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stevenf
10-15-2008, 12:33 AM
I was putting together a few numbers for the 2009 season. I was planning to buy a commercial Z and a used WB. I was planning on a Quick 32 for the WB. Then I got to thinking. I was going to buy a small sized Z in the 48" range. I put the prices together and figured I could buy a 44" Quick Dually and a 32" Quick for little less then the cost of a 48" ZTR alone. I then searched a little more detail looking for more reasons to run WB. Both WB would be 2/3 the weight of the rider itself which would save in towing fuel loss,trailer wheel bearing life, and about 650lbs less stress on transmission. I wouldnt need as much HP as the rider would need because of the weight difference, therefore it would be more fuel efficient also. I plan on 1/4-1/2 acre lots and it seems like this setup would be alot more cost effective and efficient. I am going to get my Quick 32" around Febuary. I will use it for a few months before I decide on getting the Dually. I sure hope BOP is all its hyped up to be because this could really set me off to a good start in this business.
Do any of you guys only run WB's? Do you ever ache for a rider?

LawnTamer
10-15-2008, 12:39 AM
I only run WBs with sulkies. I realize that a ZTR can be more productive, but the truth is that many of my lawns are on hills. I mow a lot of steep terrain, and most of my lawns are 1/4-1/2 acre lots. I think a WB is about as effective as anything on these lawns and cost is minimal. When equipped with a good sulky, a WB is a great machine.

mag360
10-15-2008, 12:40 AM
I was putting together a few numbers for the 2009 season. I was planning to buy a commercial Z and a used WB. I was planning on a Quick 32 for the WB. Then I got to thinking. I was going to buy a small sized Z in the 48" range. I put the prices together and figured I could buy a 44" Quick Dually and a 32" Quick for little less then the cost of a 48" ZTR alone. I then searched a little more detail looking for more reasons to run WB. Both WB would be 2/3 the weight of the rider itself which would save in towing fuel loss,trailer wheel bearing life, and about 650lbs less stress on transmission. I wouldnt need as much HP as the rider would need because of the weight difference, therefore it would be more fuel efficient also. I plan on 1/4-1/2 acre lots and it seems like this setup would be alot more cost effective and efficient. I am going to get my Quick 32" around Febuary. I will use it for a few months before I decide on getting the Dually. I sure hope BOP is all its hyped up to be because this could really set me off to a good start in this business.
Do any of you guys run on WB's? Do you ever ache for a rider?


The fuel efficiency doesn't really work out as you may expect. A 48 inch ztr will be cutting MUCH more grass in an hour of run time than a quick 44. The quicks are definitely cost effective, though, and have a great reputation on this site (and great support). You should demo a rider and a larger (44 etc.) walk behind on your properties before you buy so you can get an idea of what production gains you may be able to achieve on your route.

Good luck.

Kglenn04
10-15-2008, 12:41 AM
oh man those ZTRs on hill man over board get the picture?

stevenf
10-15-2008, 01:19 AM
The fuel efficiency doesn't really work out as you may expect. A 48 inch ztr will be cutting MUCH more grass in an hour of run time than a quick 44. The quicks are definitely cost effective, though, and have a great reputation on this site (and great support). You should demo a rider and a larger (44 etc.) walk behind on your properties before you buy so you can get an idea of what production gains you may be able to achieve on your route.

Good luck.

Before I dive head first into a company that I know little about from personal experience, I plan to get the Quick 32 in late January-early febuary. If it is as good a machine as any other belt drive mower, I will get the 44" also.
Right now I use a homeowner 44" Z. On my 1/4-1/2 acre neighborhood yards, I only cut for about 12-15 minutes maximum. That is with a Z that is 5mph. The Quick is described at 7.2mph. even if that is off a bit, it will still be more effective then my current rider and sure as hell leave a better cut and be more reliable, I hope...
Also, I have 4 out of 10 small accounts that have a small gate so im expecting about 40% of future accounts will have small gates. The 32 would blow away my 21" mower.
I eventually want to get to the point in this business where I am running solo on 50 weekly accounts. At all minumum prices, this would pull in around $45,000.00 a year. I want to achieve this by cutting 4 mornings a week, taking out around 13 accounts a day at 25 minutes per $30.00 labor. This will allow me to have 4 afternoons a week for weather/equipment delays. After that I plan to higher employees and target more commercial accounts to fill out the schedual more.
Also, I was thinking a proslide for the 44" would be the best for fatigue. It wouldnt require any twisting of the hips, back or knees.
Two of these machines just sounds like a homerun. I could even higher employees and have two mowers running on the same accounts if they are fairly large. Thats equals a 76" deck in productivity.
Why would a 15-16hp WB not be more fuel efficient then a 20hp rider other then speed. Most of my accounts are so small, by the time a ZTR would reach 10mph, I would be turning around again or turning around an object.

DA Quality Lawn & YS
10-15-2008, 01:25 AM
Your WB idea is a valid one.
1/4 - 1/2 acre lots do not even warrant a Z. Please, please don't burn out on small town lots with a big Z - you'll get so much better cut with a nice WB like Better's products.

Go with the two WB's. I use a WB alone and I do it mainly for quality but cost is a factor too.

stevenf
10-15-2008, 01:36 AM
Im really leaning toward this more and more every minute. It wouldnt break the bank and would still be VERY productive for a solo and even a two-three man crew. Someone is letting me look over there Quick this weekend so I may buy the 32" soon so a few leaf cleanups can offset the cost.
So who doesnt have a Z and wishes they did?

topsites
10-15-2008, 03:28 AM
You need at least an acre lot before the Z starts to come out ahead.

delphied
10-15-2008, 08:24 AM
Your plan sounds like a homerun as you said but its more like a first base hit. The Proslide,IMHO, is over rated. Standers are the way to go. Doing 50 per week solo with a WB is gonna get mighty old quick.

gardiner
10-15-2008, 09:04 AM
check this thing out i seen one in use the guy i talked with said they get out of control it wont stop he got off the ztr and put his seat down and pushed the handle bars behind the mower and used it as a wb on the hilll side
http://www.convertiblemower.com/

LawnTamer
10-15-2008, 09:58 AM
Also, I was thinking a proslide for the 44" would be the best for fatigue. It wouldnt require any twisting of the hips, back or knees.


I have used a 44" Dually from BOP, a Proslide would not be a good match. The decks of BOP mowers are short and fairly light. You would have to add about 100 lbs to the front of the deck. They, (BOP) have a Bullrider style sulky that would be ideal. The Dually I used had a regular 2 wheel style sulky, and it did just fine.
The 44" Dually is a joy to use, very intuitive, not at all fatiguing.

PTP
10-15-2008, 10:21 AM
Earlier this year, my foreman was using a quick 44 and a quick 36 - both single hydro.
When I took the business back a couple of months ago, we switched to a Toro 36" WB and a Wright Stander. Production increased by 30%.

I have been VERY pleased with the cut quality on the Stander and it's minimal impact on the lawns. It really has a low PSI on the lawn.

As far as hills go, if I can't mow it with the Stander, then I for sure can't mow it with a WB. I'll take the Stander any day on a hill over my WB.

Tharrell
10-15-2008, 10:49 AM
I have 5 with Jungle Wheels. Here's a pic of 4 of them, I have another Bob-Cat not in the pics.
I've determined that a Z is responsible for a pinched nerve in my back last year. I think a wb is more versatile than a stander and weighs less too.
You can't go wrong with a walkbehind and they're always in demand in case you want to sell them. Tony

Green Finger
10-15-2008, 10:51 AM
The ultimate setup.

A 36 walk behind for back yards gates. A 48 wright and a ztr. You can't beat that set up.

The wright will be used for anything a quarter of an acre on down pound for pound you can't outcut a wright on anything a quarter or less.

ztr anything over a quarter of an acre. The wright can wear you down on he big stuff.

I'll put this setup against any.....:weightlifter:

stevenf
10-15-2008, 11:51 AM
I agree with you guys on the Stander but that would defeat the cost savings purpose. I think there is one dealer about an hour away that has Standers and they are just as expensive as a small Z. This is only a setup for a few years. When my business needs it, I will get a rider and an enclosed trailer to hold all three machines.
They guy that has owned the Quick Dually, did it actually go the full 7.2mph?

mobileboy
10-15-2008, 03:13 PM
I just sold my Hustler mini z 44 for a 36 inch Quick Ninga. I was SICK of the fat ZTR rutting the perimeters of my accounts. I cut small acreages, so won't be losing much in the way of speed, and cut quality and ease on turf should be much better. Plus, I got the new mower, sulky, accelerator bagger, new deck spindle, 2 new pulleys, 2 new belts, service kit, mulch kit, 2 new sets of blades, AND a freggin t-shirt for 3100 after shipping. End of season sale!! I'll challenge anyone to find a better deal on a new walk behind. :weightlifter:

stevenf
10-15-2008, 03:34 PM
I just sold my Hustler mini z 44 for a 36 inch Quick Ninga. I was SICK of the fat ZTR rutting the perimeters of my accounts. I cut small acreages, so won't be losing much in the way of speed, and cut quality and ease on turf should be much better. Plus, I got the new mower, sulky, accelerator bagger, new deck spindle, 2 new pulleys, 2 new belts, service kit, mulch kit, 2 new sets of blades, AND a freggin t-shirt for 3100 after shipping. End of season sale!! I'll challenge anyone to find a better deal on a new walk behind. :weightlifter:

Did you get the same Quality machine as any other brand though? Thats one thing im worried about and im hoping my 32" will make up my mind in a good way.

delphied
10-15-2008, 04:01 PM
I agree with you guys on the Stander but that would defeat the cost savings purpose. I think there is one dealer about an hour away that has Standers and they are just as expensive as a small Z. This is only a setup for a few years. When my business needs it, I will get a rider and an enclosed trailer to hold all three machines.
They guy that has owned the Quick Dually, did it actually go the full 7.2mph?

I think everyone was answering your original post. But now you are saying you want the cheapest set up possible. Sounds like you have all the info that you need.

mobileboy
10-15-2008, 04:09 PM
We'll see about the quality, but from all of my research I'd say these mowers should be unbeatable for the price. They have a very good reputation and very good support from the guys at Better Outdoor. In my brief dealings with them, they have been very knowledgeable and helpful. I'm really looking forward to Friday when I go to pick up the new delivery!

81Bronk36
10-15-2008, 04:11 PM
I got about $1600 into my 48" Ferris Walk w/o a sulky. I only have 7 accounts,
6 that take me less then 9 minutes to mow with a 48, walking between 2nd-3rd gear. I have one 1/2 acre, its 35 minutes to mow, if i pick up bigger accounts I might get a 60, but my W/B suits me great for my set up now.

stevenf
10-15-2008, 05:54 PM
I think everyone was answering your original post. But now you are saying you want the cheapest set up possible. Sounds like you have all the info that you need.

My original post is asking who owns nothing but WB's and who regrets switching to WB or never owning a Rider.

TNT LawnCare Inc.
10-15-2008, 08:30 PM
My original post is asking who owns nothing but WB's and who regrets switching to WB or never owning a Rider.

Steve i used to OWN nothing but WB'S, yes they were great when 1st starting out. But after your business grows they will get old. We use nothing but Wright standers. They hold hills very well. They will outcut any WB Mower with a Sulke ,velke or proslide. I did several time studies with WB mowers and then the standers . They will increase productivity by at least 30% or more.:clapping:

With the standers you can back them off the truck using no energy ,the WB'S you have to man handle on and off the trailer all Day which sucks.

Well best of luck Steve. :waving:

Lil'MowinMan93
10-15-2008, 10:16 PM
Here's is my opinion. Buy a small z 34 inch persay. Then if you grow do what im going to do. I bought a z34 which im picking up tomorrow. When i grow...I'm buying a prowler 52. This way you have a small one just in case you pick up a gated house and a nice big wide mower to make the big yards get done quicker.

JKOOPERS
10-15-2008, 11:12 PM
my theory is that if that z is not running all day long then that means its worthless. if you have wide open areas than yes it might be better but no one lives in that world. think about the time it takes to turn a z compared to a wb on your average size job. all those turns add up

Kennedy Landscaping
10-15-2008, 11:15 PM
I run a Gravely W/B a Husqvarna tractor, a toro 22 and 21" and a Cub Cadet 19"

JKOOPERS
10-15-2008, 11:16 PM
the other point i have is that whos gonna stop to pick up a piece of trash a guy on a z or a guy on a wb

PTP
10-15-2008, 11:17 PM
Earlier this year, my foreman was using a quick 44 and a quick 36 - both single hydro.
When I took the business back a couple of months ago, we switched to a Toro 36" WB and a Wright Stander. Production increased by 30%.

I have been VERY pleased with the cut quality on the Stander and it's minimal impact on the lawns. It really has a low PSI on the lawn.

As far as hills go, if I can't mow it with the Stander, then I for sure can't mow it with a WB. I'll take the Stander any day on a hill over my WB.

Let me revise that.

OVERALL production increased by about 30%. Trimming, edging, blowing, and drive time stayed relatively constant. That means that the mowing time dramatically decreased.

JKOOPERS
10-15-2008, 11:21 PM
i seriously doubt that trimming time would stay the same with a z compared to a wb. as far a stander i cant comment on that i have never used one.

TNT LawnCare Inc.
10-15-2008, 11:31 PM
Let me revise that.

OVERALL production increased by about 30%. Trimming, edging, blowing, and drive time stayed relatively constant. That means that the mowing time dramatically decreased.


PTP iam not sure i understand , how could productivity increase by 30% and mowing time dramatically decrease ?:confused:

Kennedy Landscaping
10-15-2008, 11:46 PM
PTP iam not sure i understand , how could productivity increase by 30% and mowing time dramatically decrease ?:confused:

Because with a productivity increase you can do more in less time. Which the 30% increase would've made his time go down on mowing because he is more efficient with the increase. Hope I helped.

TNT LawnCare Inc.
10-15-2008, 11:49 PM
Because with a productivity increase you can do more in less time. Which the 30% increase would've made his time go down on mowing because he is more efficient with the increase. Hope I helped.

Dont mind me my brain is Fuzzy tonight:sleeping:

stevenf
10-16-2008, 12:41 AM
Are WB's alot quicker turning then Z's?
Also, Alot of my accounts have edges that are about 5-6" above the drive way. If you ride the mower off, it will scalp 95% of the time. Can you just lean backwards on a WB to lift the front wheels and avoid this?

slamjamrockinman
10-16-2008, 01:50 AM
I run a 44 toro hydro with tru-trak. I love the versatility. I can mow small spots, open spots, and hills all pretty efficiently. All my accounts are 1/4 to 1/2 acre. The quick dually looks like an awesome mower as well. To answer your question a hydro walk behind is much easier to turn then a z. Yes you can also pop the front end up to get on trailer, hop curb, or avoid scalping. I think maybe a quick 32 and a 44 dually would be an awesome set-up for your yards. But if you could find a used toro in that price range with a turboforce deck and a tru-trak sulky, I would go with the toro. Other wise the dually 44 would be a great machine. Any other questions let me know! Good luck with your descision!!

BDLC Mikey
10-16-2008, 02:16 AM
guys what it all boils down to is walk behinds are great for starting out... you get a good, durable mower with a commercial quality cut for the price of a good homeowner tractor... what these guys are trying to explain is, when you use a wb, you have to manually remove it from the trailer... which adds up throughout an 8 hour day. also... if you have a belt drive, when you turn the machine you almost have to physically maneuver it with your body... very tiring in a cumulative sort of way. I made the jump to a 48" great dane, and my bunton 36 sits in the shop... and actually on top of the physical benefits, the standers have a much lower scalp potential than most mowers due to their extremly short wheelbase. overall they are even more versatile than wbs imo. and for those of you worried about hills. standers looove hills. so get your quick 32 or whatever... and one of these days demo a stander i guarantee your next mower will be a stander even if you just get a 36" which standers are sold from 34" all the way to 60"...

mag360
10-16-2008, 02:26 AM
Are WB's alot quicker turning then Z's?
Also, Alot of my accounts have edges that are about 5-6" above the drive way. If you ride the mower off, it will scalp 95% of the time. Can you just lean backwards on a WB to lift the front wheels and avoid this?

Yes, you sure can with a wb. Standers are not as easy to lift the deck while in motion but a commercial rider will have a foot pedal to lift the deck and would not be a problem in this situation.

BDLC Mikey
10-16-2008, 02:32 AM
Are WB's alot quicker turning then Z's?
Also, Alot of my accounts have edges that are about 5-6" above the drive way. If you ride the mower off, it will scalp 95% of the time. Can you just lean backwards on a WB to lift the front wheels and avoid this?

on a stander... you just lean back and slightly apply hydros and it does a nice smooth wheelie... which also gets you onto a curb quite easily... id say up to about 8" of curb

delphied
10-16-2008, 08:28 AM
my theory is that if that z is not running all day long then that means its worthless. if you have wide open areas than yes it might be better but no one lives in that world. think about the time it takes to turn a z compared to a wb on your average size job. all those turns add up

I dont get this advice. My 66 Z can turn around way faster than my 48 WB.

olde_blue
10-16-2008, 09:53 AM
Unless you have some really steep hills, get just one mower: a 36" Wright Stander (15hp is about $4800--less than 2 Quicks). I have one, plus a 48" Exmark Z and a 36" walkbehind. On 1/4 acre lots, the 36" Stander will usually outcut the 48" Z (unless it is wide open with few obstacles and no slope). You can add a larger mower later, once you have all the work you can handle.

STIHL GUY
10-16-2008, 10:38 PM
right now i only have a WB but when i graduate and expand the buisness i want a Z for when im in college

S.A.L.
10-16-2008, 11:37 PM
If you're cutting residentials in the N.O. metro area I've found a ZTR to be too slow.
Our area's properties are just too small to take advantage of a ZTR. Even on a street where I have 4 residentials in a row the WB is faster. Plus, the cost up front for the ZTR, as you've stated, is too much to justify.
I use a 36" WB with sulky to cut 30 residential props on Mondays, 20 residentials and 10 commercials on Tuesdays, and any extras get done on Wednesday.
The ZTR was too slow to maneuver, load, unload and too expensive to maintain when compared to a WB.
I don't cut huge props because I don't feel they pay enough when compared to small commercial properties. Therefore, I have no need for a big fast ZTR. And my WB in 5th gear at full tilt will cut at 8MPH which is blazing on even my largest commercial prop (1 acre). The longest straight-a-way is 200 feet then I have to turn around. It's faster to whip around on the WB.
I think you're going in the right direction with your thinking of 2 WBs.
Plus, I don't want to have to use a trailer. The WB fits in the back of my pick ups or my van and I can get around Uptown and jump in and out of parallel parking spots with no problem. I laugh at other lawn services trying to get around the city. It's just not practical on our narrow streets.
What area do you cut?

joeman
10-17-2008, 12:50 AM
remember guys, a wb is like a leaf rake, the day you dont' have one is the day you need one. It's never going away no matter what the technology brings. I use a wb for ditchs and steep hills. My set-up is a 60" gravedigger (gravely), a ghs walker and a hydro wb. As for the wright stander, why would I want to stand all day long? I did demo one when they first came out, oh the horror, I ran over a cement curb and trimmed half a bush off.

dago52
10-17-2008, 01:50 AM
I purchased a 34Z Gravely ZTR. Its a nice mower and it is very fast. This is my primary mower and I am starting to notice the rutting problem. I am thinking about buying a Quick WB 44". All of my properties have large gates so far. The problem I have is that I have never operated a WB. I would hate to sell my mower and then kick myself in the butt. I may wait until next year when the money is rolling to make the purchase. I do not want to chance it at the end of the season.

DA Quality Lawn & YS
10-17-2008, 01:54 AM
Please, no Z's on 1/4 acre lots.
It just looks flat out lazy, plus the rutting.....

brucec32
10-17-2008, 11:37 AM
I was putting together a few numbers for the 2009 season. I was planning to buy a commercial Z and a used WB. I was planning on a Quick 32 for the WB. Then I got to thinking. I was going to buy a small sized Z in the 48" range. I put the prices together and figured I could buy a 44" Quick Dually and a 32" Quick for little less then the cost of a 48" ZTR alone. I then searched a little more detail looking for more reasons to run WB. Both WB would be 2/3 the weight of the rider itself which would save in towing fuel loss,trailer wheel bearing life, and about 650lbs less stress on transmission. I wouldnt need as much HP as the rider would need because of the weight difference, therefore it would be more fuel efficient also. I plan on 1/4-1/2 acre lots and it seems like this setup would be alot more cost effective and efficient. I am going to get my Quick 32" around Febuary. I will use it for a few months before I decide on getting the Dually. I sure hope BOP is all its hyped up to be because this could really set me off to a good start in this business.
Do any of you guys only run WB's? Do you ever ache for a rider?


Yes, those trailer bearing costs are just getting out of hand!

The weight difference and fuel consumption would have marginal impact on your bottom line vs the productivity of the mowers. That's what you need to look at and compare. And you might want to try mowing 50 lawns/week for a few months of summertime before you decide that walking/riding a sulky is worth the minor cost savings.

I used wb's only for about 6-7 years. I am much more productive (maybe $60-$90 per day) with riders and feel less tired. That easily outweighs any weight or fuel related costs. Even the higher machine costs are nothing compared to the productivity increases.

brucec32
10-17-2008, 12:11 PM
I purchased a 34Z Gravely ZTR. Its a nice mower and it is very fast. This is my primary mower and I am starting to notice the rutting problem. I am thinking about buying a Quick WB 44". All of my properties have large gates so far. The problem I have is that I have never operated a WB. I would hate to sell my mower and then kick myself in the butt. I may wait until next year when the money is rolling to make the purchase. I do not want to chance it at the end of the season.

You're getting now to the best reason to use a wb. Turf wear and rutting. I use wb's but they are 21" and that's the size props I need them for. Anything I do with my 32" wb can usually be done with a small frame ztr, and if too small for the ztr the 21" is big enough.

But small plots of more delicate grass types could use a machine like the quicks. I just don't happen to have any of those that can't be done nearly as fast with a 21". I stopwatched every property every day for the last 10 years or so and sometimes I'm surprised at how much time I save with a machine change, but also how little time I save in other situations.

Much of the appeal of the BOP mowers is the low initial cost. Just be aware of the possible long term durability issues vs machines with higher end engines and hydros as well as the unestablished resale potential of a new brand that hasn't yet had wide acceptance as a commercial mower. My guess is you'll find more buyers for a Scag or Exmark than this brand at the current time.

genesis215
10-17-2008, 03:24 PM
I only run WB's. I have a 48" Great Dane Hydro (which is my absoulte favorite), and a 32" Exmark Metro w. belt drive.

mobileboy
10-17-2008, 04:08 PM
Bruce,

Are there really many better engines out there than a Kaw KAI? The reliability of Better's mower has been excellent thus far from what I've read. They are also simple mowers, and easy to work on. You'll be seeing alot more of these mowers on trailers in the future. I'm a new owner and am very impressed with the machine.

lawnprosteveo
10-18-2008, 12:28 AM
I think you also have to consider the price of the machine, parts, number of parts, and how much of a mechanic you are.

I mow part time...3 days a week, 40 properties a week....all but 2 of them are 1/4 acre lots or smaller. All residential, all paying per cut. So for me, buying a $6000 to $8000 machine just doesnt make sense.

I run a Deere Quik Trak that I bought used...its great...but when Ive had to run my Toro 36...I finished in almost the same amount of time. Much time was saved by not having to stop and switch mowers to get into a back yard gate.

Also, I can fix or adjust just about everything on my Toro wb. Im not quite as effecient with my Deere. Also, it has a battery, starter, hydro pumps....more to go out, more to service.

So for part timers like me...an inexpensive wb might make sense.

stevenf
10-18-2008, 02:11 AM
I think you also have to consider the price of the machine, parts, number of parts, and how much of a mechanic you are.

I mow part time...3 days a week, 40 properties a week....all but 2 of them are 1/4 acre lots or smaller. All residential, all paying per cut. So for me, buying a $6000 to $8000 machine just doesnt make sense.

I run a Deere Quik Trak that I bought used...its great...but when Ive had to run my Toro 36...I finished in almost the same amount of time. Much time was saved by not having to stop and switch mowers to get into a back yard gate.

Also, I can fix or adjust just about everything on my Toro wb. Im not quite as effecient with my Deere. Also, it has a battery, starter, hydro pumps....more to go out, more to service.

So for part timers like me...an inexpensive wb might make sense.


I am good at trouble shooting and repairing this type of work. That wouldnt be a problem.

One more question for you guys. What about fixed deck WB like the Quicks? Do you notice scalps more often or is it actually a better cut because the deck is always perfectly level no matter the ground condition?

jeffex
10-18-2008, 07:08 AM
I just want to throw my 2 cents in here. I was...WAS... the king of walkbehinds only for 1/4 acre lots. That is until tendinitis in my hips forced me to buy a exmark lazer Z hp 23 hp kohler to help let my hips heal. I should have bought one 10 years ago. I easily cut 1 or 2 more lawns in the 3 hour period I cut in the evenings and am way less tired than even riding on a velky behind a w/b. I still have to use the w/b on some hills and gated backyards but If your in this game for the long run...get a z IMO. I have yet to have to double cut even the tallest of grass with my lazer and the fear I had of my customers being afraid of its size was unwarranted. They love it and it is quieter than my 15 hp kohlers. I can see myself doing this for 10 more years with a lazer but NOT with a walk behind. As far as rutting goes I would have to leaze the Z at home if I was forced to cut in wet conditions. the biggest thing is getting used to not leaving burnouts with the tires but it doesn't take long to learn the 3 point turn at the end of a run. i don't have to think about it any more . it just happens

genesis215
10-18-2008, 02:34 PM
I agree with mobileboy that the Kawasaki KAI engine is BY FAR the best engine made. the bigger ones just don't last quite as long. I have the FH451V 15HP Kawasaki KAI on my 48" Great Dane WB, and it is an absolute king of an engine. I had one before on a 36" Super Surfer. I never have to pull more than twice, and it is very fuel efficient for the amount of torque you get. They sound great too. They will run for 3000 hrs. without problems if you use good quality oil like Mobil 1 or Amsoil.

S.A.L.
10-19-2008, 01:29 AM
I also agree about the Kawis.
Mine is very fuel efficient and the oil remains clean and full for a very long time. I've never had to add oil as a matter of fact.
Cranks on the first pull at zero throttle which also means zero choke; Even after sitting from Tuesday evening to the next Monday morning. (2 day work week)
And it sounds just like a V-twin motorcycle. You can't beat it.
It's very torquey too. I run one gear up and throttle down to about 70% (2500RPM).
I can run my 60 lawn route twice on 4 gallons.
Amazing.