sturdy 72 inch cut Turf Tiger or BadBoy and would probably consider even going diesel too. Comparing the Scag to the Badboy, in the large deck, large frame and especially diesel powered version, if you were to cut mainly those large areas 90 percent of the time, well the Badboy would certainly be my choice. But I personally think you would be going overboard to buy either machine for small to normal size residential mowing.

As for pricing, My local scag dealer is very fair on his pricing. His machines are inline with other major brands. If the scag costs more it is only slightly more, and to be fair I think there is enough difference in build of a scag ( such as bearings on the pivot point on idler arms verses bushings on other brands, etc.... ) to make the price premium worth it.

I paid 6999$ for my latest Scag that was purchased about 2 months ago. It has the same 61 inch deck as the top of the line Turf Tiger and it is the same as the more expensive Wildcat. I even got the dealer to swap out the stock seat for a Scag Suspension seat ( which is the same exact seat the Badboy comes with ) My mower does have a "small" engine, a Vanguard 23 horsepower.... but it has performed just as good as the 27 horse Kohler my Wildcat had on it and parts are far less if I ever need to fix stuff on the engine.

As for resale value, the scag I believe will offer a slightly better price than a exmark or others, and especially a lessor known brand such as Badboy, but overall I would still buy the badboy if the savings were worth it.

J

Just for the heck of it, you ought to go out and check out the BB Pup just to give your opinion. For $6495 retail they offer the 23hp Vanguard on the 60" deck, or for the $6995 that you spent you could get the 30hp Kohler Command with the 60" deck. That is full retail without any dealing yet...... Prolly be a good Saturday morning with nothing to do, just check out mowers. I will say the Kohler is more popular, so that might be what the dealer has in stock.

retrodog
10-14-2008, 12:44 AM
I agree on the AOS diesel or Scag TT thats alot of mower; however I have grown to the point of needing a larger frame ZTR diesel or higher hp gasoline model this purchase is a need not a want. This will make our third ZTR. This purchase will increase our speed to get done with our large area's. I like and could settle on the AOS 60" LC 90 degree v-twin 27hp Kawaski, advance cute option $9,765 no tax, cause dealer is out of state. Is that going to be enough mower & engine for the next three years of growth?. During the growing season, I'm not sure 27hp would be enough on some area's. Also I could use the AOS diesel on the Pipe line right of way maintenance contract, were a LC gas model would be ok, but might struggle in heavy growth. This is why I have slowed this down, and keep posting over the past couple of months, and talking with others in the business to get opinions I do respect everyone's point of view. Thank You for reading.

Hey man, the 27hp LC Kawasaki 60" is $8795 retail, and the 35hp Vanguard 60" is $8995 retail. ACS System is $199, that might help you lean towards the Gasser to save you some cash. The LC is great on fuel consumption, and the 35hp Vanguard is a beast, but drinks a little more than you might be used to. The diesel are rated to last along longer, but in reality how many commercial guys keep machines over 5 years old. You have to weigh in if the extra $2500 to $3400 is worth having the big daddy. I will give you this. Right now so far my 35hp cat has no match to anything I have ever been on for the price. I have jokingly put it up title for title against many other brands over the past few months just to prove I am not blowing smoke. The only mower I was sweating was the Excaliber (even though its more $) because of everything I had heard. I did smoke the one I compared to, but I don't think his blades were sharp. He loved how mine was more comfortable, and I loved how much easier his hydro arms were to use. Right now as far as I know, there is not a $12000 retail mower that even comes close to the 35hp Bad Boy, and that is not just my opinion, that is fact. I have mowed on the big yanmar Deere, the 31hp kubota, 722d hopper, and the Ferris, while all mowers listed were more money than the BB, I would unbiasly rather have the BB. As far as resale......it has a Cat diesel for gosh sakes!! How much value will you lose after saving so much up front. I see $18000 Ferris mowers 2 years old that can't bring close to $10000, thats around 50% over 2 years, if a dumb butt would take a 50% loss on his Bad Boy, that means that it would only bring a little over $6000!! You and I know for a fact that a 2 year old 35hp Cat diesel mower would bring more than that even if it was the Yard Shark brand mower......lol.

puppypaws
10-14-2008, 01:02 PM
Hey man, the 27hp LC Kawasaki 60" is $8795 retail, and the 35hp Vanguard 60" is $8995 retail. ACS System is $199, that might help you lean towards the Gasser to save you some cash. The LC is great on fuel consumption, and the 35hp Vanguard is a beast, but drinks a little more than you might be used to. The diesel are rated to last along longer, but in reality how many commercial guys keep machines over 5 years old. You have to weigh in if the extra $2500 to $3400 is worth having the big daddy. I will give you this. Right now so far my 35hp cat has no match to anything I have ever been on for the price. I have jokingly put it up title for title against many other brands over the past few months just to prove I am not blowing smoke. The only mower I was sweating was the Excaliber (even though its more $) because of everything I had heard. I did smoke the one I compared to, but I don't think his blades were sharp. He loved how mine was more comfortable, and I loved how much easier his hydro arms were to use. Right now as far as I know, there is not a $12000 retail mower that even comes close to the 35hp Bad Boy, and that is not just my opinion, that is fact. I have mowed on the big yanmar Deere, the 31hp kubota, 722d hopper, and the Ferris, while all mowers listed were more money than the BB, I would unbiasly rather have the BB. As far as resale......it has a Cat diesel for gosh sakes!! How much value will you lose after saving so much up front. I see $18000 Ferris mowers 2 years old that can't bring close to $10000, thats around 50% over 2 years, if a dumb butt would take a 50% loss on his Bad Boy, that means that it would only bring a little over $6000!! You and I know for a fact that a 2 year old 35hp Cat diesel mower would bring more than that even if it was the Yard Shark brand mower......lol.

My dealer is bringing the AOS diesel he is running on his personal property to my farm Thursday, so I can get a comparison between the AOS diesel and the Lightning 32 Vanguard; I ran for about 30 hrs.

The 35 Vanguard doesn't realize it is suppose to be working in anything you want to mow or bush hog. It is really unbelievable how powerful the big blocks are, the governor just doesn't get any use.

I know it would use more gas but when nothing ever slows it down or pulls the rpm's back you are much more productive and could actually save fuel in the long run, especially running the faster speed.

nosparkplugs
10-14-2008, 06:09 PM
The Kubota ZD331 was always on my "short list", and it was time to "pull" the trigger on this diesel purchase. While the Bad Boy AOS diesel 35hp Cat 72" deck, is a impressive machine it came out more expensive. So lets stop calling them "cheap" now:laugh:

Went with the Kubota ZD331 31hp 3 cylinder Kubota Diesel, 72" 7-guage 6.5" deep baffle, commercial pro deck, and optional mulch kit. The Kubota was the cheapest price overall, $13,455, he's refaxing the addition of the mulch kit for the 72"deck were talking around $350. Delivery of Mower will be next week(monday).

I'm doing a business lease, with $1.00 buyout, at end of lease, this will be an "off balance sheet purchase". This purchase will also raise my Dunn & Bradstreet Score.

nosparkplugs
10-14-2008, 08:42 PM
The Kubota ZD331 was always on my "short list", and it was time to "pull" the trigger on this diesel purchase. While the Bad Boy AOS diesel 35hp Cat 72" deck, is a impressive machine it came out more expensive. So lets stop calling them "cheap" now:laugh:

Went with the Kubota ZD331 31hp 3 cylinder Kubota Diesel, 72" 7-guage 6.5" deep baffle, commercial pro deck, and optional mulch kit. The Kubota was the cheapest price overall, $13,455, he's refaxing the addition of the mulch kit for the 72"deck were talking around $350. Delivery of Mower will be next week(monday).

I'm doing a business lease, with $1.00 buyout, at end of lease, this will be an "off balance sheet purchase". This purchase will also raise my Dunn & Bradstreet Score.

The Bad Boy dealer has since stepped up to the "plate", and came down on price. I'm glad that we were able to hammer a deal out on the AOS 35hp Cat diesel 72" deck.

I was not expecting the BB dealer to match the Kubota ZD331 price. Sorry about the "premature" ejaupost":laugh:

Apples
10-14-2008, 09:12 PM
Are you sure?

puppypaws
10-14-2008, 10:09 PM
Hey man, the 27hp LC Kawasaki 60" is $8795 retail, and the 35hp Vanguard 60" is $8995 retail. ACS System is $199, that might help you lean towards the Gasser to save you some cash. The LC is great on fuel consumption, and the 35hp Vanguard is a beast, but drinks a little more than you might be used to. The diesel are rated to last along longer, but in reality how many commercial guys keep machines over 5 years old. You have to weigh in if the extra $2500 to $3400 is worth having the big daddy. I will give you this. Right now so far my 35hp cat has no match to anything I have ever been on for the price. I have jokingly put it up title for title against many other brands over the past few months just to prove I am not blowing smoke. The only mower I was sweating was the Excaliber (even though its more $) because of everything I had heard. I did smoke the one I compared to, but I don't think his blades were sharp. He loved how mine was more comfortable, and I loved how much easier his hydro arms were to use. Right now as far as I know, there is not a $12000 retail mower that even comes close to the 35hp Bad Boy, and that is not just my opinion, that is fact. I have mowed on the big yanmar Deere, the 31hp kubota, 722d hopper, and the Ferris, while all mowers listed were more money than the BB, I would unbiasly rather have the BB. As far as resale......it has a Cat diesel for gosh sakes!! How much value will you lose after saving so much up front. I see $18000 Ferris mowers 2 years old that can't bring close to $10000, thats around 50% over 2 years, if a dumb butt would take a 50% loss on his Bad Boy, that means that it would only bring a little over $6000!! You and I know for a fact that a 2 year old 35hp Cat diesel mower would bring more than that even if it was the Yard Shark brand mower......lol.

Tell me the difference you can tell in the 28 & 35 Cat, my dealer has been running a 28 on his personal property so he would know a little more about the mower. He told me today he actually could not see a need for more hp than he had seen with the 28 Cat, that nothing fazed it. I will find out Thursday when he brings it to me. I believe you could put the 35 Cat in pulling competition, it would tear up mower components before it would choke down. I could see it smoking a belt in a heartbeat.

mag360
10-15-2008, 12:58 AM
Tell me the difference you can tell in the 28 & 35 Cat, my dealer has been running a 28 on his personal property so he would know a little more about the mower. He told me today he actually could not see a need for more hp than he had seen with the 28 Cat, that nothing fazed it. I will find out Thursday when he brings it to me. I believe you could put the 35 Cat in pulling competition, it would tear up mower components before it would choke down. I could see it smoking a belt in a heartbeat.

We ran a ferris with the 28cat and 61inch deck for a week or so and I found it to be surprisingly underpowered. You could easily pull the rpm down with the hydros. Grass didn't seem to phase it much but hills would really rough it up. This was only a 12mph machine to the best of my knowledge.

puppypaws
10-15-2008, 01:00 AM
We ran a ferris with the 28cat and 61inch deck for a week or so and I found it to be surprisingly underpowered. You could easily pull the rpm down with the hydros. Grass didn't seem to phase it much but hills would really rough it up. This was only a 12mph machine to the best of my knowledge.

I am glad to hear your opinion, I will definitely know Thursday if the Bad Boy setup makes any difference in the way it uses power.

Ramairfreak98ss
10-15-2008, 01:32 AM
yeah Bad boy stuff looked nice when i saw it last year.

Death wobble haha, is this more well known than what ive seen out there? I know a couple BIG management companies send out ther boys on Dixies and stuff and go zoomin down the back development roads in NJ with their front caster wheels flippin out like you just stole the twinky from the fat man next door. My guys start laughin like somethings seriously wrong over there. I have to say, asside from having a flat up front once, ive never had a caster do anything of the nature, so im just not enlightened much about this problem?

puppypaws
10-15-2008, 08:00 AM
yeah Bad boy stuff looked nice when i saw it last year.

Death wobble haha, is this more well known than what ive seen out there? I know a couple BIG management companies send out ther boys on Dixies and stuff and go zoomin down the back development roads in NJ with their front caster wheels flippin out like you just stole the twinky from the fat man next door. My guys start laughin like somethings seriously wrong over there. I have to say, asside from having a flat up front once, ive never had a caster do anything of the nature, so im just not enlightened much about this problem?

I run 15 mph everywhere possible on a Hustler Super Z and the front wheels stay as straight as a string. I had this happening on a new mower and immediately dropped the air pressure in the front tires to 8 lbs. This compresses the front tires (makes it ride better also) and puts more rubber on the ground.

The Hustler also has a nylon washer you tighten the bolt on top of the caster spindle against to put more tension so the caster wheels don't spin as easily. Basically, it is like anything else, you use common sense to resolve a minor problem.