No mas H2B?

[openbook]

It's what I heard at work today. Anyone know any more about it? I guess I don't really care since I feel it kind of takes jobs away from the local market.
My company would be so royally screwed, all our workers are h2b and they are a nation wide company.
If that happens I would feel bad for some of the guy's we have. Despite the language barrier I have met some bright hardworking young men.

I'm new on this site so I want to introduce myself. Dave from Minneapolis, 4 years in the green industry and want to go into business for myself. Too tired of working for other people, not getting anywhere. God I could rant!

[big acres]

I'd be interested in hearing more... sure there are some great people who are here on h2b, but imo it is bad for the industry and is keeping pricing at the same level it was ten years ago.

Though I don't own a company, there are a few around who have acheived a fairly recognizable presence without h2b. They could not do this unless they treated their guys well and retained their experience in order to do more with fewer guys and compete against h2b labor. And this is being done without working weekends.

Anyhow, from past experience in a different industry, now is a tough time to enter the market unless you are leading with price, and when you lead with price... you die by price. There are plenty of companies holding firm on solid pricing who are losing a few accounts to those who fear starvation, or who are entering and unfamiliar with their true costs -hope you ain't one! The established companies will get through, but the guys whose only claim to fame is price often fade. Welcome to LS, and good luck whatever you do.

[nosparkplugs]

It's what I heard at work today. Anyone know any more about it? I guess I don't really care since I feel it kind of takes jobs away from the local market.
My company would be so royally screwed, all our workers are h2b and they are a nation wide company.
If that happens I would feel bad for some of the guy's we have. Despite the language barrier I have met some bright hardworking young men.

I'm new on this site so I want to introduce myself. Dave from Minneapolis, 4 years in the green industry and want to go into business for myself. Too tired of working for other people, not getting anywhere. God I could rant!

Sounds like you have the experience; however you already know the hills that must be climbed, in starting a business. The credit market is super tight right now, and disposable income is down. Might be better to just start, sabotaging your current company, start getting those H2B workers fired, should clear about 30 of them from one rental house in a medium income level neighborhood that is in foreclosure too :laugh:

That sounds unprofessional, but it's how I feel sometimes :confused:

[big acres]

Sounds like you have the experience; however you already know the hills that must be climbed, in starting a business. The credit market is super tight right now, and disposable income is down. Might be better to just start, sabotaging your current company, start getting those H2B workers fired, should clear about 30 of them from one rental house in a medium income level neighborhood that is in foreclosure too :laugh:

That sounds unprofessional, but it's how I feel sometimes :confused:

I'm pretty sure the question was about no more h2b, and many are aware that caps for 2008 were hit early on... but did you really say "sabotage"?

We had an "employee" do something like that... decided to go solo and steal other employees and business. Had all his ducks in row and waited for the perfect time to strike. When it happened, we were tempted to take action to thwart his specific efforts. Instead, someone quoted the tv show "Earl" and said that eventually he'll take a ride on the Karma Train... so we let it go at that. Wouldn't ya' know it, within days his arrangements fell apart, subs and vendors heard about it and wouldn't help him... the Karma Train had pulled into station.

BTW Those h2b guys living 30 per house are not the ones in foreclosure... it's avarage Americans trying to compete with them (or the forces that brought them).

[lawnman_scott]

When did this crap start? I cant beleive that unemployment is above 0% and we get workers from another country. How much do they get? $10-15 per hour? If they dont then its an advantage for bigger companies. Because thats what you have to pay to get a decent worker, and a small company with 1 or 2 employees wont get any h2b workers.

[topsites]

That sounds unprofessional, but it's how I feel sometimes :confused:

I don't quite feel that way but even after reading about recent suicides and murders and other
troubled financially related news stories, I realize it is hitting some folks a lot harder than
others and I don't feel good about their situation, but still the financial bailout pisses me off.

As for the south Americans taking our jobs, to a point we had this one coming but what frustrates is
now that times are tough some are going back on their own, that's just more BS along the same lines.

So one side wants to throw money after it and the other is bailing, and I feel the whole thing is not helping,
if all we got is these fair weather warriors how is anyone supposed to learn anything out of this?

And I don't have a problem with the help per se, it's just this thing, more than a few of us saw this one coming
way back earlier this year, and I know folks who foresaw this crisis as early as summer of 2007, way over a year
before these dire straits we're in now people seen this crap!
And even thou I'm pretty sure none of us knew then just how bad it would be, the question that lingers is
where was our help then? I tell you where it was, the 'help' was sitting around speculating and driving up
the price of gas way beyond where it needed to be, among other things that's where our 'help' was then.
So now there exists a crisis, now we'll bail them out, but with what?
Our own taxpayer's money.

So while I don't agree with the suggestion of sabotaging a corporation,
but I think I know where you're coming from.

God I could rant!

And it might be too late for this, but don't get ME started :p

[txgrassguy]

Caps for certain categories of H2B has historically been filled rapidly.
Pretty much what is happening now is a total disconnect on additional visa permits numbers being issued. Each presidential candidate has their respective philosophy about this problem and undocumented workers so nothing of any value is going to occur until early to mid '09 at the soonest.

[openbook]

I'd be interested in hearing more... sure there are some great people who are here on h2b, but imo it is bad for the industry and is keeping pricing at the same level it was ten years ago.

Though I don't own a company, there are a few around who have acheived a fairly recognizable presence without h2b. They could not do this unless they treated their guys well and retained their experience in order to do more with fewer guys and compete against h2b labor. And this is being done without working weekends.

Anyhow, from past experience in a different industry, now is a tough time to enter the market unless you are leading with price, and when you lead with price... you die by price. There are plenty of companies holding firm on solid pricing who are losing a few accounts to those who fear starvation, or who are entering and unfamiliar with their true costs -hope you ain't one! The established companies will get through, but the guys whose only claim to fame is price often fade. Welcome to LS, and good luck whatever you do.

I am only hoping to get a few new customers next year and do some work on my days off with equipment I already own.

All I know about the h2b thing we are only allowed 5 next year, and we've got 30-40 now.

This other supervisor I've been teamed up with is getting offered a salaried position for the winter. He's older and has been there longer than me so I'm not mad, but the branch manager was out there talking to him this morning and he didn't even look at me or say hi.

They want me to do snow shoveling for them on call this winter. But I don't think so. :nono:

[PHS]

I cant beleive that unemployment is above 0% and we get workers from another country.

Yeah no sh$$, welfare lines are crowded and employers are screaming about not having enough workers...something isn't right. This may be the first depression in history where a country pays foreign nationals to do all of it's work for them. Or maybe things will get so bad here that we'll start flooding accross the border to Mexico and doing jobs that Mexicans won't do :dizzy:.

FWIW, I would much rather have an H2B program than open borders like we have now. At least there is some control on the flow of people in and out of the country.

[PHS]

All I know about the h2b thing we are only allowed 5 next year, and we've got 30-40 now.

That's a problem!! With the company having to hire on so many new employees next year that might put you in a better postion next year as a more veteran employee. If you can figure out how to capitalize on that it may be worth sticking around a little longer.

One piece of advice I can give if you do want to leave is to pay attention and learn as much as you can about how they run the business side of the company before you leave. Owning a landscape business isn't about how you cut the grass or plant the trees, it's about knowing how to run a business that just happens to plants trees or cut grass as it's mode of income. If you head out in a tough economy it's your business savy that's going to get you up and rolling.

[openbook]

That's a problem!! With the company having to hire on so many new employees next year that might put you in a better postion next year as a more veteran employee. If you can figure out how to capitalize on that it may be worth sticking around a little longer.

One piece of advice I can give if you do want to leave is to pay attention and learn as much as you can about how they run the business side of the company before you leave. Owning a landscape business isn't about how you cut the grass or plant the trees, it's about knowing how to run a business that just happens to plants trees or cut grass as it's mode of income. If you head out in a tough economy it's your business savy that's going to get you up and rolling.

Yeah and they keep saying they are going to give us all this training and stuff but they never do. I think they are fearful of teaching us too much and we can start our own company.

[Ch2008]

As far as H2B workers we as a company made a decision for 2009 not to utilize the program for the first time in a few years for a few reasons. While we have had a good core group of H2B employees, we had noticed a few things:
1) Our expenses in regards to housing, etc where increasing but we did not pass the cost onto the employees, due to the fact that we understood they were here working to support those at home ( our fault)
2)beyond our core group of 4 or 5 the rest had goten progressively lazy, I had worked for a landscape company 10 yrs ago with over 100 workers and these men would work there tails off. What we noticed this year was we had more younger guys 20-25, atiitudes, constantly on there cell phones calling home and generally just wanted to sit around and get paid.
3) Our economy and uneplomment rates : With the economy being the way it is we had looked at numbers over the last few monthes and decided if we are dealing with these same problems with H2B workers what is the benefit of them? how could we in good conscious continue to bring in foreign workers knowing John Smith down the road is out of work, orther 20 yr old son? We have adjusted our pricing and crew sizes for next year so we are going to attempt to hire local employees and run everything in that respect. We expect to lose a few customers but out of the renewals we have sent out for next year explaining our thoughts, we have had a 94% positive response, but well see what happens in 09-10 we may be back to H2B, if it still exists.

[PHS]

With the economy being the way it is we had looked at numbers over the last few monthes and decided if we are dealing with these same problems with H2B workers what is the benefit of them? how could we in good conscious continue to bring in foreign workers knowing John Smith down the road is out of work, orther 20 yr old son?

I admire your philosophy. In tough times we need to help each other out. Hopefully with a downturn in the economy, younger Americans won't be so eager to turn up their noses at what were recently considered good starting jobs that are now having to be filled by foreign labor. I suspect too, as their parents are less flush with cash they won't be as eager to support them %100 as has become the trend in the last few years. I'm not anxious for a recession but it may be the tough love we need to get our balance sheets in order as a nation.

2)beyond our core group of 4 or 5 the rest had goten progressively lazy, I had worked for a landscape company 10 yrs ago with over 100 workers and these men would work there tails off. What we noticed this year was we had more younger guys 20-25, atiitudes, constantly on there cell phones calling home and generally just wanted to sit around and get paid.


I agree, many Americans in general are under false impression that hispanic workers are inherently harder workers than Americans. In truth, there are hard workers and lazy people there just like there is here. People are people. The difference is, the lazy ones aren't willing to do all that is necessary to work and succeed in this country (albeit illegally) so all you're left with is the hard working a$$ kickers. I'm 100% against illegal immigration and it makes me angry as hell that neither politician will even address the issue. At the same time I've worked closely with and befriended many hispanic workers and man to man, independent of all the other issues involved, I admire the fire and determination it takes to make a better life for themselves the way they do.