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puppypaws
10-15-2008, 06:13 PM
I am going to tell it the way it is, and I have owned Hustler Super Z's for several years.

I have the Bad Boy AOS diesel sitting at my house, and I have been running it for about 30 minutes in the roughest areas I mow. I am talking about small washed out areas where water runs down the slope that makes you feel like you are hitting waves in the ocean. This is an area I pull the speed down on a Super Z with flex forks and flex seat. Most all zero turn mowers would beat you teeth out of your head in this area. I went through the area at full stick just to see if I could stay in the seat and I did not come close to bouncing up, I absolutely could not believe it and no one else would unless they did it themselves. There will be more people than myself running it tommorrow and I will come back with their comparison.

I knew the Bad Boy AOS diesel was a good bit heavier than the Lightning model I ran in the same area. I was totally shocked that the BB AOS rode better than the Hustler Super Z because the Lightning model did not.

The BB AOS is a hoss of a mower, the extra weight on the AOS actually makes the 4 wheel torsion rubber suspension work better. The Lightning model has the same suspension but does not force the torsion rubber to work because it is not heavy enough to compress the rubber. This make the bumps jar the operator more, where the AOS being so much heavier makes the rubber compress and work the way it was design.

The Lightning model actually needs a lighter rubber composition because it is not heavy enough to activate the same suspension setup as the AOS due to weight.

I put the AOS and the Super Z side by side for a speed comparison, both say they will mow at 15 mph. I was running the AOS beside my Super Z in a waterway about 700' long with a slight uphill slope (very slight). We ran the mowers up the slope and the AOS was a little over 1 mower length in front, we turned around and started off side by side and at the end going down slope the Hustler was 1/2 mower length in front. We can all say the speed is exactly the same.

The 28 hp Cat is affected by speed and heavier growth, the rpm's would drop noticeably, the same as my 28 efi Kohler would. The 32 Vanguard I ran on the Lightning model did not change sounds in anything but 30"+ tall signal grass.
This is a 72" deck on the AOS while the Lightning was 60". I will tell you the 35 Vanguard will blow your mind with the amount of power it has. When my dealer was at the factory last week the BB people were telling him the big block Vanguard was unstoppable and the only difference in the way the 35 Cat handled the AOS differently was it used less fuel.

I will say the Super Z is still the best handling mower I have ever operated, but the AOS does ride a little better with the additional weight.

TNT LawnCare Inc.
10-15-2008, 08:39 PM
Puppypaws ,i appreciate all the time you put in demoing these mowers in different conditions.

But who is mowing 30 inches plus tall grass :laugh: and full sticking it into a areas that make you feel like your hitting the Ocean.:laugh:

No pune intended pupster i think your Crazy Funny :blob2:Dude LOL

Apples
10-15-2008, 09:28 PM
Do you like the cut of the mower?

puppypaws
10-15-2008, 10:01 PM
Puppypaws ,i appreciate all the time you put in demoing these mowers in different conditions.

But who is mowing 30 inches plus tall grass :laugh: and full sticking it into a areas that make you feel like your hitting the Ocean.:laugh:

No pune intended pupster i think your Crazy Funny :blob2:Dude LOL

The only way you can tell what a mower will do is put it in the worst case scenario. They are all pretty well equal cutting an inch off 4" grass at 5 mph. I guess you realize people cut in all type conditions, some may want to cut 30" tall grass, most may not, some cut when it is wet some do not. A large number of people would like to mow at a faster speed but can't stay in their mower seat. Speed is where your productivity and fuel savings happens to be.

People mowing postage stamp lawns aren't interested in a mower of this caliber to begin with. That is possibly why mowing in different conditions does not interest you, it could be you only need a push reel mower.

I can also tell you have never run the ocean in a fishing boat very much, if any, or you could comprehend the example concerning roughness in certain seas.

No "pune" intended toward you, but I actually think you were attempting to spell "pun."

puppypaws
10-15-2008, 10:09 PM
Do you like the cut of the mower?

The cut was good to have 10 hrs. on the blades. I will know more tomorrow, we are going to run a new 61" Woods with a 33, the AOS BB and the Super Z.

I can tell you the AOS BB is a tremendous amount of mower for the money. I personally don't have use for the diesels, the 35 Vanguard A/C is a horse of an engine for a lot less money and no fooling with a water pump, radiator, coolant and hoses.

Razorblades
10-16-2008, 01:14 AM
The cut was good to have 10 hrs. on the blades. I will know more tomorrow, we are going to run a new 61" Woods with a 33, the AOS BB and the Super Z.

I can tell you the AOS BB is a tremendous amount of mower for the money. I personally don't have use for the diesels, the 35 Vanguard A/C is a horse of an engine for a lot less money and no fooling with a water pump, radiator, coolant and hoses.

I'm guessing that the Woods 61" mower that you're going to try is the one that Tomberlawns just bought. Anyway, I would be interested to hear how you think that the 33 Generac compares powerwise to the 35 Vanguard. I know it's not an exact comparison because of them being on different brands of mowers with decks that might be different in regards to how effective and efficient they are at discharging the clippings at speed. If you can, will you pay particular attention to the performance of the Generac engine and your thoughts on it. Thanks, Razorblades.

puppypaws
10-16-2008, 02:06 AM
I'm guessing that the Woods 61" mower that you're going to try is the one that Tomberlawns just bought. Anyway, I would be interested to hear how you think that the 33 Generac compares powerwise to the 35 Vanguard. I know it's not an exact comparison because of them being on different brands of mowers with decks that might be different in regards to how effective and efficient they are at discharging the clippings at speed. If you can, will you pay particular attention to the performance of the Generac engine and your thoughts on it. Thanks, Razorblades.

I will already tell you the 33 Generac is strong, you may find this interesting.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0FZX/is_7_71/ai_n14838962

mag360
10-16-2008, 02:32 AM
I felt the 28 cat was a little low on power as well. RPM's pull down easy.

I was mowing down about 2 acres of grass ranging from 10 to 48 inches (thistle) in height today with our oldest machine---the trusty '01 turf tiger 25/61 and would have liked a little more power to the deck. It did the trick though, that thing won't die no matter what we put it through.

retrodog
10-16-2008, 09:11 AM
I felt the 28 cat was a little low on power as well. RPM's pull down easy.

I was mowing down about 2 acres of grass ranging from 10 to 48 inches (thistle) in height today with our oldest machine---the trusty '01 turf tiger 25/61 and would have liked a little more power to the deck. It did the trick though, that thing won't die no matter what we put it through.

The 35 72 is our biggest seller in the diesel line, most people that want a 60" deck go with the 28hp cat, although I know alot of people running a 27hp gasser on a 72" deck and claim its plenty of power, the 28 diesel has way more torque. For the $900 more price point, its usually pretty easy to talk people up to the 4 cylinder.

puppypaws
10-16-2008, 06:21 PM
The 35 72 is our biggest seller in the diesel line, most people that want a 60" deck go with the 28hp cat, although I know alot of people running a 27hp gasser on a 72" deck and claim its plenty of power, the 28 diesel has way more torque. For the $900 more price point, its usually pretty easy to talk people up to the 4 cylinder.

I would say the 35 Vanguard is so powerful that a person operating either engine on the AOS could not tell the difference between the Vanguard and the 35 Cat. The diesels are more fuel efficient but if nothing pulls the power down on either engine, I personally don't want the hassle of L/C maintenance.

I was running the 28 this afternoon and watching the temperature gage and within a few minutes of not looking at the temperature an alarm went off. I will promise it will get your attention and the mower stopped. The oil light was on, and I said to myself this mower is not low in oil, I then glanced at the temperature and it had climbed high enough to activate the alarm. I looked at the radiator and could see why the heat crept up. I took a blower and cleaned the radiator good and blew everything else on the mower really good, cranked it up ane the temperature gage fell immediately.

I ran a 33 hp Generac on a woods mower this afternoon in the same place grass was big enough to kill the 28 Cat. The Generac never changed sounds and the 28 Cat was in a constant struggle.

There were some other people that ran these mowers and will probably come in and talk about the power difference.

timber132007
10-16-2008, 10:05 PM
What about the extra 20ft/lbs. of torque the 35hp Cat diesel has versus the 35hp Vanguard? I have two 72" Lazer Z XS mowers with 35hp Vanguards and they will bog a little in really thick grass. I could see the possibility of not slowing the 35hp Vanguard down on a 60" deck, but I have done it with a 72" deck. It would be interesting to see how the 35hp Cat stacks up versus the 35hp Vanguard on 72" machines in tall thick grass. If the deck on each mower was able to properly handle the high volume of clippings I don't see how the Vanguard could keep up with the torque of the 35hp Cat diesel. Maybe someone with a 35hp Cat 72" mower could chime in as to whether they have noticed power being pulled down in tall thick grass. I've always wondered at what point does engine power become irrelevant due to the limitations of the deck handling high volumes of clippings?

Razorblades
10-16-2008, 10:05 PM
Hey Puppy paws, Could you tell much difference in the power of the Generac compared to what you remember about the 35Vanguard? Were there any other differences between them that you noticed?

TMlawncare
10-16-2008, 10:22 PM
Hey Puppy paws, Could you tell much difference in the power of the Generac compared to what you remember about the 35Vanguard? Were there any other differences between them that you noticed?


Keep one thing in mind about buying a Generac, they do have a lot of power but they also use a ton of gas. Many Dixie chopper owners sold their machines because of that reason alone. We had one for a week and it burned 2.5 gallons per hour on average. Thats almost twice the consumption of a similiar sized Kawasaki. With this being known, a Generac is one engine I can't afford to own.

puppypaws
10-16-2008, 10:49 PM
Hey Puppy paws, Could you tell much difference in the power of the Generac compared to what you remember about the 35Vanguard? Were there any other differences between them that you noticed?

No, I have never heard the big block Vanguard change sounds on a 60" deck, and I never heard the 33 Generac change sounds on a 61" deck.

The grass was so big and thick, and I was moving full stick trying to pull it down that it could not cut 100% of the grass. You could slow it down and it cut very good but I was pushing to see what it would take. I actually was shaking my head in disbelief as I was watching what went through the deck. The Generac acted as though it did not realize it was suppose to be straining at least a little in those conditions.

What about the extra 20ft/lbs. of torque the 35hp Cat diesel has versus the 35hp Vanguard? I have two 72" Lazer Z XS mowers with 35hp Vanguards and they will bog a little in really thick grass. I could see the possibility of not slowing the 35hp Vanguard down on a 60" deck, but I have done it with a 72" deck. It would be interesting to see how the 35hp Cat stacks up versus the 35hp Vanguard on 72" machines in tall thick grass. If the deck on each mower was able to properly handle the high volume of clippings I don't see how the Vanguard could keep up with the torque of the 35hp Cat diesel. Maybe someone with a 35hp Cat 72" mower could chime in as to whether they have noticed power being pulled down in tall thick grass. I've always wondered at what point does engine power become irrelevant due to the limitations of the deck handling high volumes of clippings?

The 35 Cat naturally has to be more powerful than a 35 gas but I personally have not had the chance to try the gas model on a 72" deck. I will say this, the BB deck gets the grass out and away from it better than any I have seen. This could be the reason the 35 Vanguard would not drop rpm's even on the 72" BB deck over the design and ability of Lazer Z XS to move the grass out as well as the very deep larger dicharge opening of the BB deck. I am only giving an opinion, this is not something I have experienced.

Razorblades
10-16-2008, 10:51 PM
Keep one thing in mind about buying a Generac, they do have a lot of power but they also use a ton of gas. Many Dixie chopper owners sold their machines because of that reason alone. We had one for a week and it burned 2.5 gallons per hour on average. Thats almost twice the consumption of a similiar sized Kawasaki. With this being known, a Generac is one engine I can't afford to own.

My mower has a 32 HP Generac engine on it. It is a Lastec with a 61" deck. I've checked it quite often and with std lift blades in normal growth grass, it uses 1.6- 1.65 GPH, with high lift blades it avgs about 1.75 GPH,,and with the 3" wide super high Lifts it avgs about 1.8 GPH and in thick heavy Bahia about 2.0 GPH. It also doesn't use any oil between changes. It has about 275 hrs on it now. I'm very satisfied with mine and was just interested in Puppy paws, or anyone else's comparisons between the 2 engines. I don't know about the newest Kohlers (34-40 HP) engines fuel usage but i've read some reports of the 37 HP Kaw. using about 2 GPH and I've seen reviews of the Big Block Vanguards using anywhere from 1.5 - 2.0 GPH. So I don't think that my engine uses much more, if any than the other carbuerated brands of Big Block type V-twins. I've also read that the 2008 and up Generac's have a more fuel efficient carb than the older ones. Mine is a 2006 model. I'm not saying that the Dixie Chopper that you used for a week didn't burn as much fuel as you said, but I know how much mine has been using for the last year and a half that i've had it. Razorblades.

Razorblades
10-16-2008, 10:59 PM
Keep one thing in mind about buying a Generac, they do have a lot of power but they also use a ton of gas. Many Dixie chopper owners sold their machines because of that reason alone. We had one for a week and it burned 2.5 gallons per hour on average. Thats almost twice the consumption of a similiar sized Kawasaki. With this being known, a Generac is one engine I can't afford to own.

I also wanted to know which Kawasaki engine in the 30+ HP range are you referring to tha used nearly half as much gas as the Generac engine? Or were you talking about the 27 HP Generac engine and similar sized Kawasaki engines? Thanks, Razorblades.

puppypaws
10-16-2008, 11:12 PM
Do you like the cut of the mower?

I was cutting fescue and wild grasses at a lower cutting height 2 3/4" than most people cut. The grass is slowing down considerably because of longer nights and shorter days. I cut it close to give it a very neat appearance this late in the year.

I will say the height I was cutting the 72" Bad Boy deck gave a perfect cut. I did not see one sprig of anything left standing, and I was running 15 mph the largest majority of the time. The 72" deck gave a much better cut with zero scalping than the 60" I ran for 30 hrs. Don't ask me why, because I have absolutely no idea why this should be the case. The 72" never attempted to scalp anything, anywhere, and I put it in a great deal of varied terrain.

The electric deck is very nice on the BB mowers, but many times I wanted to use the foot assist, I did not have, so I would stop, raise the deck, change positions and reset again. With the foot assist, I hardly slow down in these type areas.

My mower has a 32 HP Generac engine on it. It is a Lastec with a 61" deck. I've checked it quite often and with std lift blades in normal growth grass, it uses 1.6- 1.65 GPH, with high lift blades it avgs about 1.75 GPH,,and with the 3" wide super high Lifts it avgs about 1.8 GPH and in thick heavy Bahia about 2.0 GPH. It also doesn't use any oil between changes. It has about 275 hrs on it now. I'm very satisfied with mine and was just interested in Puppy paws, or anyone else's comparisons between the 2 engines. I don't know about the newest Kohlers (34-40 HP) engines fuel usage but i've read some reports of the 37 HP Kaw. using about 2 GPH and I've seen reviews of the Big Block Vanguards using anywhere from 1.5 - 2.0 GPH. So I don't think that my engine uses much more, if any than the other carbuerated brands of Big Block type V-twins. I've also read that the 2008 and up Generac's have a more fuel efficient carb than the older ones. Mine is a 2006 model. I'm not saying that the Dixie Chopper that you used for a week didn't burn as much fuel as you said, but I know how much mine has been using for the last year and a half that i've had it. Razorblades.

I will say this also, the Generac cranked as good or better than any carburetor type engine I have seen and as good as my efi. The Kawasakis or Kohlers I have owned and the Vanguard; I have run did not crank nearly as good as the 33 Generac did today.

Razorblades
10-16-2008, 11:19 PM
No, I have never heard the big block Vanguard change sounds on a 60" deck, and I never heard the 33 Generac change sounds on a 61" deck.

The grass was so big and thick, and I was moving full stick trying to pull it down that it could not cut 100% of the grass. You could slow it down and it cut very good but I was pushing to see what it would take. I actually was shaking my head in disbelief as I was watching what went through the deck. The Generac acted as though it did not realize it was suppose to be straining at least a little in those conditions.



The 35 Cat naturally has to be more powerful than a 35 gas but I personally have not had the chance to try the gas model on a 72" deck. I will say this, the BB deck gets the grass out and away from it better than any I have seen. This could be the reason the 35 Vanguard would not drop rpm's even on the 72" BB deck over the design and ability of Lazer Z XS to move the grass out as well as the very deep larger dicharge opening of the BB deck. I am only giving an opinion, this is not something I have experienced.

My neighbor and his son went together and bought a 2008 Bad Boy AOS with the 35 Vanguard and the 72" deck. They have about 15 acres to mow between the two of them. They were using a Gravely 262 (with a 72" deck on it) before that. They really like it so far. They said that it did use alot of gas and that in some heavy, thick grass that they did have to slow down some because of the engine rpm's dropping. I tried it out and I liked it pretty well. It doesn't cut the uneven ground as well as my Lastec does but it doesn't dip as much as the Gravely did when turning and changing directions. One thing that I noticed immediaely about the Bad Boy was that when you had the steering levers fwd most of the way, you couldn't rest your arms on the armrests of the seat. I didn't see any way to adjust them either. This neighbor that i'm talking about actually wanted to get a Lastec with the 29 Kaw DFI but his son runs the mower faster and wanted the Bad Boy because of the extra 2-3 mph speed.

nosparkplugs
10-16-2008, 11:23 PM
I will be able to answer these questions here in the next week, I'm finalizing the Lease purchase paperwork on the Bad Boy AOS diesel 35hp Cat 72" deck, and (ACS) advance shoot system, going to take delivery next weekend from our friend Retrodog. This AOS 35hp Cat will be used on Pipe line right of way mowing, wide area's, Athletic fields, large estate's.

The 35hp Air cooled vangaurd is a poor mans 35hp Cat diesel, it's only advantage lies in lower initial cost.
The diesel engine produces all it's torque at a lower RPM, vs a gasoline. Diesel engine is thermally more efficient than gasoline. This is because at TDC on a diesel engine the fuel is injected, and self ignites, producing combustion, transfering enormous torque throughout the whole down stroke.

A gasoline engine must first introduce air/fuel mixture into the combustion chamber then compress it, and finally the spark:laugh:

puppypaws
10-16-2008, 11:45 PM
I will be able to answer these questions here in the next week, I'm finalizing the Lease purchase paperwork on the Bad Boy AOS diesel 35hp Cat 72" deck, and (ACS) advance shoot system, going to take delivery next weekend from our friend Retrodog. This AOS 35hp Cat will be used on Pipe line right of way mowing, wide area's, Athletic fields, large estate's.

The 35hp Air cooled vangaurd is a poor mans 35hp Cat diesel, it's only advantage lies in lower initial cost.
The diesel engine produces all it's torque at a lower RPM, vs a gasoline. Diesel engine is thermally more efficient than gasoline. This is because at TDC on a diesel engine the fuel is injected, and self ignites, producing combustion, transfering enormous torque throughout the whole down stroke.

A gasoline engine must first introduce air/fuel mixture into the combustion chamber then compress it, and finally the spark:laugh:

You will be amazed at how well that machine rides, the extra weight really makes a difference in how the torsion rubber suspension performs.

puppypaws
10-17-2008, 08:52 PM
I got a little more information today from Bad Boy. I was told there is absolutely no comparison between the 3 cylinder 28 hp Cat and the 4 cylinder 35 hp Cat in the AOS model mower.

The statement was actually made that they really hated to offer the 28 because the 35 was so far ahead. They are speaking of the 28 being much rougher running with a great deal more vibration, while the 35 sits there and purrs like a kitten. The power difference is tremendous, a great deal more than 7 hp would have you believe.

Let's hear what you think the price of the 35 Cat is from BB, engine alone?
You may be surprised, then again you may not be!

nosparkplugs
10-17-2008, 09:56 PM
I got a little more information today from Bad Boy. I was told there is absolutely no comparison between the 3 cylinder 28 hp Cat and the 4 cylinder 35 hp Cat in the AOS model mower.

The statement was actually made that they really hated to offer the 28 because the 35 was so far ahead. They are speaking of the 28 being much rougher running with a great deal more vibration, while the 35 sits there and purrs like a kitten. The power difference is tremendous, a great deal more than 7 hp would have you believe.

Let's hear what you think the price of the 35 Cat is from BB, engine alone?
You may be surprised, then again you may not be!

$6,756 Ballpark figure for the 35hp Cat diesel

puppypaws
10-17-2008, 10:06 PM
$6,756 Ballpark figure for the 35hp Cat diesel

I would like to hear some other guesses, before I say what I was told by the factory.

lawnrangernc
10-17-2008, 10:21 PM
I have a Bad Boy AOS with the 35hp Cat and just as a previous post stated there really is no comparison between the 28hp and the 35hp the 35hp puts out a ton of power the engine is smooth with no vibration thanks to the 4 cylinders in my own opinion there is no gas motor than can compare to it i know one thing I will never buy another air cooled gas motor ever again no matter what their power claims are.

nosparkplugs
10-17-2008, 10:22 PM
Cat has underated the 35hp Cat diesel, Caterpillar Model: C1.6:laugh:; which is rated for up to 65hp depending on fueling, and some applications have turbocharging. I had $15,000 dollars to purchase a diesel ZTR with, and the BB AOS 35hp Cat diesel, is the best diesel ZTR on the market dollar for dollar plus the bragging rights, Scag should be ashamed for only offering the 28hp cat for $15,000 dollars. I am excited that I opted to go aganist the "grain" on this purchase. Here's one for the "underdog" I just added to Bad Boys AOS diesel sales bottom line this year:usflag:


http://www.cat.com/cda/components/securedFile/displaySecuredFileServletJSP?fileId=226579&languageId=7

timber132007
10-17-2008, 10:23 PM
Around $5,000?

Razorblades
10-17-2008, 10:29 PM
I'm guessing about $5975.53 ----approx!

retrodog
10-17-2008, 10:33 PM
The Cat 35hp 4 cylinder C 1.6 engine retails for $6800. I am looking at the pricing right now. The 28hp retails for $6300

puppypaws
10-18-2008, 12:37 AM
The Cat 35hp 4 cylinder C 1.6 engine retails for $6800. I am looking at the pricing right now. The 28hp retails for $6300

I wonder how there can only be $500.00 difference in 2 engines that would perform thousands of dollars apart.

BB said $6500.00 for the 35 Cat.

My dealer came personally and picked up his mower late this afternoon and asked me what I thought. I said, "you remember when I ran the Lightning and told you the BB would have a place in today's market, and you should pick up their line." He said "yes" and I told him he did the right thing.

I told him the 28 Cat needed more power at times and made a great deal of noise along with too much vibration. I then said, "BB told me there was no comparison between the 3 cylinder 28 and the 4 cylinder 35 in power and smoothness, they said the 35 purred like a kitten." He then said; he did not realize the 35 was a 4 cylinder until I told him.

I told him I was really impressed with the 72" deck in the way it cut and handled. I said "I cut the ditches and road banks you saw coming in, and it handled better to me than the 60" BB Lightning I ran cutting the same areas".
I said "it really surprised me getting into the ditch bottoms on steep banks with no scalping, I never saw anywhere it even attempted to scalp on any terrain."

TomberLawn
10-19-2008, 01:02 AM
I've been kind of busy and haven't had a chance to reply to this, but I was at puppypaws' place Thursday and ran the Bad Boy, his Super Z, and my Woods.

The Bad Boy was very disappointing power wise. Even with less than half the deck width actually cutting grass, it would lug down to the point I was afraid it would stall. I definitely do not recommend this engine with the 72" deck.

The mower did ride pretty well, but it didn't handle well at all. I think the weight of the engine made it slow to react, so when I was turning, it felt like it was understeering really bad. After running my Woods and the Super Z, the Bad Boy certainly left more to be desired. Smooth ride, yes, accurate control, no. It also felt light on the front because of the heavy engine. Going up a hill, it felt uncomfortable. When changing direction, from reverse to forward, the front end would pop up very easily.

After mowing for a while with the AOS, I noticed the back tires were toed out. puppypaws, did you ask the dealer about that when he picked the mower up?

I guess the Bad Boy does have a place in the market, but for now, not on my trailer. Certainly not the 28hp Cat. Maybe the other ones handle better and have better power. I'd like to try a Vanguard and see what a lighter, more powerful Bad Boy feels like. I'm very pleased with my Woods right now, though. It's fast, powerful, and rides and cuts good. As far as fuel usage, I'll know more once I run one tank dry and compare it to the hour meter. It's got 5 hours on it, and I haven't emptied one tank yet, which holds 7 gallons. The mower had 1.6 hours when I filled it up, so in 3.4 hours, it's used well under 7 gallons. Probably 5 or less, which would put fuel usage at less than 1.5 gallons an hour. That's acceptable, especially considering how much grass it's mowing with that 1.5 gallons.

nosparkplugs
10-19-2008, 01:05 AM
I've been kind of busy and haven't had a chance to reply to this, but I was at puppypaws' place Thursday and ran the Bad Boy, his Super Z, and my Woods.

The Bad Boy was very disappointing power wise. Even with less than half the deck width actually cutting grass, it would lug down to the point I was afraid it would stall. I definitely do not recommend this engine with the 72" deck.

The mower did ride pretty well, but it didn't handle well at all. I think the weight of the engine made it slow to react, so when I was turning, it felt like it was understeering really bad. After running my Woods and the Super Z, the Bad Boy certainly left more to be desired. Smooth ride, yes, accurate control, no. It also felt light on the front because of the heavy engine. Going up a hill, it felt uncomfortable. When changing direction, from reverse to forward, the front end would pop up very easily.

After mowing for a while with the AOS, I noticed the back tires were toed out. puppypaws, did you ask the dealer about that when he picked the mower up?

I guess the Bad Boy does have a place in the market, but for now, not on my trailer. Certainly not the 28hp Cat. Maybe the other ones handle better and have better power. I'd like to try a Vanguard and see what a lighter, more powerful Bad Boy feels like. I'm very pleased with my Woods right now, though. It's fast, powerful, and rides and cuts good. As far as fuel usage, I'll know more once I run one tank dry and compare it to the hour meter. It's got 5 hours on it, and I haven't emptied one tank yet, which holds 7 gallons. The mower had 1.6 hours when I filled it up, so in 3.4 hours, it's used well under 7 gallons. Probably 5 or less, which would put fuel usage at less than 1.5 gallons an hour. That's acceptable, especially considering how much grass it's mowing with that 1.5 gallons.

Someone is full of BS; because Puppypaws did not say the 28hp cat was underpowered, he described it much differently than you, but never lugging.

djagusch
10-19-2008, 01:13 AM
Someone is full of BS; because Puppypaws did not say the 28hp cat was underpowered, he described it much differently than you, but never lugging.

He's offering his opinion take it as you want. He never said it was puppypaws opinion.

David Gretzmier
10-19-2008, 01:24 AM
So is the price on the 35 horse cat aos with 72 15 grand, or did I understand that wrong?

Razorblades
10-19-2008, 01:30 AM
I am going to tell it the way it is, and I have owned Hustler Super Z's for several years.

I have the Bad Boy AOS diesel sitting at my house, and I have been running it for about 30 minutes in the roughest areas I mow. I am talking about small washed out areas where water runs down the slope that makes you feel like you are hitting waves in the ocean. This is an area I pull the speed down on a Super Z with flex forks and flex seat. Most all zero turn mowers would beat you teeth out of your head in this area. I went through the area at full stick just to see if I could stay in the seat and I did not come close to bouncing up, I absolutely could not believe it and no one else would unless they did it themselves. There will be more people than myself running it tommorrow and I will come back with their comparison.

I knew the Bad Boy AOS diesel was a good bit heavier than the Lightning model I ran in the same area. I was totally shocked that the BB AOS rode better than the Hustler Super Z because the Lightning model did not.

The BB AOS is a hoss of a mower, the extra weight on the AOS actually makes the 4 wheel torsion rubber suspension work better. The Lightning model has the same suspension but does not force the torsion rubber to work because it is not heavy enough to compress the rubber. This make the bumps jar the operator more, where the AOS being so much heavier makes the rubber compress and work the way it was design.

The Lightning model actually needs a lighter rubber composition because it is not heavy enough to activate the same suspension setup as the AOS due to weight.

I put the AOS and the Super Z side by side for a speed comparison, both say they will mow at 15 mph. I was running the AOS beside my Super Z in a waterway about 700' long with a slight uphill slope (very slight). We ran the mowers up the slope and the AOS was a little over 1 mower length in front, we turned around and started off side by side and at the end going down slope the Hustler was 1/2 mower length in front. We can all say the speed is exactly the same.

The 28 hp Cat is affected by speed and heavier growth, the rpm's would drop noticeably, the same as my 28 efi Kohler would. The 32 Vanguard I ran on the Lightning model did not change sounds in anything but 30"+ tall signal grass.
This is a 72" deck on the AOS while the Lightning was 60". I will tell you the 35 Vanguard will blow your mind with the amount of power it has. When my dealer was at the factory last week the BB people were telling him the big block Vanguard was unstoppable and the only difference in the way the 35 Cat handled the AOS differently was it used less fuel.

I will say the Super Z is still the best handling mower I have ever operated, but the AOS does ride a little better with the additional weight.

Nosparkplugs, In the above post, which was Puppy paws 1st post, He did say that " the 28 Cat was affected by speed and heavier growth, the rpm's would drop noticeably, the same as my 28 EFI Kohler would" I don't think that either of them are full of BS. Obviously, they each found different likes and dislikes about the mower and agreed on some of the strong points of it also.

nosparkplugs
10-19-2008, 01:40 AM
So is the price on the 35 horse cat aos with 72 15 grand, or did I understand that wrong?

No it's not BB AOS 35hp Cat diesel $12,675 plus state sales tax

nosparkplugs
10-19-2008, 01:52 AM
Nosparkplugs, In the above post, which was Puppy paws 1st post, He did say that " the 28 Cat was affected by speed and heavier growth, the rpm's would drop noticeably, the same as my 28 EFI Kohler would" I don't think that either of them are full of BS. Obviously, they each found different likes and dislikes about the mower and agreed on some of the strong points of it also.


These guys are cutting the tallest grass they can find, and writing reviews with Demo mowers, frankly they need a tractor & bushog.
None of these comparisons are truely apples to apples the 28hp Cat is running a 72" deck, and the BB lightning 32hp AC Vanguard is on a 60" deck, the 28hp Kohler EFI is on a 66" deck. Puppypaws needs to clarify this more I still call BS on these reviews. I'm sure if they demo'ed a Scag TT 28hp Cat diesel 61" deck it would be the badest mower on the planet:laugh:

Get a AOS 32hp Vanguard on a 72" deck, and put it through this crap or the AOS 35hp Cat diesel 72" deck, but even thats apples to oranges:laugh: the gas motors will run out of gas or burn up with this type of daily use, were even the 28hp cat diesel would drop in RPM, but is more suited for bushogging. We have some professional demo/farmer guys here.

Razorblades
10-19-2008, 02:11 AM
These guys are cutting the tallest grass they can find, and writing reviews with Demo mowers, frankly they need a tractor & bushog.
None of these comparisons are truely apples to apples the 28hp Cat is running a 72" deck, and the BB lightning 32hp AC Vanguard is on a 60" deck, the 28hp Kohler EFI is on a 66" deck. Puppypaws needs to clarify this more I still call BS on these reviews. I'm sure if they demo'ed a Scag TT 28hp Cat diesel 61" deck it would be the badest mower on the planet:laugh:

Get a AOS 32hp Vanguard on a 72" deck, and put it through this crap or the AOS 35hp Cat diesel 72" deck, but even thats apples to oranges:laugh: the gas motors will run out of gas or burn up with this type of daily use, were even the 28hp cat diesel would drop in RPM, but is more suited for bushogging. We have some professional demo/farmer guys here.

There seem to be some on this forum (not you) that think that if Scag builds it that it's got to be the best. While I think that Scags are well built mowers, as I figure Puppy paws and Tomberlawns do also, I bet that they haven't regretted their choices of mowers for their application, just like you and me. Would you post your Fuel usage on the 35 Cat in normal type conditions,whenever you get it broke in and the grass conditiond are right? That might not be till next spring though,huh?

nosparkplugs
10-19-2008, 02:34 AM
There seem to be some on this forum (not you) that think that if Scag builds it that it's got to be the best. While I think that Scags are well built mowers, as I figure Puppy paws and Tomberlawns do also, I bet that they haven't regretted their choices of mowers for their application, just like you and me. Would you post your Fuel usage on the 35 Cat in normal type conditions,whenever you get it broke in and the grass conditiond are right? That might not be till next spring though,huh?

I am with you on the Scags, ex Scag owner myself will never go back. I have worked hard to get to this level to afford this BB AOS 35hp Cat diesel purchase, and have spent the last 3 years researching diesel ZTR's

I feel obligated to post the postive & negative's on my new BB AOS 35hp Cat diesel. Since their is so much riding on this purchase for me.
These guys are not going to purchase a LC diesel?, and have stated their happy with big block AC gasoline engines, and their Hustler's don't match the BB deck size's vs Engines gas or diesel, to their personal ZTR's, not in the market to purchase one either. Puppypaw is a farmer or residential end user, with his personal favorite the 32hp VG BB, and drools over the 35hp Cat diesel, and yet demo's the 28hp cat diesel 72" deck, then somehow draws the 35hp diesel into this mess. while in the end happy with his Hustler.:dizzy:

The AC big blocks are the cheap answer to LC diesel's. I have ran AC gas engines and blown them up with less than 750 hours of use, fact is as CC or Liters increase so does there thermal inefficencies (heat exchange) with AC engines. These Big block Air cooled engines are pushing their design limits. They need to get out a thermal temp gauage and compare the operating temps of these AC BB VS a LC gas or diesel. As Always their cheaper intial cost, simple design, will always be appealing, and is justifable in90% of applications.

puppypaws
10-19-2008, 09:32 AM
I've been kind of busy and haven't had a chance to reply to this, but I was at puppypaws' place Thursday and ran the Bad Boy, his Super Z, and my Woods.

The Bad Boy was very disappointing power wise. Even with less than half the deck width actually cutting grass, it would lug down to the point I was afraid it would stall. I definitely do not recommend this engine with the 72" deck.

The mower did ride pretty well, but it didn't handle well at all. I think the weight of the engine made it slow to react, so when I was turning, it felt like it was understeering really bad. After running my Woods and the Super Z, the Bad Boy certainly left more to be desired. Smooth ride, yes, accurate control, no. It also felt light on the front because of the heavy engine. Going up a hill, it felt uncomfortable. When changing direction, from reverse to forward, the front end would pop up very easily.

After mowing for a while with the AOS, I noticed the back tires were toed out. puppypaws, did you ask the dealer about that when he picked the mower up?

I guess the Bad Boy does have a place in the market, but for now, not on my trailer. Certainly not the 28hp Cat. Maybe the other ones handle better and have better power. I'd like to try a Vanguard and see what a lighter, more powerful Bad Boy feels like. I'm very pleased with my Woods right now, though. It's fast, powerful, and rides and cuts good. As far as fuel usage, I'll know more once I run one tank dry and compare it to the hour meter. It's got 5 hours on it, and I haven't emptied one tank yet, which holds 7 gallons. The mower had 1.6 hours when I filled it up, so in 3.4 hours, it's used well under 7 gallons. Probably 5 or less, which would put fuel usage at less than 1.5 gallons an hour. That's acceptable, especially considering how much grass it's mowing with that 1.5 gallons.

I knew my dealer probably did not know why the rear tires toed out so I called directly to Bad Boy.

Don't ask me why, because I have never seen anything that was not toed in if expecting heavier weight to level it out putting the tires evenly on operating surfaces.

Bad Boy stated it was designed this way to help on slopes, this was my understanding from the conversation. I do not understand, but maybe someone on this site has knowledge of reasoning for that design.

I don't know if you experienced this when you were running the mower but the front wheels would shimmy to the point of having to stop and start again on a hard surface. I mowed 3/4 of a mile on the sides of the road, and each time I had to run on the asphalt this would happen. I did not slow down because I never need to with the Super Z. I asked BB about this, and they told me it was a fine line adjustment to try and prevent this problem. I don't know what the air pressure was in the front tires but this could also add to the problem along with the lighter front end.

retrodog
10-19-2008, 12:59 PM
I knew my dealer probably did not know why the rear tires toed out so I called directly to Bad Boy.

Don't ask me why, because I have never seen anything that was not toed in if expecting heavier weight to level it out putting the tires evenly on operating surfaces.

Bad Boy stated it was designed this way to help on slopes, this was my understanding from the conversation. I do not understand, but maybe someone on this site has knowledge of reasoning for that design.

I don't know if you experienced this when you were running the mower but the front wheels would shimmy to the point of having to stop and start again on a hard surface. I mowed 3/4 of a mile on the sides of the road, and each time I had to run on the asphalt this would happen. I did not slow down because I never need to with the Super Z. I asked BB about this, and they told me it was a fine line adjustment to try and prevent this problem. I don't know what the air pressure was in the front tires but this could also add to the problem along with the lighter front end.
Yeah, the front tires should be 10 to 12 psi, and if you are going to be driving down pavement alot, it is a good idea to tighten the front wheels a little. I believe the factory torques them to 35lbs, but I try to bump all of mine up to 40lbs to eliminate the wobble, no big deal they set it for turf conditions, and leave it up to us if we want to tighten them up to high speed pavement condition.

ALC-GregH
10-19-2008, 01:13 PM
"""""I knew my dealer probably did not know why the rear tires toed out so I called directly to Bad Boy.

Don't ask me why, because I have never seen anything that was not toed in if expecting heavier weight to level it out putting the tires evenly on operating surfaces.

Bad Boy stated it was designed this way to help on slopes, this was my understanding from the conversation. I do not understand, but maybe someone on this site has knowledge of reasoning for that design.""""

I don't think I'd believe that guy. Why would you toe out drive tires? That's stupid. Sounds more like a way out of a issue on BB's part. That's OK, they need guys out in the field to test them.

puppypaws
10-19-2008, 02:07 PM
I don't think I'd believe that guy. Why would you toe out drive tires? That's stupid. Sounds more like a way out of a issue on BB's part. That's OK, they need guys out in the field to test them.

I was hoping "retrodog" may have an idea, the rear tires are toed out a good amount. I don't think anything is giving but don't really understand the idea behind it.

Can you find out a little more detail on this "retrodog?"

Yeah, the front tires should be 10 to 12 psi, and if you are going to be driving down pavement alot, it is a good idea to tighten the front wheels a little. I believe the factory torques them to 35lbs, but I try to bump all of mine up to 40lbs to eliminate the wobble, no big deal they set it for turf conditions, and leave it up to us if we want to tighten them up to high speed pavement condition.

Are you saying you can completely eliminate this problem by pulling the cotter pin and tightening the nut a little more? I would personally set the pressure no more than 10 lbs. on the front, I run 8 lbs. and never had a seconds problem, it just gives a softer ride.

retrodog
10-19-2008, 02:28 PM
I was hoping "retrodog" may have an idea, the rear tires are toed out a good amount. I don't think anything is giving but don't really understand the idea behind it.

Can you find out a little more detail on this "retrodog?"



Are you saying you can completely eliminate this problem by pulling the cotter pin and tightening the nut a little more? I would personally set the pressure no more than 10 lbs. on the front, I run 8 lbs. and never had a seconds problem, it just gives a softer ride.

The lightning series and up (easy ride system only) have a \ / tilt on the back wheels and tires. It is more noticible on the AOS model due to the more weight. The idea behind this is to make the ride better, and if you notice they balance out when you sit on it. \ / goes to ! ! when sit on.

TomberLawn
10-19-2008, 03:08 PM
retro, that's about reverse of what it was actually doing. Without anybody sitting on the mower, the tires were like / \. So when you sit on it, I guess it would be even worse. It didn't look too good.

And as for nosparkplugs remarks, puppypaws and I basically agree on the power issue. We were both very disappointed. Another guy was mowing some "normal" grass with it while we watched. The engine lugged a lot. We expected it to never lug down, or at least not much.

And no, we didn't need a tractor and bush hog. I've had biweekly yards that were as tall as what we were cutting. And anyway, tough conditions show the true capabilities of a machine. I don't mow only manicured, weekly lawns. Most of my yards have weeds and rough areas, a lot of them are biweekly, and it's tough mowing. I need to demo a mower in real conditions to see what it will do, not just an open, smooth piece of beautiful turf.

Sure, I realize we were testing different size decks. And I also know this--my Woods could fly through the thickest places taking a full deck of grass. Going through the same areas with the Bad Boy, I was only using half the deck just to keep the thing from stalling. That's about 36" compared to my 61". And even with only half the deck actually cutting, I had to slow down considerably.

Everybody is entitled to an opinion. This is mine, puppypaws has expressed his, and they were pretty much the same. Don't claim I'm lying. I'm just telling you what I think based on my experience with the mower.

puppypaws
10-19-2008, 07:01 PM
I feel obligated to post the postive & negative's on my new BB AOS 35hp Cat diesel. Since their is so much riding on this purchase for me.
These guys are not going to purchase a LC diesel?, and have stated their happy with big block AC gasoline engines, and their Hustler's don't match the BB deck size's vs Engines gas or diesel, to their personal ZTR's, not in the market to purchase one either.

Puppypaw is a farmer or residential end user, with his personal favorite the 32hp VG BB, and drools over the 35hp Cat diesel, and yet demo's the 28hp cat diesel 72" deck, then somehow draws the 35hp diesel into this mess. while in the end happy with his Hustler.:dizzy:

I don't "drool" over anything, if I want something I can afford to write a check and buy it. To say my personal favorite is a 35 Vanguard (there is no 32 on the AOS) in this particular application would be true. I personally have no use for L/C mowers when A/C does the same job with less maintenance and worry. Different people have different needs, I did not set up a demo with any particular mower, if I had been I would have taken the 35 Cat not the 28. The 28 just happened to be what was on my dealers personal (which is a personal friend) mower he took to run on his farm.

I had the 28 Cat stop and the alarm go off in less than a 3 hr. run period because of maintenance that needed to be done cleaning the radiator screen. I know you say well that is not a big deal, and I will agree it is not but still takes time to take care of the problem. This is time I am not interested in wasting, the 28 efi I run has never stopped once for any reason causing downtime in 460 hrs. Like I said, has never stopped for one second for any reason, you cannot beat that type service.

I will say this, the same as I told my dealer. You can take your 35 Cat on the 72" AOS Bad Boy in normal cutting grass and I will take a 72" Hustler Super Z and cut the same amount of grass in the same amount of time in a wide open area.We can put the same 2 mowers in normal grass with objects to cut and trim around and I will take the Super Z and cut more grass in less time.

The reason for this is because the Super Z is lower profile, more nibble and manuevers quicker than the more bulky BB. The hydraulics are smoother and react quicker. You actually have to slow down and think more about how you are handling the BB around objects and tight fitting areas while the Super Z glides in and around objects in a fluid like motion.

I have experienced this, so it is not something you can argue with since you have no experience with either mower.

The 35 Cat will definitely excel in heavy cutting and bush-hogging scenarios and this will be the only places the big diesel will pay off. One of the BB personnel I spoke with said his father owned a 35 Vanguard powered AOS, and it never lacked for power. He also said his father could run any mower he wanted but had no need for the bigger diesel.

His fathers mower is for sell at this time with 40 hrs. on the meter. I asked him why he was selling it so soon, and he told me his dad just liked new mowers every year.

nosparkplugs
10-19-2008, 07:07 PM
http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff141/nosparkplugs71/M6800.jpg


When the grass on the pipe line Johnson or Signal grass gets to 5' or higher, in the past we have used the Kubota M6800 4 cylinder 3,331CC diesel Net HP 62.00, PTO HP 55.00, and a landpride 6' bushogg.

The Kubota Diesel has the EVT adjustable valving, and the RPM will rise & drop through out the day mowing, and it does lug down in the thick stuff. I general mow in the turtle gear, and 2nd or 3rd, the faster I go the more the RPM's drop period regardless.

Liquid cooled Cat Inline Diesel Engine Specs:

28hp 3 cylinder Cat diesel 1.13L 51ftlbs@2300rpm
35hp 4 cylinder Cat diesel 1.13L 70ftlbs@1800rpm

Air Cooled Gasoline V-Twin Big Blocks

Air cooled Vanguard

35hp V-Twin 993cc 50ftlbs@2600rpm
32hp V-Twin 895cc 50ftlbs@2400rpm

The air cooled engines are under a liter in displacement, and lack 1 cylinder or two cylinders depending on the diesel engine your comparing.

The torque numbers are for the 28hp Cat diesel are equal to the V-twins, so the diesel should be at least equal to the Gasoline V-Twins.

Diesel fuel is rated at 156,000BTU per gallon of fuel, were gasoline is at 135,000BTU. Diesel engine has the thermal efficiency advantage, double the compression 23:1 to 10:1 so it should perform as well minimal. The diesel clearly has it's advantage in more potent fuel, larger displacement, longer stroke and should equal any of the gasoline engines compared.

i will be taking our BB AOS 35hp Cat diesel to the pipe line right of way after the 20th, and will be able to post pictures to document our daily use.

Every dealer I visited including Scag, regardless of engine gas or diesel, made it clear these mowers are not designed to bushogg grass 5' to 10ft high:laugh:. The Kubota dealer was going to void the warranty on their ZD331 ZTR mower if I used it for right of way mowing:laugh:

i have the southern regional Dixie Chopper wholesale distributor living in my subdivision, and we finally talked at a local restaurant last week, and he said these AC big blocks can hang with the diesels, but not outperform, and do wear out quicker, but are cheaper to repair or repower. Dixie Chopper best ZTR seller is the Xcaliber with a 33hp AC Generac BB, or the new 40hp AC Kohler BB. Most guys don't want to spend the extra cash for the LC diesel; however their is a 10-20% market for these big 4 banger diesel's.

puppypaws
10-19-2008, 11:58 PM
http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff141/nosparkplugs71/M6800.jpg


Liquid cooled Cat Inline Diesel Engine Specs:

28hp 3 cylinder Cat diesel 1.13L 51ftlbs@2300rpm
35hp 4 cylinder Cat diesel 1.13L 70ftlbs@1800rpm

Air Cooled Gasoline V-Twin Big Blocks

Air cooled Vanguard

35hp V-Twin 993cc 50ftlbs@2600rpm
32hp V-Twin 895cc 50ftlbs@2400rpm

The air cooled engines are under a liter in displacement, and lack 1 cylinder or two cylinders depending on the diesel engine your comparing.

The torque numbers are for the 28hp Cat diesel are equal to the V-twins, so the diesel should be at least equal to the Gasoline V-Twins.



I will not argue the numbers and will agree it should be this way, but it is not.

The area I left on purpose for this trial was a waterway that has the same grass and weeds that would be in most areas mowed. The grass was at a height of about 10", so no it did not need a bush hog. We were taking off about 4" of growth, it stomped the 28 Cat and would pull the rpm's down to where I actually believe you could have stalled it using more speed.

I know the Woods with the 33 hp Generac had 11" less deck but it never changed sounds and I pushed it at full stick (13.5 mph) trying to make it give up. I know another foot on the deck of the Woods will cause a change but would have to say it will handle it with ease.

I guess I was expecting to much out of the 28 Cat, but it was very unimpressive and when a BB rep says he wishes they did not offer the 28 because the 35 was so much more superior, that says a lot. They told me most people opted for the 35 at the extra cost. To me personally that is a complete no brainer, who in their right mind would not give a few hundred dollars more for another cylinder and 7 more hp.

TomberLawn
10-20-2008, 12:03 AM
I like your truck and tractor, nosparkplugs. I pulled my tractor (Case IH Farmall 35) to a farm to haul some wood. Big diesel Dodge towed the thing with ease. Got to love a Cummins.

I'd like a diesel lawn mower. I know they typically do have more power and better fuel economy, plus longevity. But with diesel costing more than gas at the pump, plus the high premium you pay for the engine itself, I don't see it being very cost effective for me. A mower only lasts so long, and a good diesel engine will far outlast the mower it is sitting on. With the deal I got on my Woods, a diesel mower would have to last well past 3000 hours to break even on the higher cost with lower fuel consumption. My Generac is rated for 3000 hours anyway, has great power, and decent fuel usage.

nosparkplugs
10-20-2008, 12:20 AM
I found a formula to convert PTO HP to torque, and that tractor is torque rated at the PTO @ 82.56ftlbs the new 35hp cat diesel is 70ftlbs, so this new AOS 35hp diesel should do fine on the sections not requiring 4x4, and save me time on my other commecial accounts it was a wise investment for me, and my very first CAT diesel:laugh:. Do you guys think the Scag TT powered buy the same 28hp Cat diesel would do better in what you had the BB AOS 28hp diesel in?

puppypaws
10-20-2008, 12:48 AM
I found a formula to convert PTO HP to torque, and that tractor is torque rated at the PTO @ 82.56ftlbs the new 35hp cat diesel is 70ftlbs, so this new AOS 35hp diesel should do fine on the sections not requiring 4x4, and save me time on my other commecial accounts it was a wise investment for me, and my very first CAT diesel:laugh:. Do you guys think the Scag TT powered buy the same 28hp Cat diesel would do better in what you had the BB AOS 28hp diesel in?

No, I don't see any deck being able to get the grass out and away from the chute any faster than the BB deck. I asked BB why their deck seem to handle big or wet grass better than most, and they said it was due to the depth and baffling engineered into their deck. When I cut the 30+ tall signal grass is what really got my attention, this type grass is very sappy and will not clean out of most decks. It is very heavy because it stays moisture layden even in dry weather and anyone knows the heavier a grass is the more difficult it will be to blow out and away from the deck.

I honestly don't know why the 28 Cat seemed so weak, it feels nowhere comparable to the big block Vanguard and Generac.

Ted Bell
10-20-2008, 08:52 PM
PuppyPaws:

Have you had a chance to demo the Hustler Super Z with the 25-hp Shibaura diesel? If not, you should add it to your list.:)

I'm curious on how this would compare to the gas Zs.

puppypaws
10-20-2008, 09:25 PM
PuppyPaws:

Have you had a chance to demo the Hustler Super Z with the 25-hp Shibaura diesel? If not, you should add it to your list.:)

I'm curious on how this would compare to the gas Zs.

I never seen one, but if I had to guess I would say it should be along the same power line as the 27 Kohler with less fuel usage.

Maybe someone that has run this engine will offer some information, I would like to hear about it, myself.