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TPnTX
10-15-2008, 04:22 PM
I just threw this together using site builder. I need some objective critique. So if you don't mind fire away. My next step is to add pics and some "flair" but this is my starting point

www.pennylandscape.com

fool32696
10-15-2008, 10:05 PM
Looks pretty good. I'd balance out the first couple pages with pictures or something on the right side.

lawnman_scott
10-15-2008, 10:40 PM
What is site builder? Is it a program you buy, and if so how much was it?

TXNSLighting
10-16-2008, 01:02 AM
That site sucks!! Ha! J/k bud. Looks very good, get some pictures up there! Any lighting going on in your neck of the woods?

Turboguy
10-19-2008, 07:10 AM
I think you did a pretty good job. Your text is good and does a nice job of presenting a postive image with few, but well thought out words and the photos are excellent. Good job.

steveparrott
10-19-2008, 04:40 PM
TP, sorry to disagree with the others but if I were a high-end homeowner visiting your site, I'd wonder about your professionalism. The site is very amateurish looking. Let me count the ways. . . poorly rendered logo; overly large and bold text; text centered in some places, flush left in others; ugly navigation buttons; ugly navigation bar; gradient background that creates an unbalanced appearance.

On the positive side, your text is fairly well written (but the site appearance contradicts what you say about committment to quality and attention to detail).

Sorry to be harsh here, but as a web design pro I've seen too many quality businesses like yours fail to recognize the importance of hiring a pro to design the most important marketing tool you have.

My advice, take it or leave it, invest a few thousand dollars in a professional site that matches the quality of your business. You'll get your money back many times over.

PestPro
10-20-2008, 07:09 PM
ok..check it out and let me know what you think...It is a Pest Control site, not Lawn care...sorry

www.pestproservices.net

tommyviv
11-15-2008, 11:30 AM
to pest pro, bad: multi colored sentences look like an ebay ad. and maybe a nicer font. pictures take a long time (slower than we impatient people are accustomed to) to load as the links buttons, and I do have high speed connection too. I would move the links down to the bottom with buttons.
Good: very informative I went thru the whole thing looking at all the pictures and read all the small words.
Im no pro by any means ....maybe it shows ...just an opinion from a guy who tried to build his own site.....and I have NO training or patience!

WebMan
11-17-2008, 01:44 PM
One thing I do not understand about your site is the first time I opened it the two pictures on the right-hand side did not display. After going to one of your other pages and returning to the home page. Then those photographs appeared. The first time though was just a large blank space there. I will note that I opened it in Opera, and so it may be a problem with your site builder (some of them are geared specifically to Internet Explorer. And don't always display right on other browsers).

The next thing involves the same thing (the old broken record) of what your site says to me in that all-important first 8 seconds that will be a benefit to me, rather than just a description of you. First off, the line "managing your landscape" should be eliminated. There's another bold text, directly underneath it and the managing your landscape part doesn't apply to anything in the following paragraph. Then that following paragraph says "Penny Landscape has built a reputation in our industry and within the community as a group of respected service professionals that are highly committed to providing quality landscape services to our commercial and residential clients." And right there you have burned up your all-important 8 seconds. You haven't done anything to tell me what you can do to benefit me, you have only told me about your reputation within the landscape industry and in your community.
First I couldn't care less about your reputation in the landscape industry, because what I need is some landscaping done. I'm not another landscaper wanting to know about your reputation in our industry. Second, you mentioning your reputation in the community, which is dangerous; because if I am in your community and have not heard of you, then that line makes no sense. And I start to question the truthfulness of your text right there. About the only thing I have gained in that first 8 seconds that you have to get me as a potential customer, interested enough to continue reading your site and possibly contact you is that you provide quality landscape services to your commercial and residential clients. Since I am not already a client that doesn't apply to me either.
Now please don't think I'm being "hard on you" you asked; and I'm just pointing out the subconscious messages your text sends.

I am beginning to wonder if all of the tips that I have given people here, and the time I have spent trying to help people with their websites is kind of a waste. Because people continue to seem to miss that all-important "third-party" view of their website. I am not being critical of you in particular or her particular website. Probably 80% of the websites I see here are guilty of the same thing. But as I have said over and over in the Internet business. There is, what is called "the 8 second rule" which means that you have between eight and 10 seconds to catch my attention enough to let me know that you do, what I need done; and show me enough of a benefit to me that you can potentially provide that will interest me enough to continue reading your site and leave me to do what you want me to do, which is contact you. The goal of every service website is to initiate a contact. Because without a contact either by e-mail or filling out your contact form or calling you, you have no chance of selling your services to me. As I explained when commenting on another website just the other day, landscaping and lawn care is not something like an e-commerce site. Were, you can put up a picture of a beautiful lawn and say make your property look like this only $29.95 and a little checkbox where I can "add to cart.

Then your services page is simply a list of the services you provide, and again gives me no reason that those services benefit me. It's simply a list. As far as websites go, and as far as "selling" me on using your company; it's totally useless.
I suggest that you go back and look at your entire website as I always advise people to do; from the customer's point of view. Remember that all sales are initiated to someway relieve pain or bring pleasure. Then rework that all-important first paragraph of your website to tell me how your company is going to benefit me, by relieving some pain or bringing me some tight pleasure. Whether it's by giving me more free time, because I don't have to do my landscaping myself, or whether it's because my yard will look better than anyone else's on the block, or because you are as qualified as you say you are, and thus you can provide a more cost-effective solution to whatever my landscaping needs are, thus saving me money. And hopefully you'll come up with a brief concise paragraph that catches my attention about your company and makes me think "these people look interesting. I think I'll see what they have to offer." Then reworked your other pages like services, to tell me how each of those services is going to benefit me and use those pages to actually "sell" me on the idea of filling out your contact form or clicking on an e-mail link (which I did not see) or giving your phone call.

Like I always advise people invent the mythical character. "Joe Customer" and look at your website from his point of view.
Now your own particular "Joe Customer" should be the person that is your most profitable type of customer. The one that you want your website to reach.
No one company can be everything to everyone. So you need to look at your website from the point of view of the type person, who has proved to be your most profitable client or else the ones who generally choose you.
If you stop and look long enough you will find similarities in your customers and you can begin to get an idea of what the common factors might be that those people have and why that might have attracted them to using your company.
Then design everything you do and write all your text in a way to be most appealing to that person. As an example, if most of your customers are not very highly educated going into the details of how your fertilizing program works, and improves the soil quality better than anyone else's is going to fall on deaf ears.
However, if a lot of your customers are more highly educated, and "technical types" then the fact that you understand the chemistry that makes what you're doing work the way that it does might be a selling point or a benefit to them and be a "proof" you are as highly qualified, as you say you are, because you have all this knowledge. Two totally different approaches and i can't say which to use because I don't know your customers.

Hopefully this has been of some help, as it is your website is just like a little newspaper ad. It just tells me a little bit about your company and who you are, and does absolutely nothing to "sell me" on using your company for my landscape needs over someone else.

PS: Nice talking to a fellow Texan :waving:

Kiril
11-18-2008, 10:54 AM
In addition to other comments:

1) Code needs to be cleaned up.
2) There are layout/display issues that need to be addressed

TPnTX
11-30-2008, 02:20 PM
taking advantage of some down time.

I appreciate everyones advise and crtique.

First off, I'm not going to spend 2k right now on my website. It's not that I don't understand the importance of it. It's a matter of budget.

As far as graphics, I'll have to deal with what Sitebuilder offers. The Logo I can improve somehow. I made it myself but I cant seem to get a decent rendering that looks ogg on the the webpage.

I'm don't know why the home/index thing is confused. I've re-published it a dozen times but I can't the image to appear without clicking in HOME.

My main point is what can I improve. The Logo, got it. The "Sitebuilder" quality I'm just going to have to deal with for now.

I'm going to read and re-read thing posted here and try to address those thing I can get to and do anything about.

thanks again.

TPnTX
11-30-2008, 02:35 PM
To Everyone. First of all thanks again for not only taking the time to look at my website but to reply with your comments. Again, no excuses but I just managed to throw that together.

Steve. Dang it! The backgrounds and Themes site builder offers all looked dumb. So I created that gradient background in publisher rotated, cropped it and used it as a background. Then WHAM you shoot it down. LOL, I'm going to backburner that one for now. I'll straighten up all the text inconsistencies you pointed out.

My Logo, I created it in publisher also. How can I get a decent rendering from that? Do I need to use something besides JPG or PDF?

Webman, I gotcha. That is a lot of thought provoking advise. You mentioned all the advise you've given. Uh, you only have 9 posts man... lol just kidding. I appreciate it.

From my perspective. When you say "your list of services is just a list". Slap me here but Yeah it's a list. I mean I'm pretty much a KISS type person so what are you suggesting? To elaborate on each service? I'm not arguing. I'm discussing because I don't understand..yet

Ryan, turns out your humor was actually accurate...lol

TPnTX
11-30-2008, 02:40 PM
The worst thing about site builder other than the poor graphic choices is the size. I don't know what the correct term is form factor maybe but you when you go full screen it has a lot of wasted space on the sides. That why I put that whiteish backgound image on there.

Probably reason enough alone not to use site builder it but the reality is at least I have a website.

TPnTX
11-30-2008, 02:52 PM
Webman, I know you know what your talking about. I'm not arguing or disagreeing with anything. I tried to PM you this but since I can't I'll have to post it.

Okay taking in everything you said. Then I went to your website. Holy COW. 8 second rule! man thats more text than I can read much less something that stands out. Please explain. As Ross Perot said. "Im all ears"

Kiril
11-30-2008, 03:54 PM
My main point is what can I improve. The Logo, got it. The "Sitebuilder" quality I'm just going to have to deal with for now.

Two different source files.

Assuming "Home.html" is in your domain root, rename it to "index.html", which also resides in your domain root. You may need to delete the current index.html first before renaming.

Then point your "home" links to the domain root, not a specific page.

PestPro
11-30-2008, 04:15 PM
taking advantage of some down time.

I appreciate everyones advise and crtique.

First off, I'm not going to spend 2k right now on my website. It's not that I don't understand the importance of it. It's a matter of budget.

As far as graphics, I'll have to deal with what Sitebuilder offers. The Logo I can improve somehow. I made it myself but I cant seem to get a decent rendering that looks ogg on the the webpage.

I'm don't know why the home/index thing is confused. I've re-published it a dozen times but I can't the image to appear without clicking in HOME.

My main point is what can I improve. The Logo, got it. The "Sitebuilder" quality I'm just going to have to deal with for now.

I'm going to read and re-read thing posted here and try to address those thing I can get to and do anything about.

thanks again.

Have you tryed using Web Studio, that is what I use, and it is a stand alone program not one you have to pay per month.

http://www.webstudio.com/

TPnTX
11-30-2008, 04:31 PM
I took a glance mainly at some of the example webpages done by customers. I may be wrong but I think they are all about the same. The DIY drag and drop tools. It all looks framed.

Again the biggest issue I have right now is the screen real estate. Look at Lawnite for example. It uses the whole screen and is relative to your resolution settings.

Kiril
11-30-2008, 05:30 PM
Again the biggest issue I have right now is the screen real estate. Look at Lawnite for example. It uses the whole screen and is relative to your resolution settings.

There are good reasons for having fixed width sites, one being there is simply not enough content to fill up a screen at high resolutions. Does your site have enough content to not look silly at resolutions above 1600x1024?

TPnTX
11-30-2008, 05:47 PM
Two different source files.

Assuming "Home.html" is in your domain root, rename it to "index.html", which also resides in your domain root. You may need to delete the current index.html first before renaming.

Then point your "home" links to the domain root, not a specific page.

Yep I had already done that. Initially I had a Home and a Index. So I deleted the home and designated index as home.(sitebuilder?). It looked good in the editor but over and over I would publish it and it wouldn't work right. ? Now I've made these changes and it seems to work.

TPnTX
11-30-2008, 05:49 PM
Does your site have enough content to not look silly at resolutions above 1600x1024?
probably not.

is this question on the test? :)

I made some changes take a look

www.pennylandscape.com

WebMan
11-30-2008, 06:23 PM
Webman, I know you know what your talking about. I'm not arguing or disagreeing with anything. I tried to PM you this but since I can't I'll have to post it.

Okay taking in everything you said. Then I went to your website. Holy COW. 8 second rule! man thats more text than I can read much less something that stands out. Please explain. As Ross Perot said. "I'm all ears"

I can't put the 1st 8 seconds of text on here because it would be advertising, but basically it tells you that you can quit looking you have found the host you are looking for, and the biggest 3 advantages of using us if you are a business.

Now I'll admit the site is terribly outdated because like the plumber with the leaky faucet I don't have time to work on my own stuff. I had a post here and got a couple of good suggestions for "what made you choose your host?" so I could re-do the old thing to get some of the points guys like the ones here are looking for...but the moderators pulled it. I guess they considered it advertising but I never asked anyone to go to MY site...just what it was about their host's site that made them chose that host?

See this forum is really an unusual bunch in comparison the the "general" web world" and it REALLY intrigues me.
For one Yahoo is used by a huge percentage of people here compared to people on other "trade" sites. And what seems to influence "landscapers" is a mystery to me.
I AM NOT PUTTING ANYONE DOWN but there are about a half-dozen people here who kind-of fit the pattern of the "average" web customer. But the rest are out there somewhere with their thinking and I have spent ages trying to figure a pattern or something and other than the Yahoo deal (which is a way from the best choice if you "shop"--that's what makes it unusual such a high percentage here use them) and I can't find one. It's all over the map. It's like you, I bet you are within a few dollars of us for a really low-end site builder and a company that I bet you can't get help from while we have a money back guarantee if you didn't like ours with phone/e-mail & ticket support as do a LOT of hosts IF you shop. (mods if that's advertising to you please just cut the line not the whole post)

As for $2K to have a site built I'll say it again. There is NO REASON for a good, money-making, landscape contractor web site to cost more than $200-$300 and if you want bells & whistles & such (which won't get you one more customer & I'm not talking about the slide show--that's a nothing deal, I'm talking all kinds of moving stuff with sound & similar stuff or maybe even a database like that guy talked about in the other post to create mailing lists from your web site) THEN you might hit $500 tops!
I don't know WHO you guys talk that give you these outrageous prices or why if you go the budget way you don't try site builder hosts with a money back deal or such so if you don't like it you might try 2 or 3 to get one YOU like.

See that's the type stuff the "general" web host customer does. They will shop several hosts closely comparing all the options, any hidden costs one place that might be free somewhere else, if it is truly "business grade" with standard free backups and guaranteed uptime.They may go through a host a month for 2 or 3 months until they find the one they like. At the least the FIRST thing they do is call sales or better support and see how long it takes to get a real person (that speaks English)
But I would bet you took a "one year" plan to save a "free month" or the amount you spend on a super size burger, coke & fries or a move rental--one or 2... nothing when you think of it. The $3-$5 hosts are made for general "stuff" not business, business will cost $9-$12 on average. $4-$5 a month difference, so maybe $60 a year, less than one repair on a piece of your equipment which will sit idle if the web site doesn't get business.
You can get an e-mail & phone from my web site (since you have already been and can't PM me--and they'll get you to me, I can give you a call or whatever just to very to help you straighten out that web site (if we can) since you are a fellow Texan. But if their site builder is as bad as you say I will have to ask (can't help myself) "why did you choose these guys?"

OR we might get lucky. Sometimes in their haste a new site builder will do something they shouldn't at the very start (check the wrong box or such) and that can generate a bunch of stuff that will mess up everything else after that.. site builders can be quirky that way. Might just remove 1 or 2 things and it would straighten out a bunch of the display problems...-you never know :confused:

Be good to chat, first fellow Texan I've noticed here...

TPnTX
11-30-2008, 07:37 PM
yeah and I guess you realize I wasn't bashing your site. I used to know a guy that was a developer for EDS. We rode ATV's a lot so when he made his website to host pics, ride events, tech stuff, he did the whole damn website with text. And it worked.

The 2k price tag was mentioned by Steve. I know where he works and they have a basass website.

I didn't quite tell the whole truth on my first post. I was so busy last spring and my website sucked bad. I had asked this girl who worked for us to go to yahoo, use their tools to build a website that I can get email from and post pics to nothing fancy. Just get me a webpage. She did exactly that. She even put the stick-man mouse trail crap on there. The first chance I got I redid it. Since she had the framework done I just went in and put the graphics basically re-doing everything color scheme and all.

Your selling points are right on. I don't care for a bunch of flash and I want to be able to maintain it myself once its up. So if I had someone develope a website then, I'd have to get an app to maintain it. I know I can ftp pics and stuff but it seems to me an endless amount of tweaking is needed.

In terms of "impressing" a client, I don't the bar is real high in the landscape industry. I think youre more apt to get too much than too little. I have gotten many many calls from my website this summer. So it's all about the web presents and how easily someone can find you. Or how many times you can step out in front of a potential client. The endless galleries of pics are a necessity but only to the extent that you may give them some ideas.

I do agree completely with the shopping cart philosophy. What do I have to do to get them to put something in the cart. I like that and I am giving it a lot of thought.

So anyway thanks again for the input. I'm a Texan alright one of the few natives you'll meet these days. Im in Royse City, Where 'bouts are you?

Kiril
11-30-2008, 10:38 PM
Yep I had already done that. Initially I had a Home and a Index. So I deleted the home and designated index as home.(sitebuilder?). It looked good in the editor but over and over I would publish it and it wouldn't work right. ? Now I've made these changes and it seems to work.

Didn't work. Stop using the site builder and do it manually via FTP.

TPnTX
12-01-2008, 12:25 AM
did you look again? I changed everything and new images work now.

Kiril
12-01-2008, 12:48 AM
did you look again? I changed everything and new images work now.

Yes, now twice. Should I take a screen shot?

TPnTX
12-01-2008, 01:17 AM
yes if you don't mind. Here is what I see.

Kiril
12-01-2008, 01:33 AM
.................................

My bad .... cache wasn't cleared. Note the positioning problem with your address.

Kiril
12-01-2008, 01:44 AM
BTW, I would lose the subway pic.

TPnTX
12-01-2008, 01:48 AM
damit! wtf? why is it doing that? It's not the resolution. Are you using IE?

You know I thought about that but I got that pic from the property management/investment company that owns the building and pays me. The have it on their website. Thats actually the property I maintain. I'll take my chances for now.

Kiril
12-01-2008, 01:56 AM
damit! wtf? why is it doing that?

It is a positioning problem. Your CSS is not even close to being valid. Fix your CSS, Fix your code ..... PLEASE

Are you using IE?

No, and you should not assume I am. At a minimum you should be testing your site in ALL major browsers for the current and last 2-3 major versions.

Word of advice, don't use IE to check/design web sites.

TPnTX
12-01-2008, 02:07 AM
If I wanted to fix my code I'd learn HTML. I don't want to learn HTML I want to act stupid and look smart :)

Really what is CSS and can I download a fix?

You got two browsers. IE and Firefox. Anything else statistically isn't worth the effort. lol I'm just yanking your chain.

TPnTX
12-01-2008, 02:11 AM
Your using Linux aren't you. I can spot you guys a mile away.

TPnTX
12-01-2008, 02:30 AM
so what do I do use CSS hacks and browser detection?

Kiril
12-01-2008, 02:43 AM
so what do I do use CSS hacks and browser detection?

Write compliant code. :)

TPnTX
12-01-2008, 08:41 AM
write code...Im not smart enough to write code. I prefer to use apps that gen the code for you. Saves time and hair.

Seriously what are you using so I can try and fix it.

Kiril
12-01-2008, 10:00 AM
Seriously what are you using so I can try and fix it.

I don't understand the question. I use Firefox as my primary browser, I write code with various text editors.

TPnTX
12-01-2008, 06:23 PM
my question was about your browser. thanks

Look I guess I said something wrong I was just jacking with you. If I wanted to be a web developer I would be a web developer. HTML is not too difficult and compared to c#, php, VB even SQL or any scripting language it's hardly "writing code" Im mean it is but it isn't. So I wouldnt get too fluffed up about it and don't forget your riding on the short bus here at lawnsite.

Now me. I want a website. As long as I get web presents and don't look too unprofessional it will get the job done. This is my first attempt. Once my budget allows it, I will spend the money to have someone do a much better job.

Meanwhile anit IE or anti Windows persons usually self proclaimed "Linux Gurus" get all bent out of shape because someones website isn't compliant with endless variations of browsers trying to take over the world. I'm not impressed and further what are the odds that a customer finds me via google and my website isn't compliant with their "netscape" browser. Odds are they are using IE on XP or maybe vista which I would take if someone gave it to me.

So since my several attempts at being humorous failed, there you have it and now you know what I really think.

Take my advice. A little humor makes the world a much better place.

TPnTX
12-01-2008, 10:57 PM
so to the extent that sitebuilder will allow, I've made the home page about as simple I can make it.

www.pennylandscape.com

Kiril
12-01-2008, 11:06 PM
It is not that hard to write compliant html/css code ... as you said, it's not a scripting language.

BTW, before you assume once again that everyone uses IE, you might want to actually look at web stats.

http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp

I think 44% qualifies as a significant portion of users.

TPnTX
12-02-2008, 12:39 AM
I think you'd be surprised if you dissected those stats. I feel, it's not a statistic but a hunch, that the majority of consumers don't stray too far from the path.

You keep saying writing code. I don't know how to be more clear. I'm not writing code. I'm using a drag and drop/cut and paste app. I don't have time or the desire to become proficient at developing website. I hate this stuff.

So are you suggesting that once I get a page looking like I want it, to go in and modify the code for browser detection? Do you use an app to test for compliance and list violations.

look at my my home page now. If your browser can't deal with that then hey, what can I say.

Understand, if I was a web developer for walmart or getting paid to develop websites, completely different story.

Kiril
12-02-2008, 02:44 AM
If that is how you feel, then I suggest you stop asking people for input.

FYI, it has nothing to do with browser detection, and there are "drag & drop" apps out there that write mostly compliant code.

TPnTX
12-02-2008, 09:09 AM
[QUOTE=Kiril;2626291]If that is how you feel, then I suggest you stop asking people for input.

not fair. Come on man I guess you don't see it. Let me set the scene because its pretty funny.

A guy comes on here like so many others do with his lame ass website in tow. He wants to show his peers and few more knowledgeable people and ask about how it looks.

Expecting some harsh word and advise on style content marketing and so forth. Now this guy, me in this case, makes no bones about it. He doesnt know what he is doing and further he's using the most rudimentary program out there to create his website. It's not even the "for dummies" approach. Its below that.

So he gets some good advise but there is this one poster who obviously does this for a living. Why he's trolling a lawnsite forum isn't exactly clear. He begins to give his input but it's completely over the head of the illiterate person asking for help. "your css is invalid" "fix your code" "write compliant" code. Huh? WTF are you talking about? I'm pointing and clicking did I do that wrong?

Once you pounce on that with your vague one liners clearly blowing away the point , you don't/won't explain what your talking about. It's like your walking into a third grade classroom and trying impress the kids with long division.

So there. I wasn't trying to be a smartass. Thats what you do. You can't then retreat to the "well if you can't take advise" to make me look insulted. I'm not insulted. I'm not overly impressed that your a coder and you really need to lighten up some.

Go rent the movie with J. Knoxville "Ringer". It a great example of when the smartest ****** thinks he's a genius.

One more thing. Your advise is correct. It's just out of context. Perhaps you should consult for some of the companies who provide the entry level apps. Case in point. Landscaperoo.com. Its a comparible service to sitebulder. Why dont you go there and use those tools to create a website that meets standards. If it doesn't then you'll have a good place for the level of advise you have to offer.

Kiril
12-02-2008, 10:03 AM
So he gets some good advise but there is this one poster who obviously does this for a living.

I don't code for a living, in fact, I have never collected one red cent from coding. I do however code on my free time and have spent many years and 10's of thousands of hours in that pursuit.

Once you pounce on that with your vague one liners clearly blowing away the point , you don't/won't explain what your talking about. It's like your walking into a third grade classroom and trying impress the kids with long division.

I am not here to give a seminar on web design. If you are going to design a website then it would be expected you at least do some searches to learn the basics of web site design. IMHO, anyone who designs a website should at a minimum know basic HTML and CSS and know how to look at and do basic modifications to their code manually.

So there. I wasn't trying to be a smartass. Thats what you do. You can't then retreat to the "well if you can't take advise" to make me look insulted. I'm not insulted. I'm not overly impressed that your a coder and you really need to lighten up some.

If you don't want advice then don't post a site asking for input. If all you are looking for is some ego stroking then show your site to friends and family. If you want some real advice that will help your website standout and can be effectively parsed by web bots, then you need to suck it up and learn something new.

Now if you are going to continue to use romper room site builders and not fork out the money for a real design program, or learn how to code manually, or at least look around for free alternative programs ( like Amaya (http://www.w3.org/Amaya/) ) then you get what you deserve .... a crappy site.

Perhaps you should consult for some of the companies who provide the entry level apps.

Why would I do that when I have designed my own CMS ... oh and yes, it does generate XHTML 1.1 & CSS 3 compliant code.

TPnTX
12-02-2008, 10:41 AM
lost cause forget about it and I'll leave the stroking and egos to you.

Kiril
12-02-2008, 10:49 AM
lost cause forget about it and I'll leave the stroking and egos to you.

Given the following comment, it is a lost cause.

I think you'd be surprised if you dissected those stats. I feel, it's not a statistic but a hunch, that the majority of consumers don't stray too far from the path.

TPnTX
12-02-2008, 11:29 AM
alright, now you've managed to reduced this to a "who has the best comeback contest"

Youre right. Im wrong. Youre the best. Youre brilliant actually. What was I thinking.

LOOK we have a genius with us today. Everybody come see!

there. Sorry I doubted you abilities and foresight.

TXNSLighting
12-02-2008, 11:56 AM
Wow this got out of hand...Kiril, We dont understand that crap! Why cant you dumb it down for us instead of insulting this guy that he doesnt know what the crap youre talking about! I have a website and i have no idea what your talking about. If you're going to bash someone at least explin how to fix it in english!!!:hammerhead:

I think it looks much better Tom.

Lawn-Scapes
12-02-2008, 12:05 PM
TPnTX... Maybe you should to chill out a little... Maybe this your way of taking your frustrations out for lack of knowledge and crappy looking site. I reread this thread twice and you are coming across like an A$$.

On a positive note.. I like your logo!

Kiril
12-02-2008, 12:16 PM
Wow this got out of hand...Kiril, We dont understand that crap! Why cant you dumb it down for us instead of insulting this guy that he doesnt know what the crap youre talking about! I have a website and i have no idea what your talking about. If you're going to bash someone at least explin how to fix it in english!!!:hammerhead:

It is impossible to dumb it down for someone who has made it clear he doesn't want to learn. Why should I take the time or make the effort to explain something he doesn't care about?

If he wants to make at least a little effort to understand the basics behind creating a web page, then search the web for some tutorials. If he or anyone has questions after that, I would be more than happy to answer them, however I am not going to write or fix code just for the hell of it.

Heck, even if he would simply ask how to fix a specific error that was spit out by the validator I would help, but he hasn't even taken that basic step.

Long story short ..... start here -> http://www.w3.org/

TPnTX
12-02-2008, 12:23 PM
Lawn-Scape Youre probably right. I'm moving on.

Crappy looking site? you mean "CLS error"

Ha youre so stupid! You sir need to get with the program. :) Who doesn't know what CLS is. HA, OMG! See Im joking around again. I'll never learn.

Now see that is what I consider an honest useful oppinion and something I can do something about. Did you look at the latest version. Still crappy?

www.pennylandscape.com

TPnTX
12-02-2008, 12:34 PM
Alright stop.

This isn't a major issue. Its a f'n lawn care website.

Kiril has about a much personality as stump and I tend to joke around to the point I end up being an ass. Not a good combination.

So if anyone cares to offer advise on appearance, marketing issues and overall style I would be very appreciative. If not don't let the back button hit you on the way out.

This is a starting point. All other tech issue will come in time. I've only managed to get the home page to point where I think it's a good draft version.

Kiril
12-02-2008, 12:49 PM
So if anyone cares to offer advise on appearance, marketing issues and overall style I would be very appreciative.

See bold above -> and therefore the reason for checking your page validation. Web bots read code ... if you want the bots to effectively crawl your site, then you need to write well structured, compliant code. While I have never coded a web spider/bot, I have coded several different types of code parsers and I am telling you and everyone else who cares, if the code is broke -> it is quite likely it will get skipped. Of course this depends on how the information is being collected, but instead of guessing at how a web bot might parse your sites pages, just provide the bot with well structured, compliant code and be done with it. It's a markup language, not rocket science.

Kiril
12-02-2008, 12:55 PM
Ha youre so stupid! You sir need to get with the program. :) Who doesn't know what CLS is. HA, OMG! See Im joking around again. I'll never learn.

You do know how to use google ... right?

CMS = content management system (#2 listing on google when using search phrase "CMS")

TPnTX
12-02-2008, 01:01 PM
Kiril are you serious? Tell me your not serious. That is your attempt at developing a sense of humor right?

TPnTX
12-02-2008, 01:04 PM
anyway mr. spok I have question for you.

It seems to me that if I use sitebuilder. Then I go in an modify the html file with text editor would it not get changed back at some point by the sitebuilder app.

See my point?

Kiril
12-02-2008, 01:12 PM
anyway mr. spok I have question for you.

It seems to me that if I use sitebuilder. Then I go in an modify the html file with text editor would it not get changed back at some point by the sitebuilder app.

See my point?

No I don't see your point. If you want, use the site builder for your basic design, refine the code manually. Once that is done, why do you even need to use the site builder again?
I have taken the junk spewed out by FrontPage and reduced it's foot print by 50% (code reduction) and made it compliant with little effort.
The errors your site is spitting out are easy to fix, and a little research on your part would show you how to fix those errors.
Heck, the validator tells you specifically what it is expecting ... what more can you want?

If you want to "automatically" fix your site, there are also apps that do that to some extent (HTML Tidy being one of them).

Why don't you ask a specific question about how to fix the code? At least then you are making an effort to understand what you are building.

Kiril
12-02-2008, 01:17 PM
Kiril are you serious? Tell me your not serious. That is your attempt at developing a sense of humor right?

What, serious about developing a CMS ... yes I am serious. I don't even want to think about how much time I have spent working on that.
It currently is shelved due to other stuff that is eating up my free time, but eventually I will finish it.

TPnTX
12-02-2008, 01:28 PM
I don't see my website as being a one time thing. If I spend all this time tweaking and adding pics whatever I wondered if it go back and undo all the manual changes I made. But nevermind I won't ask any more questions from you because you've already done enough for me and I appreciate it. You've got a really f'd up personality and you could have passed along a lot of info very easily. Instead you choose to be a completly pompus....

Also I know what your hang up is. Your one of the open source fanatics. Everything else sucks and you have an HO for anything Bill Gates.

BTW dont be so presumptuous
URI : http://www.pennylandscape.com/index.html
13 BODY Value Error : font-size only 0 can be a length. You must put an unit after your number : 12
14 P Value Error : font-size only 0 can be a length. You must put an unit after your number : 12
24 Value Error : left only 0 can be a length. You must put an unit after your number : 1
24 Value Error : width only 0 can be a length. You must put an unit after your number : 346
24 Value Error : height only 0 can be a length. You must put an unit after your number : 164
24 Value Error : left only 0 can be a length. You must put an unit after your number : 351
24 Value Error : width only 0 can be a length. You must put an unit after your number : 236
24 Value Error : height only 0 can be a length. You must put an unit after your number : 161
31 Value Error : left only 0 can be a length. You must put an unit after your number : 596
31 Value Error : top only 0 can be a length. You must put an unit after your number : 196
31 Value Error : width only 0 can be a length. You must put an unit after your number : 306
31 Value Error : height only 0 can be a length. You must put an unit after your number : 141
31 Value Error : left only 0 can be a length. You must put an unit after your number : 596
31 Value Error : top only 0 can be a length. You must put an unit after your number : 2
31 Value Error : width only 0 can be a length. You must put an unit after your number : 306
31 Value Error : height only 0 can be a length. You must put an unit after your number : 194
31 Value Error : left only 0 can be a length. You must put an unit after your number : 596
31 Value Error : top only 0 can be a length. You must put an unit after your number : 337
31 Value Error : width only 0 can be a length. You must put an unit after your number : 306
31 Value Error : height only 0 can be a length. You must put an unit after your number : 227
31 Value Error : left only 0 can be a length. You must put an unit after your number : 596
31 Value Error : top only 0 can be a length. You must put an unit after your number : 523
31 Value Error : width only 0 can be a length. You must put an unit after your number : 306
31 Value Error : height only 0 can be a length. You must put an unit after your number : 227
31 Value Error : left only 0 can be a length. You must put an unit after your number : 153
31 Value Error : top only 0 can be a length. You must put an unit after your number : 643
31 Value Error : width only 0 can be a length. You must put an unit after your number : 267
31 Value Error : height only 0 can be a length. You must put an unit after your number : 108
32 Value Error : left only 0 can be a length. You must put an unit after your number : 36
32 Value Error : top only 0 can be a length. You must put an unit after your number : 165
32 Value Error : width only 0 can be a length. You must put an unit after your number : 500
32 Value Error : height only 0 can be a length. You must put an unit after your number : 34
36 Value Error : left only 0 can be a length. You must put an unit after your number : 47
36 Value Error : top only 0 can be a length. You must put an unit after your number : 202
36 Value Error : width only 0 can be a length. You must put an unit after your number : 470
36 Value Error : height only 0 can be a length. You must put an unit after your number : 70
43 Value Error : left only 0 can be a length. You must put an unit after your number : 73
43 Value Error : top only 0 can be a length. You must put an unit after your number : 276
43 Value Error : width only 0 can be a length. You must put an unit after your number : 444
43 Value Error : height only 0 can be a length. You must put an unit after your number : 270
44 Value Error : left only 0 can be a length. You must put an unit after your number : 63
44 Value Error : top only 0 can be a length. You must put an unit after your number : 545
44 Value Error : width only 0 can be a length. You must put an unit after your number : 448
44 Value Error : height only 0 can be a length. You must put an unit after your number : 85

Kiril
12-02-2008, 03:17 PM
You've got a really f'd up personality and you could have passed along a lot of info very easily. Instead you choose to be a completly pompus....

Sorry man, but I don't give handouts to people who have no desire to even take the first step in helping themselves. I already helped you earlier in this thread. My answers get short when I realize the person asking the question is looking for a handout without first doing some simple legwork.

Your one of the open source fanatics.

You have something against Open Source? The software your hosting service is running is more likely than not Open Source.

Everything else sucks

No, but if there is an equivalent open source alternative, why should I pay for something I can get for free? If you want to throw away money, I have a paypal account you can send it too.


BTW, for those errors you cut and paste, is the message not clear what needs to be fixed? It gives you a line number and what needs to be done to fix the error. What else do you need to know?

TPnTX
12-02-2008, 03:25 PM
everything you state is way too off base here man. what a piece of work.

I'm going to attempt to scrape you off my shoe. Somehow I get the feeling it aint gonna work.

Kiril
12-02-2008, 03:34 PM
everything you state is way too off base here man. what a piece of work.

:laugh: You have enough time to continue dodging the issue and make childish posts, but you can't find the time to learn how to edit your CSS. :wall

TPnTX
12-02-2008, 04:31 PM
whoa, didn't get it all. Still some crap on my shoe.

TXNSLighting
12-02-2008, 04:58 PM
Ha!!!!!!!!

TXNSLighting
12-02-2008, 05:00 PM
Hey kiril whats wrong with my sites? www.majesticcustomoutdoors.com www.texasnightscapes.com

The second was done by some one who knows what theyre doing...and I did the first one. I dont think its to bad.

TPnTX
12-02-2008, 09:25 PM
RYAN! :) stop it.

TPnTX
12-02-2008, 09:33 PM
oh wait yours isn't phu.q compliant.

Kiril
12-02-2008, 09:58 PM
Hey kiril whats wrong with my sites? www.majesticcustomoutdoors.com www.texasnightscapes.com

The second was done by some one who knows what theyre doing...and I did the first one. I dont think its to bad.

For those sites, I give you my now standard cut and paste response.


1) Code is not valid. Please validate!!

HTML: http://validator.w3.org/
CSS: http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/

2) Mixture of hardcoded style, inline style, and linked style is a NIGHTMARE.
Separation of style and content is the recommended way to maintain your code.

3) Limited or no document structure/outline

http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/html-spec/html-spec_5.html

4) Limited or no accessibility compliance

WCAG & Sec508: http://www.cynthiasays.com/fulloptions.asp



BTW, many consider passing the session ID in the URI to be a security risk (second site)

TXNSLighting
12-03-2008, 01:40 AM
For those sites, I give you my now standard cut and paste response.


1) Code is not valid. Please validate!!

HTML: http://validator.w3.org/
CSS: http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/

2) Mixture of hardcoded style, inline style, and linked style is a NIGHTMARE.
Separation of style and content is the recommended way to maintain your code.

3) Limited or no document structure/outline

http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/html-spec/html-spec_5.html

4) Limited or no accessibility compliance

WCAG & Sec508: http://www.cynthiasays.com/fulloptions.asp



BTW, many consider passing the session ID in the URI to be a security risk (second site)

:hammerhead::hammerhead::hammerhead: :dizzy: :dizzy:

TXNSLighting
12-03-2008, 01:40 AM
RYAN! :) stop it.


Im sorry i cant help it!!:waving:

Turboguy
12-03-2008, 12:02 PM
If I wanted to fix my code I'd learn HTML. I don't want to learn HTML I want to act stupid and look smart :)

Really what is CSS and can I download a fix?

You got two browsers. IE and Firefox. Anything else statistically isn't worth the effort. lol I'm just yanking your chain.

CSS stands for Cascading Style Sheets. Originally sites were done in HTML. The idea of CSS is that you use the HTML to give your site content and the CSS to give it the style or look you want.

One of the big advantages of using CSS is that you can set your style one time in the home page and then apply it to all the pages in your website so all the colors, font styles, font colors and sizes are standard and you don't have to do it for each page.

Basically you can do a lot more to create an attractive consistant web site using CSS with a lot less work.

For those who want to take the time to learn HTML, XHTML and CSS I would highly recommend the book Head First HTML by Freeman. It is easy reading and one of the best books on software I have read.

Team-Green L&L
12-03-2008, 12:08 PM
Please don't be mad for my blatant statement here, but this needs to be said. You guys know how aggravating it is to talk to a homeowner about landscaping when they don't know what they are talking about. How about when they build a some piss-poor wall that they think is GREAT?

Well that's about what a website looks like to someone who knows what they are looking for when it's built by someone who doesn't. Kind of like a wall built by a homeowner...even though they think it's great we know better and so do a lot of passer-by's.

TPnTX
12-03-2008, 03:06 PM
You left out a crucial step

So go to this homeowner and start calling out code violations using acronyms and numbers all of which zoom right over his head.

And when he attempts to have a self degrading humorous conversation with you in an effort to disarm an otherwise uncomfortable situation, just ignore him and insist he Please build walls compliant with building codes and continuing to ignore everything else.

When you realize you have achieved your underlying motive, which is by then clear to everyone, continue to aggravate the situation to the extent you piss off the home owner and he asks you to please leave.

Then go to the next homeowner and do the same thing. (I've got PM'd) on this.

TPnTX
12-03-2008, 03:13 PM
another portion of that analogy, which i do appreciate BTW, is the owner never really built a "wall" he doesn't know how. What he did was buy a kit from Home depot. It only looks like wall. So here comes an expert who begins to tell the home owner that his wall is non-compliant. The home owner should have said "no shet"

Team-Green L&L
12-03-2008, 05:29 PM
another portion of that analogy, which i do appreciate BTW, is the owner never really built a "wall" he doesn't know how. What he did was buy a kit from Home depot. It only looks like wall. So here comes an expert who begins to tell the home owner that his wall is non-compliant. The home owner should have said "no shet"

Very good point, but it doesn't change the fact that the wall will fail under stressful conditions. Your website, if successful, should see enough traffic that it needs to be compliant.

When IE9 is released there will be a whole lot of websites being redesigned (a lot like the end of asbestos) due to non-compliance.

W3C is ran by the man who invented the world wide web to begin with, so they call the shots. They make the set of rules that the search engines follow. That means that it is important to do it right or not to do it at all in this scenario.

If you build a house that doesn't pass code what happens?

Team-Green L&L
12-03-2008, 05:32 PM
So go to this homeowner and start calling out code violations using acronyms and numbers all of which zoom right over his head.

And when he attempts to have a self degrading humorous conversation with you in an effort to disarm an otherwise uncomfortable situation, just ignore him and insist he Please build walls compliant with building codes and continuing to ignore everything else.

When you realize you have achieved your underlying motive, which is by then clear to everyone, continue to aggravate the situation to the extent you piss off the home owner and he asks you to please leave.


This one is good and lord knows I've done that before. I hope I'm not doing that now, but the biggest difference in paid information and free information is the money, which will make us do all kinds of attitude changing.

TPnTX
12-03-2008, 05:52 PM
its all good.

the last part of this analogy which I convieniently left out was that the home owner is a major smart-ass.

Speaking of websites and all that. I got an email yesterday from a bid I did in early november saying that I have got the job. It's 415 condominums. Yippie!...I think...

I get another email from the HOA president today but this time it's to: "group" which is all residents and she invites them to my website.

So I may be eating a little crow here. During the election this whole neighborhood had Obama signs out. Great, probably a bunch of open source fanatics :) For some reason I tie those together.

So... I got a ton of CSS errors. Most of it appears that there is no unit specification after a value. Like I mentioned earlier and need to test this, if I go in and manually fix all that and the next time I modify/save that page via sitebuilder I hope it doesn't "compile to use the term" and undo everything.


Earlier you wrote "W3C is ran by the man who invented the world wide web to begin with"

man that Al Gore gets around doesn't he.

Team-Green L&L
12-03-2008, 06:32 PM
Earlier you wrote "W3C is ran by the man who invented the world wide web to begin with"

man that Al Gore gets around doesn't he.

LOL! Tim Berners-Lee is actually the inventor of the world wide web. It is an ubran legend that Al Gore said he was in a speech, but his words were misinterpreted. He did something for the internet, but it certainly wasn't the invention.

The CSS errors need to be fixed, but don't get too twisted about them because I very rarely find sites that are valid at this time. I just really encourage you to address them before you forget.

Please read this article. http://www.evolt.org/w3c-compliance-and-seo