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P.Services
10-08-2008, 09:23 PM
im looking to add another truck to my company, the truck i really want is a f-650 extended cab hook lift. now this truck runs around $45,000. im also looking at this from a different perspective and thinking about buy multiple older dump trucks. they are 1993 chevy kodiaks with 3126's and Allison auto's all have around 45k miles.they are former municipality trucks with extensive service records. they run about $12k a piece

the hook truck is a newer truck that will run better and need fewer repairs but its only one truck to make money as opposed to 3 or 4 kodiaks that can be running around making money. this would especially come into play in the winter when i can have 4 trucks plowing as opposed to just one.

they would be used for everything from hauling mulch to pulling trailers to being off road haul trucks on my dirt moving projects.


any thoughts or input is greatly appreciated.

AintNoFun
10-08-2008, 09:29 PM
idk thats a tough call.. 4 more trucks to insure, register, change oil, tires, maintenance.. i would think one great truck would be a wiser decision.. although if snow plowing is your big thing it might be worth the gamble for the 4 trucks..

Junior M
10-08-2008, 09:34 PM
Thats a great idea picasso, but do you have the work to keep four trucks or one truck busy? Also do you have the money to pay 4 guys to keep those four trucks running?

When are you thinking of purchasing these trucks or truck?

P.Services
10-08-2008, 09:34 PM
snow plowing isnt my big thing but it will grow. i can also have 4 landscape jobs going and being suplied as oposed to one.

P.Services
10-08-2008, 09:35 PM
if i dont have the work then the trucks will sit with no drivers in them, i dont see that happening though.

Gravel Rat
10-08-2008, 09:37 PM
How many employees do you want ?

Trucks can be expensive you may get 2 single axle dumps for 12 grand each but you have 6 tires that are expensive,brakes need replacing etc. I'am not a fan of automatics in medium duty trucks.

A hooklift truck can do it all you can have a few boxes so if you need to go get mulch fill the box up drop it go get a load of gravel in another box.

I don't care how well muni trucks are maintained they are all driven hard.

If you want a hooklift on a single axle you want a heaviest gvw single you can get. A F-650 will have a pretty limited payload.

P.Services
10-08-2008, 09:42 PM
i like auto's in all trucks because its hard to find guys that even know what a clutch is let alone know how to and how not to use it.

thats the thing with the hook, i can have one driver and have the truck just running around all day droping this off and picking that up and what not. hey could have a box droped with mulch on site before the guys show up and then they can just go strait to the job site, clean up after pack the box up and go home. later in the evening it can be picked up.

Gravel Rat
10-08-2008, 10:00 PM
No offence but if you can't find a driver that can drive a medium duty with a standard then they shouldn't be driving a medium duty. Even if the medium duty only has a 26,000lb gvw you can cause damage to the truck. Get offroad with a load and start spinning wheels or get stuck you still can break axle shafts or blow u joints with a automatic.

Dirt Digger2
10-08-2008, 10:00 PM
more trucks = more employees, more taxes, more money, more repair, more bills, more headaches, more tires, more inspections, more fuel, more, more, more.....

you'll have a hard time keeping under CDL trucks busy anyway...

what i personally think you need to do is get your CDL and buy a tandem with a tag trailer and ditch your underpowered Kodiak all together

AmsoilPower
10-08-2008, 10:02 PM
take this as a business question, im trying to grow my company rapidly and expand.


im looking to add another truck to my company, the truck i really want is a f-650 extended cab hook lift. now this truck runs around $45,000. im also looking at this from a different perspective and thinking about buy multiple older dump trucks. they are 1993 chevy kodiaks with 3126's and Allison auto's all have around 45k miles.they are former municipality trucks with extensive service records. they run about $12k a piece

the hook truck is a newer truck that will run better and need fewer repairs but its only one truck to make money as opposed to 3 or 4 kodiaks that can be running around making money. this would especially come into play in the winter when i can have 4 trucks plowing as opposed to just one.

they would be used for everything from hauling mulch to pulling trailers to being off road haul trucks on my dirt moving projects.


any thoughts or input is greatly appreciated.


Now I know you probably won't take my opinion to heart since I am just the "resident oil !@#$%" but here it is. To me, this is a no brainer. Go w/ the 4 trucks for the price of 1!!!! If they only have around 45K miles on them and have been services regularly what is the hold up? If for example 1 truck can make $5000 during one snow, won't 4 trucks bring $20,000? Same with dirt, mowing, etc. Just my thoughts :waving:


Oh yeah, you could switch them over to Amsoil also so they start easier for you at 3:00 am!!!!! Sorry.........I couldn't resist:rolleyes::drinkup:

P.Services
10-08-2008, 10:15 PM
more trucks = more employees, more taxes, more money, more repair, more bills, more headaches, more tires, more inspections, more fuel, more, more, more.....



more more more money!! brickman and trugreen and all the big guys dont run one truck.

DBL
10-08-2008, 10:19 PM
forget about the year and truck descriptions...do you need 4 trucks now or 1 or 2 or whatever figure out that number then see what truck or trucks fit those needs

doubleedge
10-08-2008, 10:22 PM
I think it makes more sense to buy more trucks. You will have more maintenance, but if one of them break down, you will have another to take it's place. With one expensive one, it may require less maintenance, but you could be stuck without a truck for a while if something major breaks. Also, you have more room for expansion with more trucks. You always could just leave them at your shop (if you have one) when only one is needed.

ksss
10-08-2008, 10:28 PM
more trucks = more employees, more taxes, more money, more repair, more bills, more headaches, more tires, more inspections, more fuel, more, more, more.....

you'll have a hard time keeping under CDL trucks busy anyway...

what i personally think you need to do is get your CDL and buy a tandem with a tag trailer and ditch your underpowered Kodiak all together


What he said.

Gravel Rat
10-08-2008, 10:30 PM
Having 4 medium dutys gets expensive. I don't know how you guys can keep a single axle dump busy you couldn't even get a days worth of work out of one here. If its not a tandem forget it even the landscape supply delivers 90% of its loads with a tandem.

Man I would hate to be the one that has to replace a blown allison transmission or deal with the 3126 singer sewing machine engine.

One of you drivers got stuck and spun the wheels with a load and blew a axle shaft. Get a call a driver drove with a rock stuck bettween the duals and blew two tires there goes 500 bucks.

Lots of fun dealing with trucks :laugh:

bobcat_ron
10-08-2008, 10:44 PM
1 truck, only 1 set of problems, but 4 trucks???? You might as well get some extra wives then.

stuvecorp
10-08-2008, 11:05 PM
What type of business do you want? What is your goals long term for the business?

P.Services
10-08-2008, 11:09 PM
What type of business do you want? What is your goals long term for the business?

wow that will take a long time to type out. im not looking to get brickman big but i would like to become a well know player in the michigan area. in short some day i would hope to have at least a hundred trucks on the road so this would be a start.

stuvecorp
10-08-2008, 11:18 PM
wow that will take a long time to type out. im not looking to get brickman big but i would like to become a well know player in the michigan area. in short some day i would hope to have at least a hundred trucks on the road so this would be a start.

Then give'r then. For me I am happy to stay a dog and pony show without the pony.

Gravel Rat
10-08-2008, 11:42 PM
I don't think I would want to have that many trucks just too much to manage. There is more to life than working you can have 2-3 guys easy to handle make a decent living.

Scag48
10-09-2008, 12:59 AM
Alright man, I'll play some devil's advocate here. It's good you want to grow the business and become a player, that's awesome. But buy the trucks and equipment you need as you grow. Right now, as it stands, can you keep those 4 trucks busy every day? How about 3 days out of the week? If they can't be put to work immediately, everyday, you don't need them quite yet. That's not to say you won't need 4 trucks within a year or two. But right now, 4 trucks would be tying up a lot of capital that would be better spent on 1 newer, better equipped truck for your needs. When the need arises for more trucks, everything will fall into place.

I'm not doubting you, I think you could make things work either way. However, the added cost of insuring, maintaining, and keeping those trucks on the road all the time with a good driver in the seat might be a challenge. You'd be going from 1 truck up to 5. If anything, I think adding 2 trucks right now wouldn't be a bad plan, but making a huge jump might be a little adventurous.

Swampy
10-09-2008, 01:19 AM
I'd agree I wouldn't jump up to 4 trucks right away. I'd personally just get two if I was in your shoes because I like more bang for the buck. Even if you just use both for plowing and the next season you only have work for one. You can still just park it and drop the insurance/licensing for the quarters that you don't need it. Plus I've seen tons of material delivery companies run single axle medium duty trucks. Why put only 10yds of mulch in a 20yd truck to do deliveries when the order is only 10yds?

Gravel Rat
10-09-2008, 01:40 AM
It is just as cheap to operate a tandem axle dump over a single axle. A single axle dump with a 26,000lb gvw can't carry anything. You go deliver 10 yards of mulch leave the customers place go head to the pit or supply yard go pick up 12 yards of gravel for a job.

Trying to get trucks under CDL isn't worth it why own a truck if you can't haul a decent load on it.

Swampy
10-09-2008, 03:16 AM
It is just as cheap to operate a tandem axle dump over a single axle. A single axle dump with a 26,000lb gvw can't carry anything. You go deliver 10 yards of mulch leave the customers place go head to the pit or supply yard go pick up 12 yards of gravel for a job.

Trying to get trucks under CDL isn't worth it why own a truck if you can't haul a decent load on it.

True but if you want to go that route one could be delivering and then the other picking up your material at the same time. Getting under the CDL limit has its advantage to keep cost down. The bigger the truck means requiring a CDL in turn means you have to pay a driver more, more a ton more insurance, which means costumer costs go up as well.

Plus like he said that he's going to jump into plowing. A Tandem axle isn't the greatest for plowing, it can move a ton of snow but put it in a complex parking lot go luck turning that beast around. But leave it up to him to figure that out cause I don't know Michigan snow falls, I just hear they suck sometimes.

Gravel Rat
10-09-2008, 03:50 AM
If you guys have to cut costs buy paying a driver less money then you need to rethink business. A truck driver here makes minimum 20 dollars per hour and must beable to drive a tandem. No contractor hires a non cdl driver because contractors here don't run single axle trucks. Your guys CDL rule in the USA is idiotic what is the frigging difference bettween a 26,000lb gvw truck and a 35,000lb gvw truck non except for the truck weighs more.

Around here if you pay a driver less than 20 dollars per hour then your hiring a person from the bottom of the barrel.

I'am a truck driver I won't work for less than 20 dollars per hour it doesn't matter if its a 1 ton or a tandem.

A tandem doesn't plow snow very well but how much money do you really make from plowing ?

You want good employees pay them a decent wage if you want unskilled labour pay them wefare wages.

Dirt Digger2
10-09-2008, 07:30 AM
"The person who gets the farthest is generally the one who is willing to do and dare. The sure-thing boat never gets far from shore."
–Dale Carnegie

I think its great that you are wanting to expand your business and take the risk. I am a firm believer in risk to get ahead and when asked what my strengths are it is the fact that I am not afraid to take a sensible risk. However I think you need to do a little more research on this then just asking us. You need to figure out the demand for a truck like that in your area, can you keep it busy and can you keep the drivers busy when there is no work? This would be a big step in your business. Those 4 trucks are not just costing $45,000….they are costing much more then that and you need to be able to justify the outgoing monies by having enough incoming to make the difference.

Personally I think that maybe you should just buy 1 of the trucks, buy 1 trailer, and maybe 1 used machine. You would essentially be adding one more crew. Machines make you money, trucks don’t. Adding more trucks to your fleet, unless you are starting a trucking company, is not the way to make a ton of money. Guys that own “real” trucks are struggling right now and having very difficult times keeping them busy, much less a smaller less demanded truck.

Good luck with the decision, but just because you might have more trucks out there with your name on the side doesn’t mean you are a big strong company.

mag360
10-09-2008, 12:28 PM
Might be smarter to go with 2 of the older ones. There is too much of a span between 1 truck or 4 (ie. you're talking crazy:laugh:). If you had 4 trucks running for landscape related work (plus your current kodiak) you'd need more machines. Why not buy 2 of the four (or even 1 and keep your gasser as a backup) and save the $20,000+ for other expenses.

jefftb
10-09-2008, 05:16 PM
Its times like these when you need to think about a simple statement of cash flows for this and use them in a good decision making process.

Sit down and determine what the costs are for buying truck(s), new and used, along with all operating costs, and then look at what the money benefits there are to the scenarios you've got in your head. Don't just think about it....write it down. We know you've got scenarios in your head-these scenarios are both short term and long term.

The scenarios are what you will do for sure with the truck(s) and what you think the truck(s) can do for you. Place values on the scenarios and probabilities of each scenarios success.

Then compare to the costs of ownership and operation for these and see what the difference is. This will allow you to quantify the difference and make a better decision. You may find that the cost outweighs your original benefit for one truck or even four.

Finally, think about what the investment of your money capital means to your flexibility to respond to other market needs that may develop tomorrow or in April.

I've seen too many times where an individual just thinks they need an additional truck or machine or employee and find out six months later that its underused and provides little value to the bottom line.

Stretching out and taking a risk is generally the only way to grow-but that does not mean you cannot at least think a little before you leap.

oakhillslandscaping
10-09-2008, 06:02 PM
im going through the same ordeal but im going to go with a SNG setup on a either a peterbilt or a frieghtliner the only reason im going with this is because though it may cost more i feel it to be a long term investment that i wont have to replace down the road plus having the versatility to drop the body to me is a no brainer because of what my company is geared towards yours may be different

P.Services
10-09-2008, 09:04 PM
oakhills how about this truck for you.

http://www.commercialtrucktrader.com/find/listing/2005-PETERBILT-335-92977561

oakhillslandscaping
10-09-2008, 10:18 PM
thats a beautiful truck but the two trucks im looking at are used one is a local one and the other is in my state just further south both for 10k both with 257" wb so that i can install the same box behind the cab that etw and tthomas have on there sng systems but im sure my costs will be close to that price thanks though

Dirt Digger2
10-10-2008, 01:20 AM
Petes cost big payuppayup

Gravel Rat
10-10-2008, 03:13 AM
Petes also last longer than a Freightliner that falls apart while you drive down the road and the squeeks and rattles drive you insane. Or you can buy a manure spreader aka Cornbiner aka International.

I wouldn't ever buy a F-650 or F-750 its not a truck its a pickup with 22 inch wheels.

Superior L & L
10-10-2008, 07:17 AM
There is a lot of out of works trucks in mid michigan right now !! I dont think its possible to get work for four new trucks. Even if there is after buying four trucks it would probably cost you $8000 to get them plated and insurance on them!
Id buy one or two of them if you like the idea of old county trucks.

MY REAL TWO CENTS !!!

I assume you will get a loan on them. In 3-4 years you will pay them off and they will be junk or at least a pain in the rear, always breaking, and lost production. Finding guys to run them that care will also be tough. If your looking long term buy one newer(as new as you can afford) truck. In four years you will have paided the loan off and you will still have a nice looking truck that will still have a ton of life in it and it will be a nice asset to your company!
There is nothing worse than having a loan on a truck that keeps breaking down and is a piece of junk!

Tony Clifton
10-16-2008, 04:31 PM
I would strongly discourage you from buying 4 trucks at once. I would buy 1, maybe 2 of the used ones. I like your goals and I share similar ones myself. However, sometimes trying to grow to fast will kill you, destroy your credit if not bankrupt you. How many employees do you currently have? Do you have a solid business plan in place? How about staffing plans, job descriptions, operating systems, etc. Take it from me, things used to be pretty easy when I had 3-4 trucks. I thought growing up to be one of the big boys was going to be a piece of cake. Then I realized I wasn't running the smoothly oiled machine I thought I was. There is a lot of planning and implementing to get to that point. I run 10 trucks now and plan to keep growing but I do wish I had done more planning in the early stages.

I almost forgot to add that with the economy the way it is, be very careful of how you spend your money. I am not saying don't grow or don't spend, but be very careful and very conservative. We had a 2 month backlog from Jan/Feb to July and then it pretty much dried up for a month or 2. Everyone was dead, I had vendors calling, dropping prices, doing whatever they could to try to get some business. Even though it may not be like that in your neck of the woods you really need to be prepared.

YellowDogSVC
10-16-2008, 05:35 PM
I would strongly discourage you from buying 4 trucks at once. I would buy 1, maybe 2 of the used ones. I like your goals and I share similar ones myself. However, sometimes trying to grow to fast will kill you, destroy your credit if not bankrupt you. How many employees do you currently have? Do you have a solid business plan in place? How about staffing plans, job descriptions, operating systems, etc. Take it from me, things used to be pretty easy when I had 3-4 trucks. I thought growing up to be one of the big boys was going to be a piece of cake. Then I realized I wasn't running the smoothly oiled machine I thought I was. There is a lot of planning and implementing to get to that point. I run 10 trucks now and plan to keep growing but I do wish I had done more planning in the early stages.

I almost forgot to add that with the economy the way it is, be very careful of how you spend your money. I am not saying don't grow or don't spend, but be very careful and very conservative. We had a 2 month backlog from Jan/Feb to July and then it pretty much dried up for a month or 2. Everyone was dead, I had vendors calling, dropping prices, doing whatever they could to try to get some business. Even though it may not be like that in your neck of the woods you really need to be prepared.

good advice. Wish I heard that 10 years ago and again about 4 weeks ago before I bought another Ford I couldn't afford!!

bearmtnmartin
10-16-2008, 07:47 PM
buy one older truck and add to the fleet as you pay them off, or get the hooklift. I have the best of both worlds. One old hooklift! But its paid for and very versatile. I don't think I would go back to a regular dump truck again. I drop my box on the ground all the time. And lots of trucks equals lots of headaches. As my father in law likes to say, " trucks make smart people stupid"

Swampy
10-16-2008, 11:31 PM
buy one older truck and add to the fleet as you pay them off, or get the hooklift. I have the best of both worlds. One old hooklift! But its paid for and very versatile. I don't think I would go back to a regular dump truck again. I drop my box on the ground all the time. And lots of trucks equals lots of headaches. As my father in law likes to say, " trucks make smart people stupid"

or stupid people rich.

bearmtnmartin
10-17-2008, 12:17 AM
people don't get rich with dump trucks. They may get rich owning a business that utilises dump trucks to make the business work, but farming out a bunch of gravel trucks by the hour gets you ulcers and overdrafts

M RASCOE&SONS
10-17-2008, 10:49 PM
your not going to make money with 4 six wheelers and definately not used six wheelers at that,they are going to be money pits.i could see maybe one hooklift with a stellar shuttle hoist and maybe 5 to 10 containers (12 to 15 yd) and you could hire yourself out to small contractors and your steady clients to start .goodluck with your venture

stuvecorp
10-18-2008, 11:04 AM
buy one older truck and add to the fleet as you pay them off, or get the hooklift. I have the best of both worlds. One old hooklift! But its paid for and very versatile. I don't think I would go back to a regular dump truck again. I drop my box on the ground all the time. And lots of trucks equals lots of headaches. As my father in law likes to say, " trucks make smart people stupid"

I never got how much guys that have alot of trucks complain they going broke and the trucks are killing them yet the next month they go and buy new truck? It must be an odd phenomenon.

Gravel Rat
10-18-2008, 01:28 PM
For what Piccasso is doing a hooklift or a rolloff truck is better because one truck can do more jobs. If you had a heavy enough truck you could have a rolloff box trailer that carries another bin that could carry brush or mulch etc.

Kriz2ooo
03-12-2009, 07:56 AM
have you ever driven a kodiak? they are freggin huge, how would you ever plow with one?

Swampy
03-12-2009, 02:04 PM
have you ever driven a kodiak? they are freggin huge, how would you ever plow with one?

Back up as little as possible

Kriz2ooo
03-12-2009, 06:25 PM
yeah I guess it would take some figuring out to establish a pattern when plowing to minimize backing up. i drive one at work (J.P. Carroll Construction) and they are quite big. Would you have a flat bed or what. That would make it so much easier so you're not backing into a light pole or something

Treemow
03-12-2009, 10:13 PM
What about buying all 5 of them?

P.Services
03-13-2009, 01:35 AM
have you ever driven a kodiak? they are freggin huge, how would you ever plow with one?

holy shat this is a very old thread guys!!

yes i have a kodiak and plow with it. its not that bad.

BigDigger
03-13-2009, 12:44 PM
wow....just kinda sprang into life again eh?


hehehehe

So what did you do? I didn't read the whole thread

P.Services
03-13-2009, 01:28 PM
i never bought any of them. i came up with a whole new plan for trucks this spring.

kreft
03-13-2009, 01:56 PM
It changes every year.... lols

Junior M
03-13-2009, 01:58 PM
It changes every year.... lols
There for a while it was about everyday.. :dizzy: :laugh:

crab
03-13-2009, 11:44 PM
jr you are really getting head in the water these days,what you need is some ......................!:drinkup: